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ExistentialSolid's "Please Destroy Me" Detour


ExistentialSolid

New Nomination List ~ Poll #1  

12 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of the following games would you like to see next?

    • Moon Hunters
      5
    • Attacking Zegeta 2
      5
    • GoNNer 2
      1
    • XPosed Reloaded
      0
    • Mr. Driller: DrillLand
      2


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30 minutes ago, Don_carlito94 said:

Respect for going this route. Some of the hotlaps are significantly harder without TCS. For example -> “Demon on Wheels” I personally consider as one of the harder hotlaps in the base game without TCS. Imola is a complex circuit, but with a high TCS setting you can turn this very hard hotlap into a medium difficulty hotlap because with TCS on high, you can drive over the high curbs without consequences 9/10 times as opposed to having TCS off where it requires much more precise angle of entry and throttle control - this example is just to give you a picture of the contrast. 
 

I personally never tried any of the skips and tricks for some of the hotlaps but from my observation you save quite some time with some of them, so if you don’t use any of those, you will also need to push it a notch. Examples - GRA Challenge, with skip= save around half a sec. Nordschleife hotlaps, with wall bounce and Karussell trick = save around 2 secs or maybe a little more if executed right. It will still be a tough experience regardless of these tricks. I look forward to see you write about this game once you get back to it 1f44d.png

 

Yeah that's what I'll be doing when I go back to it as I'm more used to playing that way now so will be trying to do the rest that way too. I did put in a few laps on each of the harder ones after I did one to see how far I was off after getting much better & that was the only one that I wasn't close to doing without a setup so it will probably take quite awhile to do even with a setup for it. I wasn't as far off as I expected on most of the other ones though after a few laps so that was a nice surprise but I'll definitely put up everything I do when I go back to it. I'll see what I can do.

Edited by Destructor-8
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I’m going to glance past Super Meat Boy Forever for a moment and say thank you for playing Woah Dave. 
 

Not the best of challenging indies (Even Curse n Chaos has more going for it) but it’s surprisingly addicting. Took me a long time to nail a 1000 coin run. Greenzsaber has an excellent video guide on how to do it but it still takes practice. Should be no problem for you, considering your skills and commitment. 
 

We’re about the same progress wise in Shovel Knight. I’m planning to return to that pretty soon. 
 

This is probably my favorite thread in the entire forums. Always a joy to read about your struggles and your progress. More of us should inspire to make threads like this.

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On 10/24/2021 at 6:39 PM, AJ_Radio said:

I’m going to glance past Super Meat Boy Forever for a moment and say thank you for playing Woah Dave. 
 

Not the best of challenging indies (Even Curse n Chaos has more going for it) but it’s surprisingly addicting. Took me a long time to nail a 1000 coin run. Greenzsaber has an excellent video guide on how to do it but it still takes practice. Should be no problem for you, considering your skills and commitment. 
 

We’re about the same progress wise in Shovel Knight. I’m planning to return to that pretty soon. 
 

This is probably my favorite thread in the entire forums. Always a joy to read about your struggles and your progress. More of us should inspire to make threads like this.


It's no trouble! Besides the fact that you recommended it, @S_y_n_e_IR_g_Y posted a 10 charity incentive for the next player to finish Woah Dave in the Ultra Rare Cleanup event, so I thought it would be fun to try to get it finished before the end of the year since I enjoy addicting arcade-inspired games anyway. :D   

I haven't had the time to make a serious effort at the 1000 coin run just yet, but I did get a feel for the game and knocked out all of the miscellaneous trophies in the time that I had. I'll hopefully have the time to finish it up sometime before December! 

I keep forgetting to get back to Shovel Knight. I meant to return to it when the "King of Cards" campaign released, but it dropped just a few days before I launched this thread and I haven't thought much about it since. ? After all the damage SMBF has done to my appreciation of platformers, Shovel Knight would be just what I need to remind myself why I love the genre in the first place. 

Trying to process how this thread could be one of anyone's "favorites" is something I'm never going to be able to do, but hearing it will always cheer me up. ? Thank you! 

Edited by ExistentialSolid
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Bravo man, looks like you are breezing through and currently on easy street for the pacifier cleanup!! I find it very interesting to see the different chunks you have with your runs too. We had quite a few of the same, but there were definitely a few you had I've never seen.

