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ExistentialSolid's "Please Destroy Me" Detour


ExistentialSolid

New Nomination List ~ Poll #1  

12 members have voted

  1. 1. Which of the following games would you like to see next?

    • Moon Hunters
      5
    • Attacking Zegeta 2
      5
    • GoNNer 2
      1
    • XPosed Reloaded
      0
    • Mr. Driller: DrillLand
      2


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22 hours ago, enaysoft said:

 

Just watching that Hatsune Miku video, made me whince. I love music games but I stopped playing them mostly since the PS2 era.

I think for me the biggest problem with music games now, is that they slowly became increasingly too difficult. I mean I guess that's to be expected over time.

 

 

I mean, Beatmania IIDX 30, most of the songs on the game are way more intense than playing actual music on a real piano.

The time required to get good at playing musical games now, it honestly seems better to take up a real instrument route, or at least it seems a way more better use of your time, in that you can go over to someone's house and they have a piano there and your skills can be used elsewhere outside of the PS4 and electricity.

 

I think these days something like Rock Smith on PS3 and PS4 that allows you to play on a real guitar, that just seems somehow a slightly better use of one's time.

 

That's just me though I guess. lol

 

Yeah, I am afraid to get Kingdom Hearts: Melody of Memory since I don't know that I can even beat it.

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On 11/21/2022 at 5:14 PM, Thedah said:

I mainly lurk in this thread and am glad to see it reopened! Always love to see your approach on difficult and obscure games.

 

I'd like to nominate Mr Driller: DrillLand. It's only got 4 achievers between the PS4 and PS5 versions and they're all from Asia.

 

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/14525-mr-driller-drillland

 

Here's a thread on the forums about the difficulty.

 

 


I'm really happy to hear you lurk the thread! ? Thank you!

Mr. Driller: DrillLand looks like a great pick! There's not much puzzle game representation on these lists, so it's great to see some variety, especially when the difficulty looks like it may be off the charts. I'll go ahead and add it to the list!

 

On 11/25/2022 at 8:46 PM, da-Noob123 said:

Wow that is some insane button pressing you need to do! I have never really been into rhythm games beyond playing Guitar Hero/ Rockband (on easy) at my cousins' houses however when I played Yakuza Like a Dragon, I really enjoyed doing the karaoke songs. Now it is nowhere near as complex as what you're doing in Hatsune but I will admit I liked the challenge of getting at least 90% completion in all of the songs. I am kind of looking forward to this part of the other Yakuza games - right now at least lol.


Complexity isn't always a good thing in rhythm games anyway. Having to work around the controller's limitations in Hatsune's case introduces a lot of challenges (some are fun to solve; others are a chore). Then again, if this game were super straightforward, I guess there'd be little reason to write updates on it at all.

I really enjoyed karaoke in the Yakuza games too! It's such a simple format, but that's part of what makes it so addictive. I'm always left wanting more songs or stricter challenge requirements so I can sink into the music for just a little while longer. I'd buy the hell out of a Yakuza rhythm spin-off just to see how hard the music videos go!     

 

On 11/25/2022 at 9:02 PM, enaysoft said:

Just watching that Hatsune Miku video, made me whince. I love music games but I stopped playing them mostly since the PS2 era.

I think for me the biggest problem with music games now, is that they slowly became increasingly too difficult. I mean I guess that's to be expected over time.

 

I mean, Beatmania IIDX 30, most of the songs on the game are way more intense than playing actual music on a real piano.

The time required to get good at playing musical games now, it honestly seems better to take up a real instrument route, or at least it seems a way more better use of your time, in that you can go over to someone's house and they have a piano there and your skills can be used elsewhere outside of the PS4 and electricity.

 

I think these days something like Rock Smith on PS3 and PS4 that allows you to play on a real guitar, that just seems somehow a slightly better use of one's time.

 

That's just me though I guess. lol


I definitely get the absurdity of dedicating thousands of hours to a rhythm game, but I don't really see it as a waste of time. In a way, I think rhythm games are just highly specialized instruments. You can find communities filled with passionate rhythm game players in much the same way you can find communities that are passionate for guitars or pianos. Even though the skills you learn through rhythm games aren't as practical and the communities are generally smaller, it still offers a way to engage with other people (and at a lower price point than most instruments). 

I've never been great at engaging with the community though, so it probably wouldn't make much difference for me personally. Whether I spend time with a rhythm game or a piano, it would probably be time spent in isolation. I don't see myself going over to a friend's house to rip out a sick piano solo. ? Players that can manage IIDX practically transcend the genre though. They're living machines.
 

On 11/25/2022 at 9:29 PM, Baker said:

Hey welcome back.

 

I want to switch my original recommendation of Ys Origin to Pure Pool. With only 13 100% achievers it’s both difficult and obscure. Try and beat my current fastest completion time, which can easily be done btw.. ?


Thanks! Glad to be back. ?

I actually played Pure Pool back in 2018, but never had any concrete plans to plat it. Since I started it 4 years ago, I'm going to be stuck sitting in the bottom half of the fastest if I ever get around to finishing. I'll go ahead and switch out Ys Origin for Pure Pool!  

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On 11/21/2022 at 2:33 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

Well, when I was playing through PDF/F2/X, I was discouraged by the lack of a practice mode and assumed that I'd improve at a much quicker rate if I used these other games as a warm-up before moving on to Future Tone (since it includes practice mode). I was able to get a few 8 and 9 star perfects along the way, but I didn't make a serious effort to push any further until Future Tone. As much as I like to encourage players to hone their skills in the edit modes of the earlier games, I personally find it faster to improve through constant repetitions in practice mode. The leaderboards of Future Tone also made the idea more appealing since I'm naturally competitive. I never went back to the older games to clean-up, but the idea's crossed my mind from time to time. 

Practice Mode is undoubtedly one of the greatest tools for improvement. Some will defend the lack of it, claiming that no practice mode forces you to get better, but I don't buy it. A couple of songs in F 2nd: I'll Miku-Miku You♪ (For Reals) (7★) [#249-258] and Glory 3usi9 (8★) [#443-462] have really simple charts with one tricky part each. What could have been Perfected in a few hours ended up taking weeks because, even with YouTube videos in slow-motion to help, there was just no way to build muscle memory while getting true feedback on those tricky parts outside of playing the entire song and hoping for the best. I wager a proper practice mode would have saved me 100 or even 200 hours on my journey up to this point. 

 

Thinking about this did spur me to do some research, though, and I'm just now finding out that PPD -- a Diva simulator for PC -- seems to support F 2nd charting (at least somewhat). This could be my ticket to finally completing F 2nd. I'll look into it ASAP.

 

Anyway, if a trophy-minded player had a goal like 100%ing the Dreamy Theater games, then a few hundred hours of Future Tone is probably their best way forward. Even if the charting is wildly different, the brutal difficulty of Arcade charts will make anything on console look like child's play in comparison. Wishing I knew what I know now while I was still active in Future Tone, but I'm in too deep now to start game hopping. Fortunately, it's mostly downhill after F2nd - besides the Extreme Medley in X, but I won't put as much pressure on myself to Perfect it like I have with F/F2.

 

On 11/25/2022 at 1:58 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

Now that we have a template for how to perform these holds, it's time to rinse and repeat!

The things we do for points, huh. There a lot of holds during this slow part, and I'm sure doing them all correctly makes the difference between showing up in the top 10, and just getting Perfect. Besides multi-notes, holds are the other thing I'm dreading coming back to, lol. A lot of combos were dropped fumbling around with holds during my time with FT, and I probably could have squeezed out a few more Perfects just disregarding them, but Perfects under 100% hurt me more than just dropping combo, so I'll just have to learn to deal with that somehow.

