Amazing Game, Crappy Trophy List

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

Just now, AJ_Radio said:

 

I'm sure you're aware, but for those who aren't, we're referring to Breakthrough Gaming Arcade and shameless trophy whore games that offer no real value, neither in gameplay nor in trophy lists.

 

Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart is still a high quality game through and through, but it received a less than adequate trophy list.

Right, yes, I could have been clearer in my statement. This game is not, as AJ says here, the kind of game I'm saying Sony should not put out. Its list aside I'm sure it's a blast. The kinds of games I'm referring to and that AJ lists some of, those are pretty clear just looking at the game avatars a lot of the time

[Paladin-TX]

On 6/16/2021 at 11:09 AM, LukeTheGooner said:

do they have the hoverboard races like in ratchet and clank on the ps4? I hated those trophies

 

I didn't see this answered. Sorry if I missed it but no they don't have a race in this one. I always hated those too.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Paladin-TX

[PhantomFear94]

On 16/06/2021 at 4:31 PM, bosstristan said:

Am I the only one who's completely disappointed by the trophy list?

 

Don't get me wrong, the game is truly amazing, and that what matters the most.

 

But when it comes to the trophy list, it's really... not there. You don't even need to finish the game in this or that difficulty

 

This thread has over 100 comments, but if it wasn't mentioned before, PowerPyx has stated before on a few roadmaps its a PlayStation Studios policy to NOT have difficulty trophies in the Platinum anymore and if you look, it checks out - there hasn't been a game since before God of War (April 2018) that has in my books, perhaps even earlier than that. It's why there are so many NG+ patches for PS exclusives, and why so many are incredibly easy to platinum but have tougher DLC patches. 

 

My two cents is that I think Ratchet & Clank has a decent, creative-ish trophy list - its just very easy. Honestly, I would be more surprised if R&C had a super tough platinum, it would feel odd given the game. I personally like miscellaneous trophies (my favourite type, easter eggs or random fun things rather than 'pure completion') and there are a few of those, which I find fun. I don't think there are so FEW collectible trophies that its a huge problem - you still need all of some collectibles, and there is incentive to get others aside from trophies (e.g. armour/cosmetics).  It's not perfect, but it isn't cookie cutter or terrible either. 

 

Finally, I am all but certain a NG+ patch will drop at some point requiring you to play on the hardest difficulty. Insomniac did NG+ with both recent Spiderman games, Miles Morales was even in the base list, and PS Studios do it all the time. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by PhantomFear94

[Voland44]

13 minutes ago, PhantomFear94 said:

its a PlayStation Studios policy to NOT have difficulty trophies in the Platinum anymore 

 

this should be locked somewhere, so everyone see that. such plats in exclusive games is common thing now.

[PhantomFear94]

Just now, Voland44 said:

 

this should be locked somewhere, so everyone see that. such plats in exclusive games is common thing now.

 

Some games are hard by design (Demon's Souls, Returnal, etc.) but otherwise yes I agree.

[PhantomFear94]

2 hours ago, Voland44 said:

 

this should be locked somewhere, so everyone see that. such plats in exclusive games is common thing now.

 

This is the quote from PowerPyx, knew I saw it somewhere, was in the comments section of his Ghost of Tsushima list reveal.

 

"Since God of War (2018) they no longer have any difficulty related trophies in Sony games. One of Sony’s internal policies they’ve had for years, none of their games included any difficulty trophies since then in the main list (only as DLC trophies that were patched in later, for example in Days Gone). Sony no longer allows their first-party devs to put in difficulty-related trophies. From what I heard they made this change in order to “boost sales” as their analysts think hard trophies turn off some trophy hunters from purchasing a game. All Sony games are now easy peasy."

 

https://www.powerpyx.com/ghost-of-tsushima-trophy-list-revealed/

[bosstristan]

5 hours ago, PhantomFear94 said:

 

This is the quote from PowerPyx, knew I saw it somewhere, was in the comments section of his Ghost of Tsushima list reveal.

