Ancestral_Spirit

Are some of these times even possible?

26 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Ok so i'm nearly done with the score attack and time attacks for the DLC's, and personally i couldn't care less if i get a decent time or score.

 

But i've gotta know if the people who are at the top of the time attack modes have done these legit and if so how?

 

The top 2 people that i've seen time and time again appear at the top of all the time attack modes are users sadf5522, who appears to have his trophy list hidden. And the other user is Warrior_of_Doom, who has a youtube page showing all his world record speedruns for the other tomb raider games, but not this one and is currently on the leaderboards here on PSNP.

 

The one that really confused me is the DLC pack Slayer's Gauntlet, The Serpent's Heart because most of the run is an on rails type deal, dodging blades on a raft, and i don't see how most of it can be skipped. The gold time for this one is 8mins 30seconds, but the top four people have these times:

sadf5522                   03:13.950

Warrior_of_Doom      03:14.746

SnowWinterDeity       03:36.217

DarkAlucard84           03:51.053

 

Those top 3 people appear in every time attack mode and always at the top, with sadf5522 dominating most of them and never by small amounts of time. So does anyone who likes to do speedruns for these sorts of things know if these times are possible? I was tempted to report them, but i wouldn't wanna end up reporting people if it turns out there's places where you can do massive time skips. I watch a youtuber called Karl Jobst, and understand that for speedruns people really can skip massive corners in a game if they know how to 'abuse' (for lack of a better term) the game in order to get some real crazy times.

 

EDIT: I'm also assuming that Warrior_of_Doom and SnowWinterDeity know each other since Warrior_of_Doom's channel has SnowWinterDeity's name at the top:

 

https://www.youtube.com/c/WarriorofDoom/about

Edited by Ancestral_Spirit
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Frankly, this is why any game with online spreedrun or score attack leaderboards should also have online, in-game re-plays. The only recent-ish game I've played that did that was Retro City Rampage, and it's a shame because it's a great way to discourage cheaters, legitimize amazing runs, and provide tips to people who are struggling to improve their own times/scores.

 

It's a long shot, but maybe if you contacted Warrior_of_Doom directly they'd be willing to tell you how they did it. Speedrunners aren't known for being shy about showing off, especially ones with YouTube channels.

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Posted (edited)

14 minutes ago, Gethron said:

Frankly, this is why any game with online spreedrun or score attack leaderboards should also have online, in-game re-plays. The only recent-ish game I've played that did that was Retro City Rampage, and it's a shame because it's a great way to discourage cheaters, legitimize amazing runs, and provide tips to people who are struggling to improve their own times/scores.

 

It's a long shot, but maybe if you contacted Warrior_of_Doom directly they'd be willing to tell you how they did it. Speedrunners aren't known for being shy about showing off, especially ones with YouTube channels.

 

I like looking at the online replays for games as well. I know quite a lot of racing games have online replays, and the only other game i've seen do it myself was Rayman Legends, but that only showed people that were close to your time bracket, never the people at the top, and some of their times were insane for those daily runs, and it was always the usual suspects at the top.

 

Like i said, i'm loathed to report them in case i come off as being an ass and it turns out that there is indeed a way to do it, it's just a crazy method that most wouldn't think of doing  :/

 

The quickest time i saw anyone else do that level in particular on youtube was around the 7 minute mark, which is a far cry from the top 4 people on that leaderboard, never mind the next 30 or so lol.

 

I'll send him a message and just ask how he did it then.

 

EDIT: Doesn't look like i can, he doesn't have a forum account.

Edited by Ancestral_Spirit
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1 minute ago, Helyx said:

 

I guess i could message them, but if they've not been on since 2013, do you think they'd even message back at this point?

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Just now, Ancestral_Spirit said:

I guess i could message them

 

Tagging them just in case. Seems they're a couple, so contacting one is as good as contacting the other.

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Just now, Helyx said:

 

Tagging them just in case. Seems they're a couple, so contacting one is as good as contacting the other.

 

Well i just messaged Warrior_of_Doom on PSN since he hadn't privated his account like sadf5522 did.

 

I don't even wanna go for these sorts of times, i'm just genuinely curious as to how these times are possible.