 

On 11/25/2022 at 1:58 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

Usually, it's not very difficult to perform holds optimally even at low level play thanks to shoulder button configuration options coupled with hold transferring. The problem is trying to maximize the number of "Cool" note judgements you receive. "Cools" are usually judged within a 3-frame window while "Goods" (worse than cools) tack on an extra 2 frames to each end of that window. Some notes have a 4-frame "Cool" window for technical reasons and slider notes have an even larger "Cool" window though I'm struggling to find exactly how large that window is. On multi-notes, the value of the "Cool" judgment doubles if you're playing a double note, triples if you're playing a triple note, and quadruples if you're playing a quad note. 

This is great to know. I've never actually seen discussion on the timing windows for notes in a console rhythm game before now, but it's cool to see that it was figured out for Future Tone. If I ever get good enough at Diva, it would be fun to go for some F0 scores, but my experience from other rhythm games has been that chasing 100% accuracy scores too early is often to the detriment of overall ability, so I'll keep the focus on getting to those 10 stars ASAP.

 

On 11/25/2022 at 1:58 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

I miiiiight be using the leaderboard grind as an excuse to procrastinate a little, but managing an 8th place slot on the CT EXEX boards helped me come to terms with years of rust and has given me just a little more confidence that I can actually get this done! Before I start grinding out of my 15th place position on the FS EXEX leaderboards, I want to hunker down and start making progress on Intense Voice. I haven't even passed the next update's "Proficiency Test" yet, so I've got some serious work to do! 

I can relate to this in a lot of ways, as the temptation to chase some easy progression is always there - like Perf'ing E/N/H charts to prepare for an overall 100%, or going for scores on lower star Extremes. I've been able to keep myself on track in Diva by jumping into the most important task first -- which for you would be getting some practice on the next Proficiency Test straight away. Basically, veggies first, and then some treats.

 

Anyway, great work summarizing and executing this current section. It's a helpful read, as it's gotten the cogs turning in my head thinking about how I'll handle holds and switches myself when I get back to FT, depending on what control scheme I go with, at least. Best of luck getting the next section down soon. ?

Edited by AihaLoveleaf
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On 11/27/2022 at 4:56 PM, AihaLoveleaf said:

Practice Mode is undoubtedly one of the greatest tools for improvement. Some will defend the lack of it, claiming that no practice mode forces you to get better, but I don't buy it. A couple of songs in F 2nd: I'll Miku-Miku You♪ (For Reals) (7★) [#249-258] and Glory 3usi9 (8★) [#443-462] have really simple charts with one tricky part each. What could have been Perfected in a few hours ended up taking weeks because, even with YouTube videos in slow-motion to help, there was just no way to build muscle memory while getting true feedback on those tricky parts outside of playing the entire song and hoping for the best. I wager a proper practice mode would have saved me 100 or even 200 hours on my journey up to this point. 

 

Thinking about this did spur me to do some research, though, and I'm just now finding out that PPD -- a Diva simulator for PC -- seems to support F 2nd charting (at least somewhat). This could be my ticket to finally completing F 2nd. I'll look into it ASAP.


Moments like #249-258 in I'll Miku-Miku You (For Reals) are exactly why I felt discouraged in F/F 2nd and had to move on. When you don't get a chance to practice the difficult parts of a song right away through something like practice mode, it's all too easy to set the song aside and think "eh, I'll get back to this one later." But, when you get in the habit of setting difficult songs aside, your skill level can quickly stagnate since you're rarely pushing yourself out of your comfort zone.     

Something that's always fascinated (and terrified) me is that the actual arcade cabinet has no practice mode. Maybe the note patterns that give me the most trouble feel more intuitive on the arcade's button layout, but I can't imagine having to spend 2 minutes just to get one shot at this chart's ending. Even with practice mode, I'm going to be spending dozens of hours coming to terms with everything I have left. I'd absolutely lose my mind without it. 

I hope PPD ends up being worthwhile! I've thought about downloading it myself, but I'm not really sure if my cheap laptop can handle it. If I had a beefier setup, I'd also be tempted to grab the Eden Project mod for Mega Mix+ (for the fun custom charts) and maybe Project Heartbeat.

 

On 11/27/2022 at 4:56 PM, AihaLoveleaf said:

The things we do for points, huh. There a lot of holds during this slow part, and I'm sure doing them all correctly makes the difference between showing up in the top 10, and just getting Perfect. Besides multi-notes, holds are the other thing I'm dreading coming back to, lol. A lot of combos were dropped fumbling around with holds during my time with FT, and I probably could have squeezed out a few more Perfects just disregarding them, but Perfects under 100% hurt me more than just dropping combo, so I'll just have to learn to deal with that somehow.


I dreaded holds at first too, though I can only imagine how much tougher they would be on an arcade controller. Since most holds on a DS4 are quickly transferred to the shoulder buttons and forgotten at higher level play, they sort of just blend into the background. On arcade, you have to deal with "hold greed" and knowing when to let go whereas, on DS4, holds get to drag on as long as possible with minimal effort. Rare sections like this may involve the occasional hand gymnastics, but they remind me that I have it easy all things considered. 

Perfects below 100% bug me too, haha! To this day, my only Extreme perfect below 100% is Paradichlorobenzene and I can't help but scowl a little bit every time I scroll by. The max possible % is a fairly generous 102.83%, but the chart is such a nightmare to play on controller that I haven't had the stomach to do it all again. For a 9 star, it's harder than most 10s.

 

On 11/27/2022 at 4:56 PM, AihaLoveleaf said:

This is great to know. I've never actually seen discussion on the timing windows for notes in a console rhythm game before now, but it's cool to see that it was figured out for Future Tone. If I ever get good enough at Diva, it would be fun to go for some F0 scores, but my experience from other rhythm games has been that chasing 100% accuracy scores too early is often to the detriment of overall ability, so I'll keep the focus on getting to those 10 stars ASAP.


I couldn't find the picture to include in the original post, but there's also a visual indicator of "early", "perfect", and "late" cools that correspond nicely with the timing window. Each cool has a shaded area on the bottom that is slanted upwards (early), slanted downwards (late), or has no slant at all (perfect). Even though it's been right in front of me for as long as I've played the game, I never noticed until I ran into a forum post explaining it a couple months back. Since the "cool" icon is constantly on the move and the slant isn't immediately obvious, it's really hard to gather any useful feedback from it though unless you were to film and play back your runs.

Putting off the accuracy grind until you've hit some of the game's highest peaks is probably for the best. Since there were so many moments in Future Tone where I felt "stuck", I started chasing scores in easier songs fairly early on, but, because my skills were still improving, I found myself going back to those same easy songs 2-3 times (often months or years apart) to chase high scores again since my standards had gradually risen alongside my skill. Had I just waited until I could handle most of the game's 10 star charts, I could have saved several hundred hours easily (though a case could also be made that practice like this was what helped me rise to that level in the first place, so it's tough to say for sure).
 

On 11/27/2022 at 4:56 PM, AihaLoveleaf said:

Anyway, great work summarizing and executing this current section. It's a helpful read, as it's gotten the cogs turning in my head thinking about how I'll handle holds and switches myself when I get back to FT, depending on what control scheme I go with, at least. Best of luck getting the next section down soon. 1f64f.png


Your luck pulled through! ? I appreciate it! Now I've gotta buckle down for the faster parts of the chart. I'm finding it much easier to get exhausted, so I'm worried my progress may start to slow to a crawl over these next few days/weeks. I'll keep at it though!

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On 12/1/2022 at 11:29 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

Moments like #249-258 in I'll Miku-Miku You (For Reals) are exactly why I felt discouraged in F/F 2nd and had to move on. When you don't get a chance to practice the difficult parts of a song right away through something like practice mode, it's all too easy to set the song aside and think "eh, I'll get back to this one later." But, when you get in the habit of setting difficult songs aside, your skill level can quickly stagnate since you're rarely pushing yourself out of your comfort zone.     

