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Tropes in Trophies


baboon_overlord

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I'm not a big fan of Anita Sarkeesian but the idea of tropes is, unironically, quite important. So well done Anita, I am going to give you some credit for this thread.

 

In this thread I will ask:

 

- Do trophy "tropes" need an overhaul?

- Is trophy design overall quite lazy?

- Are collectables now such a trope that they should be gotten rid of? (I have multiple games that I could otherwise Platinum relatively easily but I just have "collectable fatigue")

- What are your favorite Platinums and why? 

 

If someone has brought up some of/all the above previously I apologise. Having just collected all the feathers in Assassin's Creed 2, this is something that I have been thinking about for a long time and thought I would now post about.

 

Some of my responses to the above questions:

 

- Do trophy "tropes" need an overhaul?

 

I am someone who will ask people who, for example, are Industrial Designers the question: "Why do you you use pre-established conventions to design products? Are you basing your designs on what you have been taught or on your own research?" FACT: I am yet to speak to such a person who can even understand my question! WTF?

 

Copying everyone else is how the modern world works. I am very certain that most "trophy design" is copying everyone else with little to no innovation. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

- Is trophy design overall quite lazy?

 

I would say yes. See above.

 

- Are collectables now such a trope that they should be gotten rid of? (I have multiple games that I could otherwise Platinum relatively easily but I just have "collectable fatigue")

 

The plague of open world games. I would argue collectables at this point are a relic and are such a massive pain in the ass that they should be pretty much abandoned at this point. Thoughts?

 

- What are your favorite Platinums and why? 

 

I would say Metal Gear Solid 5: Phantom Pain - a pretty huge undertaking but otherwise a pretty fun and well thought through Plat.

 

Death Stranding: extremely well designed Plat IMHO.

 

Apart from a couple of brainless trophies, Witcher 3.

 

As much as I hated Rise of the Tomb Raider's Plat on paper, it was probably the most frustrating, yet satisfying Plat I have ever experienced. I was mystified by Shadow of the Tomb Raider's Plat  "design" when I thought the previous game had nailed it. 

 

This is a pretty broad topic, but I think encapsulating it makes sense. Looking forward to your thoughts.

Edited by baboon_overlord
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I don't know who Anita is and I don't think so deeply about trophies. They're just stuff to do in a game.

 

I must not be at your level to see what you're referring to as trophy tropes or how you're referring to the trophy designs. They just got a redesign in the PS5 icons.

 

I think my favorite platinum is Disgaea 3. Just a fun grind to get that one. Get rid of collectibles?! See the platinum I just referred to as my favorite.

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6 hours ago, baboon_overlord said:

I'm not a big fan of Anita Sarkeesian but the idea of tropes is, unironically, quite important. So well done Anita, I am going to give you some credit for this thread.

 

I am a fan of hers, and while some of the things she takes aim at are, well, me (as a straight, white, male gamer), I think her work on breaking down game tropes is interesting and important, and makes all the right people angry ?

 

You're asking a lot of questions here, but they're good ones, so if you'll permit me - I do have some thoughts.

 

 

6 hours ago, baboon_overlord said:

Do trophy "tropes" need an overhaul?

 

I think there are enough examples of good and bad trophy lists out there that my gut instinct is to say no - I don't think what is wrong with some lists is tropes within the trophy lists necessarily - it's tropes within the games.  The trophy lists just reflect those. 

 

 

 

Quote

- Is trophy design overall quite lazy?

 

This is an interesting one I think - as it gets into the effect a good or bad trophy list has on the experience of a game - whether it enhances it, or works against it.

 

Im going to break this down into 4 possible categories here, 2 of which are broadly good, and enhance the experience, and 2 of which I think are bad, and work to its detriment.

 

(obviously, there are loads of games that don't fall into any of these categories, or straddle more than one of them, but in those cases, I think the trophy list is a zero-sum game in terms of enhancing or detracting from the overall experience - these are just the 4 situations where the trophy list can make a material difference to it.)

 

 

Interesting Game/ dull list = GOOD

 

If the game is really good, or interesting or original (of all of the above hopefully), then it doesn't really matter if the trophy list itself is pretty standard fare - playing it will still be fun. The trophy list can just be a simple list of 'complete level x', 'Defeat Boss Y', 'Finish game on Z difficulty' - and actually, for some games, when the game is good in and of itself, the simpler the trophy list the better.

 

For example - I recently played (and loved) Invisible Inc

 

That game is utterly incredible in its variety and in the billions of possible ways to play - but the trophy list is very simple and non-gameplay prescriptive. It doesn't give trophies for playing a certain way, just for succeeding at playing however you choose to. That is great, as it does not funnel the player towards a certain play style - it rewards them for playing however they choose to, as long as it works!

 

Unoriginal Game/ interesting list = GOOD

 

On the flip-side though, a fairly bog-standard game can be very much enhanced with a good trophy list. Take something like the Dead Rising games.

There are fairly bog standard Zombie killing fare - fun, but not highly original. However, the first 2 at least, have very interesting, often bizarre actions to complete on tier trophy lists, that most people would not think to do as part of a normal playthrough, so essentially the game becomes a platform for the trophy list, rather than the other way around. 

I'd wager that the people who loved those games enough to get the platinums liked the fact that they had to do some real strange stuff to get them, and had more fun with getting the more esoteric trophies than they did with just plowing through the game with whatever weapon was the most efficient. 

 

 

Unoriginal Game / Dull List = BAD

 

Hardly needs to be said, but of course, if the game has nothing much interesting going for it, and the list is pretty dull, standard fare, that is not a good combo. I won't give examples, as I don't want to spend time finding a game, only to end up insulting someone who it turns out that is their favourite game or something, but you know what I mean.

 

 

Interesting Game/ Interesting list = WILDCARD - USUALLY BAD?

 

This is the weird one I guess.

 

Could be great, but I tend to think that if the game is very interesting and allows for a lot of different playstyle variations and out of the box thinking, then putting in specific trophies tied to playing a certain way can actually have a broadly negative impact.

 

For example, I really liked Cities Skyline, and enjoyed playing it for the 100% quite a bit.

That game allows for a huge variety of city types to build, but towards the end of my time with it the trophy list began to grate on me a little, as the only ones left were for doing things that my particular city building tastes just didn't cater to - and I ended up having to make entire new cities, or fuck up the ones I had meticulously slaved over to run a certain way, just to satisfy specific trophy requirements. that actually worked against the game experience I found, as my memory of a game I generally loved, is a little tarnished by those last trophy runs.

 

 

 

 

Quote

- Are collectables now such a trope that they should be gotten rid of? (I have multiple games that I could otherwise Platinum relatively easily but I just have "collectable fatigue")

 

Not really - but I do have a big gripe with collectibles trophies - they should NEVER be for "collect EVERY X".

 

They should be for "Collect 90% of X", or "Collect Y number of X" - where Y is at least a little lower than the total number.

 

Why?

 

Because if the trophy is for collect EVERY one, then the dev is just encouraging guide use, and causing FOMO anxiety in the gamer.

They will worry about missable, and if they want to avoid an entire new play through (ads a lot of people do) they will end up deferring to a guide.

 

If, on the other hand, they allow you to miss a few, without penalty, then they are actually doing what I think collectibles are supposed to do - encourage you to explore and try to find things on your own, without being putative if you do miss the occasional one.

That mean you don't end up using a guide - you just end up exploring.

 

Far Cry games (from FC3 onwards at least) have always been good at this - they give the trophy fore finding a lot of the collectibles, but you can miss some without it being a platinum blocker.

 

Exploring in games is fun!

Following a collectibles guide is not.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

The plague of open world games. I would argue collectables at this point are a relic and are such a massive pain in the ass that they should be pretty much abandoned at this point. Thoughts?

 

Nope.

 

I love a good open world game, and I love a good non-open world game. 

 

The genres are never the issue to me. Just the quality.

 

AC Odyssey is one of the biggest open world games out there, and the subject of a lot of "Open World Fatigue" type complaints.... and I loved every second of that game!

 

I never want to get rid of a genre just because I don't like it -because some people do.

 

I don't like sports games, or Sim-Racers, or most survival games - but I'm happy to live and let live. I don't have to play them.

 

 

 

 

Quote

- What are your favorite Platinums and why? 

 

 

Too many to count, or to list, and I've taken up too much space here already - but a few immediate ones that spring to minds are:

 

Invisible Inc

Prey

Dishonoured 2

Portal 2

Hitman 3

Dead Cells

Dandara

Sekiro

Lumines

Every Housemarque game

The Surge

Every single Soulborne Game

Salt and Sanctuary

 

...

 

 

I could go on and on and on ?

 

 

 

 

Edited by DrBloodmoney
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22 hours ago, DaivRules said:

 

I don't know who Anita is and I don't think so deeply about trophies. They're just stuff to do in a game.

 

I must not be at your level to see what you're referring to as trophy tropes or how you're referring to the trophy designs. They just got a redesign in the PS5 icons.

 

I think my favorite platinum is Disgaea 3. Just a fun grind to get that one. Get rid of collectibles?! See the platinum I just referred to as my favorite.

