‘Big Leagues’ & ‘Run Like the Wind’ Bias

[HoorayForTyler]

My comment asking this same question got deleted from a flag dispute, so I’m asking again here:

 

Why is the ‘Big Leagues’ trophy in Black Ops II blacklisted on this site, but a trophy like ‘Run Like the Wind’ in GTA V is not? Is there some kind of bias going on with the CRT or something? Because both trophies are still obtainable by the same means: a modded lobby/hacker. I don’t see how the latter trophy gets a pass, but ‘Big Leagues’ doesn't. Is there anyone that can actually answer my question? I genuinely want to know how CRT determines what trophies get a pass. 

[Stevieboy]

While I can't speak for the CRT, I don't think either trophy gets a pass as such, but Run Like The Wind is given a little bit of leniency due to you still having to meet the requirements of the trophy for it to pop, whereas Big Leagues is just flat out given to you instantly.

[B1rvine]

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I don't think either trophy gets a pass as such, but Run Like The Wind is given a little bit of leniency due to you still having to meet the requirements of the trophy for it to pop, whereas Big Leagues is just flat out given to you instantly.

 

This.

 

There's no official whitelist (but there should be...) and the rules specifically state benefitting from hacked lobbies online are flaggable. With that said, we try to be lenient since people might just want to play games and not realize they've cheated.

 

In BO2's instance, your trophies are flat out autopopped by a hacker using a "straight up hack" via a mod menu, whether it's one trophy or the entire list. Alternatively, players can intentionally take advantage of the CFW based tools left behind in the game. In the event of the former, there's easy ways to avoid syncing and/or delete the trophies. It's hard to argue anyone getting countless autopopped trophies wouldn't understand they aren't legitimate. 

 

GTA V's situation is a bit different. To obtain Run Like the Wind, you're still required to earn the trophy's requirement, so generic gamers may not understand the bounty system was disabled and they were hacked. Level trophies are also potentially forgiven, since the game is based on progression that's nearly impossible to undo (unlike BO2) since progress is stored on Rockstar's servers. With that said, if we suspect people willingly seek out hackers, or know the situation and "hope for the best" they'll highly likely be flagged. 

 

As PSNP's policies evolve, new situations arise, trophy system potentially changes, etc, we always need to consider overall leaderboard fairness for all involved. For example, someone recently complained they weren't in the top "speedrun board" since their spot was taken by someone with a less pure completion.

 

While the majority feel these shouldn't be flagged, there's a significant number of people who still think they should be, and the official rules indicate they are to be flagged.  Regardless, we try to balance the situation as best as possible to keep overall fairness.

 

It's a super fine line. 

 

Edited July 3, 2021 by B1rvine

[patrizio1811]

On 3/7/2021 at 7:37 PM, B1rvine said:

With that said, if we suspect people willingly seek out hackers, or know the situation and "hope for the best" they'll highly likely be flagged. 

 

 

This is exactly the problem. When you flag a person, you are judging him, not just his actions, but the person himself. judging it then, moreover, in a negative way based on your personal suspicion is the most wrong thing ever. Given your role, judging based on your personal suspicion is a behavior that aggravates your choices millions of times more.

 

Clearly, however, here we are all human beings so it is to be considered inevitable that there is, i hope albeit in a minimal part, a personal judgment, in this case, however, your common sense should always come out when you are called to judge.

 

I'll give you an example, a few days ago you put the flag on a person for trophies in gtav for which he had perfectly explained to you that he had been blocked by a modder in an enclosed space with no exits and that without even having time to leave the session before those trophies had been unlocked. These are exactly those situations in which, when you are called to judge, your common sense must always come out. When that person explains the dynamics of what happened in a clear and exhaustive way, you cannot and must never limit your judgment (based on rules that you know very well can never refer to every single situation) to a simple white or black, black of course in this case, but you have to use your common sense. If you had used a little common sense in judging that person you would have immediately understood that he was the first victim of the whole situation. he was the victim of the modder who blocked him in a closed place and who did mess to his account, he was the victim of the person who reported him, and he was the victim of you again when you judged him in the same way as those who use voluntarily cfw to auto unlock the trophies. these are mistakes that you cannot afford given the role you have and that you must never make again.

[DrBloodmoney]

On 03/07/2021 at 5:45 PM, Stevieboy said:

While I can't speak for the CRT, I don't think either trophy gets a pass as such, but Run Like The Wind is given a little bit of leniency due to you still having to meet the requirements of the trophy for it to pop, whereas Big Leagues is just flat out given to you instantly.