 

I'll be curious to know if you went for pacifiers in NG+ in the Dark Worlds too, I said screw that after struggling with 1 or 2 of them for well over an hour and just stuck to the Light Worlds after that. It required 5 playthroughs total, but I honestly felt like I'd still be trying to get them at this point, almost a week later if I had kept going for the dark worlds too! 

 

I'll be very curious to hear your overall take on it once you are through. Honestly for me, this felt 100x harder than SMB, so I find it intriguing that you think it's easier! I dunno if it's just my 37 year old waning reflexes or what ? Just to give you an idea, it took me ~12k deaths on SMB versus ~20k deaths on SMBF. It also took me almost twice as long, 1 month 1 week or so for SMB vs. 2 months 2 days for SMBF... With me playing the latter almost exclusively.

 

It could be possible I just got a harder set of seeds, but then again given the ridiculously hard games you have completed yourself, I am really not all that surprised to see you breezing through this one too!

 

Well played Ex, looking forward to your full review next week ?

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1 hour ago, ExistentialSolid said:

SMBF vs. SMB?
While Impossible Boy (from SMB) took me 15-20 hours to complete with multiple reference videos to guide me back in 2019, the hardest dark world in SMBF took me about 15 hours without any sort of reference video and with a poor/random seed selection. With an easier seed(s), the possibility for skips, and reference videos to guide my routing, there is no reason that the most difficult dark worlds in SMBF should have taken me more than 6-8 hours to complete deathless. Because this game is still in it's infancy when it comes to tricks/speedrun tech/skips/etc, we may not have these luxuries for some time.

The fact that SMB is still a brutally challenging game 11 years after it released despite being meticulously dissected by thousands of players is a testament to how wonderfully well-designed each level is. If SMBF did anything for me, it reminded me that the original SMB is one of the greatest platformers ever made. Give SMBF 11 years and see if there's anything other than dust left over...

What's Next?
Thanks for sitting through all that and please don't take anything that I've said too seriously (this was all in good fun). 1f605.png I'm going to be taking a little time off to recuperate and work on the Assetto Corsa mini-guide I keep putting off before diving back into The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth. Before we get back to business, I would actually like to introduce my upcoming plans for the thread in the next update! I hope you're ready!

 

Nice review! It's great seeing quite a few of you guys all finishing this recently & knowing what the game is like. I've watched quite a few videos of this game & it looks tough so nice going on that! It must be nice to be able to come back & finish it off. I would like to know how you & anyone else would compare all the platformers such as Cloudberry Kingdom, VVVVVV, Splasher along with SMB itself as these are the ones that I recognise & look out for a lot. I've seen videos of Cloudberry Kingdom & that one looks ridiculous to finish lol. I know VVVVVV also has very few achievers but I don't really know anything about that one. I do know that Splasher has very few achievers as well & requires very long runs so that one is another tough one. I have wanted to go for one of the good platformers eventually so I got SMB the other day. I assume that one is the best to have a go at since many say it's such a good game plus there's lots of videos that will be very helpful.

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Hey Ex, first of all... Fantastic write-up! I agree with @Joe Dubz, you really have a unique and interesting way of presenting your thoughts on a game :) You've mentioned multiple times that you sometimes stare at a blank page before knowing what to write, but I think the effort that you put into your updates really shows :) 

 

You wrote in the end to not take what you write too seriously... But I still want to disagree with you on a couple of points :P That being said, I atually agree with many of your points, including that SMBF is the inferior game and not anywhere close to beeing as good as the original, but there is one of your major points that I want to talk about, if I may... I hope you don't mind some opposition :P 

 

 

Quote

Is SMBF harder to platinum than Super Meat Boy?
Not necessarily. In its final state, SMBF should be significantly easier to platinum than the original Super Meat Boy. It may sound ridiculous to use phrases like "will be" or "final state" to describe the condition of SMBF's difficulty because it implies that the difficulty will fluctuate over time. However, with time, the game's difficulty should face a dramatic reduction.

 

[...]

 

With an easier seed(s), the possibility for skips, and reference videos to guide my routing, the most difficult dark worlds in SMBF would have taken me (and the vast majority of other players) considerably less time to complete deathless. Because this game is still in it's infancy when it comes to tricks/speedrun tech/skips/seed selection/etc., we may not have these luxuries for awhile. Time will tell how SMBF ages in terms of difficulty, but I fully expect it to face a serious declawing once the dust has settled.

