Is Batman Origins Canon?

[Axolpox]

 I have been debating with myself whither Batman Origins is canon or not. I've discussed it with friends and colleagues that played the games. From what the general consensus in my inner circle that either, they never knew the game existed or they consider it not canon.

 

 On one hand, It is shown in this game that Joker first met Harleen Quinzel in Blackgate while audio tapes in Arkham Asylum state that they first met at Arkham. The fact that Arkham Origins alters the first meeting of Harley and Joker is not apparent in later games. Also, collectable character profiles are wrong in their description, they have a lot on continuity errors that don't make sense. And, the gap between Arkham Origins and Arkham Asylum shown in game to be 5 years, although it's actually 15 years. Along with, with the release of the Arkham Collection released on the PS4/Xbox One not including Arkham Origins.

 

 On the other hand, in an interview made by gameinformer with the Arkham Knight game director and co-founder of Rocksteady Studios Sefton Hill made an interesting comment, "We definitely consider it canon," and "To be honest, mainly we said, 'Make the game you want to make,'". I've seen countless other articles and forms where people use this as proof that the game is canon. 

 

 In my opinion, Arkham Origins in not canon, even if the Director said it was, I think it was a PR move to promote Arkham Origins. Also, It was written by two different writers, and there's a lot of continuity errors for me to consider it canon. In addition, the Arkham Collection cemented for me that Arkham Origins is not considered canon by Warner Brothers. But, I keep coming back to it, thinking maybe it's due to time and budget constraints Arkham Origins wasn't included. We will never know if that was the case.

 

 In conclusion, I see both sides as valid, both sides have good evidence to strengthen their arguments. I just think the former is correct. I'd like to see what people who read my topic think. 

 

References:

> "We definitely consider it Canon"

Edited January 2, 2021 by HorrifiedShrimp

[DrBloodmoney]

I haven’t played Origins, but I am a Batman comicbook fan, and for what it’s worth I can tell you - the question of whether something is ‘canon’ or not, in terms of the books, is always a bit fruitless, as there is so much Batman out there, with so many dark alleys and offshoots, reboots and one offs, side stories and retellings and straight up out-of-reality stuff, that really, each book is best judged on it’s own merits. I think the games are no different.

 

Best just to ask, “does it obey it’s own internal canon?” - if yes, cool cool. If not, hmmmm ??? ?‍♂️ 

Edited January 2, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[OnuR10Ly]

Yes.

[LukaLaurent]

Well... all the games are adaptions from the comics, so a debate could be had that none of the games are canon, lol.

 

The Rocksteady games are referred to as the 'Arkham trilogy' though, so it's obviously leaving out Origins. It's one of those cases that if you think too hard about it you'll find holes, but near enough is good enough imo.

[HuntingFever]

I've never considered this game to be canon and I'm sure I read somewhere that even someone involved with the game didn't consider it to be canon ?.

[stiviwonderstif]

Yes it is CANON. And Origins Blackgate, the sequel of this prequel, it is too. 

Like Uncharted Golden Abyss. Is a prequel of Drake's Fortune. At least, you can play Blackgate on PS3 as well. But not Golden Abyss. Was never ported away from Vita.

Besides that, Origins is not only canon as prequel of Asylum, is a really EXCELLENT game. Has very good moments and, probably, the best boss fights in series.

Edited March 4, 2021 by stiviwonderstif

[NamoPh]

I'm assuming the people who didn't play it treated it like the read-headed stepchild, and never gave it a chance, because it wasn't made by Rocksteady. Even though I can't really name anything that the other games did better. If anything, I found Origins to be the most fun to play through and complete. It innovated crime scenes in a way that was then copied in Knight. It refined combat and made the combat challenges a natural part of the main game, rather than making 200 maps in the challenge mode out of them. The boss fights were more creative. It put way more effort into making the story feel like a story with characters, rather than cardboard cut-outs that are only there with a threadbare excuse just for you to fight them. Only Knight put as much effort into the story, but the pacing was then bogged down by the Batmobile sections.

 

Then there's the multiplayer mode, which was quite novel and original, even though I only touched it for the trophies because I just don't do multiplayer.

 

As for whether the story is canon, I'm 100% certain I remember events in Origins are subtly referenced in Knight, but I can't give specific examples after all this time.

[BestUsername----]

It is canon because of an interaction between 

Spoiler

Firefly and Batman

in Arkham Knight. They both directly refer to their fight they had in the past in Origins. 

Spoiler

Deathstroke

also refers back to their initial fight in Origins as their sole reason why they wanted to kill Batman.

Edited March 6, 2021 by BestUsername----

[kenseizenkai]

I don't consider Origins to be canon. The game is set 5 years before Asylum, but look what happens in those 5 years:

 

Spoiler

 

- Batman (Bruce Wayne) recruits first Robin (Dick Grayson) & Batgirl (Barbara Gordon).

- Bruce & Dick have a falling out. Dick leaves batfamily & becomes Nightwing.

- Bruce recruits second Robin (Jason Todd).

- Joker "kills" Jason & cripples Barbara. Barbara becomes Oracle.

- Bruce recruits third Robin (Tim Drake).

- Events of Asylum take place.

 

 

My point is there is no way that many events happen in span of 5 years. Also in Asylum, Bruce is supposed to be in his mid to late 30s, while in Origins he's in his early to mid 20s.