 

On 03/07/2021 at 6:37 PM, B1rvine said:

There's no official whitelist (but there should be...) and the rules specifically state benefitting from hacked lobbies online are flaggable. With that said, we try to be lenient since people might just want to play games and not realize they've cheated.

 

I have no stake in this (not being affected by either trophy - well, any more than every user is affected, in the sense that these threads are perennial and endlessly recurring ?)  but, just out of curiosity, aren't the Mods and the CRT exactly the people who are empowered to decide to, and to implement, such a 'whitelist'?

 

Certainly from the outside, Run Like the Wind at least seems to be a bit of a silly one to still be flaggable, given that the requirements to fulfil are the same whether the actual bounty was the result of a modder or not. That one feels not much different to, say, rolling back FFXV comrades to early versions in order to achieve them - it's an outside-of-game method of making a trophy available, but the requirements still need to be fulfilled in the same manner?

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[The-Man-In-Black]

On 7/3/2021 at 1:37 PM, B1rvine said:

 

This.

 

There's no official whitelist (but there should be...) and the rules specifically state benefitting from hacked lobbies online are flaggable. With that said, we try to be lenient since people might just want to play games and not realize they've cheated.

 

Then the rules need to be changed, or at the very least amended to create a whitelist for trophies that players could earn through the course of (on their end) natural play.   One of the things I keep seeing coming from official sources is a general attitude of "the rules are the rules", as if the rules are set in stone and can't be changed.   There's absolutely nothing stopping you guys from amending the rules to account for situations like this, instead of just throwing your hands in the air as if nothing can be done.   

 

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With that said, if we suspect people willingly seek out hackers, or know the situation and "hope for the best" they'll highly likely be flagged.

 

This is a terrible, terrible policy.   It's akin to telling people they're not allowed to play games like GTA or BO2 because they might run into a hacker.  I agree with guidelines like not using the site to coordinate boosting of illegitimate trophies.  Don't seek out mods or modders.  Stuff like that.  If players are caught doing stuff like that, then I agree they should be flagged accordingly.  But in the absence of any evidence that a player actively looked for a way to pop trophies illegitimately, the site should work under the assumption that the player did not intend to cheat and should be treated accordingly.   Players should never be penalized for playing a game they paid for in the manner it was intended to be played. 

RLTW has been unobtainable since April of 2017.  It's been unobtainable at this point longer than it was obtainable.  And there has been a steady stream of people earning it ever since it shut down.  While I don't have the data to support this, I'd be willing to bet that more people have earned the trophy illegitimately (and most likely unintentionally, or at least without realizing something is wrong) than legitimately.   

 

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As PSNP's policies evolve, new situations arise, trophy system potentially changes, etc, we always need to consider overall leaderboard fairness for all involved. For example, someone recently complained they weren't in the top "speedrun board" since their spot was taken by someone with a less pure completion.

 

As of this typing....the person at the top of the "first achievers" leaderboards for RLTW managed to earn it four years before the game came out.  Just saying. 

 

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While the majority feel these shouldn't be flagged, there's a significant number of people who still think they should be, and the official rules indicate they are to be flagged.  Regardless, we try to balance the situation as best as possible to keep overall fairness.

 

It's a super fine line. 

 

Again, there's nothing stopping you guys from amending the rules to account for situations like this.  It's not a papal bull.   

Trophies like RLTW and situations of games in general like GTA are extreme corner cases.  As written, the rules threaten to punish more innocent players than actual cheaters.  Rules that do that are always terrible and need to be addressed.  Keep in mind, I'm *only* talking about games where a player could have trophies auto-pop for them without any action taken by them, through no fault of their own.  If they have to take active steps to get the trophies to pop (such as seeking out a modded lobby instead of sticking strictly to public ones), or you find evidence that they actively sought out a modder to pop the trophies (say, posts on this site, or attempts at making a boosting thread for illegitimate trophies, for example) then I agree that they should be flagged accordingly. 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by The-Man-In-Black

[B1rvine]

On 7/5/2021 at 3:49 AM, DrBloodmoney said:

Aren't the Mods and the CRT exactly the people who are empowered to decide to, and to implement, such a 'whitelist'?

 

On 7/5/2021 at 3:57 AM, The-Man-In-Black said:

There's nothing stopping you guys from amending the rules to account for situations like this.