 

I don't think that will be the case... The reason being, that there are only two groups of players (that I can think of) that would care about this game being as easy as possible: Trophy / Achievement Hunters, and Speedrunners. 

 

Now, for the first group... Most people going for this platinum are a special kind of sub-group within the community. People like yourself, that enjoy a good challenge, that don't mind spending 20 hours practicing a single world over and over. Players that enjoy hitting their heads against a wall over and over again, players that like finding their own way through the levels. Personally, I am finding most of my enjoyment with the game (which, there I agree with you, is less than I was hoping) from finding my way through my own levels that probably no one else will play.

But also, I don't see this game generating as much attention as the first one did. For one, as you point out, it's the weaker game, McMillen didn't develop it, and it's an auto-runner. Thus, I don't think that there will be any collective effort from the community towards finding an "easy" seed. 

 

The players that I trust most when it comes to finding an easy seed, are speedrunners. Those guys are crazy, and will do whatever it takes to break a game. 

HOWEVER... not a single speedrunner listed on speedrun.com plays on a playstation console. Most are playing on PC, with a couple of exceptions playing on Switch.... This is relevant because... A PC seed does not result in the same levels when used on playstation! Thus, even if an easy seed is found for PC, it's useless for us. 

 

 

Quote

Once the last traces of SMBF's challenge were swept away, I set to work collecting 90 pacifiers to pop the last of the game's trophies. Pacifiers, which function in much the same way as "bandages" did in the original SMB, unlock extra characters and serve as collectibles within the game's randomly generated stages. Unlike SMB, there are an infinite number of pacifiers since you can repeatedly play NG+ to generate and collect more. I had 30 by the end of my first playthrough and collected 10-15 more per NG+ while sticking to the light worlds since the pacifiers, and the levels that contain them, are much simpler to solve. 

 

Sorry to be pedantic here, but there are not infinite number of pacifiers since there are only 7200 possible chunks and only a select few can have a pacifier :P  

 

 

Quote

Using a random seed, I found the hardest worlds to require a wide range of practice.
For the sake of transparency, I'm going to list my times with each of the hardest deathless runs below:
Dark World 1 - 15 hours (hard)
Dark World 2 -  7 hours (easy)
Dark World 3 - 12 hours (medium/hard)
Dark World 4 - 9 hours (medium)
Dark World 5 - 15 hours (hard)
0XDEADBEEF - 10 hours (medium)

 

[...]

 

While Impossible Boy (the most difficult challenge from SMB) took me 15-20 hours to complete with multiple reference videos to guide me back in 2019, the hardest dark world in SMBF took me about 15 hours without any sort of reference video and with a poor/random seed selection. 

 

[...]

 

Another, more accessible, way to cut down on practice is to use reference videos. When I played on a random seed and had to spend hours figuring out how to complete each level deathless, that was dozens of hours wasted that I could have saved by watching another player figure them out for me. If you use a fixed seed that another player played on and follow their routing through each level, you are guaranteed to save more time than you would trying to puzzle these levels out for yourself. 

 

Alright, so... I personally also needed about 15 hours for Impossible Boy, and 5 hours for Girl and Zombie Boy... I guess it was similar for you. Here, we have 6 runs that take roughly as much practice as Impossible Boy, so to me, that does not go together with the statement that SMBF is not the harder game ? I have not yet started the dark worlds, so I cannot give my own opinion, but at least the numbers point towards SMBF being the harder game. 

 

As for videos. I mean, as you say SMB has been out for 11 years and there are plenty of videos about Impossible Boy... and people still don't find the game "easy" by any means ? In your case, you said you spent 40% of your time figuring out how to beat the levels. Let's say that using videos, you could cut your overall time down by 20% (you still need to properly execute what you see in the vids)... That's still a lot of practice required for each run! 

 

 

Quote

Minor Issues:
- When returning from a level to the main menu, directional buttons will often lock preventing you from moving left or right in the menus.

- Sound can often stutter producing irritating sound effect loops (I eventually played the game on mute).
- Movement can get wonky around ledges and you will occasionally run in an impossible direction upon landing (often resulting in death). 

Major Issues:
- With thousands of possible chunks, generic level design is inevitable. There are no memorable levels in SMBF and little reason to dig through the thousands of other possible chunks to find them.
- Softlocks are frequent and are typically a symptom of poor level design. 
- Certain chunks have solutions that are obfuscated through baffling design decisions. In the section below, I demonstrate across two passes that a seemingly pointless jump is required to force the purple orb (that is currently off screen at the time of the jump) to move to a position that makes the upcoming section possible. Sections like this are not uncommon in SMBF and are again indicative of sloppy design.