Alright let me be a bit more specific. For example, MGS5:TPP has quite a few collectables, but they aren't really conventional. Getting the cassette tapes is pretty straight forward and there aren't too many of them.

 

Finding and catching the rare animals is actually kind of fun, and doesn't take much effort as you just deploy traps as you play the game.

 

Technically, Red Dead Redemption's Zoology and Skin Deep trophies are collectables, but what Rockstar did with those was almost unbelievable. You had to scout, hunt and skin animals to add to the collection. The fun of it was, it was just like real hunting. You couldn't just expect to rock up to an area and kill every species on demand. Those trophies almost drove me insane (an Excel spreadsheet and two Word documents) but that is the kind of trophy design I actually like.

 

What annoys me is lazy trophy design. Take Asssassin's Creed 2 or LA Noire (ironically also a Rockstar game). Build a massive open world and then fill it with collectables that aren't marked on a map. The only way (for me) to get these done without missing anything is to get a map of where everything is, find it, and mark it off on Adobe Fireworks with a rectangle covering the location.

 

I don't find this fun and it's a giant pain in the ass.

 

My point is, I think this sort of trophy needs to go away and we need more innovation, hence the term "tropes".

 

This isn't to do with trophy artwork. I'm talking about trophy design itself.

 

16 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

I am a fan of hers, and while some of the things she takes aim at are, well, me (as a straight, white, male gamer), I think her work on breaking down game tropes is interesting and important, and makes all the right people angry 1f602.png

 

You're asking a lot of questions here, but they're good ones, so if you'll permit me - I do have some thoughts.

Thanks for giving it to me straight Doc!

 

This is an absolutely astounding post. Thank you so much for such a brilliant and detailed reply.

 

It's late here but I am definitely going to reply in detail tomorrow (whelp, today). I'm really glad my post gave you some food for thought. 

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2 minutes ago, baboon_overlord said:

What annoys me is lazy trophy design. Take Asssassin's Creed 2 or LA Noire (ironically also a Rockstar game). Build a massive open world and then fill it with collectables that aren't marked on a map. The only way (for me) to get these done without missing anything is to get a map of where everything is, find it, and mark it off on Adobe Fireworks with a rectangle covering the location.

 

I don't find this fun and it's a giant pain in the ass.

 

My point is, I think this sort of trophy needs to go away and we need more innovation, hence the term "tropes".

 

This isn't to do with trophy artwork. I'm talking about trophy design itself.


Sounds like you’re specifically referring to trophy objectives when you say trophy design then. 
 

I’m okay with pretty much any kind of trophy objective except forced play time. Disgaea has trophy chasers pulling multiple spreadsheets for hundreds of collectibles and some have to be harvested to get further collectibles and I love every part of it. Collecting hundreds of armors, weapons, items, fighting animations, it’s all so over the top and it’s great. 
 

But Treasures of Montezuma Blitz has not only a limited number of times you can play per day, but a force number of hours to earn a trophy, and then had the gall to crash fairly often, eliminating dozens of accumulated playtime minutes when it did. 
 

Aside from that, it’s the developers call to add in whatever they want and if they feel that’s the best way for players to engage with their games, doesn’t really bother me. 

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15 minutes ago, baboon_overlord said:

Alright let me be a bit more specific. For example, MGS5:TPP has quite a few collectables, but they aren't really conventional. Getting the cassette tapes is pretty straight forward and there aren't too many of them.

 

Finding and catching the rare animals is actually kind of fun, and doesn't take much effort as you just deploy traps as you play the game.

 

Technically, Red Dead Redemption's Zoology and Skin Deep trophies are collectables, but what Rockstar did with those was almost unbelievable. You had to scout, hunt and skin animals to add to the collection. The fun of it was, it was just like real hunting. You couldn't just expect to rock up to an area and kill every species on demand. Those trophies almost drove me insane (an Excel spreadsheet and two Word documents) but that is the kind of trophy design I actually like.

 

What annoys me is lazy trophy design. Take Asssassin's Creed 2 or LA Noire (ironically also a Rockstar game). Build a massive open world and then fill it with collectables that aren't marked on a map. The only way (for me) to get these done without missing anything is to get a map of where everything is, find it, and mark it off on Adobe Fireworks with a rectangle covering the location.

 

I don't find this fun and it's a giant pain in the ass.

 

My point is, I think this sort of trophy needs to go away and we need more innovation, hence the term "tropes".

 

This isn't to do with trophy artwork. I'm talking about trophy design itself.

 

You kind of have to give AC 2 a pass though. It originally came out in 2009, when trophies and trophy tropes haven't been well established at that point yet. The remaster just didn't bother changing the trophies because why would/should they? Because 100 feathers by today's standards is not bad at all. And the rest of the Ezio Trilogy had the annoying multiplayer trophies removed even. 

 

DrBloodmoney laid it out so well I don't even feel the need to add anything else, as I agree that it really depends on the game and personal taste. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it needs to change/be abolished because it's not hurting anybody in its existence and other people might love it.

 

I got extremely burnt out playing AC Origins on my old account, and I wasn't even that far into it. I was too intimidated to even progress because I knew how much was going to be needed to get the platinum. Yet someone else may not have even been able to put it down because it was just the best game they've ever played in their entire life. You don't know. This goes for both the game quality and the trophy list quality. Some people love exploring every nook and cranny for shinies that serve no other purpose than to unlock a trophy. I do too for the most part. But it depends on the game. 

 

 

Edited by Savage_Sarabi
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3 minutes ago, DaivRules said:


Sounds like you’re specifically referring to trophy objectives when you say trophy design then. 

Yes, I think that's correct. But calling it trophy design is fair, in the same was as you would say game design, or any other component of a game that has a design element.

 

At the end of the day, trophy requirements/objectives are designed by default.

 

If I pick a really simple example of a game I played recently that I thought had a brilliant trophy list and overall game design. Reverie. I bought it because it was on sale and has a PS4/Vita stack. And I love me a PS4/Vita stack on sale. ☺️

 

It's a 2D Zelda clone. The game itself is actually awesome. But the trophy design is also brilliant. Most of the trophies are "jokes", many of them involving New Zealand, but many of them are not and are genuinely funny. For example, you get health by eating pizza slices after smashing crates or killing enemies. In the menu, you can choose whether to have "pineapple on pizza" switched on or off (the default is on). By changing the setting to off, the trophy is called "The Right Side of History". Brilliant.

 

While I'm on that subject,let me tell a quick story. When I lived in Dubai, I couldn't find a good pizza restaurant anywhere.I found a forum where this subject was being discussed (best pizza in Dubai).

 

Some poor English person complained that he couldn't find a good Hawaiian pizza anywhere in Dubai. He was instantly besieged by dozens of Italians saying "that wasn't pizza".

 

One Italian person said "would you like pineapple in your steak and kidney pudding? NOOOOO!".

 

Then I watched a video of an interview with Tulsi Gabbard and she was asked about Hawaiian pizzas. She said "we love pineapple in Hawaii, but we would never put it on our pizzas".

 

So if Italians hate pineapple on pizza and Hawaiians hate pineapple on pizza, where does pineapple on pizza come from? That made me laugh I have to say.

  

 

  

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9 minutes ago, Savage_Sarabi said:

DrBloodmoney laid it out so well I don't even feel the need to add anything else, as I agree that it really depends on the game and personal taste. Just because you don't like something, doesn't mean it needs to change/be abolished because it's not hurting anybody in its existence and other people might love it.

You raise a lot of fair points here. Games that are specifically grinding my gears at the moment include:

 

- Dante's Inferno - things like Judas Coins don't stack over playthroughs. Miss something and you have to do yet another playthrough and there is no chapter select.

- Tomb Raider: Underworld: The collectables in this game suck monumentally. It's almost impossible to find them all manually (I really, really tried). Text walkthroughs are useless, there are no useful maps and I despise video walkthroughs.

 

You are absolutely correct to flag that these are old games, and I accept that.

 

I'm not dissing Assassin's Creed 2 at all. I thought the game was fantastic - the graphics, to me, didn't look dated or bad at all. It's a brilliant game. The only thing I hated, other than the feathers, were the controls. At times they decided to go onto autopilot, mostly at the time when you were being timed. I spent quite a lot of my playthrough shouting at the television, ☺️

 

I just managed to get Brotherhood and Revelations for PS3 for less than £5. I won't bother with the multiplayer - I just want to enjoy some PS3 games and will get all the single player trophies, and will probably buy the DLC as well. So I don't hate the game by any means. 

 

But since you raise the subject, I absolutely HATE multiplayer trophies in single player games.

 

Quite frankly, I would be more than happy for multiplayer to have a separate trophy list with a Platinum. If there are one or two multiplayer trophies in a game, I would rather they weren't there but if they have to be, fine. But otherwise, I would much rather multiplayer be its own separate thing because I have no interest in it whatsoever.    

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19 minutes ago, baboon_overlord said:

I just managed to get Brotherhood and Revelations for PS3 for less than £5. I won't bother with the multiplayer - I just want to enjoy some PS3 games and will get all the single player trophies, and will probably buy the DLC as well. So I don't hate the game by any means. 