 

No.

 

Mods don't handle cheater reports in any capacity. In certain fringe situations, CRT can update rules if existing ones are conflict with each other, etc. Changing an existing rule really needs to come from Sly.

 

Only Sly can implement a whitelist, and he's indicated in the past he's got no plans to do so. Right now, there's no option for "Whitelist" next to a report, only "Cheat" or "Legit". Technically, CRT could just mark them all legit, but it doesn't solve the problem.

 

Realistically, the rules shouldn't be changed. Nor the floodgates be opened. Not being able to benefit from CFW in any way really NEEDS to be a rule. In addition to this rule, an official whitelist should be implemented.

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by B1rvine

[DrBloodmoney]

11 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

 

No.

 

Mods don't handle cheater reports in any capacity. In certain fringe situations, CRT can update rules if existing ones are conflict with each other, etc. Changing an existing rule really needs to come from Sly.

 

Only Sly can implement a whitelist, and he's indicated in the past he's got no plans to do so. Right now, there's no option for "Whitelist" next to a report, only "Chest" or "Legit". Technically, CRT could just mark them all legit, but it doesn't solve the problem.

 

Fair enough I suppose - it was my understanding that Sly was semi-retired at this point though? That's mostly based on other people's posts about site updates and the likes though - I've not actually seen if he's ever made any post addressing his status.

 

All I meant by this was, as staff of the site, surely some consensus on your part would at least sway Sly one way or the other - you guys are the front-line, front-facing face of PSNP after all.

 

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Realistically, the rules shouldn't be changed. Nor the floodgates be opened. Not being able to benefit from CFW in any way really NEEDS to be a rule. In addition to this rule, an official whitelist should be implemented.

 

I guess I understand this - though I am curious what the genuine difference is seen to be between rolling back FFXV to previous versions to get Comrades trophies, andRun Like the Wind.

 

(I am genuinely asking here, only because I have had a look at the method for rolling back FFXV to get those, and - from an (admittedly, not very technically minded individual like myself ? ) - it seems wildly complicated, and involving a lot of weird, hack-adjacent methods and third party software) 

 

 

EDIT - admittedly, this is where I begin to have some kind of stake in the argument - I've shied away from attempting any of these methods with FFXV, as the method seems so close to hacking, that I kind of assumed that at some point the rules might change, and I would suddenly be seen to have engaged in a practice no longer allowed, and be retroactively tainted ??

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[B1rvine]

18 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

I guess I understand this - though I am curious what the genuine difference is seen to be between rolling back FFXV to previous versions to get Comrades trophies, andRun Like the Wind.

 

(I am genuinely asking here, only because I have had a look at the method for rolling back FFXV to get those, and - from an (admittedly, not very technically minded individual like myself  ) - it seems wildly complicated, and involving a lot of weird, hack-adjacent methods and third party software) 

 

It's a simple question with a really complicated answer. 

 

One thing you need to consider, some people just might not have ever upgraded their game to begin with (and this applies to any game, not only FF XV). Even in the event people are rolling back, they're still installing an official update Sony made available at one point. What's not wanted is an in-game altering solution, or a modification to the XMB / OS itself. 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by B1rvine

[DrBloodmoney]

8 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

It's a simple question with a really complicated answer. 

 

One thing you need to consider, some people just might not have ever upgraded their game to begin with (and this applies to any game, not only FF XV). Even in the event people are rolling back, they're still installing an official update Sony made available at one point. What's not wanted is an in-game altering solution, or a modification to the XMB / OS itself. 

 

Fair enough - (I understand the gist, if not the specifics - I might be getting too old for the minutia here ?)

 

As I understand - to use an example -  theoretically, something like DIY PMC would not be flaggable is someone was able to make a new "mask creation' website that the game somehow linked to, if doing so didn't alter the game code or the XMB, but it would be flaggable if they modified the game or the XMB to point to it?

 

 

 

On the other thing - and not to stick my head in the lion's mouth here - but don't you guys get tired of having to tell people over and over that this kind of thing is Sly's call, given that he, while ultimately responsible for the site, does have you guys as a staff to manage the day-to-day responsibilities? I would have assumed that, as the CRT, you should have ultimate authority on what the rules are.

 

For example - if, (in theory,) Sly himself was flagged for a trophy, you guys would still be responsible for acting on it within the same rules as everyone else, rather than him ruling on his own case, wouldn't you?