 

"Since God of War (2018) they no longer have any difficulty related trophies in Sony games. One of Sony’s internal policies they’ve had for years, none of their games included any difficulty trophies since then in the main list (only as DLC trophies that were patched in later, for example in Days Gone). Sony no longer allows their first-party devs to put in difficulty-related trophies. From what I heard they made this change in order to “boost sales” as their analysts think hard trophies turn off some trophy hunters from purchasing a game. All Sony games are now easy peasy."

 

https://www.powerpyx.com/ghost-of-tsushima-trophy-list-revealed/

That's sad as f*ck.

 

Like I get it, don't make a game too "hard", but come on, these games are not hard by design, and in addition to this, they now only require you to finish the game at not even 50% ? That's pretty sad.

 

Business is business I suppose. Remember when trophies were a hobby?

[sepheroithisgod]

5 hours ago, PhantomFear94 said:

 

This is the quote from PowerPyx, knew I saw it somewhere, was in the comments section of his Ghost of Tsushima list reveal.

 

"Since God of War (2018) they no longer have any difficulty related trophies in Sony games. One of Sony’s internal policies they’ve had for years, none of their games included any difficulty trophies since then in the main list (only as DLC trophies that were patched in later, for example in Days Gone). Sony no longer allows their first-party devs to put in difficulty-related trophies. From what I heard they made this change in order to “boost sales” as their analysts think hard trophies turn off some trophy hunters from purchasing a game. All Sony games are now easy peasy."

 

https://www.powerpyx.com/ghost-of-tsushima-trophy-list-revealed/

A great quote to share the next time someone says the trophy hunter community is too small to affect sales.

[Kal-El457]

I just wanted to post again on this thread as I played the game and platinumed it. I chose to do everything that wasn't needed. I got all armor pieces/gold bolts etc and did all the stages in every challenge cup whilst playing on the 4th difficulty. 

 

I tried my best to add value to my experience as the game is fun and story is pretty good. I liked the Rivet and KT characters but my god even doing that, my ps5 tracker says 17hrs played and I was afk for 2-3hrs whilst on the game because I was doing something else. I would be amazed if this game sold 1M copies in 60 days. 

 

P.S I got the game at $35 on a split with my friend. 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Kal-El457

[Cherrywood]

On 6/16/2021 at 11:31 AM, bosstristan said:

Am I the only one who's completely disappointed by the trophy list?

 

Don't get me wrong, the game is truly amazing, and that what matters the most.

 

But when it comes to the trophy list, it's really... not there. You don't even need to finish the game in this or that difficulty, collect all spy bots, all orbs, all gold bolts (wtf), beat challenge mode, beat all the arena challenges, upgrade all weapons... It is a real shame, you can basically get the plat' with no effort whatsoever, leaving the game to not even 50%... I don't mean trophies should be excruciatingly hard, but just enough so it feels like you actually achieved something, you completed the game to 100% (especially when it's such a short game like this one, for games like Just Cause 2, 75% required is enough imo).

Plus, collectible are sh*t easy to find AND displayed on the map, what is this, Assassin's Creed?

 

Anyway, I've completed the game 100% (without activating the preorder DLC which seems to be quite game breaking btw)  and I'm now playing challenge mode in the highest difficulty. I find it really sad they wanted to make is so 'accessible', a platinum should not be too accessible, that's the point of a reward/trophy/achievement.

 

 

Completely agree.  Exact same thing that I thought when they first released the trophy list.  I'm all for games being more accessible, variable difficulty settings, that's great.  But unless a game is designed that way, say, eg. Telltale games, you shouldn't get the Platinum trophy just for playing through the game.  It's supposed to be an achievement.

[Breakingthegreen]

1 hour ago, Cherrywood said:

 

 

Completely agree.  Exact same thing that I thought when they first released the trophy list.  I'm all for games being more accessible, variable difficulty settings, that's great.  But unless a game is designed that way, say, eg. Telltale games, you shouldn't get the Platinum trophy just for playing through the game.  It's supposed to be an achievement.

But in a Telltale game, that game is supposed to encourage freedom of choice, a trophy for say..."Get all characters to join you in the final episode" in the Walking Dead would be counter to the aim of "the game being tailored to the way you play it", if a trophy list actively changes how you play in those kinds of games, I would say that it makes those games worse.

