Backwards Compatibility: Would it ever be possible?

[BryceJ75]

So, after the recent events surrounding a surge of valued PlayStation customers proving that PlayStation's legacy consoles and games deserve to be preserved, would it be possible for some sort of Backwards Compatibility? There should be some sort of solution to backwards compatibility on PS5, hardware based emulation may not work for PS3 games, but there has to be some kind of software based solution besides game streaming. Sony has some of the best engineers and tech specialists in the world, I’m sure if time was put into it, there could be a proactive way of playing these games on the PS5, instead of the dying PS1, PS2, and PS3 hardware! I know some people see backwards compatibility as a waste of time, but there are plenty of games only available on the previous generations that won’t stand the test of time due to aging hardware. There should be work put in to not only preserve these older games, but to give PlayStation users even more hours of fun being able to play games they may not have been able to play on previous generations! Does anyone have any knowledge or ideas of how they may be able to work around the PS3 cell processor debacle and provide proper backwards compatibility? Is it possible to do disc-based emulation with the disc acting as verification of owning the game, while being able to download an upscaled version of the game instead? Let me know! ?

[DaivRules]

8 minutes ago, BryceJ75 said:

Does anyone have any knowledge or ideas of how they may be able to work around the PS3 cell processor debacle and provide proper backwards compatibility?

Yes, for around 50% of PS3 games that barely use all the cores of the Cell, the PS5 could probably handle some form of backward compatibility. The rest would take so much effort, it’s probably not worth it. 
 

The PS5 could certainly handle any PS1 or PS2 game. 
 

10 minutes ago, BryceJ75 said:

Is it possible to do disc-based emulation with the disc acting as verification of owning the game, while being able to download an upscaled version of the game instead?

They could use a disc check to stream any PS3 game through the PS Now service, but no, most would not be upscaled. They would be at native resolution for the same reason they can’t effectively emulate around half the PS3 library on the PS5 hardware.

 

If money were not object for Sony or if people were willing to pay around $30 a month just for backward compatibility, I could see enough engineers making about 75-80% of the PS3 library available through the PS5, but as so many people alluded to calling the PS4 the Remaster Station, many of the most popular PS3 titles were remastered for PS4. Just play those. 

[Gaberdude]

If a five-year old PC can do PS3 emulation with a 3rd party emulator, a PS5 could easily emulate PS3 games with a 1st party emulator. The hardest part is just getting Sony to want to do that...

[DaivRules]

Just now, Gaberdude said:

If a five-year old PC can do PS3 emulation with a 3rd party emulator, a PS5 could easily emulate PS3 games with a 1st party emulator.

That’s pretty disingenuous. Emulating around half the PS3 library, many with “acceptable glitches” isn’t quite people would accept from Sony. 

[Gaberdude]

I'm just saying that it's possible. If it's Sony, hopefully the emulator would be better than a random one you'd find online, especially since they were the ones who wrote the original coding for the PS3. Then again, Sony does kinda have a record of doing things wonderfully or doing the exact opposite, so who knows what the results would be unless it actually happens.

[TheAbyssWalker61]

Yeah, i think they are going to announce the compatibility in some point, i hope it doesn't take so much time but with the ps store open again, Ryan needs to know that we really want to play old and new games, games are games, it doesn't matter the year of their release, so yeah it's gonna happen, it will be nice in the next big Sony event close to the E3.

Edited April 21, 2021 by TheAbyssWalker61

[Zid960]

Sony has a patent for an emulator that can go all the way back to ps1. So if its patent already they must have a program to do it.

Also the fact the ps5 at launch till this last patch. HAD a way to sort ps3 games. It was in the sort by platform. So the original code was made to see ps3 games. Way put it in if you weren't going to do anything with it?

 

My guess is in the ps5 code. They were going to put in the emulator and choice not too or its in there somewhere half done. As it was built into the PS5.

Which is possible. Cuz look at the storage issue. Sony program it so they can lock part off. That's why we cant upgrade are internal hard drive yet. Till they say its ok. 

[nrs1nrs1]

3 minutes ago, Zid960 said:

Sony has a patent for an emulator that can go all the way back to ps1. So if its patent already they must have a program to do it.

Also the fact the ps5 at launch till this last patch. HAD a way to sort ps3 games. It was in the sort by platform. So the original code was made to see ps3 games. Way put it in if you weren't going to do anything with it?

 

My guess is in the ps5 code. They were going to put in the emulator and choice not too or its in there somewhere half done. As it was built into the PS5.

Which is possible. Cuz look at the storage issue. Sony program it so they can lock part off. That's why we cant upgrade are internal hard drive yet. Till they say its ok. 

Patenting something is very far away from actually having some kind of tech or software actually ready and usable. Patent filing happens all the time and the majority of the time nothing comes about from it, unfortunately.