 

[B1rvine]

1 hour ago, DrBloodmoney said:

As I understand - to use an example -  theoretically, something like DIY PMC would not be flaggable is someone was able to make a new "mask creation' website that the game somehow linked to, if doing so didn't alter the game code or the XMB, but it would be flaggable if they modified the game or the XMB to point to it?

 

I've never played the game, but I'll assume the game's coded to link with a very specific server etc . If someone was skilled enough to create a working alternative site, the game still wouldn't know how to find it without being altered, which is of course flaggable. I guess it's possible the domain could go for sale, and a third party could buy the site, and re-create a mask interaction, but it would still be a "self built" creation, which is at least a grey area for sure, since that's listed as flaggable. The rules weren't written in a way that covers this exact scenario, but in my opinion, can be extended to disallow replicating "official dev solutions". For one, someone would have complete control over this option, potentially gatekeeping it etc. But it also just opens up too many cans of worms. Etc.

 

If the scenario above ever did happen, this is where the CRT would likely debate it, and update the rules accordingly. My vote would be to not allow it.

 

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I would have assumed that, as the CRT, you should have ultimate authority on what the rules are.

 

Sly is a CRT member too. Anyway, it's Sly's for-profit site, so he'll make the rules to consider his customers, not us. He should have the ultimate authority. If a major rule is to be considered, the CRT will give him our opinions on the matter, the pros and cons, but ultimately he'll decide. For example, he decided to allow the Gonespy custom server a few years back. If there's a minor rule conflict etc, we're able to make quick updates. 

 

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For example - if, (in theory,) Sly himself was flagged for a trophy, you guys would still be responsible for acting on it within the same rules as everyone else, rather than him ruling on his own case, wouldn't you?

 

I'm pretty sure nobody will flag Sly. Lmao.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by B1rvine

[DrBloodmoney]

3 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

I've never played the game, but I'll assume the game's coded to link with a very specific server etc . If someone was skilled enough to create a working alternative site, the game still wouldn't know how to find it without being altered, which is of course flaggable. I guess it's possible the domain could go for sale, and a third party could buy the site, and re-create a mask interaction, but it would still be a "self built" creation, which is at least a grey area for sure, since that's listed as flaggable. The rules weren't extended to include this exact scenario, but in my opinion, the rules can extend to include replicating "unofficial dev solutions". For one, someone would have complete control over this option, potentially gatekeeping it etc. But it also just opens up too many cans of worms. Etc.

 

If the scenario above ever did happen, this is where the CRT would likely debate it, and update the rules accordingly. My vote would be to not allow it.

 

Intersting - all theoretical of course, but I do like these kind of scenarios for discussion!

 

 

3 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

 

Sly is a CRT member too. Anyway, it's Sly's for-profit site, so he'll make the rules to consider his customers, not us. He should have the ultimate authority. If a major rule is to be considered, the CRT will give him our opinions on the matter, the pros and cons, but ultimately he'll decide. For example, he decided to allow the Gonespy custom server a few years back. If there's a minor rule conflict etc, we're able to make quick updates. 

 

That's interesting - I didn't realise he was a member of the CRT team too.

 

 

3 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

I'm pretty sure nobody will flag Sly. Lmao.

 

Haha, probably not! - But hey - if we've learned nothing else from global politics over the last few years, it's that the question of who is above the law is one that's worth having ?

[adam1984123]

6 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

That's interesting - I didn't realise he was a member of the CRT team too.

I think the best thing the CRT could do to get this white list implemented (if that's what the 4 of them want?) is for all of them to just quit. 

 

Since sly makes all the decisions, yet never shows face or comments publicly on these matters, he will be forced to either:

 

A: make the change since the other 4 are the ones who do all the work and cop all the brunt of this stuff when they don't deserve it. 

 

B: do all the stuff himself - which he won't because who would want that job. 

 

C: leave the leaderboards to be covered in cheated trophies as his whole CRT team has stopped working (for free) because he is too stubborn to do anything about it when an overwhelming majority of the users on this site would like a change. 

 

Seems like that would be the only way to make a change on this place. 

[The-Man-In-Black]

4 hours ago, B1rvine said:

 

 

No.

 

Mods don't handle cheater reports in any capacity. In certain fringe situations, CRT can update rules if existing ones are conflict with each other, etc. Changing an existing rule really needs to come from Sly.