[DrBloodmoney]

1 hour ago, Cherrywood said:

you shouldn't get the Platinum trophy just for playing through the game.  It's supposed to be an achievement.

Before trophies came along, playing through the game was the achievement.

 

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

9 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Before trophies came along, playing through the game was the achievement.

 

Yeah but that's not what this is a hobby site for, just playing the game. I understand your point but the game isn't any less for a bs list; just the hobby that we're all here for

[DrBloodmoney]

2 minutes ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

Yeah but that's not what this is a hobby site for, just playing the game. I understand your point but the game isn't any less for a bs list; just the hobby that we're all here for

no, perhaps not.

 

What the hobby is less for, though, is the hypocrisy of those complaining about an easy trophy list being attached to the latest entry in a franchise that has always been aimed at a younger audience and has never trafficked in ‘challenge’ as a selling point.

 

The idea that the hobby itself is somehow being diminished because the tiny handful of Sony first party games that come out each year are not particularly difficult platinums is completely ridiculous.

These are the big, tentpole games, designed for everyone to play and enjoy - and sport a trophy list to match.
There are games out there for everyone.

Ones with rock hard challenges, ones with easy ‘gimmes’, and everything in between - and they are all available to everyone. 

 

It’s staggering to me to see how many people who are complaining about the lack of challenge Ratchet offers don’t have Returnal on their profiles.

Why?

That is also a brand new game, a PS5 exclusive, and from what I hear, offers exactly the challenge they claim they are so suffering as a result of Ratchet lacking.

 

Demon’s Souls too - it’s whole thing is it’s difficulty - where is it on the complainers lists? I see it on some, but certainly not all.

 

Of course I get that not every genre is everyone’s cup of tea, but surely if ‘challenge’ is such a big part of what makes a game for them - to the extent of not only denouncing a demonstrably good game like Ratchet for lacking it - and in some cases going further, and using it as a catalyst for bemoaning the ‘downfall’ of the entire trophy hunting hobby to a quagmire of ‘EZpZ’ gaming - then surely the bigest ‘challenging’ games available on their shiny new console should be priority no.1?

 

I get deriding Breakthrough Gaming Arcade.

 

I even get bemoaning Ratalaika- I think their trophy policy sucks, even if I do like some of the games.

 

I don’t get complaining that a well made, family friendly, all-ages inclusive game like Ratchet - a game in a franchise always set at a very mild level of difficulty - is somehow lesser as a result of having a trophy list that follows suit.

[ShadeSplit]

7 hours ago, sepheroithisgod said:

A great quote to share the next time someone says the trophy hunter community is too small to affect sales.

 

I thought the same. I still see quite a few people label trophies as "meaningless". And some of them even claim to be trophy hunters.

Edited June 22, 2021 by ShadeSplit

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

@DrBloodmoney I'll just honestly respond by saying that I seriously think the most critical response has been that the list wasn't even as deep as the other R&C lists. I don't think people here were expecting difficulty out of nowhere but I've seen many criticisms and arguments for why the list does take away from the hobby that aren't really... What you said. I think you might be missing just a bit of what the complaints here are. The OP's first post speaks to it and a lot of people were with him

[AJ_Radio]

23 hours ago, PhantomFear94 said:

 

This thread has over 100 comments, but if it wasn't mentioned before, PowerPyx has stated before on a few roadmaps its a PlayStation Studios policy to NOT have difficulty trophies in the Platinum anymore and if you look, it checks out - there hasn't been a game since before God of War (April 2018) that has in my books, perhaps even earlier than that. It's why there are so many NG+ patches for PS exclusives, and why so many are incredibly easy to platinum but have tougher DLC patches. 

 

My two cents is that I think Ratchet & Clank has a decent, creative-ish trophy list - its just very easy. Honestly, I would be more surprised if R&C had a super tough platinum, it would feel odd given the game. I personally like miscellaneous trophies (my favourite type, easter eggs or random fun things rather than 'pure completion') and there are a few of those, which I find fun. I don't think there are so FEW collectible trophies that its a huge problem - you still need all of some collectibles, and there is incentive to get others aside from trophies (e.g. armour/cosmetics).  It's not perfect, but it isn't cookie cutter or terrible either. 