 

 

While I can't say that I have experienced any of the minor issues you mentioned (although I found the sound during cutscenes to be horrendously distorted), it's the major issues that are the important ones... And with those I agree. It's a real shame, but levels not being memorable is one of the biggest issues I have with the game. I enjoy solving the puzzles (i.e. figuring out how to beat a level), but once the solution is found, what's left is a chain of random chunks that don't really stand out or, what is worse, are too complicated and confusing to leave a good impression. That is, without a doubt, the biggest problem I have with this game .

I haven't experienced any softlocks yet, but I have experienced situations with no solution due to a miss-timed jump and the left side of the screen leading to death. 

 

 

I hope you don't mind my opposing opinions ? I don't want to defend SMBF as I agree with many of your negative points. I just wanted to start a discussion about some of the issues mentioned ? 

 

Looking forward to your next update! 

Edited by Arcesius
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  • 2 weeks later...

I’m late to the SMBF discussion, but I’d like to just ask a couple more questions, if you don’t mind me bringing it back up after you’d probably (hoped to) have forgotten about it by now... :P
 

I noticed you compared it with SMB regularly in your final update, and rightly so, it is Meat Boy after all. But say you didn’t compare the two at all, treat them as their own completely individual games for a moment. Super Meat Boy, and the newly released Randomly Generated Level Autorunner Platformer (good name right?) ? From the perspective that it is nothing to do with SMB, so forgetting that the levels aren’t as memorable as, the difficulty in your case, even on a random seed wasn’t as hard as, and because you didn’t list any positives that I could see, I’m curious:

 

Did you have any good or enjoyable moments from your time with the game? Completely fair if not, and a shame really after the hype surrounding the game.

 

Was the auto running fun from a gameplay perspective? The closest I’ve come to auto running is Badland and that’s only because the screen is chasing you ? I’m wondering if it helps or restricts the flow of the game overall.

 

We have randomly generated levels, with varying difficulties and new mechanics. The levels are considerably long and quite complex to work out. Is the game a good challenge?

 

Drawing the two games back together now, I think what you said about easier seeds being found over time (as great as this would be) might not be as likely to happen. In my opinion this is because SMB has established itself in the community as one of those really hard and popular platinum trophies that you see crop up in various discussions, and many people to this day are still going for it (myself included!), despite it being out for many years. As cynical as it might sound but I don’t see SMBF ever being as popular or sought after, to a point that we’ll ever have the easy seeds narrowed down.

 

Has @ExistentialSolid made me think this might not be the best platformer I’ll ever play? Yes

 

Am I still going to play it? Yes xD

 

Appreciate the honest thoughts on the game regardless if they’re positive or negative. I’d rather know if something is good or bad, not just easy or hard. Keep up the good work man!

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On 04/11/2021 at 9:38 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

Thanks, I appreciate it! 1f642.png There are still plenty of other tough PSN platformers out there I haven't played (Leo's Fortune, Dustforce, and Giana Sisters to name a few), but, of the ones you've mentioned, I'd compare them in terms of difficulty as follows:

Cloudberry Kingdom > Splasher > VVVVVV > SMB > SMBF (on a hypothetical easy seed) 

SMB is definitely the best one to go for; it has a relatively smooth difficulty curve, fantastic level design, and will make your heart race when you're on the verge of getting the platinum! There's good reason this game has stuck around for over a decade and I think you'll enjoy it once you get around to it. 1f604.png Plus, it'll definitely help you build your confidence if you attempt any of the other games you've listed afterwards. 

 

Nice! I'm glad you go into a lot of detail in your posts & it's especially helpful as I only know parts of what these games are about. It's really interesting knowing how everyone found each one. I mentioned the platformers that I've heard to be the toughest to do. I guessed that you would have put it something like that going by what you've said. I haven't done any platformers really so I'm glad I'm going with the one that many have said is the best one. I'll try to do what I can when I get to it!

Edited by Destructor-8
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  • 2 weeks later...
53 minutes ago, ExistentialSolid said:

The Pitch 1f3ac.png "Please Destroy Us" Challenge [Community Event]
Hey everyone! 1f604.png Over the past year, you've watched a masochistic weirdo aimlessly leaping from brutal game to brutal game in an effort to get "destroyed." Time has flown and amazing people have come and gone since starting this ridiculous journey. While I've had a blast talking with you all and trying to discover the lengths I'm willing to go for some digital bragging rights, I've always felt like something was missing...