Like i said, i've seen some speedrunners do some crazy shit in games, running through walls, using invincibility frames, knowing the code of the game well enough to break them in spectacular ways.

Something like the things i've just mentioned seem to be the ONLY way that those sorta times could be achievable, but there are no videos of anyone coming close to those sorta times.

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I will never be a speedrunner, it invokes too much stress and the amount of time spent to even shave off a split second is literally insane. I tip my hat to those speedrunners with crazy talent who can pull these records off without resorting to cheating.

 

You mentioned Rayman Legends which is a game I will be playing in the near future. If people like these guys can set off crazy speedruns in Shadow of the Tomb Raider, there's little to no chance I will be able to obtain those Diamond Cups in the daily challenges in Rayman. Too many crazy talented gamers out there, who aren't necessarily trophy hunters.

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5 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

I will never be a speedrunner, it invokes too much stress and the amount of time spent to even shave off a split second is literally insane. I tip my hat to those speedrunners with crazy talent who can pull these records off without resorting to cheating.

 

You mentioned Rayman Legends which is a game I will be playing in the near future. If people like these guys can set off crazy speedruns in Shadow of the Tomb Raider, there's little to no chance I will be able to obtain those Diamond Cups in the daily challenges in Rayman. Too many crazy talented gamers out there, who aren't necessarily trophy hunters.

 

I couldn't be a speedrunner either for pretty much those exact reasons. I'm also not the sort of person to dedicate my life to playing just 1 game. You hear about people playing the same game for 10-20 years and playing nothing else, and i just couldn't do it.

 

I think i got a diamond cup once, but i was hella lucky and have no idea how i even did it. I remember it was one of the falling challenges and i must have hit a wall at a certain angle, and it boosted my plummeting speed to a stupid degree, so i'm guessing the people at the top have mastered things like that and have got it down to a science. It is entirely possible to go for gold cups as well, i remember getting a few of those, but that was due to pig headedness and re-playing the same daily level over and over and over again.

I loved that game, but that online could go suck a fat one!

 

This guy, Warrior_of_Doom says he is a trophy hunter as well and wants a near perfect trophy list. I can't imagine being a speedrunner and trophy hunter to boot. I suppose certain games that would go hand in hand with the two, but trying to be perfect in both? I'm not perfect in any 1 thing, let alone 2  xD 

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Well i got a response from Warrior_of_Doom:

 

'Hi! I got all my times on Shadow of the Tomb Raider through lots of practice. It's all about finding the fastest route and do great movements, timing your jumps etc. Also i got a lot of experience from Rise of the Tomb Raider.'

 

Ah, the vaguest of vagueries approach.

So i've responded with:

 

'I understand that, but i don't get how you'd knock 4+mins off the quickest time on yt on an on rails level, where it's impossible to leave the raft? I also don't get why you wouldn't upload those times to yt when you uploaded all your other TR ones  xD

 

As you can probs see from my own times, i'm not a speedrunner myself. But even if you were able to run straight through the level, with no water to stop you, and climb to the top of the tower with 0 obstacles, 3mins would still be pushing it.

 

What i'm saying is, without glitches in game, or abusing problems in SotTR coding, i don't see how that time is possible  >.<'

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They probably use glitches or whatever. But honestly, who fuckin' care.

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19 minutes ago, LastRideII said:

They probably use glitches or whatever. But honestly, who fuckin' care.

The guy above you seems to care 🤷‍♂️

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1 hour ago, Ancestral_Spirit said:

Ah, the vaguest of vagueries approach.

So i've responded with:

 

'I understand that, but i don't get how you'd knock 4+mins off the quickest time on yt on an on rails level, where it's impossible to leave the raft? I also don't get why you wouldn't upload those times to yt when you uploaded all your other TR ones  xD

If you’re taking that kind of approach to your questions I’m not surprised if you’re getting vague responses. Feels waaaaaay more like an “I think you cheated and I’m trying to drag the evidence out of you” message than a “Hey, I’m genuinely curious as to how the game mechanics allow for stuff like this”

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19 hours ago, Gethron said:

Frankly, this is why any game with online spreedrun or score attack leaderboards should also have online, in-game re-plays. The only recent-ish game I've played that did that was Retro City Rampage, and it's a shame because it's a great way to discourage cheaters, legitimize amazing runs, and provide tips to people who are struggling to improve their own times/scores.