I can't blame anybody for dipping out early on getting some of the Perfects in F/F2; it really is brutal without practice mode, lol. Fortunately, I was at least aware that if I got into the habit of saving a song for later, that later would never actually arrive. I always made sure to play troubling charts like Miku-Miku at least once a day, with no real expectations going in, and I was slowly able to tip the meter of progress in my favor. 

 

On 12/1/2022 at 11:29 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

I hope PPD ends up being worthwhile! I've thought about downloading it myself, but I'm not really sure if my cheap laptop can handle it. If I had a beefier setup, I'd also be tempted to grab the Eden Project mod for Mega Mix+ (for the fun custom charts) and maybe Project Heartbeat.

Unfortunately, there were no ports of F2's Intense Voice to PPD, so that plan was a bust. ? PPD and MM+ on PC should still be stellar resources for FT players though, based on the practice charts I've seen on hisokeee's channel.

 

On 12/1/2022 at 11:29 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

I couldn't find the picture to include in the original post, but there's also a visual indicator of "early", "perfect", and "late" cools that correspond nicely with the timing window. Each cool has a shaded area on the bottom that is slanted upwards (early), slanted downwards (late), or has no slant at all (perfect). Even though it's been right in front of me for as long as I've played the game, I never noticed until I ran into a forum post explaining it a couple months back. Since the "cool" icon is constantly on the move and the slant isn't immediately obvious, it's really hard to gather any useful feedback from it though unless you were to film and play back your runs.

That is insane -- I never would have noticed something like that, even while watching YouTube videos. Besides the general lack of practice modes, my second biggest complaint with a lot of console rhythm games has been the lack of feedback on early and late notes. The rhythm game osu! on PC gives the most detailed and actionable feedback that I have seen in a rhythm game so far. In that game, there is a bar located in the bottom-center of the screen that reacts in real time as you play through the song:

Z15hhfP.gif

This is pretty cool because you not only know if you're early or late, but you can also immediately see to what degree, as the arrow will shift further depending on how far off center you are. Secondly, the game will show you your average error of both early and late notes on the results screen:

Juwf3SH.png

Feedback like this is godlike, because you can run some simple math on the error margins (-8.24 and +5.61 in this case) to find your perfect offset on a per-song basis (which would be around -3ms for this specific song). This makes going for 100% accuracy scores infinitely easier to approach, and saves hours of trial and error. We would all have a lot more F0 plays in our records if Diva games offered us such detailed feedback. 

 

On 11/30/2022 at 2:00 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

#281-305: This one's a monster (you can tell because I made the font size a little bit bigger)! 

This is definitely a monster. Sections like this feel perfectly fit to the arcade controller, as I imagine players would focus on the center while slapping the exterior buttons for the single notes, which I find to be easier for playing fast notes compared to relying on thumb speed. I can see why so much thought had to go into how to approach this section with the DualShock, and without a macro, because my brain immediately shuts down when trying to think about it, lol.

 

On 11/30/2022 at 2:00 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

Instead of perceiving the sequence as a steady stream of notes, I mentally divided the section into multiple adjacent triplets with double notes at their centers (:circle:, (:down:+:left:), :circle:). As ridiculous as it sounds, something clicked because my muscle memory felt those imaginary triplets and thought, "Oh triplets! Yeah, I can play triplets no problem!" Each set of two single notes transformed into the two ends of adjacent triplets which, for some inexplicable reason, felt totally natural to perform. I don't know if there's a name for this phenomenon or if I've even described it in a way that anyone can understand, but I was thrilled to have found a method that might actually work!

This is a pretty neat breakthrough, however. Even better that you were able to account for the beginning of the pattern with some additional trickery. Little mental tricks like this are always nice when you can find them, and even if they aren't actually triples, it doesn't matter as long as it actually works. ?

 

On 11/30/2022 at 2:00 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

#340-358: Without the assistance of the button configuration options, this upcoming section would be extremely difficult to perform. 

This section looks like a beast, regardless of the control method. I can see the logic in it, but the execution is no joke. I can feel my body stiffen up while watching that gif, as if it's recoiling at the thought of the hours of brutal practice it would take to get consistent with these 18 notes, lol. 

 

On 11/30/2022 at 2:00 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

I feel as though I've just discovered my white whale is mortal... 

 

On 11/30/2022 at 2:00 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

We still have a long way to go, but seeing myself deconstruct one of the hardest sections of the chart and actually play it perfectly feels incredible.

These are incredible feelings to experience. To go from barely passing a chart, to finally hitting that tipping point where you realize "Holy shit, I can probably full combo this song" always feels great. It's easy for us to get lost in the failure of our current attempts of a difficult challenge, but as you've shown, taking the time to recognize how far you've come along does wonders for morale.

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The Intense Voice of Hatsune Miku (EXEX) - Update #4

In this update, we'll be breaking down notes 373-465 of The Intense Voice of Hatsune Miku's Extra Extreme chart and testing for proficiency! I'll be playing on PS4's Hatsune Miku: Project DIVA Future Tone, but the chart we'll be analyzing can also be found in Hatsune Miku: Project DIVA Mega Mix (Switch) and Mega Mix+ (PC).

As the next monstrous section looms over the horizon, the seas are growing dark, the chart is getting faster, and the rusty edges I've kept concealed beneath a thin veneer of confidence are starting to break out in unsightly patches across the hull of my ship. Section #427-447 threatens to cut my voyage short with a pattern that, at the time of writing, I've been unable to consistently play. Like the previous update, I'll be outlining several possible methods I've tried in my attempts to perform this section below.  

Analysis: #373-465
If you'd like to follow along with my analysis, I've linked a helpful reference video here! Each set of numbers below corresponds to a grouping of notes contained in the chart (chronologically ordered). A combo count will be displayed in the reference video that you can use to identify any particular grouping of notes should you wish to skip around.

Button Configuration Recap:

:l1: = (:triangle:+:square:)
:r1: = (:cross:+:circle:)
:l2: = (:triangle:+:square:+:cross:+:circle:)
:r2: = (:triangle:+:square:+:cross:+:circle:)

#373-380: Today's section opens with a high-speed warmup that carries its momentum throughout the rest of this update. It can be easy to get overwhelmed or exhausted when practicing high speed sections like this, but it's important not to get discouraged. Pacing yourself is key!

At #373-375, we've got a basic triplet that I play by alternating between both hands. I tap :circle:, then :right:, and :circle:. We then have single notes from #376-379 consisting of two :cross: notes and two :circle: notes. I use my right hand to quickly tap all four, but it may be less exhausting to alternate between both hands. With an extended slider note at #380, I slide the right analog stick to the left and briefly hold for the max slide bonus.

#381-388: Much like the previous section, we encounter a basic triplet at #381-383 that I play by tapping :cross:, then :down:, and :cross:. For the single notes that follow, I tap :square: twice and :triangle: twice (alternating between both hands is optional). At #388, I again slide the right analog stick to the left and briefly hold for the max slide bonus.

#389-397: We're picking up the pace with two basic triplets this time. At #389-391, I tap :triangle:, then :up:, and :triangle:. At #392-394, I similarly tap :square:, then :left:, and :square:. I then tap :cross: twice for the single notes that follow. At #397, I slide the left analog stick to the right and briefly hold for the max slide bonus.


#398-406: Like the previous section, we've got two more basic triplets that I play by tapping :circle:, then :right:, and :circle: followed by :cross:, then :down:, and :cross:. I tap :square: twice for the single notes that follow and slide the right analog stick to the left and briefly hold for the max slide bonus.   

 

#407-426: Blending speed with complexity, this section is a rare instance of slider note integration into triplet patterns.

 

iONoQAa.png  

 

Method #1 (what you probably "should" do): If you can, it's best to play the complex triplets in this section the same way you would play any of the other triplets we've seen up to this point. By that, I mean you should use one hand to perform the 1st and 3rd inputs of each triplet while leaving the 2nd input for your other hand.