[Shua_J]

It will eventually be entirely possible. It might be 10 years down the line..but definitely. So much so that when A.i. gets developed enough...the A.i. system will be able to emulate all old systems using nearly zero saved space because it will all three: write the preferred system for every individual use nearly instantaneously, write the game in question essentially as you're playing it and also be able to translate your information instantaneously to storage systems and trophy ping systems. This is the part of A.i. that I'm actually really excited about.

[Paperclip1776]

The reversal to keep the PS3 and Vita Stores open did give Sony pause that enough PS fans still enjoy legacy systems like PS1, 2, and 3.  That said, I think Sony is in a pickle with PS3 games being built on a proprietary cell processor.  If it was easy or reasonably possible to port PS3 games over to PS4 or PS5, they would've done it already.  They definitely here the cries for backwards compatibility because even CEO Jim Ryan has addressed this issue in the past saying something to the effect that BC is a highly requested feature but there's not a lot of interest in using it if the feature was available.

 

I do think Sony maybe reconsidering their efforts in the backwards compatibility department but I'm not sure how far they're willing to go.  I'm not a technical person like some of the folks responding to this thread with their thoughts but I would guess they would try and utilize PS Now as much as possible to preserve and make available as many PS1, 2, and 3 games as they can.  Like someone said above, the most popular legacy games have been remastered/remade for PS4, which is compatible on PS5, so it will be interesting to see if Sony does any course corrections in the future on backwards compatibility.  My thought is yes, but probably not to the degree everyone's hoping.  We shall see.

Edited April 21, 2021 by Paperclip1776
grammar update

[Shadiochao]

1 minute ago, Zid960 said:

Also the fact the ps5 at launch till this last patch. HAD a way to sort ps3 games. It was in the sort by platform. So the original code was made to see ps3 games. Way put it in if you weren't going to do anything with it?

 

That's for PS Now games, and it's still there.

Spoiler

 

[ChiefMichigan]

It's more than possible, both financially and from an engineering standpoint. But there are also licenses and copyright to consider.

 

Don't expect PS2 (almost all PS1 games) or early PS3 (almost all PS1 and PS2 games) backwards compatibility though. Even the Xbox One and Xbox Series S/X are missing compatibility with hundreds of Xbox 360 games. And they obviously only have a few dozen Xbox titles when that console had a library of about 850 games.

 

Here's a possible scenario

1. A few dozen digital PS1 titles, dozens or hundreds of PS2 titles (disc and digital), a few hundred PS3 titles (disc and digital)

2. Same as above but no disc support at all. Then it wouldn't be true backwards compatibility, but it would be classic/legacy content.

 

I don't think we'll ever see a situation where PS5 plays PS1 discs because I'm pretty sure it's currently impossible. PS5 has no way to recognize CDs. I don't think they can be fixed with a simple firmware update. You would probably have to change the engineering of the drive itself.

 

I think PlayStation should get on this. They're the king of home consoles, and they shouldn't forget the earlier software that got them there. Plus, it's nice for preservation of games.

[OmegaRejectz]

1 hour ago, DaivRules said:

That’s pretty disingenuous. Emulating around half the PS3 library, many with “acceptable glitches” isn’t quite people would accept from Sony. 

I'd gladly take a % of the PS3's library that runs well rather than absolutely nothing. Launch every game that plays great & then roll out more as they get worked on. Seems weird limiting an entire generation just because they can't meet 95+% of the library.

I mean, if they really wanted PS3 backwards compatability 99~% then they'd put the cell processor in the PS5. BUT, it would make no sense to do that. It drives the cost of the entire console up, and was the reason the PS3 was so expensive at launch. Because they basically had an entire PS2 inside the console. That's why later PS3s removed it, and thus were cheaper overall.

 

Emulation took Microsoft a decent while, and they didn't have to work with the ridiculous cell processor either. It's definitely not impossible. But I really don't think Sony sees any financial incentive to do so.

[DaivRules]

Just now, OmegaRejectz said:

I'd gladly take a % of the PS3's library that runs well rather than absolutely nothing. Launch every game that plays great & then roll out more as they get worked on. Seems weird limiting an entire generation just because they can't meet 95+% of the library.

I don’t think Sony thinks they’re limiting an entire generation because they’re still selling PS3 games to PS3 owners who want to pay for them and they’re offering PS Now to people who couldn’t be bothered to buy a PS3 that they say they want to support, but don’t own or own any games for.

 

I would gladly pay $200-$250 for an external breakout box for my PS4 or PS5 that has a cell processor and allows me to play my PS3 collection on another console. But I also have two PS3s to play my collection and I regularly play on one of them. 

[POEman553]

I think it will be a small number of PS3 games just like Microsoft's backward compatibility to Xbox / Xbox 360 is not the entire library (577 out of 2154 Xbox 360 games are backwards compatible). Let's be honest: Besides people on this site, would anyone want to play Monsters Vs. Aliens or Hannah Montana or The Smurfs 2 on their PS5? More than likely, the people who want backwards compatibility to PS3 would want to play games like Infamous, or ICO/Shadow of the Colossus Collection or Call of Duty: Black Ops or MotorStorm or Killzone 2.

