Where did difficultly trophies go?

[BedlamLugosi]

Is it just me or are difficulty related trophies almost extinct in new games. For me the harder the platinum is to achieve the more worth it has. But it seems that for trophies to appeal to the masses they’re heading in the I am Mayo direction.

[Mirrors1118]

But you can play higher difficulty even if the trophy doesn’t require you so.

[MidnightDragon]

Some games still have them.

[HaserPL]

They are locked behind a free DLC, made just for us, completionists.

[ladynadiad]

Weird, seems like plenty of JRPGs still have them for beating on the highest difficulty.  But I think difficulty trophies in games that allow you to carry stuff over into NG+ are pointless anyhow since those just make the game longer without really adding much difficulty.  Many players will just do a first run on the lowest, earn the majority of the trophies and then tackle the difficulty one on a NG+ run with all the best gear to make it easy.

[BedlamLugosi]

50 minutes ago, ladynadiad said:

But I think difficulty trophies in games that allow you to carry stuff over into NG+ are pointless anyhow since those just make the game longer without really adding much difficulty. 

Yep, totally agree.

[Bloodytears1666]

It is really depend on game, is there really worth difficulty scale with NG+ gameplay. The main point to have fun with late gear through the whole game, while maintaining a challenge, and some games, like Last of Us for example do it right, Dark Souls too in some ways. NG+ is a bless of game expanding experience.

[AJ_Radio]

The developers found out they could attract a bigger and more varied audience by making games that are relatively easy that you can play on the easiest setting for the platinum. Games in general are far easier now than they were 10 - 20 years ago, the game mechanics have improved substantially, and everything has basically become streamlined.

 

It's a good reason why I've stuck with older games and indie games because the new stuff just feels boring. The graphics are impressive, and sometimes the themes are quite good (Ghost of Tsushima), but if you look more closely a lot of these giant AAA games are really just a new layer of paint added to a formula that's already been done in the past.

 

These developers feel they need to make a graphical vista that is huge, but they fail to innovate and create interesting content. We're getting games nowadays that are 50 - 100 hour adventures that virtually anybody and their brother can start and finish. Western developers just seem to tack on the same type of content over and over and over, without really doing anything innovative or creative. Eastern developers from the past few years, particularly with stuff like Devil May Cry V and Yakuza, are at least trying stuff that is different. The trophy lists are more interesting, and aren't a walk in the park.

 

Games like Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales are ones that virtually anybody can finish, with a generic, cookie cutter trophy list with padding in the form of collectibles.  The trend of putting the challenging and hard trophies behind DLC is just stupid. You're putting in the amount of work that you had to put in for many AAA PS3 era games a decade ago, but as far as just getting the base game done there are no difficulty related trophies, and nothing is really missable. It really feels just rinse and repeat, and in my opinion the trophy lists fail to grab my attention.

[BedlamLugosi]

4 hours ago, Spaz said:

The developers found out they could attract a bigger and more varied audience by making games that are relatively easy that you can play on the easiest setting for the platinum. Games in general are far easier now than they were 10 - 20 years ago, the game mechanics have improved substantially, and everything has basically become streamlined.

 

It's a good reason why I've stuck with older games and indie games because the new stuff just feels boring. The graphics are impressive, and sometimes the themes are quite good (Ghost of Tsushima), but if you look more closely a lot of these giant AAA games are really just a new layer of paint added to a formula that's already been done in the past.

 

These developers feel they need to make a graphical vista that is huge, but they fail to innovate and create interesting content. We're getting games nowadays that are 50 - 100 hour adventures that virtually anybody and their brother can start and finish. Western developers just seem to tack on the same type of content over and over and over, without really doing anything innovative or creative. Eastern developers from the past few years, particularly with stuff like Devil May Cry V and Yakuza, are at least trying stuff that is different. The trophy lists are more interesting, and aren't a walk in the park.

 

Games like Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales are ones that virtually anybody can finish, with a generic, cookie cutter trophy list with padding in the form of collectibles.  The trend of putting the challenging and hard trophies behind DLC is just stupid. You're putting in the amount of work that you had to put in for many AAA PS3 era games a decade ago, but as far as just getting the base game done there are no difficulty related trophies, and nothing is really missable. It really feels just rinse and repeat, and in my opinion the trophy lists fail to grab my attention.