As such, at #407, you would press :up:, then :square:, and :down:. At #410, you would press :up:, then :square:, then slide the left analog stick to the right. At #412, you would then repeat the inputs you performed at #407-409 before sliding the left analog stick to the right and briefly holding for the max slide bonus. 

 

Likewise, at #417, you would press :circle:, then :down:, and :square:. At #410, you would press :circle:, then :down:, then slide the right analog stick to the left. At #422, you would then repeat the inputs you performed at #417-419 before sliding the left analog stick to the right and briefly holding for the max slide bonus.

Method #2 (what I actually do): At some point in my DIVA career, I started to get lazy when performing complex triplets and came up with a variety of alternate performance methods to prevent me from getting exhausted. Some of these are risky and often produce sloppy results (low cools), so I can't really recommend them. Either way, I'll briefly describe some of them below using this section as a template. 

At #407 and #412, I press :up:, then slide my right thumb across :square: and :cross:.
Likewise, at #417 I slide my right thumb across :circle: and :cross: before pressing :left:
Finally, at #422, I use my left thumb to perform a 180 by sliding across :right::down:, and :left:

 

#427447: We're here at last... the main event of today's update and the bane of my existence this past week. 

 

b1ocsxy.png

 

Before we look at a few ways to play this pattern, I'd like to cover the first few notes, which I always perform the same way.
At #427, I press L1 to perform the double note, tap :cross: for the single note that follows, and slide the left analog stick to the right. At #430, I tap :cross:, L1, and :cross: before sliding the left analog stick to the right for the slider note. I tap :cross: one last time at #434 before we reach the monster at #435-447.

What makes #435-447 so difficult is the integration of double-notes into such a high speed pattern. Ordinarily, you'd need two-hands to perform these double-notes on a DS4 unless you were to take advantage of the button configuration options or use an extra finger. Having to juggle the rest of the single notes alongside these double-notes at such high speeds requires some out-of-the-box thinking. Let's dive in!    

Method #1: I took a cue from my recent success in the last update by returning to one of the videos that included a button viewer to see how other players played this section on a DS4. Unfortunately, I haven't been able to replicate what I found...

In the video I linked above, the player, starting at #435, plays each (:triangle:+:square:) double note by pressing both of the corresponding face buttons, presumably with two fingers. The player then presses :down:, then :square:, then :down: again before repeating this set of inputs from #439-446 and sliding the right analog stick to the right. 

By using this method, you're alternating between both hands throughout the entire pattern's duration which, I'd imagine, promotes consistency and helps you get a good sense of speed to avoid desyncs between your fingers. The problem, for me anyway, is being able to alternate my right hand's input between (:triangle:+:square:) and :square: while also alternating input from my left hand. As much as I've tried, I couldn't figure out how to perform these inputs even once successfully (never mind consistently), so I decided to experiment a little to see if I could find something easier to perform.

Method #2: As I began experimenting, I started trying to play #435, along with every subsequent double-note, with a quick tap of L1 to take advantage of my current button configuration. From there, I tap :down:, then slide my thumb across :square: and :cross:. I then repeat these inputs twice from #439-446 before sliding the left analog stick to the right.

To my surprise, it didn't take long before I was able to successfully play the section, but consistency never really seemed to develop no matter how long I practiced. I often go too fast or too slow (it's difficult to get a sense of how fast I'm going with method #2's inputs), overlap inputs, or perform inputs out of order altogether. If my experience with last update's section #281-305 taught me anything, it's that I might be better off practicing methods that are more reliable, like method #1, even if they prove to be more difficult to physically perform. 

The 75 emoticon limit strikes again! 
F
or the rest of this post, we'll be using these symbols instead: ↓,→,↑,← (to represent 
dpad input) and 〇, ❑, ▲, X. 

Method #3: Still determined to find an "easy" shortcut to success. I persisted with a modified version of method #2 where I'd tap L1 at #435 before rolling my thumb along X and  and, with my left hand, tapping ↓ on the dpad. I'd repeat these inputs from #439-446 before sliding the left analog stick to the right.

After several hours of practice, I couldn't develop consistency with either methods #2 or #3. I suspect I need to stop using L1 for this pattern and focus my efforts on either trying method #1 some more or on finding a way to perform this section using only the face buttons and dpad. When I've finally developed consistency, I'll revisit this section in the next update. In the meantime, I'll be wracking my brain for new ideas and giving method #1 more attention.

#448-456: Hot on the heels of the previous section, I quickly tap R1 (to perform each double note) four times starting at #448. I then tap X, , X, and  before sliding the right analog stick to the left and briefly holding to earn the max slide bonus (note that the spam at #452-455 is deceptively fast).

#457-465: As this section comes to a close, I tap L1 (to perform each double note) four times starting at #448. I then quickly tap , and  before sliding the left analog stick to the right and briefly holding to earn the max slide bonus (note that the spam at #461-464, like #452-455 before it, is deceptively fast).
 
Proficiency Test #4 - Not Cleared (Yet!) 
At the end of each chunk of analysis, I normally include a video of me clearing the section we've just analyzed three times consecutively in practice mode. However, because I haven't managed to consistently perform #427-447, I've decided to instead include a 5 minute video* of me practicing parts of this section so you can see where I stand. In the video, I do a quick pass over all of the notes in this section along with the notes in the upcoming update before spending time focusing specifically on this update's section. I wrap up with some worn out #427-447 practice using method #2.

Because this section is being performed in practice mode, note that the combo count has been reset and will not match the numbers included in the section above. This may make identifying each section slightly more difficult.

*Note: Video is linked here instead of being posted outright due to some unusual PSNP editing obstacles!

 

Closing Thoughts
Any worthwhile voyage is accompanied by obstacles and setbacks. I've been expecting resistance for as long as I've planned to Perfect this chart, so I'm not too bothered by my failure to learn #373-465 in the time I allotted myself at the end of the last update (6-7 days). I underestimated the amount of practice I'd need to put in to consistently clear this section and possibly spent a little too much time procrastinating in other games. :P 

I'll spend another 6-7 days practicing this section along with the section I had originally planned for my 5th update, #466-586, and see where my progress stands after that. If I'm not able to perform #373-465 or the next update's section within that time frame, then I'll postpone the next update until I have something new to report!

This means that the next update, provided I make progress, will be posted in the next 6-7 days. If not, then I'll be disappearing for a little bit while I spend some extra time practicing. Giving up isn't an option, so you'll hear from me sooner or laterdon't worry!

Thank you for reading and I'll be back for some extra late replies very soon!

Edited by ExistentialSolid
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On 12/4/2022 at 11:51 PM, AihaLoveleaf said:

That is insane -- I never would have noticed something like that, even while watching YouTube videos. Besides the general lack of practice modes, my second biggest complaint with a lot of console rhythm games has been the lack of feedback on early and late notes. The rhythm game osu! on PC gives the most detailed and actionable feedback that I have seen in a rhythm game so far. In that game, there is a bar located in the bottom-center of the screen that reacts in real time as you play through the song:

Z15hhfP.gif

This is pretty cool because you not only know if you're early or late, but you can also immediately see to what degree, as the arrow will shift further depending on how far off center you are. Secondly, the game will show you your average error of both early and late notes on the results screen:

Juwf3SH.png

Feedback like this is godlike, because you can run some simple math on the error margins (-8.24 and +5.61 in this case) to find your perfect offset on a per-song basis (which would be around -3ms for this specific song). This makes going for 100% accuracy scores infinitely easier to approach, and saves hours of trial and error. We would all have a lot more F0 plays in our records if Diva games offered us such detailed feedback. 


I wish more rhythm games riffed off each other in the same way that other genre leaders do. Actionable feedback, practice mode, calibration settings, button remappingfeatures like this should be the bare minimum from any competitive rhythm game. Having a bar at the bottom of the screen that reacts to my input's timing would make it so much easier to get a feel for how fast or slow I'm going when I can't otherwise tell.