 

I would love to have 100% backwards compatibility to PS3 (and PS1/PS2 classics to boot) but who knows what Sony has planned now.

[AihaLoveleaf]

Surprises could (hopefully) happen at any time, but I think the most pivotal moments where legacy preservation or emulation could show up would be around the time new hardware is coming out. I'm looking to the mid-gen refresh for PS5 for the possibility of something happening. 

[PostalDudeRus]

I know little about PS Now coz it's unavailable in my country, but isn't that actually emulation of a PS3 titles? I don't think there are PS3-based hardware machines running games you launch via PS Now. Probably they use super-computers to maintain connection to majority of people, but my guess is that they PS Now is software-based emulation, which gives idea of possiblity of backward compatibility even on PS4. Sony doesn't want to release emulator on their system because it will drain down PS Now idea (and their $$$ invested).

[DaivRules]

13 minutes ago, PostalDudeRus said:

but isn't that actually emulation of a PS3 titles?

Its not emulation. There are custom mainboards with 8 cell processors running 8 different PS3 instances and when someone plays a PS3 game, they reserve one of those 8 and are playing on actual PS3 hardware. There have been plenty of articles written about it. 
 

https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/175005-sonys-playstation-now-uses-custom-designed-hardware-with-eight-ps3s-on-a-single-motherboard

 

There is no existing PS3 emulation that Sony secretly has. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by DaivRules

[PostalDudeRus]

1 minute ago, DaivRules said:

Its not emulation. There are custom mainboards with 6 cell processors running 6 different PS3 instances and when someone plays a PS3 game, they reserve one of those 6 and are playing on actual PS3 hardware.

It's kinda funny and sad at same time. Funny because they are forced to manufacture CELL's to this days (even if it's modified and cost not so much as they used to be 15 years ago). And sad because they could spend money to develop CELL low-level interpolator or translator and use it on PS5 hardware or even their PS Now machines to lower the cost. But my guess there more problems in emulation, CELL is not the only issue.

[Z1MZUM]

It's just easier owning a Ps3, you can play Ps3 and Ps1 games. Ps2 is easy enough to find and adding a HD is even easier. There is one problem though, getting HDD through your PS2 can be dificult and expensive.

 

Edit;oops, I meant High Def

Edited April 21, 2021 by Z1MZUM

[Slava]

Do the current PS3 emulators even work that well? Last time I heard about the PS3 emulation on PC (a few years ago), the games like Red Dead Redemption ran at 6 FPS on a pretty powerful build.

[Ich1994-1994]

i think it doesnt really matter if current emulator work well. they are made non-profit or for illegal profit and atm you can buy a ps3 for 30 bucks and most games are pretty cheap so the potential earnings are very limited for third parties

sony on the other hand could for sure create an emulator that works if they wanted to. yes it might be harder to do well than for other console but common. if sony is unable to create an emulator they would be were they are right now.

the only things thats stopping them is that they dont want to do it. thats it. even the streams work buy having a ps3 running in the back

[DaivRules]

12 minutes ago, Alderriz said:

Do the current PS3 emulators even work that well? Last time I heard about the PS3 emulation on PC (a few years ago), the games like Red Dead Redemption ran at 6 FPS on a pretty powerful build.

Not really. If a game runs, even at 6 FPS on a powerful build, it would be categorized as Playable, which really skews the statistics they show about how many games are compatible. Most of the biggest titles, usually the Playstation studios, have problems running fluently. It does a decent enough job with less intense games, but you still need a decent computer, which is going to cost way more than a used PS3. 

[BGriff1986]

6 hours ago, Z1MZUM said:

It's just easier owning a Ps3, you can play Ps3 and Ps1 games. Ps2 is easy enough to find and adding a HD is even easier. There is one problem though, getting HDD through your PS2 can be dificult and expensive.

 

Edit;oops, I meant High Def

I’m not sure I’d class having to own 3 separate (and aging) consoles as “easier”. Yes, it’s the best option we have right now, but if somebody offered me the chance to have one box that does it all I’d jump at the chance

[OmegaRejectz]

18 hours ago, DaivRules said:

I don’t think Sony thinks they’re limiting an entire generation because they’re still selling PS3 games to PS3 owners who want to pay for them and they’re offering PS Now to people who couldn’t be bothered to buy a PS3 that they say they want to support, but don’t own or own any games for.

 

I would gladly pay $200-$250 for an external breakout box for my PS4 or PS5 that has a cell processor and allows me to play my PS3 collection on another console. But I also have two PS3s to play my collection and I regularly play on one of them. 

PS Now being offered to those who couldn't be bothered, doesn't work as an argument because it's offered to so few territories. It's actually baffling how many people can't access PS Now. And that's completely disregarding the fact that most people, in 2021, still don't have good enough internet to use PS Now.