As the months rolled by and routine started to set in, the process began to lose meaning. Accomplishments felt less impactful, my words felt more hollow, and my motivation to continue began to freefall. I don't want to just fizzle out and fade into the background over this perceived lack of meaning. So... in an effort to liven things up, I started to wonder what would happen if we brought the community aboard for the ride and turn this whole "getting destroyed" thing into a community-driven effort from start to finish! 1f624.png

Here's how it would work. We take the "Please Destroy Me" checklist concept and transform it into a full-blown event. 
Much like the checklist, the event would be organized into three phases: the nomination phase, the polling phase, and the "Destroy Us" phase.

During the nomination phase, participants would get to nominate a single challenging game that they would like to see the community play. There would be no length, genre, or difficulty restrictions on the games that could be nominated. All a participant needs to do is state the name of the game they would like to nominate and briefly make a case for why they believe the game is difficult. Either myself, or whoever is hosting the event, will approve the nominated game provided it meets these two criteria and add it to the nomination list.

During the polling phase, participants would vote on whichever games they would collectively like to see/play from the list of nominees using the same two-stage voting process that I've used in my own thread. Stage 1 of the polling process involves participants voting for as many of the games on the nomination list as they have an interest in (the goal of this stage is to gauge the general level of interest in each game); the top 3 games that receive the most votes would move on to stage 2. During stage 2 of the polling process, participants would cast a single vote for whichever game, of the top 3, they have the most interest in playing. The winner of stage 2 would become the community's selection for the event and headline the next phase of the process.     

Finally, during the "Destroy Us" phase, all participants would have a set amount of time (I'm thinking 2-3 months) to play through the winning game and provide their own updates along the way. Whether these updates are as short as haikus or as long as essays, each participant is encouraged to document their struggles and engage with the community as they collectively work towards the game's completion. Basically, it'll be like a "book club" but for challenging games. Anyone can join in at any time and can simply stop providing updates if they wish to drop out. Everyone that successfully finishes the community-nominated game will be celebrated on the front page of the thread in a "Can't Destroy Me" list. Once the time allotted has ended, we would begin the process again by cycling back to the nomination phase. 

Participation in the event would be a great way for players to build their confidence in writing/public presentation, step outside of their gaming comfort zones, and make connections with others. It takes the best ideas of my thread and broadens their appeal to a wider audience. 

Your Input 1f4cb.png
Before this has any chance of becoming an actual event, I'd really like to get your input. No matter how much or how little interaction you've had with this thread, I value your feedback and would love to hear from as many of you as possible! ((PMs are okay too if you're not comfortable posting!))

1. Is this an event you would be interested in joining?
2. Are there any changes you would make to the event format I've described above?
3. Any worries? Problems? Concerns?
4. Would anyone have an interest in hosting/co-hosting the event?
5. Are there already similar events on the forums?

Rehearsal (The Next Poll) 1f3b6.png
To help fine-tune the event logistics, I was thinking we could give the event a practice run on this thread if you all are open to the idea! From now until December 19th, I would be happy to accept any final additions, or changes, to the nomination list before the next poll begins. I'll also be putting a hold on my own updates while I try to finish up (or at least make some progress on) The Binding of Isaac: Rebirth.

The next poll will begin on December 19th with the winning game to be started on January 5th! You all are invited to post your own updates on the winning game if you have any interest in joining in! Depending on how things go, the event will officially be posted, independent of this thread, between the months of February and April.  

Thank you for reading! :D

Although I didn't actively participate in your thread, I followed/read a lot of the discussions and updates, and I think turning this into a community event would be very interesting. there are a lot of extremely difficult game hunters around here, and that sense of community would make gaming a lot more fun, and reading multiple people debating aspects of the same game would be great. I wouldn't participate due to lack of organization in my own personal life/gaming life lol, my rhythm of playing stuff is totally random and without any kind of discipline, but I support your idea. and congratulations for getting here, your achievements were great! :)

there are many checklists in this forum section, but yours is perhaps the boldest one. and I don't know how you can plan to play all this and still make detailed reviews haha

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5 hours ago, ExistentialSolid said:

The Pitch 1f3ac.png "Please Destroy Us" Challenge [Community Event]


I think expanding the thread out to a community event sounds like a cool idea!