 

Let me be clear.  When I say "you", I don't mean you personally.  Or even members of CRT.  I'm speaking in general terms about the entire administrative staff behind the scenes.  Somebody there has the ability to amend the rules.   They weren't set in stone on a tablet thousands of years ago, unable to be changed.   

 

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Only Sly can implement a whitelist, and he's indicated in the past he's got no plans to do so. Right now, there's no option for "Whitelist" next to a report, only "Chest" or "Legit". Technically, CRT could just mark them all legit, but it doesn't solve the problem.

 

This is the problem.  Sly, I assume, knows that there are a handful of games and trophies like this.  He knows that innocent players are getting caught up in this, and has, by your statement, decided not to do anything about it.   And if CRT isn't marking them legit as appropriate (with obvious exceptions -- see below) given the circumstances, that's also part of the problem.  Both are bad policy.   

 

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Realistically, the rules shouldn't be changed. Nor the floodgates be opened. Not being able to benefit from CFW in any way really NEEDS to be a rule. In addition to this rule, an official whitelist should be implemented.

 

On this point, we're basically arguing from the same side then.  And I fully agree that a whitelist would be the better option.  It really only needs to apply to a select handful of very few games under very specific circumstances.   I believe the most common are GTA's online trophies, Big Leagues from BO2, and a couple of others I've seen in the various discussions on the subject.  a

 

That being said, "floodgates" wouldn't be open.  Again, very few specific trophies under very specific circumstances.   Sly could announce a rule change tomorrow, and I doubt you'll see droves of people suddenly develop an interest for nearly-decade-old games in hopes of autopopping less than a handful of very specific trophies.  Nobody in 2021 is going to make a serious play for the leaderboards of almost 10 year old games.  Anyone who cared about their position on those leaderboards played and completed those games a long, long time ago.   While I understand and completely support the idea of keeping the leaderboards as clean as possible and keeping cheaters off the site, the arguments implying that any wiggle room at all will somehow "open the floodgates" to all sorts of cheating and ruin the integrity of the leaderboards sometimes strays out of the realm of legitimate concern and into the realm of paranoia.   The realistic impact to the affected leaderboards would be minimal to nonexistent, and the better play is to ensure that otherwise-legitimate players aren't flagged as cheaters due to actions out of their control.   I'm sure the staff on site would be able to handle making manual adjustments for the one or two players on the planet who, for some reason, woke up in 2021, decided to buy a highly outdated version of a game on a two-generation-old system, speedran it in two weeks, and played the online looking for a modder to pop RLTW for them just so they can top a leaderboard that 99% of players probably stopped caring about half a decade ago.  

 

Most actual cheaters don't just pop one or two questionable trophies.  You should know this far, far better than me.   I've turned in dozens of cheaters on this and other sites over the years and don't remember a single case where they stuck to one or two games.  More often than not, they have perfect or near-perfect completion percentages with dozens of illegitimate trophies.   You'd still be able to spot the actual cheaters easily simply by looking at other games on their list. 

And the position of "not being able to benefit from CFW in any way" and concerns over the legitimacy of the leaderboards rings a bit hollow when the "First achievers" board for RLTW is topped off with someone who has a clearly illegitimate timestamp from four years before the game was released.    That guy is actually a shining example of how easy it is to spot an actual cheater vs. one who just got caught up in this mess;  Legitimate players who got the trophy through a hacker's bounty will have a current timestamp.  Someone with a ridiculous timestamp like that would clearly be cheating. 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by The-Man-In-Black

[The Moose Knuckler]

@B1rvine so for the example of blops2. Would you guys be more lenient if a person did all other trophies in the game and then used to video trick to pop big leagues?

[The-Man-In-Black]

7 hours ago, Bahamut3104 said:

@B1rvine so for the example of blops2. Would you guys be more lenient if a person did all other trophies in the game and then used to video trick to pop big leagues?

 

You're not helping the case.  At all.  

Yes, there should be a whitelist for trophies such as Big Leagues where a player can have it pop for them through the course of normal play -- jumping into a public lobby in hopes of playing a legitimate game.   But the *minute* you step off that path and start actively searching for ways to get the trophy to pop through illegitimate means, you should be flagged for cheating. 

Happen to stumble into a lobby?  OK.  Actively searching out a lobby?  Not OK.  Using this site to arrange a lobby, discuss how to find a modder, or otherwise obtain the trophy illegitimately?  Definitely not OK and should be subject to further action by the mods and/or CRT as appropriate. 

