Jump to content

Jim Ryan needs to be voted out of his position


Pariah_Dark

Recommended Posts

1 hour ago, LoveInHell said:

Imagine if they got millions of people directly complaining to them on social media

 

Don't really have a leg in this race, but I'd say that's probably already happening.  That's pretty much all social media is.  When millions of people are complaining about everything every day, how does anything actually important get done?

 

EDIT: Not that firing the video game man is actually important.

Edited by Dreakon13
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, LoveInHell said:

 Imagine if they got millions of people directly complaining to them on social media.

 

I would imagine that might have an impact, but it wouldn't happen, because there aren't millions of people annoyed by this move.

 

The vast, vast majority of console players are only interested in the current console or at most the PS4.

Most will be barely even aware that the PS3 store was even still in operation anyways.

Even less for the Vita.

 

The fraction of people most annoyed by the store closure are extremely 'gamer-centric' people, and trophy hunters.

 

PSNProfiles is by far the largest site for that contingent of people, and it has 383,000 members. That's 0.37% of the total (approx 103 million) PSN accounts - and remember - we don't even all agree on this topic. Not every member cares about the store closure - certainly not enough to actually complain directly on social media about it. 

 

Even assuming 80% of the members here care about the store at all (a pretty high estimate), and 50% of those (also a high estimate) care enough to make a concerted effort and actually contact Sony via Social media...

 

....Sony would be seeing a whopping 0.14% of its user base outraged.

 

If you wanted to do something, and 99.86% of people you asked were fine with it, or didn't care...

 

would the 0.14% really give you pause?

 

 

 

Edited by DrBloodmoney
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, LoveInHell said:

It’s not only the store’s closure. It’s a lot of anti-consumer decisions. Even the stupid decision of removing the activity feed in the app (and PS5?), not being able to write a message in a friend’s request, changing the online store in a mess, removing the wish list. NOTHING about these decisions scream “profit”, they’re just dumb. Like what the fuck was the point

 

Hey, I'm not saying all the decisions are great - far from it.

 

I do suspect that assuming things like the Activity Feed removal and the removal of Messages in Friend requests and some of the other store related stuff are actual 'decisions' is probably naive though. I wouldn't lump them into the same category as the store closure.

 

Much more likely that those 'decisions' were actually something to do with changes or modernisations to the back-end infrastructure that governs those things, and their removal is either a necessary, known step in that, or an unintended consequence.

The proof will be in the pudding in a year or so with that suff I guess - it may be that new stuff gets ironed out, and those things are addressed and reinstated / replaced in some form. Hey, you never know, the new thing might even be better? At this point, who knows?

 

All I'm saying - all I've been saying here - is that as big as this store closure seems from inside the bubble of this site, it is small beer to the majority of the user base - and even a herculean effort of organisation, petitioning, campaigning etc from the people who really care about these things, will represent nothing more than a minor thorn in Sony's side, easily brushed off and disregarded in the wake of the massive contingent of players who don't care at all - and likely see our collective outrage as nothing more than a peculiar oddity from a subset of a subset of a subset. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe the problems at Sony Outweigh then just Jim Ryan. In my opinion Consoles kinda have lost their charm in the last five years not just because of hardware but if you look at the Retail side of things it's just not the same as it once was. 

I actually do like Small digital games & Early Access, I think it's a-ok for a team to work on something different even if it might not feel finished.

 

What I don't like is Paid Online or hardware/software that feels unnecessary.

I dislike the trend of remasters.

Haven't had issue with all Sony stuff but I may skip PS5 because there just isn't much reason to be on playstation anymore. I kinda stop with Nintendo Stuff Since after Gamecube/DS when Wii came out. Once in awhile at my sibling's place I played Switch/WiiU but overall I haven't found much reason to own one.

 

 

Sony has to go above and beyond with software, making games that look like alot fun... what I've seen just doesn't glue to me. heh 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And who would he be replaced with? An innovative, generous CEO who’s “for the people”? Please.