 

The only thing I might consider (and this is purely based on anecdotal evidence, so take it as just one douche-bag’s musings ?) - but I have kinda noticed that the community events that are generally the most successful and widely participated in, do tend to be the ones where there is a certain level of personal autonomy left in the selection of games to play within their rules.

 

There may be an issue here with this proposed set of rules - that it becomes off-putting or exclusionary by being overtly prescriptive?

Because a single game is selected at any one time, that means anyone who doesn’t fancy that game (or has it done already) is left out for a long period of time (2-3 months), potentially losing them in perpetuity?

 

It may be worth considering having multiple games on the go at once - or even a pool of ‘approved’ games, with participants choosing one to do at the start of each ‘round’ - that gives people some choice remaining in their selection…

 

I know that, personally, I got kinda put off joining events where the game to be played is set, and there is no choice at all, by a bad experience once… though I may be in the minority there, I don know :dunno:

 

Just a thought, anyways - I’m not on the skill level for this kinda event regardless, (and lack the discipline required! ?) - but it sounds like it could be a fun one for those with the chops for it!

 

Good luck ?

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What a novel idea, Ex! I would most definitely participate in this ? 

 

I do kind of echo @DrBloodmoney's sentiment about maybe having a few games at a time tho? Just so if participants had already completed the game on deck, they wouldn't be locked out til the next round. Or maybe just some other way for them to sub something else in, or something to that effect.

 

As far as co-hosting, I would certainly consider doing so if you needed a hand in that regard! I'm pretty active on the forums here, on pretty much daily or at the very least every other day. Just let me know if that's the route you wanna go, if not don't even sweat it ? Looking forward to participating either way, bring on the challenge ??

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I think the main reason why you feel that your accomplishments have less impact is because although your recent achievements are quite admirable, they are a result of a grueling grind, as opposed to a brutal yet rewarding test of your skill and perseverance. Take Ikaruga, for instance. That was a game that made you question if you were even capable of earning it. It would only be through dozens of hours of sweat, tears, and failed attempts before you finally emerged on top. It was a brutally hard, but well-crafted challenge that pushed you to your limits. Then, there's SMBF, which simply required you to learn a set of randomly selected chunks that may or may not be difficult. (Tl;Dr: You need a properly made challenge that will push you beyond what you think is possible for you to give your achievements more personal impact.)

 

Whenever I think about your loss of motivation for this challenge, I constantly think about pacing in video games. Why, you may ask? Well, I remember watching this video from Game Maker's Toolkit, where the narrator said that having the game at max intensity for too long may lead to desensitization from the action. I think this idea also carries over to trophy hunting. If you're constantly challenging ultra hard platinums, then you begin to lose that sense of challenge and accomplishment, and just find yourself going through the motions. Combine that with the repeating bitter taste of failure, and your motivation is going to drop dramatically. 

 

I finally grew the guts to start grinding Splasher, and it is just as difficult as I had anticipated. In fact, I could argue that it is harder than Tetris Effect in some areas, with the latter only requiring quick, precise movements for only around 3-5 minutes at most, where Splasher requires 40-70 minutes of consistently skillful play while keeping your cool the whole time. Your videos were quite a valuable resource to have, since it helped me establish solid routing for each level, and I was able to set some decent times on some of them as a result.

 

Thanks for listening to my rambling! I hope it at least makes some sense!

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On 11/28/2021 at 4:33 AM, DrBloodmoney said:

I think expanding the thread out to a community event sounds like a cool idea!

 

The only thing I might consider (and this is purely based on anecdotal evidence, so take it as just one douche-bag’s musings 1f602.png) - but I have kinda noticed that the community events that are generally the most successful and widely participated in, do tend to be the ones where there is a certain level of personal autonomy left in the selection of games to play within their rules.

 

There may be an issue here with this proposed set of rules - that it becomes off-putting or exclusionary by being overtly prescriptive?

Because a single game is selected at any one time, that means anyone who doesn’t fancy that game (or has it done already) is left out for a long period of time (2-3 months), potentially losing them in perpetuity?

 

It may be worth considering having multiple games on the go at once - or even a pool of ‘approved’ games, with participants choosing one to do at the start of each ‘round’ - that gives people some choice remaining in their selection…

 

I know that, personally, I got kinda put off joining events where the game to be played is set, and there is no choice at all, by a bad experience once… though I may be in the minority there, I don know :dunno:

 

Just a thought, anyways - I’m not on the skill level for this kinda event regardless, (and lack the discipline required! 1f602.png) - but it sounds like it could be a fun one for those with the chops for it!