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by kenseizenkai

[OmegaRejectz]

On 2021-01-02 at 4:08 AM, HorrifiedShrimp said:

 I have been debating with myself whither Batman Origins is canon or not. I've discussed it with friends and colleagues that played the games. From what the general consensus in my inner circle that either, they never knew the game existed or they consider it not canon.

 

 On one hand, It is shown in this game that Joker first met Harleen Quinzel in Blackgate while audio tapes in Arkham Asylum state that they first met at Arkham. The fact that Arkham Origins alters the first meeting of Harley and Joker is not apparent in later games. Also, collectable character profiles are wrong in their description, they have a lot on continuity errors that don't make sense. And, the gap between Arkham Origins and Arkham Asylum shown in game to be 5 years, although it's actually 15 years. Along with, with the release of the Arkham Collection released on the PS4/Xbox One not including Arkham Origins.

 

 On the other hand, in an interview made by gameinformer with the Arkham Knight game director and co-founder of Rocksteady Studios Sefton Hill made an interesting comment, "We definitely consider it canon," and "To be honest, mainly we said, 'Make the game you want to make,'". I've seen countless other articles and forms where people use this as proof that the game is canon. 

 

 In my opinion, Arkham Origins in not canon, even if the Director said it was, I think it was a PR move to promote Arkham Origins. Also, It was written by two different writers, and there's a lot of continuity errors for me to consider it canon. In addition, the Arkham Collection cemented for me that Arkham Origins is not considered canon by Warner Brothers. But, I keep coming back to it, thinking maybe it's due to time and budget constraints Arkham Origins wasn't included. We will never know if that was the case.

 

 In conclusion, I see both sides as valid, both sides have good evidence to strengthen their arguments. I just think the former is correct. I'd like to see what people who read my topic think. 

 

References:

> "We definitely consider it Canon"

Pretty sure if a canon.

*But* the Arkham series (games, comics, and other media) is very convoluted & there’s definitely things that don’t line up even if it’s canon. 

4 minutes ago, kenseizenkai said:

I don't consider Origins to be canon. The game is set 5 years before Asylum, but look what happens in those 5 years:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

- Batman (Bruce Wayne) recruits first Robin (Dick Grayson) & Batgirl (Barbara Gordon).

- Bruce & Dick have a falling out. Dick leaves batfamily & becomes Nightwing.

- Bruce recruits second Robin (Jason Todd).

- Joker "kills" Jason & cripples Barbara. Barbara becomes Oracle.

- Bruce recruits third Robin (Tim Drake).

- Events of Asylum take place.

 

 

My point is there is no way that many events happen in span of 5 years. Also in Asylum, Bruce is supposed to be in his mid to late 30s, while in Origins he's in his early to mid 20s.

 

It is a videogame though, are we really to believe Batman fought all these rogues in one night? Really? Lots of the games have errors and aren’t perfect. While I don’t think Origins is phenomenal, I consider it canon & appreciate what it did for the franchise.

[BestUsername----]

6 minutes ago, kenseizenkai said:

I don't consider Origins to be canon. The game is set 5 years before Asylum, but look what happens in those 5 years:

 

  Hide contents

 

- Batman (Bruce Wayne) recruits first Robin (Dick Grayson) & Batgirl (Barbara Gordon).

- Bruce & Dick have a falling out. Dick leaves batfamily & becomes Nightwing.

- Bruce recruits second Robin (Jason Todd).

- Joker "kills" Jason & cripples Barbara. Barbara becomes Oracle.

- Bruce recruits third Robin (Tim Drake).

- Events of Asylum take place.

Great points. I won't disagree that the timeline for the Arkham games are problematic, as well as the whole Tim and Barbara romance felt off putting .But you can look at the timeline like this.

Spoiler

 

-Dick and Bruce form a duo within one year of The Batman starting.

-After Origins Batgirl is born and joins the team.

-2 years later Dick leaves to become Nightwing.

-During the same year he finds Jason and recruits him as his second Robin.

-Now Jason can die with a year before or shortly after the events of Asylum. You can explain his absence in Asylum because it was just a routine of putting Joker in Arkham.

-Within the same year Bruce recruits Tim as Robin, as I believe it was stated in Knight that Bruce "didn't even wait a year to replace him"

 

So while it is a stretch, I think a timeline between Origins and Asylum is possible. Hell if you think about it Arkham Batman himself didn't last that long, Bruce's tenure as Batman was only about 13 years.

 

As for Barbara being crippled within the 5 years between Origins and Asylum. You have to remember that she was still operating as Batgirl when Tim was Robin. And he wasn't Robin until City.

 

 

[SHADOW-KILLER-S2]

I like to believe its canon. This game is usually seen as the worst in the Arkham series (because of the multiplayer i guess?) but i liked it alot.

There are good and fun bosses, nice weapons (shock gloves!!!) and the crime scenes were refreshing break from the combat.

I havent played Arkham Knight but from what i have seen it continues on some stuff from Origins, for example: Gordon is an older grey/white haired man in Asylum/City but in Origins he is obviously younger, yet in Arkham Knight he is still younger then in Asylum/City while Knight takes place later.

 

Also the only reason Origins is not in the Arkham trilogy is because they only included the ones made by Rocksteady as theyre usually consider the best of the series.