 

His job is to make the company as much money as possible. Nothing more, nothing less. And if he can do that while pissing people off, he’s actually better at the job than some might think he is. 

Edited by PalaceOfLove706
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, LoveInHell said:

Jeez, you need therapy.

 

lmao no i don't. 

 

2 hours ago, PalaceOfLove706 said:

And who would he be replaced with? An innovative, generous CEO who’s “for the people”? Please.

 

His job is to make the company as much money as possible. Nothing more, nothing less. And if he can do that while pissing people off, he’s actually better at the job than some might think he is. 

 

100%. if he was making all these poor decisions from a financial standpoint,  he'd be gone. But he isn't. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The problem with complaints when done on a massive scale is that the intelligent, relevant points get conveniently lost amidst all the hysterical noise.

 

It seems that sometimes the only way to change things is to shoot men who arrange things, but there is another option and that is to simply speak with your wallets.

 

 

 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Japanime_Gamer said:

The problem with complaints when done on a massive scale is that the intelligent, relevant points get conveniently lost amidst all the hysterical noise.

 

It seems that sometimes the only way to change things is to shoot men who arrange things, but there is another option and that is to simply speak with your wallets.

 

You don't need your mass outrage to be intelligent and detached, you just need it to be detrimental to a corporation's profit, and then you get a response, just like how mass outrage around Battlefront 2, while not necessarily cool and collected, got lootboxes taken out of the game.

 

You can vote with your wallet all you want, but if people had simply quietly not purchased that game without complaining, I can guarantee you that wouldn't have happened. The only reason change happened was because of ~mass hysteria~ around the lootboxes, which in turn encouraged more and more people not to buy the game, forcing EA's hand.

 

Voting with your wallet is just about as effective as actual voting - when your 'voice' is just an irrelevant fraction, your 'vote' can be safely ignored. Maybe you get the placebo effect of thinking that you've done something meaningful, but it'll only have tangible effects if people join you en masse - and in order to get them to do so, you need to make noise. Get messy. Maybe even a little uncool and uncollected.

Edited by Darling Baphomet
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, BloodyRutz said:

 

Not only PS5 exclusives. Also, how is this an issue? People expect budgets for creating these games to grow bigger, yet price to stay the same? The only time I'm literally worried about the future of gaming is when I see people on Facebook arguing Returnal is somehow not worth 70 USD price tag.

 

 

 

I'm not familiar with the background on which the decision has been made. Same as 99% of people on this site.

 

 

 

Cutting costs makes sense. PS3 got released 15 years ago! Yet I see people on this site saying they won't be buying PS5 any time soon since they have a huge PS3 backlog. Ridiculous!

 

 

 

5+ games released. Yet everytime I see somebody complaining Ubisoft is "milking" AC.

 

 

 

Debunked speculation.

 

 

 

Yet console store is finally integrated into UI and is much faster than before. Missing the wishlist (for now) though.

 

 

 

Legacy PSN stores closing. Same applies here.

 

 

 

Well... allegedly.

 

 

 

Video/movie rental? Really? It's 2021. Subscription-based entertainment is a way to go and I'm sure Sony is aware, same as every other company in the same business.

 

 

 

For real? Wow. Well, good for you. If I wouldn't spend that much time on gaming I'm sure I would finish much more of my side-business projects ? The best decision I did after buying a PS5 was to start fresh and stop chasing the completion of PS4 games - getting trophies for games I don't really care about.

 

 

How is having a huge ps3 backlog ridiculous? Guess you don't like games

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Ac3dUd3- said:

Games are one of the few things that have stayed the same price ignoring inflation for over 10 years, a lot of companies give bonuses at the end of games launching, it costs more to develop games, with everything else in the world increasing with inflation but you want to cry over a $10 increase that was due 10 years ago? 