One of the most unfortunate things about DIVA charting is that the visual arrangement of notes in a flashy or otherwise unusual way can artificially inflate the difficulty. The ending, where the notes are twisting into the shape of wings is a prime example. It's brutal to tell how fast or slow you're going with the notes scattered across the screen. You kind of just have to poke around in the dark until you happen to get the timing right. Had the notes been arranged in clean horizontal sequences (where you can more easily gauge your sense of speed), I suspect the difficulty would drop dramatically.  

Not to get too sidetracked, but I've thought about getting into osu! for years. High level players reporting wrist pain is what ultimately scared me away. It looks like a blast though (I played a lot of Elite Beat Agents on DS when I was younger which seems to share a lot of osu!'s DNA).    

Also, what is this mini-GIF sorcery?! Look like I've still got a lot to learn on the presentation front.

 

On 12/4/2022 at 11:51 PM, AihaLoveleaf said:

Unfortunately, there were no ports of F2's Intense Voice to PPD, so that plan was a bust. 1f613.png PPD and MM+ on PC should still be stellar resources for FT players though, based on the practice charts I've seen on hisokeee's channel.


Dang. ? I'm sure you'll manage to get F2's Intense Voice perfect with time, but it sucks to hear you won't have an easy way to practice the chart (other than looping sections of YouTube videos or using slow-mo). I wonder if PPD has any of X's charts. It may not be a total wash if it you're able to practice some of the harder charts through there since X doesn't have a practice mode either. 
  

On 12/4/2022 at 11:51 PM, AihaLoveleaf said:

This is definitely a monster. Sections like this feel perfectly fit to the arcade controller, as I imagine players would focus on the center while slapping the exterior buttons for the single notes, which I find to be easier for playing fast notes compared to relying on thumb speed. I can see why so much thought had to go into how to approach this section with the DualShock, and without a macro, because my brain immediately shuts down when trying to think about it, lol.


Even with years to think about it, I'm still shutting down trying to process sections of this chart. ? I've been running into some unexpected hurdles with some of the next section's patterns in particular. They looked perfectly playable from afar, but when I'm trying to execute, my fingers go "no thanks." 
 

On 12/4/2022 at 11:51 PM, AihaLoveleaf said:

This is a pretty neat breakthrough, however. Even better that you were able to account for the beginning of the pattern with some additional trickery. Little mental tricks like this are always nice when you can find them, and even if they aren't actually triples, it doesn't matter as long as it actually works. 1f61b.png


Mental tricks are so few and far between for me that I always get really excited when that burst of inspiration hits! I can't even really remember the last time a mental trick carried me through a section, but I bet I'd still be trying out different methods had it not clicked then and there.  
 

On 12/4/2022 at 11:51 PM, AihaLoveleaf said:

This section looks like a beast, regardless of the control method. I can see the logic in it, but the execution is no joke. I can feel my body stiffen up while watching that gif, as if it's recoiling at the thought of the hours of brutal practice it would take to get consistent with these 18 notes, lol. 


The execution definitely isn't playing around. I sort of skipped over the amount of time I'd spent practicing this section when I covered it in update #3, but it felt like ages. In fact, much of the time I spent practicing both this section and #281-305 took place while I was still writing updates #1 and #2. I played it totally differently at first with a much heavier emphasis on my right hand. Timing felt funky though so I checked to see if I could play it by alternating between each hand and, sure enough, that little change made it feel much more doable.   
 

On 12/4/2022 at 11:51 PM, AihaLoveleaf said:

These are incredible feelings to experience. To go from barely passing a chart, to finally hitting that tipping point where you realize "Holy shit, I can probably full combo this song" always feels great. It's easy for us to get lost in the failure of our current attempts of a difficult challenge, but as you've shown, taking the time to recognize how far you've come along does wonders for morale.

 

I don't know about you, but whenever I hit that tipping point in a chart I've been really pushing on, I enter a feverish state where the only thing in the world that matters to me is that full combo. My hour count starts to sky rocket and my eyes may as well be made of glass. Right now, I'm still wading through practice mode muck, spending a couple hours a day learning to play each section, but when the day comes that I play that ending perfectly, I'll be in another world until I earn that perfect.

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On 08/12/2022 at 5:18 AM, ExistentialSolid said:

#427447: We're here at last... the main event of today's update and the bane of my existence this past week. 

 

b1ocsxy.png

 

Before we look at a few ways to play this pattern, I'd like to cover the first few notes, which I always perform the same way.
At #427, I press L1 to perform the double note, tap :cross: for the single note that follows, and slide the left analog stick to the right. At #430, I tap :cross:, L1, and :cross: before sliding the left analog stick to the right for the slider note. I tap :cross: one last time at #434 before we reach the monster at #435-447.

 

 

May I ask, is there any point when learning how to do this... That you just think maybe I should be learning the piano, or something? lol

 

I also think watching the gif, might it not be better to just tore memorise the button order in its entirety on this part of trying to work out what is going on the screen here. Although I think that is (for me anywa) what I find a bit annoying about these Diva games is half the time these notes are not making notes / good enough feedback to make me feel like I am playing any part of the tune

 

I guess, that's just me though lol

Edited by enaysoft
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14 hours ago, ExistentialSolid said:

Not to get too sidetracked, but I've thought about getting into osu! for years. High level players reporting wrist pain is what ultimately scared me away. It looks like a blast though (I played a lot of Elite Beat Agents on DS when I was younger which seems to share a lot of osu!'s DNA).    

You know how you see frequent warning posts on these forums for Genshin Impact and Elder Scrolls Online? osu! is basically the rhythm game equivalent of those two games -- once you get sucked in, it's unlikely we hear from you again for your next 2000+ gaming hours. It's highly competitive, addictive, and anybody can find their niche to shine in. Songs not only have Global Top 50 rankings, but Country Rankings, and even individual rankings for mods. Imagine Diva songs with leaderboards for each Challenge Item, and each combination of Challenge Items -- it's something like that.

 

RSI's are a big issue, and end a lot of osu! careers at low and high levels. The game allows you to restart songs with a single button -- not pressing :start::down: and :cross:, but an actual single-button restart, which makes it easy to binge a single chart for hours - often to your detriment - chasing the adrenaline rush of Full Combo or a 100% accuracy play. It's bound to lead a lot of players to prolonged or permanent injury, as you've mentioned with wrist pain complaints from high level players. 

 

All of that is probably to say don't do it! ? At least not while you still care about trophies and experiencing a variety of games. It'd be a different story if you were active in the game before getting into trophies, and were just playing for maintenance and fun, but the hours you'd have to put in right now are probably better spent on Diva, other rhythm games, and your backlog. 

 

14 hours ago, ExistentialSolid said:

Also, what is this mini-GIF sorcery?! Look like I've still got a lot to learn on the presentation front.

ezgif has cropping options that you can make use of after uploading your mp4. I made use of it to crop the gifs in my current forum signature, and you can easily use it on gameplay clips if you want to create a focal point. Also, ezgif won't put a watermark on it like clideo did. ?

 

On 12/7/2022 at 2:18 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

#427447: We're here at last... the main event of today's update and the bane of my existence this past week. 

Those :cross::square::cross: triples are where my brain officially nopes out, lol. FT's triples are not something that F/F2 prepared me for, which I found out when I recently downloaded an Edit chart created as a "port" of Arifureta Sekai Seifuku to F 2nd. Triples like :circle::cross::square: (#253-255) and :triangle::square::cross: (#256-258) are probably bread'n'butter patterns for FT players at a 9★+ level, but my F/F2 brain struggles to translate them into inputs for my hands to execute in time. By the time Chance Time kicks in (#659-725), forget about it. ? It's comical how even FT's 9 stars already dwarf 2D Dream Fever and Intense Voice, because it took a while for me to even crank out a Standard rating on that Edit.