On a slightly unrelated note, i did find out recently that in game replays ought to be taken with a grain of salt as well.

 

Track-mania has a huge speedrunning community, and it turns out that around 7000 people had cheated on their speedruns, but all used the in-game replays to 'prove' that they weren't cheating. Eventually they had to admit they cheated, including quite a few of those people who were until recently world record holders.

 

I get that people probably won't wanna watch the video, but i'll give you the skinny.

A programmer caught them cheating through the in game replays. Games that have in game replays, usually just take the position of the player, rather than fully recording the inputs the player made during the playthrough. Track-mania however also includes their inputs. As it turns out, after watching the inputs instead of the actual race, around 7000 people had used something that slowed down the speed of the game to a stupid degree. So when you watch the controller inputs after putting the game to normal speed, the controller inputs are so fast that it would be physically impossible for a human being to do these sorts of inputs.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

13 minutes ago, BGriff1986 said:

If you’re taking that kind of approach to your questions I’m not surprised if you’re getting vague responses. Feels waaaaaay more like an “I think you cheated and I’m trying to drag the evidence out of you” message than a “Hey, I’m genuinely curious as to how the game mechanics allow for stuff like this”

 

I even told him that i'm not a speedrunner myself, and i'm not, my times on SofTR will attest to that. I even told him this.

I really do find it odd though that someone would brag about having world records and the like on other tomb raider games, yet this one, while he has literally earned 1st to 3rd place in ALL of the time attacks on the DLC, which would be considered world records, why you wouldn't wanna show off how it was possible.

 

I've tried messaging other people who also have times that are close to his, but their accounts are either private, they're not responding, and i can't find out if they have a yt channel or the like to see the run.

 

I enjoy watching people do speedruns, i enjoy watching how people can push the boundaries of a game in order to achieve these sorts of times. But i can't see the runs since SotTR has no in game replay, and no one has uploaded a run even close to what the top 4 or so people have achieved. Like i said, the closest i could find on yt was around the 7min mark, which is entirely possible. But i really would love to know how someone can shave 4mins off an on rails level. There's gotta be some way you can break the game in order to allow for this.

 

As i said earlier, if you were allowed to play that level as the crow flies, running at Lara's top speed without any water or platforms from one end to the other, and climb the tower at the end without any obstacles i still think 3mins would be pushing it. So what i wanna know is, HOW is that time possible?

 

I get that it would entirely be possible to shoot the switches at earlier times, to allow the platform the carry on its course without ever stopping, and maybe there's some way to shoot the switches on the tower earlier so you can skip a load of the dodging the spinning blades and fire. But even with all that, at the beginning you can't leave the raft for lengthy periods of time. The game literally won't allow it, because piranhas eat you. Even in the tower room, the game kills you if you stay in the water for too long.

 

EDIT: It's not like even if it turns out he did cheat those time, that i could report him on here anyway. As he could just say, well i did get those trophies but i did them on earlier runs where i was getting bronze, silver, or even just slower times than my records. And no one could prove otherwise.

Like i said, i just wanna know how it's possible.

 

Looking at other levels, i can defo see how it would be possible to shave off massive amount of times by possibly swinging to places, or jumping to places you really shouldn't be in in order to shave off tons of time. Segments in plenty of other levels i can well see how you would be able to skip them, i'm just no where near good enough to do it  xD 

Edited by Ancestral_Spirit
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My question is, suppose you're right, where would you report them, and with what reasoning? This site doesn't police in-game leaderboards (most of the time). Whatever method they used to achieve the current in-game times, you can't prove they didn't get the trophy before they did whatever they did. So then for all intents and purposes the trophy pop is legitimate, and whatever they did after is of no consequence.

 

You'd have to find impossible order or time between trophies to make a report.

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Posted (edited)

1 minute ago, NamoPh said:

My question is, suppose you're right, where would you report them, and with what reasoning? This site doesn't police in-game leaderboards (most of the time). Whatever method they used to achieve the current in-game times, you can't prove they didn't get the trophy before they did whatever they did. So then for all intents and purposes the trophy pop is legitimate, and whatever they did after is of no consequence.

 

You'd have to find impossible order or time between trophies to make a report.