 

It's even funnier when you consider that $70 for a new release is still less than some of the most well loved classics of the SNES and Genesis era that ran for $80 or more at release in the 90s which with inflation would be a lot more expensive than that now.  Or even better, Neo Geo games.  A price increase on games has been long overdue.  What's frustrating is that the price increase will likely not stop the more crappy practices that exist or do much to stop all the damage that has been caused by the development costs increasing drastically while game prices remained the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

The only reason change happened was because of ~mass hysteria~ around the lootboxes, which in turn encouraged more and more people not to buy the game, forcing EA's hand.

 

I really like your post and that is not intended to be patronising. The point I quoted from you is the point I was ultimately trying to make.

 

The problem with hysteria is that you have to sift through the bones of the 'FU JIM RYAN' posts in order to get to the real meat of the argument and only then can any sense be made out of it.

 

However, for every 1 person that boycotts SONY there will be a 100 others who blindly jump aboard.

 

 

Edited by Japanime_Gamer
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

You don't need your mass outrage to be intelligent and detached, you just need it to be detrimental to a corporation's profit, and then you get a response, just like how mass outrage around Battlefront 2, while not necessarily cool and collected, got lootboxes taken out of the game.

 

You can vote with your wallet all you want, but if people had simply quietly not purchased that game without complaining, I can guarantee you that wouldn't have happened. The only reason change happened was because of ~mass hysteria~ around the lootboxes, which in turn encouraged more and more people not to buy the game, forcing EA's hand.

 

Voting with your wallet is just about as effective as actual voting - when your 'voice' is just an irrelevant fraction, your 'vote' can be safely ignored. Maybe you get the placebo effect of thinking that you've done something meaningful, but it'll only have tangible effects if people join you en masse - and in order to get them to do so, you need to make noise. Get messy. Maybe even a little uncool and uncollected.

 

Here's the thing... Battlefront 2 was actually a bad thing, and people didn't buy the game.  The social media hysteria may have brought things to light that people may have otherwise not known, but because the people reading the hysteria actually cared, it influenced the game.

 

If you have hysteria and it isn't actually making a difference, it's likely not something people actually care about outside of the "vocal minority".  If people don't care about it, it may not actually be a problem.  If it's not a problem, it wouldn't hurt sales and the hysteria is just hysteria... nothing productive about it.

 

Occasionally companies flinch and make changes because of the hysteria, to things that aren't actually problems, because they're afraid to wait and see how it effects the bottom line... but in those cases, that's just people abusing (or trying to abuse) their own ability to influence.  Something incredibly common nowadays and why every perceived slight turns into "outrage".  Power drunk.

Edited by Dreakon13
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Japanime_Gamer said:

I really like your post and that is not intended to be patronising. The point I quoted from you is the point I was ultimately trying to make.

 

The problem with hysteria is that you have to sift through the bones of the 'FU JIM RYAN' posts in order to get to the real meat of the argument and only then can any sense be made out of it.

 

However, for every 1 person that boycotts SONY there will be a 100 others who blindly jump aboard.

 

Yeah, that's definitely a fair point to make. I think raising outrage over stuff like, say, the PS3 store closing, or at least being unable to download patches that make games playable, would be worthwhile in itself. But then you have people whose takeaway is uh, something something California / Jim Ryan.

 

11 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

Here's the thing... Battlefront 2 was actually a bad thing, and people didn't buy the game.  The social media hysteria may have brought things to light that people may have otherwise not known, but because the people reading the hysteria actually cared, it influenced the game.

 

If you have hysteria and it isn't actually making a difference, it's likely not something people actually care about outside of the "vocal minority".  If people don't care about it, it may not actually be a problem.  If it's not a problem, it wouldn't hurt sales and the hysteria is just hysteria... nothing productive about it.

 

Battlefront 2 was a bad thing, but people only cared because of mass outrage. Once you have enough momentum behind a bandwagon, people start hopping in even if they don't care about the thing for the sense of group identity / vindication. E.g. popular to hate games like Battleborn. EA / 2K do similar things with their annual sports games having terrible, predatory mechanics, but people don't care about that, I suppose because most gamers already look down on sports titles as worthless; there's no betrayal, just "oh, poopy game is 20% poopier now. Cool."