 

On 12/7/2022 at 2:18 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

Method #2 (what I actually do): At some point in my DIVA career, I started to get lazy when performing complex triplets and came up with a variety of alternate performance methods to prevent me from getting exhausted. Some of these are risky and often produce sloppy results (low cools), so I can't really recommend them.

As mentioned above, F/F2 doesn't have these sorts of triples, but I can still relate to your laziness in a way. The "proper" way to play F/F2 charts is "probably" to fully alternate as much as possible, but I found my coordination tanked if I was alternating buttons for 1/4 and 1/8 strings that eventually led into note switches, so I generally try to play one-handed as much as possible until something forces me to use two, like an arrow note or 1/16ths. The downside is that I had to spend extra time building up one-handed speed compared to players already comfortable just fully alternating everything, but it did eventually work out at least. 

 

On 12/7/2022 at 2:18 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

Any worthwhile voyage is accompanied by obstacles and setbacks. I've been expecting resistance for as long as I've planned to Perfect this chart, so I'm not too bothered by my failure to learn #373-465 in the time I allotted myself at the end of the last update (6-7 days). I underestimated the amount of practice I'd need to put in to consistently clear this section and possibly spent a little too much time procrastinating in other games. :P 

Bound to hit an obstacle eventually with a chart this demanding. You'll get there, though. A lot can happen in a week of Diva, so I'm sure we'll be seeing a positive update soon enough. ✊

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The Intense Voice of Hatsune Miku (EXEX) - Update #5

In this update, we'll be revisiting notes 373-465 of The Intense Voice of Hatsune Miku's Extra Extreme chart and testing once more for proficiency! I'll be playing on PS4's Hatsune Miku: Project DIVA Future Tone, but the chart we'll be analyzing can also be found in Hatsune Miku: Project DIVA Mega Mix (Switch) and Mega Mix+ (PC).

While I reassess my proficiency over the section we covered in the previous update, I'm going to be focusing in specifically on #435-456 today as we reexamine a few core sections of the chart. After failing Proficiency Test #4 last week, I've gone back to the drawing board determined to find a solution to my consistency troubles. Let's see how it all shook out! 

RE: Analysis: #435-456
If you'd like to follow along with my analysis, I've linked a helpful reference video here! Each set of numbers below corresponds to a grouping of notes contained in the chart (chronologically ordered). A combo count will be displayed in the reference video that you can use to identify any particular grouping of notes should you wish to skip around.

Button Configuration Recap:

:l1: = (:triangle:+:square:)
:r1: = (:cross:+:circle:)
:l2: = (:triangle:+:square:+:cross:+:circle:)
:r2: = (:triangle:+:square:+:cross:+:circle:)

#435-447 (equivalent to #63-75 in the practice mode gif below): We're still up against last week's monster. I failed to make a breakthrough in the last update, but let's find out if another week of practice can turn things around...  

 

I8BZwD1.png

 

I believed, at the end of the last update, that I would need to start practicing this section without the use of :l1: (mapped to :triangle:+:square:) because I couldn't find a way to incorporate this tempting shortcut into the mix without seriously compromising my rate of consistency. Let me explain what I mean as I cover a bit of recap.

Suppose at #435 (#63 in the gif) I were to tap :l1: with my left hand with the intention of alternating between both hands for the pattern's duration. I would need to tap :cross: with my right hand, which isn't especially difficult, but then I'd have to then tap :left: with my left before again tapping :cross: with my right (performed in sets of three between #435-446 followed by an extended slider note at #447). At such high speeds, I don't know how to switch my left hand from :l1: to :left: quickly enough to perform this pattern while also sandwiching an :cross: with my right hand between every input. I haven't built up the dexterity to perform this sort of input and there's little else in the game that could have prepared me to play like this on a DS4. 

Okay, so if we can't cleanly alternate between both hands while also using :l1:, what options would we have that still includes this button? Well, if we accept that things are going to get messy, we can try performing two consecutive inputs with the left hand before performing two more consecutive inputs with the right hand. I described in the last update method #2 which involved tapping :l1: and :down: with my left hand before rolling over :square: and :cross: with my right thumb (performed in sets of three between #435-446 followed by an extended slider note at #447). While these inputs aren't terribly difficult to perform, it's difficult to match the required speed since I can't tell how fast or slow I'm going. Going just quickly enough without any misinput seemed to happen about 5% of the time even after hours of practice which is nowhere near where it needs to be if I want to Perfect this chart.

If we abandon :l1: and try to perform the pattern like the player in the video with a gamepad viewer, then we would need to perform the double-notes by pressing :triangle:+:square: with, I assume, two fingers on my right hand. We would then tap :down: with my left hand, tap :square: with my right, and again tap :down: with my left (method #1 performed in sets of three between #435-446 followed by an extended slider note at #447). Remember how I didn't know how to switch my left hand from :l1: to :left: earlier? Well, my right hand isn't exactly any better. I couldn't figure out to alternate my right hand between :triangle:+:square: and :square: quickly enough while also alternating input from my left hand.

Feeling frustrated and confused... I had an epiphany. 

Method #4: While practicing method #1, I was trying to alternate between :triangle:+:square: and :square: with two fingers (thumb and index), but then I realized, "Wait... do I really need to use two fingers to play these inputs?" 

I lifted up my left thumb and hovered it over the face buttons before I discovered: if I were to use my left thumb held facing towards the right, I might be unable to press :triangle: without also pressing :square:. Hear me out. If you try to tap :triangle: with the tip of your left thumb, the middle of your thumb will likely rest on the :square: button even if you don't intend for it to do so. So what if we took advantage of that? Instead of all the mental gymnastics involved in alternating between two fingers for the double-notes and one finger for the single notes, what if I used one thumb and simply alternated between :triangle: and :square:? Except, every time I tap :triangle:, I "accidentally" tap :square: alongside it. Alternating these fairly basic inputs with an :cross: from my right hand is surely a lot easier, right? I mean, I get an added consistency boost that comes with alternating between both hands and everything. It's perfect!
 

tumblr-o16n2k-Blp-X1ta3qyvo1-1280-50

 

Before I knew it, the entire pattern was being performed using only the face buttons. No dpad or shoulder buttons. I played the section flawlessly about three or four times consecutively in practice mode before I set the game aside and turned in for the night (it was getting last and I was exhausted). I felt as though I'd found the perfect solution to my troubles and slept like a log with plans to film my fourth Proficiency Test the next day.

When the following evening rolled around, I sat in my chairconfidence through the roof and... the madness of the previous evening didn't click anymore. No matter what I did, my left thumb couldn't perform the inputs it had done effortlessly the night before. It was like it had never happened at all.

I never performed those inputs successfully again and dragged myself back to the drawing board.

 

__________

 

Method #5: Discouraged, I decided to practice method #2 again (tapping :l1: and :down: with my left hand and rolling over :square: and :cross: with my right thumb). I figured that a 5% success rate was better than nothing, so why not sink a little more time into it and see where I end up? Eventually, I had an epiphany that freakishly mirrored the one I had days prior: "Wait... do I really need to use one finger (thumb) to perform the face button inputs?" 

I tried instead using my right index finger to tap :square: while my right thumb was responsible for :cross:.

By doing this, I was now using the same fingers on both hands to perform the pattern. An index (:l1:) and a thumb (:down:) from my left hand followed by an index (:square:) and thumb (:cross:) on my right hand (performed in sets of three between #435-446 followed by an extended slider note at #447). Within an hour of practice, my consistency shot up from 5% to around 30%. Most of my mistakes resulted from misinput, but these misinputs were both perceptible and correctable with more practice (it's easy for me to accidentally sync taps from my left hand and press both inputs simultaneously at high speed).