 

But since you raise the subject, I absolutely HATE multiplayer trophies in single player games.

Oh man, thanks for the memories. I hate multiplayer trophies too for the most part (I think that's the general consensus) but my favourite memory of playing a multiplayer game was for Brotherhood (I did get the ps3 platinum on another account). I had a boosting group of 8 and we were grinding XP. We all got together on a roof and literally just traded stuns. We were all just standing there slapping each other. So funny. Totally irrelevant to your post sorry. 

 

Multiplayer trophies though I don't think are the worst. This also depends on taste and what the trophies are. Brotherhood was just stupid. Even with boosting it took way too long to do. Uncharted 4 just had you basically try out the multiplayer for the platinum and I was actually enjoying it to the point I was playing beyond the trophies.  

 

Missable trophies also should just not be a thing. I don't think anybody enjoys the idea of essentially wasting time to go back to figure out what they missed. That dlc for The Witcher 3 is one that I believe I heard people complaining about. I guess it had a few missables that cheesed people off who weren't aware. I think my own bf was one of those people lol. 

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50 minutes ago, Savage_Sarabi said:

Oh man, thanks for the memories. I hate multiplayer trophies too (I think that's the general consensus) but my favourite memory of playing a multiplayer game was for Brotherhood (I did get the ps3 platinum on another account). I had a boosting group of 8 and we were grinding XP. We all got together on a roof and literally just traded stuns. We were all just standing there slapping each other. So funny. Totally irrelevant to your post sorry. 

 

Multiplayer trophies I don't think are the worst. This also depends on taste and what the trophies are. Brotherhood was just stupid. Even with boosting it took way too long to do. Uncharted 4 just had you basically try out the multiplayer for the platinum. 

 

Missable trophies also should just not be a thing. I don't think anybody enjoys the idea of essentially wasting time to go back to figure out what they missed. That dlc for The Witcher 3 is one that I believe I heard people complaining about. I guess it had a few missables that cheesed people off who weren't aware. I think my own bf was one of those people lol. 

This is an excellent post and this is kind of what I wanted to expand the conversation into, so thank you. I should really have included a lot more in my OP but, being me, I have to be too "clever" about how I do things.

 

One of my biggest gripes with multiplayer trophies in single player games is that once the servers get shut down, that means no platinum for you, ever (I, like you had an old account and I think I had all but two Uncharted 3 trophies. I had about a thousand hours in that game, the only multiplayer game I actually ever cared about. As soon as I heard that the servers were going down, I jumped on Uncharted 2 and 3 MP to get the main trophies on my new account).

 

It's not because you weren't skilful enough or smart enough to get the Plat, it's because the dev thought it would be a great idea to incorporate MP trophies into their game and I think it's just a stupid idea. As I said, I literally wouldn't care if games had two Plats - one for single payer and one for multiplayer. 

 

Take Ghost of Tsushima for example. While I applaud the devs for giving away a 100% free MP experience, I'm more than a little cheesed off that my 100% has now gone down to an 81%. I mean, I'm not someone who really cares about my completion percentage but I can imagine that some people on this site really care. But, as is my style, that is a digression.

 

I have my own concept called "Single Player Platinum". So in the case of Red Dead 2, the Best in the West trophy is, to me, the single player Plat.

 

There is no way I am going to play the multiplayer. I have no desire to spend another minute in that game as I have literally played it to death.

 

In that game, the 100% all objectives trophy is one of the worst pieces of trophy design I have ever seen. In RD1 or say, Metal Gear Solid 5, you get the objectives by replaying missions (it's kind of the point). Some objectives are mutually exclusive, so you have to do multiple playthroughs to get all the objectives (I think the Grand Theft Auto games are the same). This is a great example of good trophy design and literally the point of trophies - replayability (ok RD1 only has one trophy for replaying a mission with all objectives but you get the point). 

 

In RD2 you have to get ALL the objectives simultaneously in one go. If you try and do them after finishing the game, you lose all of your upgrades and items. Instead of starting the mission at the start, you have to go through the interactive cutscene and ride off to the destination. It's a piece of shit. Red Dead 2 is a masterpiece but its trophy design is one of the worst I can think of. Kudos to anyone who got the Plat, but the trophy design is basically an exercise in "how can we waste these poor people's time to the maximum extent?". It's basically a piss take.

 

Thank you for highlighting missable trophies. Now we are getting into some good meat of the discussion and I apologize for not including this in my OP (although I kind of did with collectables, not all games give you the luxury of chapter select or post game cleanup).

 

I have quite a few games that I am itching to play, but I know for a fact I only want to play through once. I really don't want to have to read a trophy guide to know which parts I need to pay attention to. Especially if that means reading possible story spoilers while I do my checking.

 

In terms of Witcher 3, I had so many saves that I was able to mop up all the missables with no problems - I've 100%ed the game and DLCs. But I agree, that would really suck in such a massive game (although I probably wouldn't have minded, I've played it four times to completion now, it's probably my favourite game of all time ☺️). 

 

Edited by baboon_overlord
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Well to add to this discussion I just thought of what has to be, my least favourite type of trophy. It is the collectible that gives you a hint of where to go, but then you have to go figure out where it's referring to. For example, Watch Dogs Legion has a trophy I think called Finding Bagley where it gives you a photo and you have to find the location that's not marked on the map and figure out where the collectible is (I don't remember the exact details but it's something like that). This is precisely why I stopped playing the game: because I was too lazy to look them up and I have since moved on to other games. I believe, iirc, Spiderman had something like that too but it wasn't hard to figure out because Spiderman had commentary for where you should look and landmarks are marked on your map. 

 

I would honestly rather find 100 more shinies dotted around the map than do that sort of nonsense that I have to look up to find, even if it doesn't take long. 

 

And yes I absolutely agree RDR2 has some of the most ridiculous trophy requirements I have ever seen. So long-winded and kind of presumptuous that they think people would want to dedicate that much time to their game to achieve the platinum. I'm not sure if Rockstar even considers trophy hunters when they design their trophies (probably not?) but they basically either scare them away, or the ones that do decide to go after it have to invest multiple-hundred hours to achieve it. Considering the average AAA game only takes like 20-40 hours, it's pretty insane. 

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I don't know who Anita is, never heard of her but had a quick Google. As for your questions

 Do trophy "tropes" need an overhaul?

I don't really get what this means, so I can't answer it. 

 

- Is trophy design overall quite lazy?

I think for some games it is, while for other games it's not. I think that in games that are part of a series, the trophy lists get quite repetitive and are the same across the games. Like most if not all Tales games want to you get all the titles, complete the monster and collectors item books. Disgaea games also have similar trophy lists across the series and take forever to achieve. 

 

- Are collectables now such a trope that they should be gotten rid of? (I have multiple games that I could otherwise Platinum relatively easily but I just have "collectable fatigue")

I think maybe not having them 100%. i think making the player collect like 90% or something like that would be a lot better, as having to get every single item/fight every enemy or whatever is so time consuming in some games. I have a couple of Tales and Final Fantasy platinums, and most have collectable trophies which made the games take 100+ hours to complete. I found Tales of Berseria, Vesperia, FFXII and XIII to be particularly grindy. I've not bothered with FFX, Symphonia or Zestiria because of their stupid collectable trophies taking a million years to complete. I hate missable trophies and also online trophies, they are a pain in the butt and force you to use a walkthrough. I tried going back to Zestiria and FFX but lost motivation after a few mins, I just completed the story in these games and would have to invest 100+ hours of my leave into each of these games to platinum, which I can't be bothered to do at this rate with the PS5 and all the new games coming out. I would rather invest my time in newer games like P5R which I'm getting next and the new Nier game rather than digging out my PS3 from my mums house, which is also in another country anyway. 

 

- What are your favorite Platinums and why? 

Persona 4 Golden is my favourite game, so that's my favourite platinum. It was also my longest plat taking 153 hours, longer than all my FF and Tales plats. It was so fun though, I was addicted to this game. 

I also like my Tales of Vesperia platinum, Tales of Xillia 2, FF12 and FFX-2 plats as they were all fairly time consuming crossing the 100 hour mark with some challenging bits.

Kingdom Hearts 3 was a satisfying plat as those mini games murdered me many times but it felt good after beating them all. 

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On 23/04/2021 at 11:09 AM, DrBloodmoney said:

 

I am a fan of hers, and while some of the things she takes aim at are, well, me (as a straight, white, male gamer), I think her work on breaking down game tropes is interesting and important, and makes all the right people angry 1f602.png

I'm not saying she doesn't have good points. I personally like well written female characters, I think women who would fall over in real life are ridiculous as well. I'm extremely happy to play games with female protagonists, and I find it difficult to believe that there are that many unreconstructed cavemen playing video games for anyone to think that might be a problem. 

 

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You're asking a lot of questions here, but they're good ones, so if you'll permit me - I do have some thoughts.


I think there are enough examples of good and bad trophy lists out there that my gut instinct is to say no - I don't think what is wrong with some lists is tropes within the trophy lists necessarily - it's tropes within the games.  The trophy lists just reflect those. 