 

Finally, I am all but certain a NG+ patch will drop at some point requiring you to play on the hardest difficulty. Insomniac did NG+ with both recent Spiderman games, Miles Morales was even in the base list, and PS Studios do it all the time. 

I agree with everything you’re saying, but I also think this is a product of the times we live in.
 

Everybody is looking for the easy way out. Nobody wants to spend time grinding or having to put in the practice to get better on higher difficulties. I’ve been playing Nex Machina that was developed by Housemarque in 2017. Bought it in a recent sale and I have to say if this was piss easy, I wouldn’t have near the excitement I’m currently having with it. 
 

The game is challenging and yes, I’m sure a good majority of people out there probably aren’t skilled enough to get the platinum. But the reason some of us go for games like Nex Machina is because they give us a good challenge and it feels good to overcome it. 
 

Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart doesn’t have you doing anything near what you can do entirely as a whole. The collectibles were always fun for me in Ratchet & Clank games and to not even collect all the Gold Bolts is just a disappointment.

 

Don’t get me wrong, this is still a high quality game that I’m sure I’ll have fun with. But they’re making trophy lists to the point where they’re practically participation awards. So that any no hand with no skill that is too lazy to go after anything that has a slight challenge can earn the platinum. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by AJ_Radio

[The_Mighty_Ducks]

18 hours ago, PhantomFear94 said:

From what I heard they made this change in order to “boost sales” as their analysts think hard trophies turn off some trophy hunters from purchasing a game. All Sony games are now easy peasy."

The analyst are correct. It will boost sales and make more people play the game and be a fan of the game. 

 

Having difficult and online trophies in my opinion has tarnished the way we play video games. Even before achievements and trophies everyone was trying out different games without worrying if they can complete the achievement/trophy list. Everyone just wanted to have fun and there were people before collecting a certain amount of whatever and discovering the game and trying out harder difficulties. NOTHING has changed. You can still do all that.

 

Online trophies... I despise online trophies.. WHY MAKE ONLINE TROPHIES IF YOU'RE NOT GOING TO KEEP THE SERVERS RUNNING FOREVER or having no intention of changing the trophy for late adopters of the game.. And making us get 5-7 people to be in one spot or make you do something while in a server with 7 other people and if one person leaves before you finish your task, it resets.. JUST STOP WITH THE ONLINE TROPHIES.

 

I actually like this trophy list and PlayStation’s new rule. I want to enjoy the game and play on normal mode and then move onto a different game. And maybe one day I might want to replay the game again and play it differently to spice it up. I don't want to be wasting my time collecting 1or 2 million bolts..

 

I have ocd, so I go for trophies cause it makes me feel uneasy knowing I have an unfinished trophy list. It's like that feeling you get when you can't remember if you locked the door or turned off the stove. 

[Johnny_Broflex]

On 6/16/2021 at 8:40 AM, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

Trophy hunting today reminds me of the King of the Hill episode when Bobby is going to shoot his first deer but Hank forgets to get his hunting license and Bobby ends up shooting a deer in a "hunting center" basically with feeders that bring deer over to them and there's almost nothing resembling real hunting.

 

To be fair, Bobby knows how unethical it is and decides to not shoot the deer.   If you remember the episode, they do the high fence hunting but don't shoot anything and as they are driving home they hit a deer with the truck and thats what Bobby brings home. 

[DrBloodmoney]

8 hours ago, Deadly_Ha_Ha said:

 I don't think people here were expecting difficulty out of nowhere but I've seen many criticisms and arguments for why the list does take away from the hobby that aren't really... What you said.

 

Point me to any one poster that you are referencing here, and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that I could look at their list, and pull 10 games immediately - right off the top of my head - that they haven't played, but that do offer the level of challenge they crave.

 

There is nothing wrong with seeking challenge as the primary goal in gaming. I don't place much stock in it myself, but everyone has their thing.

That is fine - however - it is preposterous for someone to try and claim that a family-friendly, easy entry in a family-friendly, easy series having a family-friendly, easy trophy list is somehow detrimental to the hobby as a whole.

 

Even if this is the easiest Ratchet game to platinum... so what?

That's hardly a high bar to begin with.