 

There should be only one exception for whitelisted trophies.  Did the player take no active steps beyond just playing the game normally and have the trophies in question pop through no fault of their own?  If the answer to that question is yes, you're fine.  But the minute evidence pops up that you actively sought out illegitimate means of having a trophy pop (such as your post), you should be flagged accordingly. 

 

Coming on this site and asking questions like "IF I do <insert sketchy act here>, would that be OK?" is exactly why people like Sly don't want to change the rules.   Common sense already should dictate that the answer to your question is "No, that is not OK."    All you're doing is making it harder for people who want to get a whitelist implemented by engaging in the exact behavior that they are afraid of. 

 

It's simple.   Step 1:  Play the game normally.  Step 2:  Go back to step 1.  If the trophy happens to pop, you should be good.  If not, sucks to be you.  But the instant you do anything else, you're cheating.  Full stop.  There is no "But what about......".    Because anything that comes after "But what about...." is cheating. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by The-Man-In-Black

[The Moose Knuckler]

16 hours ago, The-Man-In-Black said:

 

You're not helping the case.  At all.  

Yes, there should be a whitelist for trophies such as Big Leagues where a player can have it pop for them through the course of normal play -- jumping into a public lobby in hopes of playing a legitimate game.   But the *minute* you step off that path and start actively searching for ways to get the trophy to pop through illegitimate means, you should be flagged for cheating. 

Happen to stumble into a lobby?  OK.  Actively searching out a lobby?  Not OK.  Using this site to arrange a lobby, discuss how to find a modder, or otherwise obtain the trophy illegitimately?  Definitely not OK and should be subject to further action by the mods and/or CRT as appropriate. 

 

There should be only one exception for whitelisted trophies.  Did the player take no active steps beyond just playing the game normally and have the trophies in question pop through no fault of their own?  If the answer to that question is yes, you're fine.  But the minute evidence pops up that you actively sought out illegitimate means of having a trophy pop (such as your post), you should be flagged accordingly. 

 

Coming on this site and asking questions like "IF I do <insert sketchy act here>, would that be OK?" is exactly why people like Sly don't want to change the rules.   Common sense already should dictate that the answer to your question is "No, that is not OK."    All you're doing is making it harder for people who want to get a whitelist implemented by engaging in the exact behavior that they are afraid of. 

 

It's simple.   Step 1:  Play the game normally.  Step 2:  Go back to step 1.  If the trophy happens to pop, you should be good.  If not, sucks to be you.  But the instant you do anything else, you're cheating.  Full stop.  There is no "But what about......".    Because anything that comes after "But what about...." is cheating. 

So based on your statement if I accidentally stumbled into a modded lobby and it popped then it would be ok. The point of the whitelist is for a way that everyone could obtain the trophy without looking for a person to mod the game. The admin console in blops 2 is available for everyone to do. That is no different than the admin consoles in Conan or Ark or using families that someone else created in Sims 4 to pop all the trophies.

 

[The-Man-In-Black]

2 hours ago, Bahamut3104 said:

So based on your statement if I accidentally stumbled into a modded lobby and it popped then it would be ok. The point of the whitelist is for a way that everyone could obtain the trophy without looking for a person to mod the game. The admin console in blops 2 is available for everyone to do. That is no different than the admin consoles in Conan or Ark or using families that someone else created in Sims 4 to pop all the trophies.

 

 

I'd be interested to learn more about this if what you're saying is true.   How exactly is this trick supposed to work?  Because I will gladly log in with an alt account and videotape myself earning the trophy in this manner to prove whether or not it works.  (I already legitimately earned the trophy years ago).  

 

Simple questions.  Is the admin console available for everybody without the need for mods or other workarounds?  Can it be done on a regular PS3 with official firmware (no CFW), playing a legitimate copy of the game?    Because if this is the case and it actually works for regular players, there is absolutely no reason for Big Leagues to be considered illegitimate at all.    If this trick works the way you're describing, it would be on par with changing your console's date or time to get a time-based trophy to pop early, or using a game save from Spider Man on PS4 to pop the entire platinum on the PS5 version.  

 

Stumbling into a modded lobby (NOT intentionally hunting one down or trying to organize one) should be OK, so long as you don't have to take active steps to get there.   That's what people like me are advocating for --  not punishing players for getting trophies through the course of natural play that only popped because of the actions of others.   The whitelist should be for those who incidentally had the trophy pop through no fault of their own.  Not to give people an excuse to go out and try to get illegitimate trophies to pop.  