 

This is an interesting one I think - as it gets into the effect a good or bad trophy list has on the experience of a game - whether it enhances it, or works against it.

 

Im going to break this down into 4 possible categories here, 2 of which are broadly good, and enhance the experience, and 2 of which I think are bad, and work to its detriment.

 

(obviously, there are loads of games that don't fall into any of these categories, or straddle more than one of them, but in those cases, I think the trophy list is a zero-sum game in terms of enhancing or detracting from the overall experience - these are just the 4 situations where the trophy list can make a material difference to it.)

 

Interesting Game/ dull list = GOOD

 

If the game is really good, or interesting or original (of all of the above hopefully), then it doesn't really matter if the trophy list itself is pretty standard fare - playing it will still be fun. The trophy list can just be a simple list of 'complete level x', 'Defeat Boss Y', 'Finish game on Z difficulty' - and actually, for some games, when the game is good in and of itself, the simpler the trophy list the better.

 

For example - I recently played (and loved) Invisible Inc

 

That game is utterly incredible in its variety and in the billions of possible ways to play - but the trophy list is very simple and non-gameplay prescriptive. It doesn't give trophies for playing a certain way, just for succeeding at playing however you choose to. That is great, as it does not funnel the player towards a certain play style - it rewards them for playing however they choose to, as long as it works

Thanks, I'm going to check Invisible Inc (just added to my https://platprices.com/ shortlist, £3.99 currently. Hmmmmm ☺️). I just played Trine 2 this weekend and I really liked the way you could get past obstacles in many different ways.

 

I've also been enjoying some roguelite games recently, what I like about those is you can basically make hunting a specific trophy your objective for that particular run. Pretty cool (especially when a lot of those games kind of games have Ultra Rares).

 

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Unoriginal Game/ interesting list = GOOD

 

On the flip-side though, a fairly bog-standard game can be very much enhanced with a good trophy list. Take something like the Dead Rising games.

There are fairly bog standard Zombie killing fare - fun, but not highly original. However, the first 2 at least, have very interesting, often bizarre actions to complete on tier trophy lists, that most people would not think to do as part of a normal playthrough, so essentially the game becomes a platform for the trophy list, rather than the other way around. 

I'd wager that the people who loved those games enough to get the platinums liked the fact that they had to do some real strange stuff to get them, and had more fun with getting the more esoteric trophies than they did with just plowing through the game with whatever weapon was the most efficient. 

 

Interesting. Maybe SOCOM:4 falls into that category. Not the most original game but I had a lot of fun getting most of the trophies. Not sure I can endure the idiotic teammates on the hardest difficulty for the Plat though....☺️

 

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Unoriginal Game / Dull List = BAD

 

Hardly needs to be said, but of course, if the game has nothing much interesting going for it, and the list is pretty dull, standard fare, that is not a good combo. I won't give examples, as I don't want to spend time finding a game, only to end up insulting someone who it turns out that is their favourite game or something, but you know what I mean.

I'll bite on this one. I played Magus recently. A game that was so bad it was actually amazing. The trophies were pretty terrible too, but I had a blast playing that and getting the Plat! 

 

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Interesting Game/ Interesting list = WILDCARD - USUALLY BAD?

 

This is the weird one I guess.

That's some good out of the box thinking. I'm actually struggling to think ff any examples, but the word "multiplayer" keeps coming to mind for some reason.

 

I suppose an RPG where you would have to play as a complete evil asshole for a trophy when you really don't want to might be an example?

 

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Not really - but I do have a big gripe with collectibles trophies - they should NEVER be for "collect EVERY X".

 

They should be for "Collect 90% of X", or "Collect Y number of X" - where Y is at least a little lower than the total number.

 

Why?

 

Because if the trophy is for collect EVERY one, then the dev is just encouraging guide use, and causing FOMO anxiety in the gamer.

They will worry about missable, and if they want to avoid an entire new play through (ads a lot of people do) they will end up deferring to a guide.

 

If, on the other hand, they allow you to miss a few, without penalty, then they are actually doing what I think collectibles are supposed to do - encourage you to explore and try to find things on your own, without being putative if you do miss the occasional one.

That mean you don't end up using a guide - you just end up exploring.

I agree with this 100%. I can see why games like AC and Dragon Age: Inquisition put these kinds of collectables in - it's to make you explore the huge world they built which you might otherwise not bother with.

 

But that leads to another point: why bother building the huge world if the entire purpose is to just get a collectable for a few seconds and never visit that place ever again?

 

There is definitely a lot of overlap with trophy design and game design, but if the game design suffers just to make some "annoying" trophies then that's clearly not the right way round.

 

I definitely agree with the anxiety as well. I always get paranoid that the trophy will glitch when doing ludicrous collectable challenges so end up making a USB/Cloud backup of my game on regular intervals, which makes the process take even longer.

 

Having a "collect x%" also means that if anything did glitch out, there would still be more than enough to collect. If you need 100/100 and one glitches out you are screwed.

 

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Exploring in games is fun!

Following a collectibles guide is not.

Amen brother.

 

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AC Odyssey is one of the biggest open world games out there, and the subject of a lot of "Open World Fatigue" type complaints.... and I loved every second of that game!

I loved it to. Took a break from it though, still need to do most of the DLC.

 

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Too many to count, or to list, and I've taken up too much space here already - but a few immediate ones that spring to minds are:

 

Invisible Inc

Prey

Dishonoured 2

Portal 2

Hitman 3

Dead Cells

Dandara

Sekiro

Lumines

Every Housemarque game

The Surge

Every single Soulborne Game

Salt and Sanctuary

Much appreciated, I haven't got any of those. 

 

Without wanting to start World War 3, I have played a few bits and pieces of FromSoftware games and my impression was that they force the player to do what the developer wants you to do to advance, whereas I really like games where you choose how to move forward. I may be wrong, but my brother has completed a lot of games they made, and he didn't disagree with me when I asked him about this

 

Thanks again for the great post..

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11 hours ago, Lava_Yuki said:

I don't know who Anita is, never heard of her but had a quick Google. As for your questions

 Do trophy "tropes" need an overhaul?

I don't really get what this means, so I can't answer it. 

Hi Lava. Anita did a video series called "Tropes in Video Games". It was critiquing video games through a feminist lens. I thought it would make a good forum topic name as I couldn't think of anything else that would fit.

 

What I mean is, have we reached a stage where most trophies are just developers copying other developers and there is no longer any/much innovation. In other words, can we make trophy hunting more fun and more engaging, and less of a pain in the ass.

 

By that I don't mean make trophies easier. I would rather have more difficult trophies instead of trophies that make you grind for hours at a time. Those trophies do nothing other than prove you can be bothered to sit there grinding and are in my view, a bit pointless.


I also don't like trophies that waste people's time for no real reason. Trophies were originally invented to give games replayability, as far as I understand.

 

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I think for some games it is, while for other games it's not. I think that in games that are part of a series, the trophy lists get quite repetitive and are the same across the games. 

I think you can add Uncharted and a lot of AAA games to that as well.

 

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- Are collectables now such a trope that they should be gotten rid of? (I have multiple games that I could otherwise Platinum relatively easily but I just have "collectable fatigue")I think maybe not having them 100%. i think making the player collect like 90% or something like that would be a lot better, as having to get every single item/fight every enemy or whatever is so time consuming in some games. I have a couple of Tales and Final Fantasy platinums, and most have collectable trophies which made the games take 100+ hours to complete. I found Tales of Berseria, Vesperia, FFXII and XIII to be particularly grindy. I've not bothered with FFX, Symphonia or Zestiria because of their stupid collectable trophies taking a million years to complete.

I keep looking at the games you mentioned and I'm quite interested in them, but the trophy lists really don't appeal to me right now.

 

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I hate missable trophies and also online trophies, they are a pain in the butt and force you to use a walkthrough.

I don't hate missable trophies unless the game design is badly designed in respect to them. For example, there is only one save file, there is no chapter select and the game is massive. Now that I really hate. ☺️

 

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- What are your favorite Platinums and why? 

Persona 4 Golden is my favourite game, so that's my favourite platinum. It was also my longest plat taking 153 hours, longer than all my FF and Tales plats. It was so fun though, I was addicted to this game. 

I also like my Tales of Vesperia platinum, Tales of Xillia 2, FF12 and FFX-2 plats as they were all fairly time consuming crossing the 100 hour mark with some challenging bits.

Kingdom Hearts 3 was a satisfying plat as those mini games murdered me many times but it felt good after beating them all. 

I didn't realize Persona 4 Golden took so long to complete. I am going to buy that next month on Vita. It is the kind of game you can dip in and out of or is it better to play in longer sessions?

 

The reason I ask is that I generally play my Vita in short bursts. I'd love to say I play Vita when I'm travelling but I only got one in September last year and....well....haven't been able to do much travelling recently for some reason. ?  

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On 26/04/2021 at 9:36 PM, baboon_overlord said:

Hi Lava. Anita did a video series called "Tropes in Video Games". It was critiquing video games through a feminist lens. I thought it would make a good forum topic name as I couldn't think of anything else that would fit.