There has never been a Ratchet game that anyone would hold up the platinum of as evidence of 'high-skill' gaming achievement.

That has never been the wheelhouse of these games, and expecting it to be now is absurd - we've had nine previous, trophy-sporting entries in the franchise to learn that. If someone hasn't figured it out by now, and are still buying Ratchet games looking for high challenge? They are either foolish, ignorant or obstinate.

 

To be clear - I'm not overly irked by the idea of this thread talking about how easy the trophy list is. It feels a little like ordering a meal that you know you won't like, then complaining about it, but whatever. What I object to more, is the notion being bandied-around, that the whole hobby suffers simply because some games don't offer some peoples chosen level of 'challenge'.

 

Challenging games exist. They haven't gone away. Anyone is free to play them and - if they want - to play them exclusively. There are more of them out there than any reasonable player could ever run out of, even if those were the only games they played. They don't need to play the easy ones if they don't want to. We are not short of games.

 

The mere existence of easier games does not diminish the hard ones, or the hobby as a whole, simply because some people would rather play the easy ones then complain about them, than stick to playing the games that offer what they want.

Gaming - and trophy hunting - is a broad church. There is room for all types, and all genres and difficulties. Not every game is, or should be, for everyone. Asking or expecting all trophy lists to conform to a single standard of 'challenge' is, in fact, far more poisonous and detrimental to the hobby as a whole than the existence of the easier ones is - as it fosters the very elitist and sanctimonious attitude that turns some newer people away from the hobby.

 

I like watching movies, and like ones that challenge me and have something to say.  That doesn't mean the mere existence of Transformers or Avatar or Fast and Furious somehow diminishes the movies I like though - or that they diminish the entire film industry.

I don't sit through them, then get on forums and complain about what they are. 

I just don't watch them.

 

Gaming is the same - if challenge is the big thing for you? Great! 

Ratchet has never been the game for you - but there are plenty of games out there that are.

Instead of wasting your time playing something that won't satisfy you, then more time complaining about it afterwards, why not simply play the games that are for you?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 23, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[AJ_Radio]

40 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

snip

This entire statement just reveals the stance you have taken since well.... I first started reading your posts. 
 

I realize that any further effort to quote and cherry pick anything you say here is a giant waste of time. 
 

You don’t agree with the OP here. You don’t agree with the other side because you feel they have helped foster an elitist attitude that has contributed to many people leaving this website. Fine. I see where you are coming from and your position is crystal clear, set in concrete. 
 

I watched Game of Thrones. I thought the first few seasons were outstanding. Then it started to fall apart. That ending was one of the most colossal fuck ups I’ve ever witnessed.
 

I went on various forums and bitched about it. Just about everyone who did the same thing was a long time fan who stuck with Game of Thrones from the beginning. Sure, I was attacked a few times for my opinions, but when you go after a few loyal fans because they thought the ending to that show was horrible? They had every right to complain about it. The same thing is happening here with Ratchet & Clank. 

 

I can pick over 30 - 50 games on PS4 that are hard as nails, but the truth is I’m not interested in many of them, so I have decided I will not bother playing them. The purpose of the OP was to rant about the trophy list, after he had said repeatedly that he thought the game itself was a lot of fun.

 

There are many people who played Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart who haven’t and will never make an account on PSNProfiles. They’re not trophy hunters, and that’s fine. But this is getting far out of hand. 
 

This is like telling someone who is a long time fan of the rapper Kendrick Lamar he is not the guy for him because he expressed online that Lamar’s latest rap albums were awful. The point is, this person has every right to complain about it, regardless of how long he has supported Lamar’s music career.
 

There’s a big difference between not complaining about something you were never interested in the first place, and complaining about a series you have supported for decades, as I’m sure many people here have done for Ratchet & Clank because the series has been consistently good. 
 

If you read more closely most posters here aren’t deliberating asking every other game to conform to a certain level of ‘challenge’, so I have no idea where you pulled that from. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by AJ_Radio

[DrBloodmoney]

3 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

This entire statement just reveals the stance you have taken since well.... I first started reading your posts. 