I actually edited my post to include this  xD 

Sorry i got to it a little late

 

Doesn't mean i wanna know how he did it any less

Edited by Ancestral_Spirit
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Oh, I didn’t mean to infer that you’re not genuinely curious. But some of the way you’ve phrased things, both here and in those PSN messages, would likely have put the player on edge

 

For example…

 

Like i said, i'm loathed to report them in case i come off as being an ass and it turns out that there is indeed a way to do it, it's just a crazy method that most wouldn't think of doing  :/”

 

And the entirety of the message you posted earlier…

 

“I understand that, but i don't get how you'd knock 4+mins off the quickest time on yt on an on rails level, where it's impossible to leave the raft? I also don't get why you wouldn't upload those times to yt when you uploaded all your other TR ones”

 

They (perhaps inadvertently) come across as the tone of somebody who is assuming cheating, as opposed to somebody who just wants to learn about speed running. If I was a speed runner and saw somebody making comments like that about me, I’d be giving them pretty vague messages too

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1 minute ago, BGriff1986 said:

Oh, I didn’t mean to infer that you’re not genuinely curious. But some of the way you’ve phrased things, both here and in those PSN messages, would likely have put the player on edge

 

For example…

 

Like i said, i'm loathed to report them in case i come off as being an ass and it turns out that there is indeed a way to do it, it's just a crazy method that most wouldn't think of doing  :/”

 

And the entirety of the message you posted earlier…

 

“I understand that, but i don't get how you'd knock 4+mins off the quickest time on yt on an on rails level, where it's impossible to leave the raft? I also don't get why you wouldn't upload those times to yt when you uploaded all your other TR ones”

 

They (perhaps inadvertently) come across as the tone of somebody who is assuming cheating, as opposed to somebody who just wants to learn about speed running. If I was a speed runner and saw somebody making comments like that about me, I’d be giving them pretty vague messages too

 

Ah i see what you mean  >.<

 

Well, if it does turn out that he or anyone else that's on that top time attack leaderboard is reading, i really am just genuinely curious to know how it's possible, mostly just on that level in particular. I can't wrap my brain around how it's been done so fast!

 

I know a lot of speedrunners don't like to post their tactics, because then it gives other people the means to beat those time and i wouldn't wanna expose those tactics per se, i just wanna know personally how it was done. Even if they just told me 'there's a way to break this particular section' or something to that affect i'd just leave it at that. Like i said, i've watched countless people do bat shit insane things on speedruns, i mean, just the other day i found out people were breaking world records on a Spongebob game by deliberately smearing their own sweat and fingerprints on the discs  xD 

 

The problem is by not posting your runs, and going through levels like this in the times that they have, just seem impossible to me without cheating or breaking the game in some way. Even if someone (or even me) were to do a completely perfect run on that level, never stumbling, never stopping, and landing every shot on every switch perfectly, while timing all my jumps to a literally perfect degree, i still wouldn't get anywhere near close to 3mins.

 

I wouldn't ever wanna accuse someone of cheating without having concrete evidence to prove as such. Innocent until proven guilty. So there's no way in hell i could ever prove without a shadow of a doubt that someone with that time cheated it, and that's fine in my book. I just wanna know how they did it  :) 

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3 hours ago, Ancestral_Spirit said:

On a slightly unrelated note, i did find out recently that in game replays ought to be taken with a grain of salt as well.

 

Track-mania has a huge speedrunning community, and it turns out that around 7000 people had cheated on their speedruns, but all used the in-game replays to 'prove' that they weren't cheating. Eventually they had to admit they cheated, including quite a few of those people who were until recently world record holders.

 

I get that people probably won't wanna watch the video, but i'll give you the skinny.

A programmer caught them cheating through the in game replays. Games that have in game replays, usually just take the position of the player, rather than fully recording the inputs the player made during the playthrough. Track-mania however also includes their inputs. As it turns out, after watching the inputs instead of the actual race, around 7000 people had used something that slowed down the speed of the game to a stupid degree. So when you watch the controller inputs after putting the game to normal speed, the controller inputs are so fast that it would be physically impossible for a human being to do these sorts of inputs.

 

That's not so much an argument against in-game replays as it is an argument for better in-game replays, but I get the point you're making. 