 

By that I don't mean make trophies easier. I would rather have more difficult trophies instead of trophies that make you grind for hours at a time. Those trophies do nothing other than prove you can be bothered to sit there grinding and are in my view, a bit pointless.

 

I don't hate missable trophies unless the game design is badly designed in respect to them. For example, there is only one save file, there is no chapter select and the game is massive. Now that I really hate. 263a.png

 

I didn't realize Persona 4 Golden took so long to complete. I am going to buy that next month on Vita. It is the kind of game you can dip in and out of or is it better to play in longer sessions?

 

The reason I ask is that I generally play my Vita in short bursts. I'd love to say I play Vita when I'm travelling but I only got one in September last year and....well....haven't been able to do much travelling recently for some reason. 1f914.png  

Cheers thanks! Right, I never thought of looking at gaming through a feminist lens, but I can see it can form a good debate with design of female video game characters, like only having female characters in revealing clothes but not males is the main one I can think off. You see lots of sexy female characters but not so much for males who mostly look pretty normal

 

I agree with trophies, I think some games have super lazy pointless trophies, like in disgaea 4 there is atrophy for just watching the opening theme song... it seemed super lazy to me. That game also has the most insanely grindy and RNG based trophies ever, I played it on PS3 and gave up the post game stuff because of how unappealing the trophy list was! They seemed to make the trophy lists better with subsequent games in the series though. 

 

All JRPGs i have played don't have chapter select but most have missable trophies. I think FF7 and FF13-2 allowed you to replay areas/chapters which was great, I wish more games had that. 

 

Persona games are all super long! But with the vita sleep mode feature, you can dip in and out easily.  I think it's a minimum 100 hour game even on easy mode as it's very story based and more for the platinum if you never played a persona game before. It is an amazing game though so if you plan on getting a vita, it's a must! The guide on here (the platinum walkthrough one) is ace if you go for trophies.  

 

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On 30/04/2021 at 11:04 PM, Lava_Yuki said:

Cheers thanks! Right, I never thought of looking at gaming through a feminist lens, but I can see it can form a good debate with design of female video game characters, like only having female characters in revealing clothes but not males is the main one I can think off. You see lots of sexy female characters but not so much for males who mostly look pretty normal

Yes, I agree that it is kind of stupid to have semi-naked women and clothed men. But I think that has died a death pretty much now though (although I am sure that a lot of Japanese games still do this). I think Anita was WAY behind the curve, generally speaking.

 

I find it distasteful, although I would note, I'm playing Assassin's Creed Brotherhood right now and the "sex scene" at the beginning has Ezio naked and the female with her corset and knickers on, despite them having sex. I'm assuming this is due to the idiotic regulations. You can say "fuck" all day long in a game but if you show a female nipple, then it's 18 rated (Assassin's Creed games are generally rated 15).

 

Why is a man's nipple not a problem and a woman's nipple is somehow "haram" (sorry, lived in Dubai)? 

 

It makes no sense to me.

 

It reminds me of an inverse trend in the 90s and naughties of bands wanting to get their albums "X rated" so they would casually drop the "c" word, once, for little to no reason, just to give their album some "infamy".

 

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I agree with trophies, I think some games have super lazy pointless trophies, like in disgaea 4 there is atrophy for just watching the opening theme song... it seemed super lazy to me. That game also has the most insanely grindy and RNG based trophies ever, I played it on PS3 and gave up the post game stuff because of how unappealing the trophy list was! They seemed to make the trophy lists better with subsequent games in the series though. 

I agree that RNG based trophies suck. I would much rather trophies be skill based. This criticism also applies to grindy trophies.

 

I am going to laugh here. I just got my rarest ever trophy the other day. What's so clever about this trophy is, it's obviously a grind normally. But, it's also an intelligence test. If you have a good brain, you can easily get the trophy with no grinding. I will say no more. ☺️

 

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All JRPGs i have played don't have chapter select but most have missable trophies. I think FF7 and FF13-2 allowed you to replay areas/chapters which was great, I wish more games had that. 

Well, my instinct when seeing JRPGs is to recoil in horror ☺️

 

I watched a very cool YouTube video which described how JRPGs came into existence - they didn't exist until some Japanese guys played Western RPGs. But that was like forty years ago. 

 

I watched this great video once where Shadiversity described our obsession with Asian martial arts. 

 

Yes, these guys were AMAZING at killing people, but the problem was the West had developed force-multiplication, so we could kill way more people way more quickly than the Asians could. But somehow, we romanticize the Asian way of doing it.

 

Despite my grave concerns,I am going to play some JRPGs. I'm sure they can't be as bad as I think, and I like testing my boundaries.

 

I have to say, despite the uwu and other nonsense (that I really despise) Dragon's Dogma is a Japanese take on a Western RPG and it's one of my favorite games of all time. The overall story is Kojima level, the game is perfect. It's also the only game I have ever seen that fully implements Chiaroscuro - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chiaroscuro

 

An incredible game. 

 

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Persona games are all super long! But with the vita sleep mode feature, you can dip in and out easily.  I think it's a minimum 100 hour game even on easy mode as it's very story based and more for the platinum if you never played a persona game before. It is an amazing game though so if you plan on getting a vita, it's a must! The guide on here (the platinum walkthrough one) is ace if you go for trophies.  

Thank you for this, I greatly appreciate it. 

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On 4/22/2021 at 9:12 PM, baboon_overlord said:

I'm not a big fan of Anita Sarkeesian but the idea of tropes is, unironically, quite important. So well done Anita, I am going to give you some credit for this thread.

 

In this thread I will ask:

 

- Do trophy "tropes" need an overhaul?

- Is trophy design overall quite lazy?

- Are collectables now such a trope that they should be gotten rid of? (I have multiple games that I could otherwise Platinum relatively easily but I just have "collectable fatigue")

- What are your favorite Platinums and why? 

 

If someone has brought up some of/all the above previously I apologise. Having just collected all the feathers in Assassin's Creed 2, this is something that I have been thinking about for a long time and thought I would now post about.

 

Some of my responses to the above questions:

 

- Do trophy "tropes" need an overhaul?

 

I am someone who will ask people who, for example, are Industrial Designers the question: "Why do you you use pre-established conventions to design products? Are you basing your designs on what you have been taught or on your own research?" FACT: I am yet to speak to such a person who can even understand my question! WTF?

 

Copying everyone else is how the modern world works. I am very certain that most "trophy design" is copying everyone else with little to no innovation. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

- Is trophy design overall quite lazy?

 

I would say yes. See above.

 

- Are collectables now such a trope that they should be gotten rid of? (I have multiple games that I could otherwise Platinum relatively easily but I just have "collectable fatigue")

 

The plague of open world games. I would argue collectables at this point are a relic and are such a massive pain in the ass that they should be pretty much abandoned at this point. Thoughts?

 

- What are your favorite Platinums and why? 

 

I would say Metal Gear Solid 5: Phantom Pain - a pretty huge undertaking but otherwise a pretty fun and well thought through Plat.

 

Death Stranding: extremely well designed Plat IMHO.

 

Apart from a couple of brainless trophies, Witcher 3.

 

As much as I hated Rise of the Tomb Raider's Plat on paper, it was probably the most frustrating, yet satisfying Plat I have ever experienced. I was mystified by Shadow of the Tomb Raider's Plat  "design" when I thought the previous game had nailed it. 

 

This is a pretty broad topic, but I think encapsulating it makes sense. Looking forward to your thoughts.

Interesting topic. For those who are confused, By trope, you are meaning something that is overused or in a sense cliched. If I'm understand you correctly, then let me answer your question like this:

 

The only trope I wish would disappear is the need to give every single game a platinum regardless of length. It just feels like every publisher/dev is giving their game a plat no matter what and has really saturated the trophy hunting hobby with TOO many platinums. It'd say most trophy list designs are quite lazy. There's always missed opportunities that could have been done to make you really feel like you've done everything the game has to offer, but are not included in lists.

 

The perfect example of this for me is Dark Cloud. It's one of my favorite games of all time, and the trophy list for it is so meh and doesn't require you to complete the final postgame dungeon. I know, I know, I can still do it without earning a trophy, but it would have been cool to have a trophy to show everyone that I did do it. I don't really care about the rarity of it (which is a little high for a RPG), I just wish I had some way to show everyone that I did everything the game has to offer.  

 

I think trophy list design does need some overhauling. Make a requirement of length for the game so not every single game has a platinum. Furthermore, I think all games should have a trophy for completing the entire story. Not every game has that either. It just doesn't feel right getting to the last section of Undertale and have the platinum pop before fighting the final boss or having the last trophy pop on Sly 2 without giving the last boss the final blow. 

 

Some of my favorite lists would include OKAMI HD, Catherine: Full Body Edition, and Resident Evil 2. The common denominator is that each one requires you to do everything the game has to offer. Sure, Catherine and Resident Evil 2 require multiple playthroughs, but each one brought on a different challenge and made you approach the game differently. They were fun challenges and by the end of playing through them, I really felt like I explored all that the game had to offer.

 

Anyways, I think that covers most of your points. Overall though, I find most lists nowadays pretty bland and wish Sony would do something to the system have some sort of standard for how lists should be... But that'll never happen.