Yeah even the poster boy for hard modern games ‘dark souls’ is actually incredibly easy if you grind ( a toddler could beat that game if they grind long enough ). I’ve platinum’d most of the yakuza games and I agree, the sheer variety of different things you have to master in those games is ridiculous. Still haven’t platinum’d dmc5 yet ( might be a bit above my pay grade, and my poor fingers couldn’t handle it anymore ).

[Lava_Yuki]

I suppose developers maybe noticed that the trophy hunters chose games based on the platinums and would purposely avoid games where they knew they could not get the platinum for that game. So perhaps to address the issue, they made the trophies easier and removed difficulty related plats. I found this was the case in quite a few games like Tales where Graces F and Hearts R had trophies for beating the final boss on different difficulties, and KH games had trophies for proud and critical modes, but with the newer releases like Tales of Berseria and KH3, there were no such difficulty related trophies. Same with big name titles like Last of Us 2, a much easier plat without the difficulty ones in the first game. 

 

This is just my hunch by the way, whether it's actually true or not. I suspect everything developers do it always going to be related to increasing sales and making more money, so they probably want to target both the casual gamer who wants to play on easy or normal mode, as well the hard core gamers who prefer higher difficulties, and then the gamers who only care about trophies and getting them in the fastest way possible so would probably play on a lower difficulty to speed the process up so they can move onto the next platinum. 

[AJ_Radio]

14 hours ago, Lava_Yuki said:

I suppose developers maybe noticed that the trophy hunters chose games based on the platinums and would purposely avoid games where they knew they could not get the platinum for that game. So perhaps to address the issue, they made the trophies easier and removed difficulty related plats. I found this was the case in quite a few games like Tales where Graces F and Hearts R had trophies for beating the final boss on different difficulties, and KH games had trophies for proud and critical modes, but with the newer releases like Tales of Berseria and KH3, there were no such difficulty related trophies. Same with big name titles like Last of Us 2, a much easier plat without the difficulty ones in the first game. 

 

This is just my hunch by the way, whether it's actually true or not. I suspect everything developers do it always going to be related to increasing sales and making more money, so they probably want to target both the casual gamer who wants to play on easy or normal mode, as well the hard core gamers who prefer higher difficulties, and then the gamers who only care about trophies and getting them in the fastest way possible so would probably play on a lower difficulty to speed the process up so they can move onto the next platinum. 

I have to agree with this for the most part, however trophy hunters as a whole are still a small minority. Ratalalika definitely took note on us, but their constant shoving of incredibly easy lists just sours the experience of feeling satisfaction in earning a platinum.

 

Now with PS5 games, you can play the PS4 versions, buy the PS5 versions and basically auto pop most of the trophies. So the trend of getting easy trophies continues. Looking back, I sort of regret doing Sound Shapes and playing completely trash games like Orc Slayer because easy trophies are the only reason anyone really got them. 
 

Something definitely changed around 2014 - 2016. Knack 2 is far easier to finish than the original Knack. If Killzone: Shadowfall were released today there would be no difficulty related trophies for the base game, and you would only have to play 10 - 20 multiplayer matches. 
 

Final Fantasy XV has an easier base game list than Final Fantasy XIII. Definitely a trend that’s been going on for a long time now.

[PlanetCheat]

I agree with your statement. I've started to target harder trophies more, having previously only wanted quantity over quality. I'll never have enough trophies to be noticed on the leaderboards, so I figured I'd go for harder ones - some of which I eventually give up on. 

 

Of course, that all comes second to enjoying a game, and only getting games I genuinely want to play. 

 

I'm proud of my Twisted Metal platinum, which is quite rare. It requires getting gold medals on the hardest difficulty and completing the game all the way through without dying or switching vehicles. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by PlanetCheat

[EqualityEarth]

IMO, I think the whole idea of difficulty modes, at least for carrying them over to today’s generation, is fundamentally flawed. As in, to me, they’re a confession that the game is too flawed to be reliably enjoyed by any eager player who picks it up. Easy mode or hard mode, like in the arcade style games, used to set your life count, level timer, take more damage, basically handicap you. Nothing transformative to the game, mostly a damage slider, just turn up the heat, maybe make the bullet hell worse. Of course challenge is important, some even say central to games, but while intentions are good, I think the implementation is where it all goes wrong.

 

Kingdom Hearts uses 3-4 difficulty modes but you will probably only use the 2 extremes. Beginner mode I imagine is widely utilized for the main trophy hunts though it’s really unnecessary and I think obviously counterproductive to eventually pursuing completion of Proud/Critical mode. The differences are simply your damage intake and output being doubled or halved and such. This carries over to gummi ship mode BTW... 