 

Good luck 1f44d.png


Thanks, I really appreciate the feedback! ?

Denying the participants a level of autonomy, barring the polls, will absolutely be off-putting for some. Under the current rule set, I'm sure there would be plenty of players that lose interest and leave when their preferred game loses the poll. I would need to be ready to trade event success/popularity for my narrow vision of what I want to see out of the event were I to commit to these rules.   

Allowing multiple games at once, while ideal for greater accessibility, might fragment the audience. Supposing we were to allow three games instead of one, we might see sub-communities form around each game. All of the updates about game X, while interesting to the players that are also playing X, might be ignored by players focused on games Y or Z (depending on the complexity of the game, these updates might not even make sense at all to players focused on other games). Likewise, updates about games Y or Z might generate little interest among the players not playing Y or Z. 

By funneling the entire player pool into one arena, there's more cohesion in the community and in the updates they provide. Everyone would have to surmount the same challenge one way or another and every update would be relatable to every other participant. Success, I feel, would be more likely in this cohesive environment where everyone else has your back and has to deal with the same nightmares. 

All that said, I rarely participate in events on PSNP (or anywhere else) so my ideas may be based more firmly in fantasy than reality. ? 

Something that's made me sad about your feedback, however, was your comment about "not being on the skill level" or having the discipline to stick with a game that might be selected for the event. If you're thinking these sorts of things as someone that is very obviously skilled and disciplined, then I can't imagine what other players are thinking. :( I wonder if the event would be less intimidating to participants if the host of the event were more of an unproven everyman. More than anything, I want to make an event that will push "ordinary" gamers out of their comfort zones. I want them to prove to themselves that they have what it takes to complete these difficult games too.
 

On 11/28/2021 at 0:11 AM, kevao97 said:

Although I didn't actively participate in your thread, I followed/read a lot of the discussions and updates, and I think turning this into a community event would be very interesting. there are a lot of extremely difficult game hunters around here, and that sense of community would make gaming a lot more fun, and reading multiple people debating aspects of the same game would be great. I wouldn't participate due to lack of organization in my own personal life/gaming life lol, my rhythm of playing stuff is totally random and without any kind of discipline, but I support your idea. and congratulations for getting here, your achievements were great! :)

there are many checklists in this forum section, but yours is perhaps the boldest one. and I don't know how you can plan to play all this and still make detailed reviews haha


That's kind of you to say, thank you! :D There are so many players out there that don't believe they have the potential to get some of these difficult games finished, so I wanted to find a way to force players to put their false assumptions to the test. Having a small community there to encourage and motivate you to push your way through a challenge might be exactly what some of us need to prove to ourselves that we're capable of success. I don't know if I ever would have tried half of the games I've played this year if it wasn't for the confidence that the community helped give me. I want others to experience the same sort of encouraging environment without all the stress of managing a checklist.

The time limit on how long participants can post about the winning game (if I keep these event rules) is something I'll have to give thought to. I want something long enough to accommodate the sporadic rhythm of players like you without losing the attention of people that will push through immediately. 
 

On 11/28/2021 at 6:58 PM, Joe Dubz said:

What a novel idea, Ex! I would most definitely participate in this 1f601.png 

 

I do kind of echo @DrBloodmoney's sentiment about maybe having a few games at a time tho? Just so if participants had already completed the game on deck, they wouldn't be locked out til the next round. Or maybe just some other way for them to sub something else in, or something to that effect.

 

As far as co-hosting, I would certainly consider doing so if you needed a hand in that regard! I'm pretty active on the forums here, on pretty much daily or at the very least every other day. Just let me know if that's the route you wanna go, if not don't even sweat it 1f44d.png Looking forward to participating either way, bring on the challenge 1f913.png1f4aa.png


I'm glad to hear it! ?

When it comes to having multiple games, I'm just not sure where to draw the line between accessibility and cohesiveness. Having more than one game will divide the community into subsets, but sticking with one game will push others away entirely. I'm sure it would be fine to allow players that have already completed the assigned game (or players that have decided not to play) to offer encouragement or advice to other players, but I know that's only a partial solution. 

I wonder if my idea would be more successful as some sort of hybrid "community checklist?"