 

13 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

Occasionally companies flinch and make changes because of the hysteria, to things that aren't actually problems, because they're afraid to wait and see how it effects the bottom line... but in those cases, that's just people abusing (or trying to abuse) their own ability to influence.  Something incredibly common nowadays and why every perceived slight turns into "outrage".  Power drunk.

 

Unfortunately, that's the very natural result of living in a very centralized world, in an age of social media - your average person is constantly subjected to narratives and happenings they have no control whatsoever over; the only way to have their voices heard is to make their voice popular, but unfortunately once you get thousands, or however many, people together under the banner of outrage, it's quite difficult to moderate. I don't think it's a healthy mechanism, but I think it's a response to an unhealthy environment. I don't believe people function well in societies where they have no control whatsoever over their environments, and where their individual voices are completely irrelevant.

 

Can you blame people living in an age of ultra-powerful goliaths, be they corporations, celebrities, or politicians, for combating said goliaths in any way they can?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Darling Baphomet said:

Can you blame people living in an age of ultra-powerful goliaths, be they corporations, celebrities, or politicians, for combating said goliaths in any way they can?

 

Is there a need to "combat" celebrities and corporations?  At least in the entertainment industry?

 

Consumers already have the ultimate say by simply not buying something.  It's the age of zero personal responsibility or accountability that leads to people thinking buying something is the only option, and their only defense is to attack the thing making a product they don't want, or for a price they don't want to pay.

Edited by Dreakon13
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, LoveInHell said:

It’s not only the store’s closure. It’s a lot of anti-consumer decisions. Even the stupid decision of removing the activity feed in the app (and PS5?), not being able to write a message in a friend’s request, changing the online store in a mess, removing the wish list. NOTHING about these decisions scream “profit”, they’re just dumb. Like what the fuck was the point

 

Here's the thing though, all of the stuff you listed will not affect your average gamer  nor is it seen as some big anti consumer move to them. Most are spending time in game not checking out their activity feed, writing messages in friend requests ain't exactly a big deal, wish list was added back to the app yesterday and the online store while not to your liking, gets the job done. I'm not saying these were good moves or they don't matter but the reality is that outside of this site, these changes are very minor and will not impact gamers in any way. Trophy hunters are way too self centered thinking everything revolves around them.. they don't. 

 

I look at some of the things people have been complaining about  and I'm like really? That's what's making you consider changing platforms? 

 

If there's any real downsides to the platform at the moment that would be the lack of vrr support, lack of accessibility options on the ps5, no external storage support for ps5 games, limited options to back up saved data, low internal storage space, no 1440p support option and the whole scalper situation going on not no trophy sound, trophy image icons or a bunch of nonsense people created out of their distain for Jim Ryan and Sony. A lot of the things I mentioned above will likely get implemented sooner or later so it's just a matter of patience. 

Edited by BrandedBerserk
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

42 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

Consumers already have the ultimate say by simply not buying something.  It's the age of zero personal responsibility or accountability that leads to people thinking buying something is the only option, and their only defense is to attack the thing making a product they don't want, or for a price they don't want to pay.

 

Consumers as a mass of all consumers, sure. But that's completely irrelevant, because I wasn't talking about consumers as a group, I was talking about consumers as individuals. Corporations do not give a fuck about you as an individual, because you are statistically irrelevant. Your 60$ is equivalent of nothing when the scale is hundreds of millions.

 

Now, if you want to make use of your collective power, you would have to rally people to your cause, get a large group of people to do a similar course of action, thus making up for individual irrelevance. Maybe through some outrage?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

Consumers as a mass of all consumers, sure. But that's completely irrelevant, because I wasn't talking about consumers as a group, I was talking about consumers as individuals. Corporations do not give a fuck about you as an individual, because you are statistically irrelevant. Your 60$ is equivalent of nothing when the scale is hundreds of millions.