Difficulty just being a damage slider in KH series was a letdown for me. Having a high damage intake I think has discouraged people from hard modes due to how awfully vulnerable you are in midair without something like a dodge (the air dodge in Dissidia were still better than the KH air slide, which IIRC doesn’t even have invincibility frames). I hear in KH3 you can now guard in midair. Wow. Finally. One good thing came from this game.

My advice for KH creator if he could go back in time..

> Easy mode- Keyblades have slightly bigger hit boxes and higher “difficult to deflect” factor. Bosses have mostly basic attacks that aren’t too hard to dodge. Built-in Second Chance ability. Only basic magic can be learned but is accessible to use with shortcuts.

> Hard mode- Keyblades have lower “difficult to deflect” factor. Give the bosses additional attacks that are harder to dodge. More advanced magic/techs can be used for higher MP, perhaps with L-Stick tilt inputs.

> Overall- No damage sliders! And this is all just examples of hopefully difficulty being something worth choosing before you start the game. The ideal game is easy to pickup, and gets harder to progress, with completion being the greatest challenge, a culmination of the knowledge acquired through the play. KH is probably the most redundant application of easy/hard mode ever. You already decide your level up speed arc and starting stat build at the early game decisions ?‍♂️ 

 

Bayonetta had more of both the good and the bad. Easy mode you could automatically beat by pressing any buttons, and the character will unleash perfect play; you won’t get much of a score though! The hardest mode, however, on top of a major damage slider and maliciously throwing the harder angels at you earlier, also removed Witch Time, a central tool in the game, leaving you with nothing smarter to do than to equip an accessory that (? probably everyone did the same) that cleverly “traded” witch time for a cherry bomb that countered attacks each time. The good news is you could totally beat the game, and not be held back too much if you got better over time. You just wouldn’t get high scores or good medals until you perfected your performance in each verse. Of course that is how PlatinumGames does difficulty, and overall accommodating players if you watch GMTK and such on YT.

Tales is probably the most contentious example in my mind when it came to the hard modes. I couldn’t tell the incentive in Symphonia (final boss only used a mystic arte on Mania mode), definitely no point in Xillia/Xillia 2 (in fact Difficulty trophies disappear there), but in Graces there is a HUGE incentive to go hard (faster SP for titles and I think also exp/gald).

 

This brings me back to my golden standard Kirby Air Ride ❤️ from the GameCube. All the achievements were hidden until you unlocked adjacent ones. And there is no easy/hard to speak of. There are handicap/cpu level sliders but they were not important. “Easy mode” was just playing the game, racing for fun, and just seeing how it goes. The game naturally got “harder” if you tried to complete time attacks under certain times, requiring you to hit as many enemies as possible for maximum speed boosts. The times seem impossible by margins upwards of 30 seconds to 1 minute until you optimize this. Thankfully Air Ride has gnarly YT video guides now ?

 

I also think trophies for clearing certain difficulties or getting certain ending in games, while they’re fine, and they can give you an excuse to replay (though I’m sure many of us like to complete a game before starting another, so have fun with your 3 consecutive playthroughs!), they kinda betray themselves because if you can’t get through a game or its rough patches due to something it’s not telling you about (strategy) or preparing you for at all (antepieces), I don’t see any point in “remedying” the situation by offering an easy mode to start over on or switch over to just to smooth over the game designs shortcomings by letting you win while making the same or more mistakes thanks to a fatter health bar or souped up basic attack.

I don’t think every game has to shoot for being out-of-the-box like thatgamecompany and Team Ico, but I think games have generally suffered from being “boxed in” more or less with the melee battles of twitch and medieval puzzles you hate until you look up the solution because the logic didn’t present itself. So games always being the “right difficulty” or “having all the difficulty levels available” for everyone will continue to be called in question as long as the idea itself is what they build around.

[Phlegeth]

If I have to put forth an effort, I'm going to take that time and energy to make an online petition to demand them change it.

[AJ_Radio]

1 hour ago, EqualityEarth said:

IMO, I think the whole idea of difficulty modes, at least for carrying them over to today’s generation, is fundamentally flawed. As in, to me, they’re a confession that the game is too flawed to be reliably enjoyed by any eager player who picks it up. Easy mode or hard mode, like in the arcade style games, used to set your life count, level timer, take more damage, basically handicap you. Nothing transformative to the game, mostly a damage slider, just turn up the heat, maybe make the bullet hell worse. Of course challenge is important, some even say central to games, but while intentions are good, I think the implementation is where it all goes wrong.