Either way, I'm happy to see you have an interest in hosting and I'll definitely consider you for the role if I go that route! :D

 

On 11/29/2021 at 10:16 AM, Trumpet_Boi_208 said:

I think the main reason why you feel that your accomplishments have less impact is because although your recent achievements are quite admirable, they are a result of a grueling grind, as opposed to a brutal yet rewarding test of your skill and perseverance. Take Ikaruga, for instance. That was a game that made you question if you were even capable of earning it. It would only be through dozens of hours of sweat, tears, and failed attempts before you finally emerged on top. It was a brutally hard, but well-crafted challenge that pushed you to your limits. Then, there's SMBF, which simply required you to learn a set of randomly selected chunks that may or may not be difficult. (Tl;Dr: You need a properly made challenge that will push you beyond what you think is possible for you to give your achievements more personal impact.)


You have a point, but it can be tough to tell the difference between a "grueling grind" and a "rewarding test of skill/perseverance." Depending on how you frame the process, you could argue that any difficult game is just a grueling grind when you break it down. Ikaruga, Splasher, Assetto Corsa—no matter the game or the genre, they all require you to grind to build up the muscle memory to succeed. In a more subjective sense, Assetto Corsa sort of skirted the line between the two. I felt immense satisfaction when I earned my first hotlap gold medal because I felt as though I were genuinely improving my racing skills, but, as soon the floodgates were opened and I earned medal after medal, taking the platinum started to feel like an inevitability as long as I kept grinding. Whether we find the process to be "rewarding" is always going to be up for interpretation.

I actually started Assetto Corsa because I felt certain that it was "beyond" my current skill set. If you placed a toddler in a Formula One car and said, "go out and win the World Championship", you don't expect the toddler to come back with the cup in his hands. ? I know that earning the platinum in Assetto Corsa isn't comparable, but I felt like that toddler in that I was certain I stood no chance at success. I've proven to myself so many times that anything I think is out of reach is actually perfectly achievable with patience, determination, and the right mindset. Where should I go looking for something that is "beyond what I think is possible" if I've stopped believing that anything is out of reach?
 

On 11/29/2021 at 10:16 AM, Trumpet_Boi_208 said:

Whenever I think about your loss of motivation for this challenge, I constantly think about pacing in video games. Why, you may ask? Well, I remember watching this video from Game Maker's Toolkit, where the narrator said that having the game at max intensity for too long may lead to desensitization from the action. I think this idea also carries over to trophy hunting. If you're constantly challenging ultra hard platinums, then you begin to lose that sense of challenge and accomplishment, and just find yourself going through the motions. Combine that with the repeating bitter taste of failure, and your motivation is going to drop dramatically. 


Desensitization may be one of the biggest culprits behind my missing motivation. I don't feel much at all anymore and I don't know where to look to find the same high that I used to. I guess I'm one of those junkies that's been on the hard stuff for so long, they stop feeling anything. ? 

The logical thing to do is to take a break, which is why I'm trying to push the community into the spotlight by starting up an event. Something that would give me satisfaction is seeing others prove to themselves that they can do anything (or, at least, prove that they're much more capable than they believed they were). I'd get a much greater thrill out of that than finding another hard game to pick apart. 

 

On 11/29/2021 at 10:16 AM, Trumpet_Boi_208 said:

I finally grew the guts to start grinding Splasher, and it is just as difficult as I had anticipated. In fact, I could argue that it is harder than Tetris Effect in some areas, with the latter only requiring quick, precise movements for only around 3-5 minutes at most, where Splasher requires 40-70 minutes of consistently skillful play while keeping your cool the whole time. Your videos were quite a valuable resource to have, since it helped me establish solid routing for each level, and I was able to set some decent times on some of them as a result.

 

Thanks for listening to my rambling! I hope it at least makes some sense!


I think you're the first player to actually use my Splasher videos. ? I'm happy to hear that they helped you though (it makes the whole process worthwhile). Keeping your cool can be tough, but if you get a strong start, you can build up a time buffer that can go a long way in calming your nerves towards the end. Good luck! I'm sure I'll see you in the 100% club soon enough! 

You didn't ramble at all and I was glad to read through your post. ?

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I like the idea of the community getting more involved, some of the best parts of this thread are your discussions with other members going through a given game. 

 

There are a couple games, Catherine comes to mind, I would be interested in tackling with a group but not many. Most of these games are outside of my wheelhouse but it's enjoyable reading your progress through them.

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