 

Now, if you want to make use of your collective power, you would have to rally people to your cause, get a large group of people to do a similar course of action, thus making up for individual irrelevance. Maybe through some outrage?

 

You never answered my question of why there's a need for this.  Why is this important?

 

Politics, sure... it effects where our tax dollars go, it effects our impact on the planet, it effects the health and well-being of our friends, families and neighbors. 

 

But other than nice taglines like "we must be heard" because "we're individuals" and "corporations don't give a fuck about you" and blah blah blah, why is it important that Joe Blow rallies people to his cause protesting a $10 price increase to a game he doesn't have to buy, for a console he doesn't own?  With the tiniest bit of willpower, it seems like Joe Blow has complete control over the situation with or without the rally, and so does every single person he rallies with.

Edited by Dreakon13
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

You never answered my question of why there's a need for this.  Why is this important?

 

Why is your question important? It isn't to me. Quite the opposite, in fact. Maybe you're the kind of person who doesn't have any interests or hobbies worth caring about, but some people do, in fact, care about their hobbies. Perhaps people want to continue to buy games on the PS3s they've bought, for instance. Maybe people don't like predatory microtransactions in every other multiplayer game they play. Maybe people are upset about game studios they love being shuttered, or game projects they're interested in being cancelled in favor of Hollywood-bait. Maybe people can barely afford 60$ games as is, and aren't eager for games to make an even bigger hole in their wallets.

 

Complaining about those issues is certainly a more valuable use of one's time than complaining about people complaining about them.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

Why is your question important? It isn't to me. Quite the opposite, in fact. Maybe you're the kind of person who doesn't have any interests or hobbies worth caring about, but some people do, in fact, care about their hobbies. Perhaps people want to continue to buy games on the PS3s they've bought, for instance. Maybe people don't like predatory microtransactions in every other multiplayer game they play. Maybe people are upset about game studios they love being shuttered, or game projects they're interested in being cancelled in favor of Hollywood-bait. Maybe people can barely afford 60$ games as is, and aren't eager for games to make an even bigger hole in their wallets.

 

Complaining about those issues is certainly a more valuable use of one's time than complaining about people complaining about them.

 

Yikes.  You're kinda all over the place, let's circle back.

 

Very simple question... why should the consumer have control over financial decisions a company makes?  Or creative decisions for that matter?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

Very simple question... why should the consumer have control over financial decisions a company makes?  Or creative decisions for that matter?

 

You ask as if this is a theoretical question, when it's a simple reality. We live in a capitalist society where corporations exist on the foundation of extracting as much capital as possible from as many people as possible. By influencing public opinion, you influence corporations' ability to produce profit, and thus can to some extent exert control over them. There is no should here. This is simply the way things are.

 

Maybe you believe that the consumer has some... moral obligation to play fair with corporations that see them as nothing but walking piggy banks, but your ethics are irrelevant to the reality of the matter. The consumer has tools at their disposal that they can benefit from using. Most are, unfortunately, unaware of this, but they possess the ability nonetheless, and it is to their benefit to make use of it.

 

Why should they? Because it benefits them. Because they have no obligation not to play dirty with an industry that tries to sell loot boxes to their kids. Because your ethics, or lack thereof, do not change the fact that they already have control, shoulds and woulds notwithstanding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

You ask as if this is a theoretical question, when it's a simple reality. We live in a capitalist society where corporations exist on the foundation of extracting as much capital as possible from as many people as possible. By influencing public opinion, you influence corporations' ability to produce profit, and thus can to some extent exert control over them. There is no should here. This is simply the way things are.

 

Maybe you believe that the consumer has some... moral obligation to play fair with corporations that see them as nothing but walking piggy banks, but your ethics are irrelevant to the reality of the matter. The consumer has tools at their disposal that they can benefit from using. Most are, unfortunately, unaware of this, but they possess the ability nonetheless, and it is to their benefit to make use of it.

 

Why should they? Because it benefits them. Because they have no obligation not to play dirty with an industry that tries to sell loot boxes to their kids. Because your ethics, or lack thereof, do not change the fact that they already have control, shoulds and woulds notwithstanding.