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On 4/22/2021 at 9:12 PM, baboon_overlord said:

Do trophy "tropes" need an overhaul?

 

Not really. Not to be dismissive, but there's only so many types of trophies a game can feature for rewarding players for certain milestones. Even before trophies, games had options to beat games on the hard difficulties of collecting items...the trophies just followed.

 

On 4/23/2021 at 4:09 AM, DrBloodmoney said:

 

I am a fan of hers, and while some of the things she takes aim at are, well, me (as a straight, white, male gamer), I think her work on breaking down game tropes is interesting and important, and makes all the right people angry 1f602.png

 

For starters, I would hardly call her videos "work", especially when her opinions were not even backed up by peer-reviewed literature, evidence or wasn't even able to even to defend her own positions from critics. She found her niche of pissing people off, at the right time and profiting off it for a while...but now that well has dried up. As well, I wouldn't consider her content important...I mean, it's not like she cracked the code on how to make make cheaper solar panels. In fact, I'm not even sure what real impact she's even made in the industry at this point that made games better or more profitable. 

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Anita in my opinion represents everything that is wrong with the Liberals in today's world. Full of her own shit.

 

On 4/23/2021 at 6:34 PM, baboon_overlord said:

What annoys me is lazy trophy design. Take Asssassin's Creed 2 or LA Noire (ironically also a Rockstar game). Build a massive open world and then fill it with collectables that aren't marked on a map. The only way (for me) to get these done without missing anything is to get a map of where everything is, find it, and mark it off on Adobe Fireworks with a rectangle covering the location.

 

LA Noire was more of a Team Bondi game than anything else. Rockstar Games mostly just published it, and stepped in to help with the game when Team Bondi was suffering from financial and work issues. I loved the 1940s era aesthetic, being a crime detective, and seeing the then impressive facial animations. They took the cast of the television show Mad Men and had them play a role in LA Noire.

 

But yes, the collectibles were bad. The film reels were nothing more than to extend the length and time it took you to platinum the game. The trophy Car Fanatic was particularly bad, and considering my love for history, the cars for this time period all look the same! Thanks to a guide on PST.org I was able to finally nab the trophy.

 

The Wanted posters in Mafia 2 were also annoying, and also not marked on the map. The PS4 remasters for both Mafia 2 and LA Noire added additional collectibles. Two games that both had good characters and decent stories plagued by boring collectibles. At least the Playboy magazines in Mafia 2 were nice.

 

On 4/23/2021 at 6:49 PM, Savage_Sarabi said:

I got extremely burnt out playing AC Origins on my old account, and I wasn't even that far into it. I was too intimidated to even progress because I knew how much was going to be needed to get the platinum. Yet someone else may not have even been able to put it down because it was just the best game they've ever played in their entire life. You don't know. This goes for both the game quality and the trophy list quality. Some people love exploring every nook and cranny for shinies that serve no other purpose than to unlock a trophy. I do too for the most part. But it depends on the game.

 

Compared to some games now, AC Origins is at best a medium length open world game. It was when it came out the longest Assassin's Creed game. I couldn't see too many people spending more than 35 - 40 hours to get Assassin's Creed 3 and Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag done. Same with Assassin's Creed Unity, and that had a terrible in-game map with a hideous amount of collectibles. Some of those chests required you to have a level 3 lockpicking skill to open a door, kill some guards, and picklock a chest before you even ticked off a collectible.

 

How I feel with Assassin's Creed Odyssey will determine whether or not I will skip Assassin's Creed Valhalla. I have a limit when it comes to time consuming games. I still think The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt is the best open world game I ever played. A lot of distinct characters in a well crafted world with interesting side quests. Assassin's Creed Origins was a lot of copy and paste, the same style of sidequests that had you killing a few dudes, recover something, then return it to the NPC for a reward. The RPG formula the newer Assassin's Creed games have taken is drifting the series away from what it should be. You're an Assassin, not a Witcher. This isn't Dark Souls. Yet it seems like Assassin's Creed has mostly tossed out stealth in favor of run and gun with a RPG loot system, with spongey enemies.

 

On 5/1/2021 at 6:34 PM, baboon_overlord said:

Yes, I agree that it is kind of stupid to have semi-naked women and clothed men. But I think that has died a death pretty much now though (although I am sure that a lot of Japanese games still do this). I think Anita was WAY behind the curve, generally speaking.

 

I find it distasteful, although I would note, I'm playing Assassin's Creed Brotherhood right now and the "sex scene" at the beginning has Ezio naked and the female with her corset and knickers on, despite them having sex. I'm assuming this is due to the idiotic regulations. You can say "fuck" all day long in a game but if you show a female nipple, then it's 18 rated (Assassin's Creed games are generally rated 15).

 

Why is a man's nipple not a problem and a woman's nipple is somehow "haram" (sorry, lived in Dubai)? 

 

It makes no sense to me.

 

Different cultures take this differently. In the United States we're still mostly run by prudes who cannot see tits and boobs without going up in arms about it. It's all fucked up over here, that's one thing I respect the younger generation for, they don't see that as a problem.

 

On 5/1/2021 at 11:26 PM, Beyondthegrave07 said:

The only trope I wish would disappear is the need to give every single game a platinum regardless of length. It just feels like every publisher/dev is giving their game a plat no matter what and has really saturated the trophy hunting hobby with TOO many platinums. It'd say most trophy list designs are quite lazy. There's always missed opportunities that could have been done to make you really feel like you've done everything the game has to offer, but are not included in lists.

 

The perfect example of this for me is Dark Cloud. It's one of my favorite games of all time, and the trophy list for it is so meh and doesn't require you to complete the final postgame dungeon. I know, I know, I can still do it without earning a trophy, but it would have been cool to have a trophy to show everyone that I did do it. I don't really care about the rarity of it (which is a little high for a RPG), I just wish I had some way to show everyone that I did everything the game has to offer. 

 

I'm fairly vocal when it comes to trash games getting a platinum. When you automatically assign garbage like Breakthrough Gaming Arcade a bunch of golds and a platinum, there is absolutely no quality control at all.

 

Games that were fairly short in length were generally not given a platinum. Some exceptions were Hannah Montana, Trine 2 (PS3 version), Terminator and Magus. I see those now as the 'OG' of easy and shameful platinums, while so many trophy hunters now pad their stats with trash games that have no replay value.

 

I'd put Sound Shapes in that group, but you have to finish the game 1st, which includes those awful Death Mode stages which are entirely RNG based.

 

On 5/1/2021 at 11:26 PM, Beyondthegrave07 said:

Anyways, I think that covers most of your points. Overall though, I find most lists nowadays pretty bland and wish Sony would do something to the system have some sort of standard for how lists should be... But that'll never happen.

 

Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales is a prime example. Absolute cookie cutter list, boring objectives and trophy requirements. It's a good game, don't get me wrong, I just wish there was a little more creativity behind some lists.

 

On 5/2/2021 at 11:58 AM, pathtoninja said:

For starters, I would hardly call her videos "work", especially when her opinions were not even backed up by peer-reviewed literature, evidence or wasn't even able to even to defend her own positions from critics. She found her niche of pissing people off, at the right time and profiting off it for a while...but now that well has dried up. As well, I wouldn't consider her content important...I mean, it's not like she cracked the code on how to make make cheaper solar panels. In fact, I'm not even sure what real impact she's even made in the industry at this point that made games better or more profitable. 

 

I think she deserved what she got. Her "work" was worth as much as a fart bubble as far as I was concerned.

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On 02/05/2021 at 8:26 AM, Beyondthegrave07 said:

Interesting topic. For those who are confused, By trope, you are meaning something that is overused or in a sense cliched. If I'm understand you correctly, then let me answer your question like this:

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I think trope is a better word since it incorporates a lot more than the word cliche does. Plus, it's alliterative in this case. ☺️ 

 

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The only trope I wish would disappear is the need to give every single game a platinum regardless of length. It just feels like every publisher/dev is giving their game a plat no matter what and has really saturated the trophy hunting hobby with TOO many platinums. It'd say most trophy list designs are quite lazy. There's always missed opportunities that could have been done to make you really feel like you've done everything the game has to offer, but are not included in lists.

 

The perfect example of this for me is Dark Cloud. It's one of my favorite games of all time, and the trophy list for it is so meh and doesn't require you to complete the final postgame dungeon. I know, I know, I can still do it without earning a trophy, but it would have been cool to have a trophy to show everyone that I did do it. I don't really care about the rarity of it (which is a little high for a RPG), I just wish I had some way to show everyone that I did everything the game has to offer.  

 

I kind of agree with this and kind of disagree. For example, I think there are a lot of older games on PS that should have had a Plat - I'd take Agatha Christie: ABC Murders as a case in point. AFAIK, that game had enough achievements from Steam (which it was ported from) to make it a game worth having a Plat. But somewhere along the line Sony said no.

 

I think there are a lot of games on PSN that should really have Plats, but they don't, and then at some stage Sony changed the rules. So there are a lot of PS3 games, for example, that don't have a Plat when they really should do, when compared to a lot of the stuff on PS4.