To give you an idea of what playing this pattern is like with this new method, I'd like to run through a short demonstration that almost anyone could do with nothing more than a nearby flat surface (a desk, chair, etc).
 
1. Close both hands and gently rest them on a nearby flat surface.
2. Extend only your thumb and index finger on both hands.
3. Tap your left index against the flat surface followed by your left thumb.
4. Tap your right index against the flat surface followed by your right thumb. 
5. Perform steps #3 and #4 again, but try to make to make the sound of a galloping horse.
6. If you hear the gallop, gallop three times and you're playing the pattern exactly as I've learned to play it! 

#448-456 (covered in previous update, but modified): Because my right index finger is hanging out with the face buttons during #435-447, it isn't available to tap :r1: four times for the upcoming double-notes. I instead use my middle finger to perform these inputs followed by the quick :cross::left::cross::left: spam I mentioned in update #4.   

Proficiency Test #4 - Passed!
At the end of each chunk of analysis, I include a video of me clearing the section we've just analyzed three times consecutively in practice mode. In the last update, I failed to pass this test due to my inability to consistently perform #435-447, but I'm back for a rematchBecause this section is being performed in practice mode, note that the combo count has been reset and will not match the numbers included in the section above. This may make identifying each section slightly more difficult.

It's kinda surreal. I mentioned in my "Plan of Attack" update that #435-447 might be the "hardest" section to play (at least insofar as knowing "how" to play it), but here I am today performing it. My consistency could still use some work, but I'm relieved to have finally passed my proficiency test and shift my focus onto the sections beyond. 

 


Closing Thoughts
We only have two sections left to cover before I begin actual full combo attempts! The next update may take some time considering it features a lot of brutal patterns (I'm expecting 1-2 weeks), but I'll be back as soon as I've pulled it off! The final section will likely require a minimum of 2-3 weeks of practice at my current pace, so I've decided that, to make use of this window of inactivity, I'm going to go ahead and begin the next poll using our new nomination list as soon as the next update is posted. If you have a game you'd like to nominate before the poll begins, this is your last chance to speak up!

Over on the "Community Events" side of the forums, I'm also taking part in a member interview! I originally signed up waaaay back in 2020 before I started up my checklist, so it's exciting to finally get selected (I couldn't imagine a more fitting time). If you have any questions you'd like to ask me, questions can be submitted from now until December 21st! 

Thank you for reading! I'll be back soon for some extra late replies!

Edited by ExistentialSolid
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On 12/10/2022 at 8:36 PM, enaysoft said:

May I ask, is there any point when learning how to do this... That you just think maybe I should be learning the piano, or something? lol

 

I also think watching the gif, might it not be better to just tore memorise the button order in its entirety on this part of trying to work out what is going on the screen here. Although I think that is (for me anywa) what I find a bit annoying about these Diva games is half the time these notes are not making notes / good enough feedback to make me feel like I am playing any part of the tune

 

I guess, that's just me though lol


For me, this whole endeavor is about closure. I've spent 1300+ hours over the past 5 years (not counting any of the time I've spent with F, F 2nd, X, or Dreamy Theater Extend) really trying to push myself in Project DIVA: Future Tone. This one chart is all that stands between me and a clean sweep of everything the game has to offer in terms of difficulty. Everything I've accomplished in the years since I gave up on this chart have kinda just... felt hollow. I'd earn some difficult platinum or perform some challenging feat and think "this feels nice, but I bet getting the perfect on Intense Voice EXEX would have felt even better..." It's as though, in my mind, everything else lives in the shadow of this chart. I've had enough and I want to destroy it once and for all so I can move on.

As for the section itself, I'm not trying to decipher what's happening on screen. I'm trying to figure out how to play it with a DS4. Many potential performance methods are either physically improbable or far beyond the scope of what my fingers are capable of doing without dozens/hundreds of hours of additional practice. Since this game was designed to be played on an arcade cabinet, players like me sometimes have to come up with clever ways to work around the DS4's limitations if we want to stand any chance of playing along.

That said, I know I haven't done the best job explaining what's going on and that I've insisted on stretching 3 minutes of gameplay into a 7+ part update series, but I'm determined to finish this even if I lose everyone else along the way. ? This is ultimately between me and my white whale.

 

On 12/11/2022 at 11:45 AM, AihaLoveleaf said:

You know how you see frequent warning posts on these forums for Genshin Impact and Elder Scrolls Online? osu! is basically the rhythm game equivalent of those two games -- once you get sucked in, it's unlikely we hear from you again for your next 2000+ gaming hours. It's highly competitive, addictive, and anybody can find their niche to shine in. Songs not only have Global Top 50 rankings, but Country Rankings, and even individual rankings for mods. Imagine Diva songs with leaderboards for each Challenge Item, and each combination of Challenge Items -- it's something like that.

 

RSI's are a big issue, and end a lot of osu! careers at low and high levels. The game allows you to restart songs with a single button -- not pressing :start::down: and :cross:, but an actual single-button restart, which makes it easy to binge a single chart for hours - often to your detriment - chasing the adrenaline rush of Full Combo or a 100% accuracy play. It's bound to lead a lot of players to prolonged or permanent injury, as you've mentioned with wrist pain complaints from high level players. 

 

All of that is probably to say don't do it! 1f61b.png At least not while you still care about trophies and experiencing a variety of games. It'd be a different story if you were active in the game before getting into trophies, and were just playing for maintenance and fun, but the hours you'd have to put in right now are probably better spent on Diva, other rhythm games, and your backlog. 

 

Don't worry, as tempting as osu! sounds, I'm not planning to sink into the clutches of another highly competitive rhythm game anytime soon (especially one with risk of wrist issues). The bite-sized commitments of smaller console-based rhythm games are more my speed until I find something that clicks with me as much as DIVA managed to. That day may not come for a long time though considering I've tried most of the remaining big players on console and didn't really enjoy them. ?

Speaking of DIVA though, I did try to give Project Sekai a fair shake on mobile awhile back, but it doesn't feel great on a small iPhone and I think my "thumbs only" preference is only going to carry me so far before I start to crumble (I dropped off around lvl 24 on Expert). I'd probably need a tablet if I were to venture much further into mobile rhythm games without putting myself at a serious disadvantage.  
 

On 12/11/2022 at 11:45 AM, AihaLoveleaf said:

ezgif has cropping options that you can make use of after uploading your mp4. I made use of it to crop the gifs in my current forum signature, and you can easily use it on gameplay clips if you want to create a focal point. Also, ezgif won't put a watermark on it like clideo did. 1f61c.png

 

Thanks for letting me know! I'll take note in case I try using ezgif or clideo in the future.

Up to this point, I've been using the linked reference video by tsubasata1109 as the source for all my gifs, but imgur and other video-to-gif sites aren't allowing me to use the video anymore (unsure whether it's related to music copyright or if someone requested that one of the gifs be taken down on imgur since they're all public). I'm using my proficiency videos instead for future gifs, but I might be able to work around my issue by downloading the reference YouTube video directly and uploading the video as an mp4 to a site like ezgif.  
 

On 12/11/2022 at 11:45 AM, AihaLoveleaf said:

Those :cross::square::cross: triples are where my brain officially nopes out, lol. FT's triples are not something that F/F2 prepared me for, which I found out when I recently downloaded an Edit chart created as a "port" of Arifureta Sekai Seifuku to F 2nd. Triples like :circle::cross::square: (#253-255) and :triangle::square::cross: (#256-258) are probably bread'n'butter patterns for FT players at a 9★+ level, but my F/F2 brain struggles to translate them into inputs for my hands to execute in time. By the time Chance Time kicks in (#659-725), forget about it. 1f606.png It's comical how even FT's 9 stars already dwarf 2D Dream Fever and Intense Voice, because it took a while for me to even crank out a Standard rating on that Edit.