 

You're talking of old arcade games from the 80s and early 90s. We passed that era a long time ago.

 

I think what's going on is the industry is trying to grasp a bigger and more varied audience mostly for profit. I started in an era (early 1990s) where life count, level timer, so on and so forth were common. Largely unfair and often brutal. I don't think too many people miss those games.

 

In my opinion, games like Dark Souls and Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice have the perfect difficulty. There is a very steep learning curve as is typical of From Software games. But you also have to be cautious and careful even if you know these games well because a regular enemy can cut you to shreds if you're unprepared. The tutorial is basically a bunch of button commands you see from messages, so Dark Souls, Demon's Souls and the like just throw you right into the action. Then once you enter New Game Plus, the difficulty ramps up, but you probably already have better gear and weaponry, so that's completely fine.

 

The industry is making their AAA games more accessible to today's generation. Today's generation was not brought up in the arcades nor did they grow up on overly difficult and generally unfair games that were commonplace back in the PS1/N64 era. I'm not saying any of these games need to be Super Meat Boy like levels of difficulty because that requires a great amount of skill and dedication, I'm good at platformers and even that took me ages to finally beat. But the real flaw and insult is tossing out the difficulty related trophies for the base game, then basically shoving out those difficult trophies behind DLC. That makes the completionists and truly dedicated trophy hunters work towards a 100 percent that doesn't even earn them a platinum. The industry did this to pull in a bigger audience.

 

I feel that more games in general should require some modicum of time and challenge, yet still be accessible for most. I'm not asking for something crazy like Tetris Effect, something that is twitch dependent like Super Meat Boy, or is a massive boring grind like Friday the 13th: The Game. The games should have fun and addicting gameplay, first and foremost, but also not be mere walks in the park. The way Ratalaika is doing it I feel is wrong, because it just reeks participation trophy.

 

I don't think trophy hunting should be something everybody can do.

[peffsi]

Final Fantasy VII Remake has a hard mode trophy.

And I hate it, especially since hard mode is not available on your first playthrough. I didn't like the game enough to want to play the whole thing a second time, even though I'm 2 trophies away from the Platinum.

 

Well, whatever, I play games on easy mode almost every time, and if there are difficulty-related trophies needed for Platinum, it just means I'm probably not going to get the Platinum.

The same goes for multiplayer trophies.

 

On 1/1/2021 at 7:21 PM, BedlamLugosi said:

 But it seems that for trophies to appeal to the masses they’re heading in the I am Mayo direction.

 

That is a massive exaggeration.

Games like Spider-Man and Ghost of Tsushima still need a little bit of skill and a decent time investment to Platinum. That is nowhere near "My Name Is Mayo" levels of easy.

If they wanted to go that route, they would give you Gold trophies for "Start New Game" "Kill One Enemy" "Use One Special Move" etc and be done with it.

[Ric]

6 hours ago, Spaz said:

 

You're talking of old arcade games from the 80s and early 90s. We passed that era a long time ago.

 

I think what's going on is the industry is trying to grasp a bigger and more varied audience mostly for profit. I started in an era (early 1990s) where life count, level timer, so on and so forth were common. Largely unfair and often brutal. I don't think too many people miss those games.

 

In my opinion, games like Dark Souls and Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice have the perfect difficulty. There is a very steep learning curve as is typical of From Software games. But you also have to be cautious and careful even if you know these games well because a regular enemy can cut you to shreds if you're unprepared. The tutorial is basically a bunch of button commands you see from messages, so Dark Souls, Demon's Souls and the like just throw you right into the action. Then once you enter New Game Plus, the difficulty ramps up, but you probably already have better gear and weaponry, so that's completely fine.

 

The industry is making their AAA games more accessible to today's generation. Today's generation was not brought up in the arcades nor did they grow up on overly difficult and generally unfair games that were commonplace back in the PS1/N64 era. I'm not saying any of these games need to be Super Meat Boy like levels of difficulty because that requires a great amount of skill and dedication, I'm good at platformers and even that took me ages to finally beat. But the real flaw and insult is tossing out the difficulty related trophies for the base game, then basically shoving out those difficult trophies behind DLC. That makes the completionists and truly dedicated trophy hunters work towards a 100 percent that doesn't even earn them a platinum. The industry did this to pull in a bigger audience.

