DLC % logic?

[kikataa]

Why DLC trophies have such an absurd% on the site. The DLC trophy in Batman Arkham Knight cannot be 1.5% in psntrophyleaders and 6% here. In TLOU Survivor, the difficulty cannot be 11% and DLC Grounded the difficulty is 25%. These are some absurdities and so with all games, please someone explain the logic to me?

[Arcesius]

Because the rarities are not computed based on the number of base game owners. 

 

Instead, the number of DLC owners is manipulated. It is computed as the geometric mean between the number of base game owners, and the number of players that have achieved at least a trophy in the DLC. 

 

It often results in NG+ trophies being less rare than NG trophies, for example. 

 

It is a manipulated, misleading, manufactured rarity, but it is what it is. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Arcesius

[kikataa]

20 minutes ago, Arcesius said:

Because the rarities are not computed based on the number of base game owners. 

 

Instead, the number of DLC owners is manipulated. It is computed as the geometric mean between the number of base game owners, and the number of players that have achieved at least a trophy in the DLC. 

 

It often results in NG+ trophies being less rare than NG trophies, for example. 

 

It is a manipulated, misleading, manufactured rarity, but it is what it is. 

 

 

Thanks for the comprehensive answer. I like the system in psntrophyleaders much more. I have 122 UR trophies there, and only 65 UR trophies here.

[BGriff1986]

Both systems have their pros and cons.

 

If you calculate using the number of people who played the base game then you don’t get the issues with things like NG+ DLC. But it means you can effectively ‘buy’ your way to a whole bunch of ultra rare trophies, which somewhat devalues (although the value of trophies is a whole other discussion…)

 

If you only calculate based on the number of people who own the DLC you’re getting a better measure of the % of players who could genuinely earn that trophy. But it can create some really wonky stats if uptake of the DLC is really low

[Arcesius]

5 minutes ago, BGriff1986 said:

If you calculate using the number of people who played the base game then you don’t get the issues with things like NG+ DLC. But it means you can effectively ‘buy’ your way to a whole bunch of ultra rare trophies, which somewhat devalues (although the value of trophies is a whole other discussion…)

 

You would calculate it based on the people that have the DLC list on their profiles. Which is, in my opinion, what should be done. 

 

 

Quote

If you only calculate based on the number of people who own the DLC you’re getting a better measure of the % of players who could genuinely earn that trophy. But it can create some really wonky stats if uptake of the DLC is really low

 

Sure, but that's not what is being done. Why is the geometric mean the number of DLC owners? It's not. It's a made up number that has no meaning. 

 

Also, this is being applied both to paid and free DLC. Everyone owns free DLC if they own the base game. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Arcesius

[FawltyPowers]

Guess it's that time of year again where DLC rarity is discussed for the nth time, the same pro's and con's will be outlined for all 3 methods, there will be some arguing about who feels what is best and then the thread will close.

[Arcesius]

22 minutes ago, FawltyPowers said:

Guess it's that time of year again where DLC rarity is discussed for the nth time, the same pro's and con's will be outlined for all 3 methods, there will be some arguing about who feels what is best and then the thread will close.

 

I mean... If I search for "DLC rarity" as a topic, I get one topic from 2019 and everything else predates 2016. I joined this site after 2017 or so. Obviously there must be more topics that are not found that way, but I don't see this conversation popping up often to be honest. 

 

I don't know, I don't think new users should go necro old topics. But hey, we can also go off-topic and get the thread closed instead of having a good discussion, cause who wants to read opposing opinions, right? 

 

I mean, nothing will change anyways. But by that logic, we should simply delete the feedback section. 

 

 

EDIT: And by the way.. I'm still waiting for anyone to tell me why the current method was chosen. Any supportive evidence that the number of DLC owners is even close to how it is computed? Or were they like "hey look geometric mean, maths.. let's roll with that". 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Arcesius

[DaivRules]

3 minutes ago, Arcesius said:

I don't know, I don't think new users should go necro old topics.

If it’s a continuation of the same discussion then it should go in the same thread. We don’t have rules against necro-ing old threads here, as long as it’s not to post off topic.  

[sepheroithisgod]

I still wish the system was updated to reflect the changes to the DLC system. A good chunk of DLC is free today.

 

When the system was decided most DLC was paid, so it made more sense, but I don't think the system makes sense in 2021 when for free DLC and GOTY editions (Like the Witcher 3 GOTY) where all the DLC is available.

 

Paid DLC should remain the same, but free DLC and DLC included in GOTY editions should not use these calculations IMO.

[coldhardcrash_]

Using the geometric mean method for DLC trophies makes no sense as it is a misrepresentation of what a rarity is supposed to show, which is the percentage of players of that game that have earned that trophy.