 

So kill or be killed?  Get them before they get you?  Except in this case, the company may literally be killed while the consumer risks nothing?

Edited by Dreakon13
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

So kill or be killed?  Get them before they get you?  Except in this case, the company may literally be killed while the consumer risks nothing?

 

Who said anything about killing? Don't be so overdramatic. A company is not a person; it has no body to kill. A for-profit enterprise must be able to adapt to the needs of the market to sustain its existence. Why should it be the job of consumers to create a safe space where companies are free to ignore the needs and wants of consumers with no criticism?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

Who said anything about killing? Don't be so overdramatic. A company is not a person; it has no body to kill. A for-profit enterprise must be able to adapt to the needs of the market to sustain its existence. Why should it be the job of consumers to create a safe space where companies are free to ignore the needs and wants of consumers with no criticism?

 

I suppose you need to read between the lines just a teensy bit, as killing would be a metaphor in this case.  You almost figured it out.

 

This kind of goes back to the original point... where you don't seem to believe there's any kind of check or balance in place if the consumer doesn't have a way to obliterate a company overnight with waves of bad PR, when there really is.  It just involves not buying things, and lacks the instant gratification.  Companies learn (adapt even) a lot when products don't sell well, and I don't think there needs to be a maelstrom of social media vengeance to accomplish that if something is truly bad, personally.

 

Somehow this sort of thing happened before social media. ?

Edited by Dreakon13
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, LoveInHell said:

It’s not only the store’s closure. It’s a lot of anti-consumer decisions. Even the stupid decision of removing the activity feed in the app (and PS5?), not being able to write a message in a friend’s request, changing the online store in a mess, removing the wish list. NOTHING about these decisions scream “profit”, they’re just dumb. Like what the fuck was the point


I generally disagree with a lot of your opinions and your side on many discussions. But for once, you said something that I agree wholeheartedly with.

 

3 hours ago, BrandedBerserk said:

Here's the thing though, all of the stuff you listed will not affect your average gamer  nor is it seen as some big anti consumer move to them. Most are spending time in game not checking out their activity feed, writing messages in friend requests ain't exactly a big deal, wish list was added back to the app yesterday and the online store while not to your liking, gets the job done. I'm not saying these were good moves or they don't matter but the reality is that outside of this site, these changes are very minor and will not impact gamers in any way. 


The average person is stupid. Buys up the latest Madden and Call of Duty. Buys shark cards in GTA Online. Mindlessly throws away money on microtransactions in NBA 2K21. Automatically thinks the videos with over a billion views on YouTube are high quality content. Thinks Lil Wayne is actually a good rapper. Etc etc etc. 

 

I’ve said it for a long time, the masses generally cater to the lowest common denominator. Sure, millions go to McDonalds every single day without thinking at all about how bad the food is for you health wise. But my point is people just eat this shit up regardless if they’re getting screwed over from it. EA is one of the best in that business, they have screwed over their customers for a decade. And still people are all too eager to mindlessly shove money on the latest Madden or online only MOBA that will have online shut in short notice anyway. 
 

The web store is a joke. Even if I had no history with past Sony products and I bought myself a PS5 to buy games on the store, I still think it sucks. 
 

I’m sure a vast majority of people skip past a lot of features on Steam. But they’re there for the few who use them and I never had a complaint. Even the Xbox store looks better and has better design, on top of caring about game preservation. 
 

When the move to California was immediate and Jim Ryan became the head, the entire attitude changed. Now he’s relying on a few AAA blockbusters to help the PS5 console along. With where this is going those AAA blockbusters will be available at some point on the PC during which it will have already outclassed the PS5. 
 

I loved Sony in the PS2 days, and truth be told the trophy system is just icing on the cake. But with better options available on Steam and Japanese/AA titles shrinking on Sony platforms, I am going to do what I can left on both the PS4 and old systems, and eventually move on. 

Edited by AJ_Radio
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...