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3 hours ago, Ancestral_Spirit said:

I actually edited my post to include this  xD 

Sorry i got to it a little late

 

Doesn't mean i wanna know how he did it any less

 

Ah well, I don't have much else to add, since the trophies only require you get a bronze medal. I initially saw the title on the frontpage and came into the topic to defend my #1 fastest 100%, cause that's what this kind of threads are usually referring to. :P

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47 minutes ago, NamoPh said:

 

Ah well, I don't have much else to add, since the trophies only require you get a bronze medal. I initially saw the title on the frontpage and came into the topic to defend my #1 fastest 100%, cause that's what this kind of threads are usually referring to. :P

 

Wait, but i just looked through your trophy list for SotTR and it says you've not got plat or done any of the time attacks, have you just not synced them yet or are you talking about a different tomb raider? Sorry i'm so confused  >.< 

58 minutes ago, Gethron said:

 

That's not so much an argument against in-game replays as it is an argument for better in-game replays, but I get the point you're making. 

Oh no, i simply meant that depending on how the replays are recorded, you may not be able to believe everything you see. I'm definitely not against in game replays as such.

But yes, better in game replays would be more welcome, but i'm not sure how anyone would be able to do that sort of thing for console.

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Warrior responded to me again and says that he hates hacks, glitches or anything like that used in speedruns.

 

Oh god now i REALLY wanna see that run, i still can't wrap my head around how 3 minutes is possible, and now i especially can't imagine it WITHOUT abusing the game!

 

Said he got put off speedrunning and stuff because of people cheating in score attack on RotTR, which is really sad given that he does all his runs without glitches or abusing the game code and STILL manages to get crazy times and scores  :( 

I'll be keeping an eye on his yt channel for those runs though, i've just gotta see it being done!  :D 

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1 hour ago, Ancestral_Spirit said:

 

Wait, but i just looked through your trophy list for SotTR and it says you've not got plat or done any of the time attacks, have you just not synced them yet or are you talking about a different tomb raider? Sorry i'm so confused  >.<

 

I started posting on these forums with an alt account, and then just kept it. Not hard to figure out which my main is based on what's been said. :P

 

28 minutes ago, Ancestral_Spirit said:

Warrior responded to me again and says that he hates hacks, glitches or anything like that used in speedruns.

 

Oh god now i REALLY wanna see that run, i still can't wrap my head around how 3 minutes is possible, and now i especially can't imagine it WITHOUT abusing the game!

 

Said he got put off speedrunning and stuff because of people cheating in score attack on RotTR, which is really sad given that he does all his runs without glitches or abusing the game code and STILL manages to get crazy times and scores  :( 

I'll be keeping an eye on his yt channel for those runs though, i've just gotta see it being done!  :D 

 

While there's nothing wrong with using glitches, I'll admit that the glitchless claim here is dubious at best.

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On 6/4/2021 at 1:14 PM, NamoPh said:

 

I started posting on these forums with an alt account, and then just kept it. Not hard to figure out which my main is based on what's been said. :P

 

While there's nothing wrong with using glitches, I'll admit that the glitchless claim here is dubious at best.

Ah, i had a feeling but i didn't wanna assume. So you have the fastest completion time for SotTR?

Again i don't wanna end up outing someone's strats for speedrunning, since i know that it can be a bit of a no no in the speedrunning community, but did you bug the game out or use glitches for your time?

 

Also do you hold any of the quickest times in the time attacks, and did you use bugs and glitches for those?

Like i said, i see some mad times on this site and even looking at your time for Metal Gear Solid 4 seems crazy to me, especially with the whole 35 hours for the chicken emblem and 30 hours generally playing the game, seems like it would require a helluva lot of planning and i'm starting to see why you'd need a secondary account to test this kinda thing so you don't mess up your main account.

 

Granted though, speedrunning trophies and speedrunning in and of itself can be a little different. Obviously you can minimise your time spent on getting trophies with careful planning so that you pop your first and last trophies in the shortest amount of time, as opposed to running through a game asap. But you obviously have to have some pretty decent skill at the game in order to get the fastest plat. I understand that you might not wanna give it a go but, do you think you could get 3mins or so on that time trial and show us how it's done?

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