 

Considering all DLCs are accounted for in the 100% completion of any game that has them, would it not make more sense that DLC trophies have their rarity calculated against the total number of players to own the base game? Granted, many trophies will fall into the Ultra Rare status, but the rarity would then be doing the job it's meant to be doing, that is showing the correct percentage of total players to have that trophy.

 

For example, let's look at the 1-Upsmanship (Ancient Gods 1) trophy in Doom Eternal's first Ancient Gods DLC. Currently, it's rarity sits at 10.35%.

Doom Eternal has a total registered player base of 48,694 people. Any trophy in the base game with identical rarity would suggest that 5,040 people have earned this trophy. Which is not the case for this trophy, as it only has 1,389 people to have achieved it. So what is this 10.85% rarity meant to represent? What is this a percentage of? 

The absolute accurate rarity would be calculated the same as base game trophies (No. of Achievers/Game Owners x 100), which for this example would bring the rarity down to 2.85%, thus making it an Ultra Rare trophy. Some people may not like it, but that's the only way DLC trophies can be accurately interpreted in terms of pure rarity.

[AJ_Radio]

I tried talking to @Arcesius on that other thread we were on discussing DLC trophy percentages and how I felt the system is better now than it was back in 2016 - 2017. He just shrugged and disagreed with my points by trying to make a philosophy in how the percentages should be dictated.

 

So I'm out. This conversation is completely useless to me at this point. The current system is fine in my opinion.

 

These forums get more and more soft as time goes on.

[Arcesius]

27 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

I tried talking to @Arcesius on that other thread we were on discussing DLC trophy percentages and how I felt the system is better now than it was back in 2016 - 2017. He just shrugged and disagreed with my points by trying to make a philosophy in how the percentages should be dictated.

 

So I'm out. This conversation is completely useless to me at this point. The current system is fine in my opinion.

 

These forums get more and more soft as time goes on.

 

Yeah that's exactly what happened, I tried to make a philosophy ?

 

I'm a mathematician, so naturally I'm interested in these things. I cannot comprehend why the amount of DLC owners is computed the way it is, and so far no one has been able to point me to any supportive evidence suggesting that it is being done correctly. 

 

You think it's fine the way it is? Alright, make your points as to why and we'll discuss. 'It's better than it was in 2016' is not an argument I accept, which has basically been your only point thus far.

 

Also.. how the fuck is discussing something as central to the purpose of this very site as having proper statistics 'making the forums soft'? 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Arcesius

[IDiivil]

I believe the way DLC rarity is calculated is this way purely to have a comparative idea of rarity as an indicator of how rare/elusive/difficult/whatever a trophy is.

 

Base list rarity is calculated based on how many people out of all the people with the trophy list on their profile have achieved the trophy. The issue with this is that it is not that easy to achieve a similar calculation with DLC trophies, as essentially everyone with the base game list also has the DLC list, but the majority of these people don't have actual access to the DLC trophies.

 

Yes, you could argue that it'd be more representative if only lists with a minum of one DLC trophy earned counted as list owners, but that also leads to some really inconsistent values, particularly with smaller DLC lists. It'll also be skewed with lists where every trophy is very difficult, and in this regard the current calculation that compares the main list owners to the DLC owners arguably contains more information as it also gauges barrier of entry as a rarity-affecting factor.

 

You may find the way PSNP handles rarity easier to accept if you think of it as a value that signifies the quality of a trophy rather than a value that signifies any kind of statistically relevant information.

 

At least for me, the way it's currently calculated provides more information than how it previously was. That's mainly because I use rarity to gauge effort it'll take me to achieve a trophy, and even with this rather inefficient calculation, it's a lot more helpful than simply knowing the achieval rates among confirmed DLC owners, seeing as that's a skewed value due to completionists being completionists.

[Cleggworth]

You're right the DLC % IS absurd. The number is pretty meaningless imo. Counting DLC owners only brought up anomalies in certain instances, harder DLC difficulties were more common than easier base game difficulties etc. As far as I can tell the only reason the original method of using all game owners isn't used anymore was to appease the anti-DLC crowd that were angry they were mostly ultra rare.

 

I prefer all game owners because its the most consistent. All other stats use all game owners. Individual game percentages, game ranks, overall completion %, unearned trophies etc 

 

Just counting DLC owners is okay I guess but then just count DLC owners for everything else as well. This was the argument the other week wasn't it? Someone didn't want DLC they didn't have to affect their completion %

 

To me the current system just conjures up a number that doesn't mean anything. The others are based on fact and this half way house of using one system for one stat and another for something else just muddies the water

Edited May 18, 2021 by Cleggworth

[DrBloodmoney]

Counting everyone who owned the base game as a DLC owner pissed the soft-platinum crowd off.