 

Well... sure? Consistency is going to happen when none of the counter arguments convince you 

 

 

3 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

I realize that any further effort to quote and cherry pick anything you say here is a giant waste of time. 

 

Debate isn't a waste of time - it's only a waste of time if you feel like the other person doesn't listen or take on board what you say.

I can assure you, I do - I just don't agree, and haven't been convinced by any of the counter arguments.

I was responding primarily to @Deadly_Ha_Ha - a user I have a-lot of respect for, who's opinions I value, and one who - I think - knows that I put plenty of stock in what he has to say, and certainly consider each response he gives - even if we don't always agree on the minutiae.

A description which, I would add AJ, I think is true of you also.

 

 

3 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

There’s a big difference between not complaining about something you were never interested in the first place, and complaining about a series you have supported for decades, as I’m sure many people here have done for Ratchet & Clank because the series has been consistently good. 
 

 

Anyone who has "supported the series for decades" knows the series has never been about challenge - asking for it to be now is asinine - and hypocritical if the person doing the complaining has skipped the very games released on the same system, in the same time-frame, that do offer the challenge they crave.

 

 

3 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

If you read more closely most posters here aren’t deliberating asking every other game to conform to a certain level of ‘challenge’, so I have no idea where you pulled that from. 

 

There are a number of posts here bemoaning what they see as a broad reduction in the challenge of games (which I don't agree with), and complaining that Sony has no "Quality control" or "Standards" anymore with regards to trophy lists.

 

Asking for a "Standard" in the context of a thread about the ease of a trophy list  is - by definition - proposing that lists to adhere to a certain level of challenge.

[Arcesius]

5 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

There are a number of posts here bemoaning what they see as a broad reduction in the challenge of games (which I don't agree with), and complaining that Sony has no "Quality control" or "Standards" anymore with regards to trophy lists.

 

Asking for a "Standard" in the context of a thread about the ease of a trophy list  is - by definition - proposing that lists to adhere to a certain level of challenge.

 

Sorry to chime in, I don't have a PS5, haven't played the game, don't care about R&C. But you did see the quote above about Sony forcing their first-party developers to not include difficulty-related trophies in their games as to boost sales, due to "hard trophies" causing trophy hunters to not buy the game?

 

Sony is actually setting a standard, but it's one that is exactly meant to reduce the challenge of trophy lists. Not necessarily of the games, but that's not what this thread is about, I think?

 

 

Also, I find it quite sad that a proper analysis (by Sony's analysts, apparently) shows evidence that trophy hunters stay away from hard games. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Arcesius

[DrBloodmoney]

Just now, Arcesius said:

 

Sorry to chime in, I don't have a PS5, haven't played the game, don't care. But you did see the quote above about Sony forcing their first-party developers to not include difficulty-related trophies in their games as to boost sales, due to "hard trophies" causing trophy hunters to not buy the game?

 

 

Indeed, but that is applicable only to first-party games, of which there are - even on a prolific year - maybe 6 to 8 of?

 

Hardly a drop in the ocean in terms of the breadth of games releasing. Certainly, if a person were to skip every first-party game due to them lacking the challenge they want, they would not be hurting to find other games to fill the small gap that would leave.

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

4 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

I was responding primarily to @Deadly_Ha_Ha - a user I have a-lot of respect for, who's opinions I value, and one who - I think - knows that I put plenty of stock in what he has to say, and certainly consider each response he gives - even if we don't always agree on the minutiae.

A description which, I would add AJ, I think is true of you also.

 

I appreciate that, and the feeling is mutual. I would just say that you keep talking about challenge; a challenging list, a challenging game. I'm just pointing out that in the beginning of this thread you and I were on the same page about what this really comes down to, and I'm not sure where along the way it kind of got reduced to "difficulty" as much. 

 

But all in all my personal argument as to why this single game's deviation toward the unfulfilling side of trophy hunting is bad for the hobby is because it is in line with a negative trend. More shallow lists, more easy games, ps5 autopops. These are bad for the hobby, that's just my opinion, I can't see it any other way. This R&C game for all the reasons mostly pointed out on the front page and then reiterated for the rest of the thread, is almost more of a trendsetter than anything because of its popularity. But challenge, difficulty, these are things that I really think are not the point here