 

Again, AFAIK, Kojima wanted a Plat on MGS5: Ground Zeroes. Again, Sony said no. Although I platted MGS: TPP, that game was a lot easier due to Quiet. MGS:GZ is extremely difficult for me, and if it had a Plat I'd be a lot more interested in completing it (it's a phenomenal looking game to this day BTW).

 

I hear you on games that give Plats without beating the game. I thought Rainswept was a brilliant game, right up my alley, but they gave the Plat ages before the end of the game. Same goes for Undertale, and quite a few more. 

 

I'll check out Dark Cloud - thanks. ☺️ One of the arguments from people who were pro closing the PS3 Store down was that "if we wanted it by now we would have bought it". I'm finding PS3 games I have never heard of before to this day. PS4 is even worse. There's thousands of games on these platforms and it's simply implausible for anyone to have heard of all of them (INB4 Hakoom et al ☺️).

 

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Some of my favorite lists would include OKAMI HD, Catherine: Full Body Edition, and Resident Evil 2. The common denominator is that each one requires you to do everything the game has to offer. Sure, Catherine and Resident Evil 2 require multiple playthroughs, but each one brought on a different challenge and made you approach the game differently. They were fun challenges and by the end of playing through them, I really felt like I explored all that the game had to offer.

 

Thanks for the list. Catherine is definitely on my list. I actually have Okami - my brother bought it on my account. I think I started it ages ago and got stuck.I will definitely consider playing it properly at some point since I have it for free now (if/when I kind find the time, backlog is insane now).

 

Realistically,playing games for the Plat is the entire point of seeing all that a game has to offer. However, I don't mind the trophy whore games too much. I mainly play RPGs and having a quick and easy Plat is not unwelcome. For a start, those sorts of games are perfect for Vita. Secondly, some of them are amazing games. I absolutely loved playing Sagebrush, Sexy Brutale, Full Throttle, etc. Even a game like Iron Snout was somewhat challenging and absolutely hilarious. I don't think a game needs to be a one hundred hour experience to deserve a Plat.

 

It's a bit of a conundrum.

 

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Anyways, I think that covers most of your points. Overall though, I find most lists nowadays pretty bland and wish Sony would do something to the system have some sort of standard for how lists should be... But that'll never happen.

 

The point of this thread really was to examine how we can move trophies forward. They only started in 2007, so they are still a pretty recent innovation compared to the video game industry as a whole. When I started gaming there was no such thing as trophies, let alone the Internet! Even today, Nintendo (inexplicably) doesn't have any trophy equivalent.

 

I think there's a lot more you can do with them, it just needs some out of the box thinking.

 

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On 02/05/2021 at 8:58 PM, pathtoninja said:

Not really. Not to be dismissive, but there's only so many types of trophies a game can feature for rewarding players for certain milestones. Even before trophies, games had options to beat games on the hard difficulties of collecting items...the trophies just followed.

Yes, as we have touched on, I think that trophy design is inherent with game design. However, I think it's possible to make an absolutely amazing trophy list that's truly innovative.

 

Once that happens, a lot of companies will follow suit. But perhaps you need to invent a bonkers game first that's completely revolutionary.  

 

For example, I came up with an idea for a game where there are multiple ways to fight enemies. Some would be sneaky, some would be counter-intuitive and some would just be straight up fight. 

 

But what if a specific NPC companion said they won't engage these enemies? If you decide to fight, that NPC will attack YOU! But if you choose a different approach, that will have repercussions later.

 

So you earn a trophy based on making the non-obvious choice and then finding a solution to the problems that were caused by your choice.

 

There are probably examples of this already, but you could earn the same trophy for choosing and dealing with the consequences of your decision, despite what you chose.

 

I agree it's not easy. But innovation is de facto hard to do.

 

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For starters, I would hardly call her videos "work", especially when her opinions were not even backed up by peer-reviewed literature, evidence or wasn't even able to even to defend her own positions from critics. She found her niche of pissing people off, at the right time and profiting off it for a while...but now that well has dried up. As well, I wouldn't consider her content important...I mean, it's not like she cracked the code on how to make make cheaper solar panels. In fact, I'm not even sure what real impact she's even made in the industry at this point that made games better or more profitable. 

As I said,not a fan. I think she started a Kickstarter to raise $35k to set up a discord server. ☺️

 

But I would rather see complex, interesting female characters that aren't determined by the size of their tits. Tomb Raider 2013 Lara is far more interesting than her previous incarnations - and to me she's a lot hotter and more relatable as a result. She actually reminds me of my ex-girlfriend.

 

So, whilst I don't particularly like Anita, and agree with you in general, I think that games are a lot better as a result - not necessarily because of her actions, I think this was already a trend anyway - but maybe it needed reinforcing. 

 

I put hundreds, if not more than a thousand hours into Uncharted 3 multiplayer, and I mostly played with women. I had a blast. If Chloe and Elena had gigantic breasts and were wearing almost no clothes, I'm not sure it would have been the same experience. But as you say, that predated Anita anyway.   

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LA Noire was more of a Team Bondi game than anything else. Rockstar Games mostly just published it, and stepped in to help with the game when Team Bondi was suffering from financial and work issues. I loved the 1940s era aesthetic, being a crime detective, and seeing the then impressive facial animations. They took the cast of the television show Mad Men and had them play a role in LA Noire.

 

But yes, the collectibles were bad. The film reels were nothing more than to extend the length and time it took you to platinum the game. The trophy Car Fanatic was particularly bad, and considering my love for history, the cars for this time period all look the same! Thanks to a guide on PST.org I was able to finally nab the trophy.

 

The Wanted posters in Mafia 2 were also annoying, and also not marked on the map. The PS4 remasters for both Mafia 2 and LA Noire added additional collectibles. Two games that both had good characters and decent stories plagued by boring collectibles. At least the Playboy magazines in Mafia 2 were nice.

 

 

Hi mate. LA Noire was fantastic. And provides an interesting contrast. The vehicle "collectables" were kind of unusual and interesting. They gave you a reason to try and find/drive every available vehicle, each with their own unique properties.

 

The film reels were just a tacked on gimmick. Unlike, for example, Assassin's Creed 2, where the collectables actually took you to impressive landmarks, that were perfectly recreated, LA Noire took you to some picnic area behind a car park. Hardly worth exploring or seeing.

 

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How I feel with Assassin's Creed Odyssey will determine whether or not I will skip Assassin's Creed Valhalla. I have a limit when it comes to time consuming games. I still think The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt is the best open world game I ever played. A lot of distinct characters in a well crafted world with interesting side quests. Assassin's Creed Origins was a lot of copy and paste, the same style of sidequests that had you killing a few dudes, recover something, then return it to the NPC for a reward. The RPG formula the newer Assassin's Creed games have taken is drifting the series away from what it should be. You're an Assassin, not a Witcher. This isn't Dark Souls. Yet it seems like Assassin's Creed has mostly tossed out stealth in favor of run and gun with a RPG loot system, with spongey enemies.

AC Odyssey. Man, I think that game is amazing. As I was playing it, I kept thinking "is this game as good as I think it is" (eyes box: 92/100 review score)? I mean, it's frigging MASSIVE. If you don't like open world games then this will be a killer. But I had a blast playing it. One of the best features is the photo sharing mode, which marks the map so other people can view and "like" your photos. That social element really gives it another dimension, similar to Death Stranding.

 

Witcher 3 is my favorite game of all time, and if you liked that, you will almost certainly like Odyssey. The sidequests are frustrating at times, since there isn't really any dialogue control when you finish a quest. It's A or B. However I think the combat is SO much better than earlier AC games. I'm playing Brotherhood at the moment and it blows chunks. The combat is a complete shitshow and may be the worst I have ever seen in a AAA game.

 

If you do play Odyssey, please buy the XP booster. I know it's bad to do so, but your experience will be ten times better. I justified it because I have played so many Ubisoft games second-hand now that they haven't had a penny from me. I got Odyssey second-hand and got all the DLC for about £15 in the sale, so I basically got the Gold edition for about £35, including the booster.  

 

I also played as Kassandra, because I felt it might be the best choice. Turns out that's correct canonically. I can't really imagine that evil Kassandra would work.

 

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Assassin's Creed Valhalla

I'm now playing through the series. Just got Revelations second-hand (for just over one pound) to play next on PS3 (was quite delighted to see my copy comes with AC 1 on the disc - why has that not been remastered on PS4?)

 

If you buy the DLC for Odyssey you get remastered AC 3 and Liberation free of charge. So will do those after Revelations.Then I need to play Origins, which I (again) got second-hand plus I bought the DLC on sale.

 

Valhalla looks terrible. I haven't seen a single review from anyone I trust that said it was good. I know some people will disagree but it looks to be a buggy, grindy mess.

 

AFAIK, they have two studios that are rotating. The one that made Valhalla is clearly not the one that is doing good work IMO. I'm going to wait to see what the next game is like.

 

Also, I read with interest the other day that Nolan North was really unhappy with how Desmond panned out. The modern day just seems tacked on and pointless at this point. My least favourite sections of Odyssey were the modern day people - they were annoying and stupid and I just wanted to play the damned game.