 

Counting only the people who had earned a dlc trophy as an owner pissed the completionist crowd off.

 

 

The rather Judgement of Solomon-esque solution was to come up with a peculiarly calculated formulation that meant nothing, and pissed everyone off. ?

[Guest]

Because thats arbitrary and bullshit, and it will continue to be so. an infallible logic where free games like Rocket League have a fucked up list, like so many others involving free dlcs, see how magnificent and brilliant the percentage of dlcs owners is compared to the base game, all because the user "doesn't have" dlcs only for not winning a specific trophy from it lol?

[djb5f]

31 minutes ago, Cleggworth said:

You're right the DLC % IS absurd. The number is pretty meaningless imo. Counting DLC owners only brought up anomalies in certain instances, harder DLC difficulties were more common than easier base game difficulties etc. As far as I can tell the only reason the original method of using all game owners isn't used anymore was to appease the anti-DLC crowd that were angry they were mostly ultra rare.

 

I prefer all game owners because its the most consistent. All other stats use all game owners. Individual game percentages, game ranks, overall completion %, unearned trophies etc 

 

Just counting DLC owners is okay I guess but then just count DLC owners for everything else as well. This was the argument the other week wasn't it? Someone didn't want DLC they didn't have to affect their completion %

 

To me the current system just conjures up a number that doesn't mean anything. The others are based on fact and this half way house of using one system for one stat and another for something else just muddies the water

There is no way to count DLC owners and hence the entire issue.

 

At one point, it was using DLC owners who have at least one trophy earned but that is a much different count and skewed the statistics.  It skewed very high for games with very difficult DLC packs.  A really hard trophy could show 90% achieved or something silly.

 

I am fine with how it is now.  The formula is admittedly arbitrary but I use it as a guide to seeing how difficult a trophy is and it works in that regard.

 

The only other option is like psntrophyleaders where the DLC owners is the same as base game owners but that isn’t accurate and skews percentages very low, thereby inflating ultra rare trophies.

 

So any of the methods is broken because you have no idea how many people actually have the DLC.

 

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by djb5f

[Guest]

now more seriously, not even psn does the correct calculation, let alone psnp. Sony calculates the rarity of dlcs trophies assuming that all game owners also have dlcs, so ultimately this is an unresolved issue, although it’s fun to talk and theorize about things.

6 minutes ago, djb5f said:

There is no way to count DLC owners and hence the entire issue.

 

At one point, it was using DLC owners who have at least one trophy earned but that is a much different count and skewed the statistics.  It skewed very high for games with very difficult DLC packs.  A really hard trophy could show 90% achieved or something silly.

 

I am fine with how it is now.  The formula is admittedly arbitrary but I use it as a guide to seeing how difficult a trophy is and it works in that regard.

 

The only other option is like psntrophyleaders where the DLC owners is the same as base game owners but that isn’t accurate and skews percentages very low, thereby inflating ultra rare trophies.

 

So any of the methods is broken because you have no idea how many people actually have the DLC.

 

 

Yes, you're right. both sites are arbitrary and inaccurate, because this is an issue that cannot be resolved without official data. and I understand that psnp is more "fair" (?) on this issue, in a way controlling the rarity so as not to make something extremely unbalanced

[sepheroithisgod]

46 minutes ago, IDiivil said:

I believe the way DLC rarity is calculated is this way purely to have a comparative idea of rarity as an indicator of how rare/elusive/difficult/whatever a trophy is.

 

Base list rarity is calculated based on how many people out of all the people with the trophy list on their profile have achieved the trophy. The issue with this is that it is not that easy to achieve a similar calculation with DLC trophies, as essentially everyone with the base game list also has the DLC list, but the majority of these people don't have actual access to the DLC trophies.

 

Yes, you could argue that it'd be more representative if only lists with a minum of one DLC trophy earned counted as list owners, but that also leads to some really inconsistent values, particularly with smaller DLC lists. It'll also be skewed with lists where every trophy is very difficult, and in this regard the current calculation that compares the main list owners to the DLC owners arguably contains more information as it also gauges barrier of entry as a rarity-affecting factor.

 

You may find the way PSNP handles rarity easier to accept if you think of it as a value that signifies the quality of a trophy rather than a value that signifies any kind of statistically relevant information.

 

At least for me, the way it's currently calculated provides more information than how it previously was. That's mainly because I use rarity to gauge effort it'll take me to achieve a trophy, and even with this rather inefficient calculation, it's a lot more helpful than simply knowing the achieval rates among confirmed DLC owners, seeing as that's a skewed value due to completionists being completionists.

But what about free DLC?