 

Complex triplets like :circle::cross::square: or :triangle::square::cross: might be bread'n'butter patterns at high level FT play, but they're still tough to perform, especially at high speeds! When I hit the point where I'm too tired to play optimally, shortcuts like :right::cross::square: or :up::square::cross: really cut me some slack since neither thumb has to commute very far. Classic triplets like :circle::circle::circle: or :triangle::triangle::triangle: are more fun to play in the meantime, but I'm sure you'll be able to adapt quickly once you're up against the more complex stuff. That said, I've always been curious why triplets rarely deviate from a handful of preset arcade-friendly patterns. I don't think there are triplets in any Project DIVA game that look like :triangle::cross::circle: or :square::circle::triangle: for example.

Arifureta Sekai Seifuku on Extreme is actually one of my favorite charts! It's great warmup material and the complex triplets feel slow enough for me to play normally without resorting to shortcuts. ? It's no pushover though, so I wouldn't feel discouraged considering you haven't had much experience with complex triplets yet. 2D Dream Fever (F 2nd) and Intense Voice (F 2nd) look like they go toe-to-toe with Arifureta when it comes down to raw speed, so all you really need is the technical experience to start shredding this chart to pieces.   
 

On 12/11/2022 at 11:45 AM, AihaLoveleaf said:

As mentioned above, F/F2 doesn't have these sorts of triples, but I can still relate to your laziness in a way. The "proper" way to play F/F2 charts is "probably" to fully alternate as much as possible, but I found my coordination tanked if I was alternating buttons for 1/4 and 1/8 strings that eventually led into note switches, so I generally try to play one-handed as much as possible until something forces me to use two, like an arrow note or 1/16ths. The downside is that I had to spend extra time building up one-handed speed compared to players already comfortable just fully alternating everything, but it did eventually work out at least. 


Even on DS4, that same sort of one-handed dominance comes naturally for most players. My right hand used to always do the heavy lifting until my left hand slowly started catching up in dexterity. Nowadays, I two-hand as much as possible, but I have a lot of trouble alternating inputs when I see conjoined sets of three. For example, if I see a string of notes that looks like this: :circle::circle::circle::triangle::triangle::triangle:

My automatic response is to play it improperly by pressing :circle::right::circle::triangle::up::triangle: instead of evenly distributing the work between both hands. Starting triplets with my left hand can also feel really dicey if I haven't practiced extensively beforehand. 

One benefit of having learned PDDTE's Intense Voice chart in prep for when you play the Dreamy Theater games is that you've probably already built up a lot of speed for your non-dominant hand. There aren't many spams faster than that even in FT's catalogue. In fact, only a couple come to mind right away: 2D Dream Fever (#606-621) and Betty the Liar (mess at 2:31). 
 

On 12/11/2022 at 11:45 AM, AihaLoveleaf said:

Bound to hit an obstacle eventually with a chart this demanding. You'll get there, though. A lot can happen in a week of Diva, so I'm sure we'll be seeing a positive update soon enough. 270a.png

 

I think this chart may be a case of "oops, all obstacles" but it wouldn't have stuck with me for so long if it were anything less. Fingers crossed update #6 is out in the next week alongside proficiency test #5 (I'd be happy enough if it's out before the end of the year though)! I still have a long way to go. ✊

Edited by ExistentialSolid
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So I've been lurking this thread since you came back, and I wanted to pop in and say, you do a good job of explaining. It just that the level you're playing at is so far above anything I've even considered attempting that I'm sort of stuck here with my jaw on the floor, and nothing constructive to add.? Looking forward to you killing your white whale though, and maybe I'll come up with a game for your next poll.?

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14 hours ago, ExistentialSolid said:

Speaking of DIVA though, I did try to give Project Sekai a fair shake on mobile awhile back, but it doesn't feel great on a small iPhone and I think my "thumbs only" preference is only going to carry me so far before I start to crumble (I dropped off around lvl 24 on Expert). I'd probably need a tablet if I were to venture much further into mobile rhythm games without putting myself at a serious disadvantage.  

Project Sekai is such a neat little game. It's uncommon enough for me to see a rhythm game with a story, but to actually see one that contains great story and character development went way beyond my expectations. I was playing on my iPad, which felt pretty good as far as comfortable gameplay goes, but I made the mistake of playing it on the side while going hard with Diva F and F 2nd. I could tell after some time that the amount of repetitive stress I was placing on myself was going to end badly, so I shelved Sekai after a month of play. I did end up around a similar level of play, though; I had gotten my first lv.24 Expert FC before putting the game away. I think I'd like to come back to it in the future, but for now I'll try to keep my rhythm gaming strictly on console.

 

On 12/14/2022 at 3:00 PM, ExistentialSolid said:

Method #4: While practicing method #1, I was trying to alternate between :triangle:+:square: and :square: with two fingers (thumb and index), but then I realized, "Wait... do I really need to use two fingers to play these inputs?" 

Have to love these epiphany moments while working hard on a Diva chart... at least, when the epiphany actually works. ? It felt like you were pretty close to greatness here. Managing that part with only the face buttons -- even if just for one evening -- is pretty ridiculous, and beyond what I can comprehend of one hand, lol, so the temporary burst of skill is still worth giving kudos.

 

The method you settled on feels like one that should be pretty consistent in the long run. No getting finger-tied or brain-tied between :triangle:+:square: and :square:; you have four completely separate buttons to manage instead. Internalizing the "gallop" motion you need to make with both hands, while getting feedback from the game via hitsounds as you tap along will eventually bake this section into your brain as something you perform automatically without even thinking about, so kudos again on finally nailing it in those practice runs. ?

 

Even if you don't feel all the way "there" yet with this part of the chart, I think it's fine. You'll get your consistency when it's time to go for those full combo runs, so, on to the next one!

Edited by AihaLoveleaf
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  • 4 months later...

The man, the myth, the legend has returned! Your dedication to this has me in awe. I truly have no idea how you can keep up up with the button inputs for Hatsune. I just look at the clips you share and just shut down like that is way to much for me to process let alone react to and input the needed buttons.

 

Best of luck slaying this dragon!

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Great to see you back, Mr. Solid. ? I knew you hadn't given up; I figured you were working on those E/N/H charts, and my OCD is satisfied seeing all those zeroes in the right place.

 

Great timing as well, since I've recently started back up with Diva myself. Made progress in both DT 2nd and Extend, though I'd like to make milestones out of both - so I'm holding off on popping any trophies just yet. Also picked up a new Diva fan-game that will last me several hundred hours at minimum, but more on that at a later date. 

 

I think skipping to the last part for now is a nice idea. Considering the absurd complexity of the ending, the practice may help make the part you were struggling with a bit easier. I'll keep tabs on your YouTube channel as well - though I can't subscribe, or else it will ruin the Miku number:

 

S11FeC8.png

Just kidding, I'll subscribe after somebody else does.

 

If there's one bit of advice I can throw out there based on my own adventure with the lesser version of Intense Voice: consider adding some Edit charts to your daily rotation, if you haven't already. Playing songs that were effectively 11/12★ (on the F 2nd scale) like Childish War and Coin Locker Baby really helped to defang the beast of a chart I was faced with. In your case, there may be a setup cost of time or money, depending on whether you go for PPD or MM+ on PC (so that you can play AC-style Edits), but once those Edits are set-up then it's a pretty low-maintenance practice routine—only the 10-15(ish) minutes it would take you to play through your curated selection of Edits once a session.

 

2 hours ago, ExistentialSolid said:

I mentioned in my last update that I would be starting another game selection poll featuring our new nomination list. That poll is now live, months later than intended, and will run from now until the Eternal Prisoner Broadcast has concluded (you may notice there is one notable omission from the poll - I'd rather leave that game for someone else that plans to play it soon. It will be removed from the list once the poll has concluded). 

Left a vote based on whatever I felt had the most interesting gameplay in its trailer. Hang in there with this brutal last stretch of Future Tone! I'll be here for the next update. ?

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