 

Ubisoft REALLY needs to address this, otherwise the franchise really doesn't need to exist in its current form.

 

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Trine 2 (PS3 version), Terminator and Magus

I really enjoyed Trine 2 and Magus. Sorry. ☺️

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1 hour ago, baboon_overlord said:

Again, AFAIK, Kojima wanted a Plat on MGS5: Ground Zeroes. Again, Sony said no. Although I platted MGS: TPP, that game was a lot easier due to Quiet. MGS:GZ is extremely difficult for me, and if it had a Plat I'd be a lot more interested in completing it (it's a phenomenal looking game to this day BTW).

 

This was when the old trophy standards were still in place. Nowadays there is no standard. If we got complete garbage like Breakthrough Gaming Arcade to have platinums, games like HITMAN 2 should of gotten a platinum tenfold.

 

1 hour ago, baboon_overlord said:

The point of this thread really was to examine how we can move trophies forward. They only started in 2007, so they are still a pretty recent innovation compared to the video game industry as a whole. When I started gaming there was no such thing as trophies, let alone the Internet! Even today, Nintendo (inexplicably) doesn't have any trophy equivalent.

 

I think there's a lot more you can do with them, it just needs some out of the box thinking.

 

They started in the summer of 2008. Super Stardust HD was the first game to ever get trophies. Uncharted: Drakes Fortune was the first game to get a platinum with it. These games were out an entire year with no trophy support. Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots was for years a game with no trophy list.

 

Xbox Achievements predate Sony Trophies. I remember back in 2006 - 2007 when Xbox Achievements were a big deal for a lot of people. The Xbox 360 was the first fully online integrated console along with a form of social media on it (Xbox Live), the big issue for me was paying monthly subscriptions for Xbox Live Gold, which was required for online multiplayer. The PlayStation 3 had far superior exclusives, but have a really rough start in the early years.

 

1 hour ago, baboon_overlord said:

But I would rather see complex, interesting female characters that aren't determined by the size of their tits. Tomb Raider 2013 Lara is far more interesting than her previous incarnations - and to me she's a lot hotter and more relatable as a result. She actually reminds me of my ex-girlfriend.

 

So, whilst I don't particularly like Anita, and agree with you in general, I think that games are a lot better as a result - not necessarily because of her actions, I think this was already a trend anyway - but maybe it needed reinforcing. 

 

I put hundreds, if not more than a thousand hours into Uncharted 3 multiplayer, and I mostly played with women. I had a blast. If Chloe and Elena had gigantic breasts and were wearing almost no clothes, I'm not sure it would have been the same experience. But as you say, that predated Anita anyway.   

 

Lara Croft was the first popular video game female protagonist. Samus of Metroid fame predates her, but if you were like most kids we had no idea she was female at all, because we were well, kids that didn't know any better.

 

There was a time when video game developers tried to overglorify and over sexualize women in video games. In Duke Nukem 3D they were just sexual objects for Duke, a purely one dimensional character with lots of testosterone and manhood. Even Lara Croft herself was made to sort of appeal specifically to a male audience, in the old games she had revealing legs and arms, with virtually no real story to her. In the reboot Tomb Raider games, Lara Croft is made to look like what an average American, European young woman is portrayed as in today's society. The difference is literally night and day.

 

The video game audience grew up and matured, and as a result women are now portrayed in much more realistic and believable fashions. I'm playing Detroit: Become Human right now and the game treats women just as equally as men. The main story and plot is the struggle of androids (deviants) and humans coexisting in a dystopian world. Personally, I hated Nadine in Uncharted: The Lost Legacy, but Chloe was handled very well. In Uncharted 2, Chloe, while still believable and realistic, was seen as a love interest to Nathan Drake, but ended up losing out to Elena Fisher.

 

Feminists have taken a far greater interest in gaming than they did in the past. In the past you mostly had teenage boys, college kids and socially awkward computer nerds who were all male be your primary audience for video games. Today, you have woman of all types playing video games, celebrities like Lebron James playing video games, even older people who previously never shared an interest in video games. The audience is far more diverse now than it was 20 - 30 years ago.

 

40 minutes ago, baboon_overlord said:

Hi mate. LA Noire was fantastic. And provides an interesting contrast. The vehicle "collectables" were kind of unusual and interesting. They gave you a reason to try and find/drive every available vehicle, each with their own unique properties.

 

The film reels were just a tacked on gimmick. Unlike, for example, Assassin's Creed 2, where the collectables actually took you to impressive landmarks, that were perfectly recreated, LA Noire took you to some picnic area behind a car park. Hardly worth exploring or seeing.

 

I'm not surprised to hear someone from the UK say this. The towns and cities Assassin's Creed 2 touched upon are almost historical monuments. Florence, Venice and Rome predate Los Angeles by hundreds and thousands of years.

 

Most people would probably say the most interesting landmark in Los Angeles is the Tar Pits. If you ask these same people about Rome or Venice, they would probably point out over a dozen landmarks worth seeing. I've been to Los Angeles myself on many occasions. LA Noire did an excellent job recreating that city. Granted, it's a rendition of 1940s era LA, before the skyscrapers and Hollywood Walk of Fame existed. I however despise the Hollywood culture, the high crime rate, the busy traffic, and the arrogant snot nosed mentality Los Angeles has. I have no desire to ever live there and if I were to pick between Los Angeles and San Diego, I'd take San Diego in a heartbeat.

 

Back to Assassin's Creed, this was probably why so many people considered Assassin's Creed 3 boring. You had the Coliseum of Rome, the Gondolas of Venice, the Hagia Sophia in Constantinople in the previous games. In Assassin's Creed 3, you have a dull Frontier, a boring Homestead, and a bunch of colonial era buildings in Boston and New York that all looked the same. Starting with Assassin's Creed Unity the famous and iconic landmarks made a comeback, which was one good thing out of that game. 

 

48 minutes ago, baboon_overlord said:

If you do play Odyssey, please buy the XP booster. I know it's bad to do so, but your experience will be ten times better. I justified it because I have played so many Ubisoft games second-hand now that they haven't had a penny from me. I got Odyssey second-hand and got all the DLC for about £15 in the sale, so I basically got the Gold edition for about £35, including the booster. 

 

I paid a lot for Odyssey and its Season Pass, I can't just skip it. Besides it's the next game in the series I need to play.

 

49 minutes ago, baboon_overlord said:

Valhalla looks terrible. I haven't seen a single review from anyone I trust that said it was good. I know some people will disagree but it looks to be a buggy, grindy mess.

 

AFAIK, they have two studios that are rotating. The one that made Valhalla is clearly not the one that is doing good work IMO. I'm going to wait to see what the next game is like.

 

Yeah I don't know about this one. Everyone tells me this game is time consuming, even moreso than Odyssey. Origins and Odyssey are practically the same in many respects. Both of their interfaces draw many parallels with each other. If you played one of them you should immediately be able to adjust to the other.

 

51 minutes ago, baboon_overlord said:

Also, I read with interest the other day that Nolan North was really unhappy with how Desmond panned out. The modern day just seems tacked on and pointless at this point. My least favourite sections of Odyssey were the modern day people - they were annoying and stupid and I just wanted to play the damned game.

 

Ubisoft REALLY needs to address this, otherwise the franchise really doesn't need to exist in its current form.

 

Still can't get over the death of Desmond Miles in Assassin's Creed 3 eh?

 

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely hate Layla Hassan. She is the perfect example of what I hate about the Millennial generation. Self entitled, arrogant, too full of herself, selfish, etc. Millennials are the 'ME' generation, there have been several studies on why that is and if you don't know about it I definitely suggest reading some books on the subject. It's no wonder Generation Z has such a disliking for Millennials. Anyway, going too far off topic here.

 

I think I preferred the mute, faceless present day protagonist in Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag and Assassin's Creed Rogue. You were a guy helping the Assassin's while you were infiltrating Abstergo, a corporation run and controlled by Templars. But in all honesty, once Ubisoft killed off Lucy Stillman, Warren Vidic and Desmond Miles I lost a lot of interest in the modern day.

 

As a little spoiler alert, Desmond's father makes an appearance in Assassin's Creed Origins. Just why?!? He shouldn't be relevant at all after what he did to Desmond in Assassin's Creed 3. And he's pestering Layla Hassan, whom I guess is the replacement for Desmond Miles.

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On 5/1/2021 at 8:34 PM, baboon_overlord said:

 

I feel you on some games that should have a plat but don't. I always thought Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 should've had plats. If you go after all of the emblems for that game, you deserve a platinum for all that hard work. Haha. But that's what I mean, several games don't need one, others do and Sony has zero way of telling devs when they should or shouldn't have platinums. Really silly tbh.

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12 minutes ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

I feel you on some games that should have a plat but don't. I always thought Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 should've had plats. If you go after all of the emblems for that game, you deserve a platinum for all that hard work. Haha. But that's what I mean, several games don't need one, others do and Sony has zero way of telling devs when they should or shouldn't have platinums. Really silly tbh.

 

Ahh Sonic Adventure. Played a little of it as a kid but never got too far. Got both of these games installed on my PS3, will be playing them in the near future.

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