 

The system falls apart when everyone has access to DLC. For instance, Days Gone, all of the DLC is free and accessible to everyone. Or if a GOTY version has a separate list like The Witcher 3, it comes with all the DLC, so all game owners have access to it (it's the entire point of buying that version). I could easily name a dozen games that offer free DLC trophies, the system works fine for paid DLC and was a better alternative than what it was in the past, but it's been 5 years now.

 

The landscape of DLC has changed, and it's probably time to reconsider the system.

[B1rvine]

I'm interested in how these discussions would play out today from scratch. Back when the DLC percent debates originally started, I feel like the community attitude wasn't "100% Completion at all costs" which it feels like it is today.

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by B1rvine

[kikataa]

I am glad that such a discussion has started. I will ask those who are annoyed that the topic has been chewed many times to just skip it, I don't understand why they read something that doesn't interest them anymore?

 

I guess none of us live because of the numbers, but it's still a little annoying to have really tough trophies like the ones in the Batman Arkham Knight Community Challenge Pack and just be Verry Rare, those trophies certainly have to be Ultra Rare.

[DrBloodmoney]

11 minutes ago, kikataa said:

I am glad that such a discussion has started. I will ask those who are annoyed that the topic has been chewed many times to just skip it, I don't understand why they read something that doesn't interest them anymore?

 

 

Hear here.

 

fact is - it didn't change the first time until about a thousand different threads had been through the wringer litigating and relitigating the issue - if folks want it changed, and they keep making threads, so be it.

Complaining that you've seen the same arguments time and again isn't really a slight on the arguments - it just means you've been here a long time.

 

 

Also, just to reiterate my two cents :

 

DLC is included in the game's S-Rank on this site, and it is therefore part of the game, and rarity percentages should therefore be based off main game owners on the same site.

 

Just because someone "can't afford" to buy the DLC doesn't mean it shouldn't be considered part of the game. If a trophy list has multiplayer trophies, we don't consider them separately for ownership percentage just because some people might not be able to "afford" internet access.

 

Also

 

Difficulty =/= Rarity ,no matter how much y'all want it to.

 

☮️Out!

Edited May 18, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[BGriff1986]

3 minutes ago, kikataa said:

I guess none of us live because of the numbers, but it's still a little annoying to have really tough trophies like the ones in the Batman Arkham Knight Community Challenge Pack and just be Verry Rare, those trophies certainly have to be Ultra Rare.

“Ultra Rare” doesn’t inherently mean a trophy is hard. It just means very few people have done it. My rarest platinum definitely wasn’t my most difficult, it was just in a game that was niche and fairly grindy

[diskdocx]

56 minutes ago, kevao97 said:

now more seriously, not even psn does the correct calculation, let alone psnp. Sony calculates the rarity of dlcs trophies assuming that all game owners also have dlcs, so ultimately this is an unresolved issue, although it’s fun to talk and theorize about things.

Yes, you're right. both sites are arbitrary and inaccurate, because this is an issue that cannot be resolved without official data. and I understand that psnp is more "fair" (?) on this issue, in a way controlling the rarity so as not to make something extremely unbalanced

I would say PSN does the absolute correct calculation. If you have purchased a game, and that game has DLC trophies added, everyone has access to the DLC (even if they choose not to buy it).

 

Yes, that leads to lots of UR or VR trophies amongst DLC packs, but that's the reality. 100,000 people own a game, only 1000 have earned a particular DLC trophy, so the rarity is 1%. Trying to guess the number of people who own a particular DLC pack based on the number of people with 1 trophy from the DLC, compared to some formula based on the number of base game owners is....well....completely arbitrary.

 

It is a method used to prevent artificial inflation of rarity by arbitrarily deflating the rarity.

 

While there is no perfect solution, the DLC should be calculated based on base game owners.

 

I can't have a trophy removed from my profile because I don't want to do the MP. Same should apply for DLC. If you don't want to play it, fine, but those that do play it shouldn't have the rarities manipulated to prevent rare DLC trophies

[Cleggworth]

1 hour ago, djb5f said:

There is no way to count DLC owners and hence the entire issue.

 

Another reason i prefer base game owners as we know exactly how many people that is.

 

22 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Also, just to reiterate my two cents :

 

DLC is included in the game's S-Rank on this site, and it is therefore part of the game, and rarity percentages should therefor be based off main game owners

 

This is my main issue with it. I don't particular care for chasing UR trophies. I play what I play, I get them if they are in there. Personally I care more about my completion % and keeping my unearned trophies down. Both of those include DLC I don't own though, what is it about DLC trophy rarity that gets this weird work around to keep people happy?

 

Consistency is king in my opinion. The current system is not consistent at all