 

I feel that more games in general should require some modicum of time and challenge, yet still be accessible for most. I'm not asking for something crazy like Tetris Effect, something that is twitch dependent like Super Meat Boy, or is a massive boring grind like Friday the 13th: The Game. The games should have fun and addicting gameplay, first and foremost, but also not be mere walks in the park. The way Ratalaika is doing it I feel is wrong, because it just reeks participation trophy.

 

I don't think trophy hunting should be something everybody can do.

 

I completely agree.

 

Just like actual hunting for food made place for grocery shopping, trophy hunting is slowly being replaced by trophy shopping.

 

Ratalaika made me think about this 

 

 

[Bloodytears1666]

I'm agree with fundamentally flawed term, if take for example Hollow Knight, I don't understand that type of difficulty completely. So a boss now moves faster than maximum fast your character can with all buffs, it hits harder over a limit simply not killing you first hit, its attacks cover maximum space of a screen, and here a flaw - it takes very long to take it out, and you watch same 5 maximum attacks over and over again, simply because you've been put on maximum disadvantage in front of a boss. There is no secret, no tactics really, just that jump hit for a longer time with each difficulty rise. And between bosses no matter how strong are you everything feels like filler, pre set bad situations you come across once and then until you can't no more.

Difficulty design not about an easy ways to hold a player on the same place, but giving them a challenge. Souls series can make you stuck anywhere, Hollow Knight got me stuck on a boss with 3 attacks, not very entertaining in my opinion, but hard, indeed.

[exsentry]

On 1/2/2021 at 7:42 PM, Spaz said:

The developers found out they could attract a bigger and more varied audience by making games that are relatively easy that you can play on the easiest setting for the platinum. Games in general are far easier now than they were 10 - 20 years ago, the game mechanics have improved substantially, and everything has basically become streamlined.

 

It's a good reason why I've stuck with older games and indie games because the new stuff just feels boring. The graphics are impressive, and sometimes the themes are quite good (Ghost of Tsushima), but if you look more closely a lot of these giant AAA games are really just a new layer of paint added to a formula that's already been done in the past.

 

Yes and no. Although I agree there's a vision to capture a larger and more casual audience, it could be backwards that the larger and more casual audience tend to lead to more (or louder) complaints especially with Twitter mobs. Also, the gaming "journalist" scene is about as casual and whiny as you can get (e.g., complaining about no easy option for Sekiro, failed tutorials on Cuphead, etc.) causing just negative publicity...which a AAA game company doesn't want. 

 

And yes, thank God for older titles and indie games...there's only so many open-world, level-up and collect things for a platinum type games I can handle.

Edited January 6, 2021 by pathtoninja

[AJ_Radio]

3 hours ago, pathtoninja said:

Yes and no. Although I agree there's a vision to capture a larger and more casual audience, it could be backwards that the larger and more casual audience tend to lead to more (or louder) complaints especially with Twitter mobs. Also, the gaming "journalist" scene is about as casual and whiny as you can get (e.g., complaining about no easy option for Sekiro, failed tutorials on Cuphead, etc.) causing just negative publicity...which a AAA game company doesn't want. 

Twitter is straight up trash. No real value, nothing good comes out of it anymore. 
 

I think the Twitter mob mentality is pretty much a sign of the times. People found out if they speak loud enough and get angry enough, the other side will cave in. I made this a point in the thread regarding Top Hat Studios refusing to censor their game. 
 

The real problem, and something I’ve taken note for quite some time, is the fact that history is repeating itself. These Twitter assholes have no thick skin, they’re about as soft as they can get. They proclaim they’re against communism and fascism, but their actions say otherwise. The moment you tell them something they don’t want to hear, or you make an opinion they don’t agree with, they will try to silence you. Does the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany ring a bell? It should, because they did just that. The major difference is these people are too stupid, cowardly and ignorant to know any better. They are sheep who are easily misled and easily misinformed.

 

Gaming journalism as it is today is more like a second rate MSNBC and Fox News. Full of their own shit, and purely driven by propaganda. Real journalism doesn’t exist anymore. 
 

3 hours ago, pathtoninja said:

And yes, thank God for older titles and indie games...there's only so many open-world, level-up and collect things for a platinum type games I can handle.

I wouldn’t have as much of an issue if these modern games took more risks and tried out new ideas. But they don’t. These big corporations are too comfortable with what they’re doing, and the publishers aren’t willing to take risks because they want to maximize profits. 
 

Look what has happened to Blizzard after they merged with Activision. 
 

They don’t innovate. They have all the money in the world, but they’re forced to sink that money into sterile projects. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Spaz