If what you're describing is true, Big Leagues shouldn't be on the whitelist because there wouldn't be a need for it to be there, since there would still be a way to earn it legitimately.  

[HoorayForTyler]

On 7/3/2021 at 0:37 PM, B1rvine said:

This.

 

There's no official whitelist (but there should be...) and the rules specifically state benefitting from hacked lobbies online are flaggable. With that said, we try to be lenient since people might just want to play games and not realize they've cheated.

 

In BO2's instance, your trophies are flat out autopopped by a hacker using a "straight up hack" via a mod menu, whether it's one trophy or the entire list. Alternatively, players can intentionally take advantage of the CFW based tools left behind in the game. In the event of the former, there's easy ways to avoid syncing and/or delete the trophies. It's hard to argue anyone getting countless autopopped trophies wouldn't understand they aren't legitimate. 

 

GTA V's situation is a bit different. To obtain Run Like the Wind, you're still required to earn the trophy's requirement, so generic gamers may not understand the bounty system was disabled and they were hacked. Level trophies are also potentially forgiven, since the game is based on progression that's nearly impossible to undo (unlike BO2) since progress is stored on Rockstar's servers. With that said, if we suspect people willingly seek out hackers, or know the situation and "hope for the best" they'll highly likely be flagged. 

 

As PSNP's policies evolve, new situations arise, trophy system potentially changes, etc, we always need to consider overall leaderboard fairness for all involved. For example, someone recently complained they weren't in the top "speedrun board" since their spot was taken by someone with a less pure completion.

 

While the majority feel these shouldn't be flagged, there's a significant number of people who still think they should be, and the official rules indicate they are to be flagged.  Regardless, we try to balance the situation as best as possible to keep overall fairness.

 

It's a super fine line. 

Hmm, you lost me. You say there should be a whitelist, but there has been no action to actually implement one on this website for what reason exactly? I’ve read through this thread and the only consensus I can come to is because Sly doesn’t care. If he really has the final say on everything, but also isn’t as involved in the inner workings of site rules anymore, why can’t you and the rest of the CRT actually lay down some ground rules for officially unobtainable trophies? I think it’s about time it’s done. 
 

And you just said it man: the bounty system was disabled. Therefore, the trophy—under official means—is unobtainable without the assistance of a hacker or joining a modded lobby, doesn’t matter if you’re doing the requirements for it or not. Let’s say someone reopened the League Play feature in Black Ops II and suddenly you could obtain the unobtainable trophy, does that make it okay just bc they were able to actually complete the requirements vs. having it autopop? No, their flags would remain. 
 

It is the same situation as ‘Big Leagues’…doesn’t matter if you’re still doing the requirements for it or not, unknowingly or not. And how can you possibly weed out the people outright seeking the trophy vs. those who accidentally obtain the trophy? You just can’t know for sure whether or not someone is lying about it. Think about all of the people who don’t even use this site and don’t know about hackers and modded lobbies that accidentally obtained the ‘Big Leagues’ trophy, it’s not even close to being fair that they have to hide a game on their profile bc CRT says they do and ‘Run Like the Wind’ obtainers can run off without a slap on the wrist. 
 

Being picky choosey about what makes a trophy flaggable vs. officially laying down some overdue ground rules on the site is the most irritating thing. I can see why the hundreds of ppl who have to hide Black Ops II would be furious that GTA V players get a pass with ‘Run Like the Wind’. And you guys are so busy dealing with ‘Big Leagues’ flags that CRT still hasn't approved the flags I submitted for a cheater in Fallout 3 months and months ago. Something’s gotta give. 
 

Last point here: are you actually taking the majority’s opinions on the matter into account, or is the CRT’s word the final say just bc you guys can bend the rules the way you see fit? The majority’s opinion shouldn’t matter if your team has final jurisdiction on all flags, officially. I just want to see some changes made, bc if we’re being honest, CRT is never going to stop dealing with ‘Big Leagues’ flags for as long as the multiplayer is alive in that game. Either put ‘Big Leagues’ on a whitelist, or put ‘Run Like the Wind’ on the blacklist too, otherwise I really don’t take you guys seriously anymore. Hell, y’all let a certain someone unhide their obviously cheated BioShock JP trophy list even after I explained thoroughly why the timestamps were impossible. It makes me question the legitimacy of the operation you guys are running. 
 

I really hope you guys can sort your stuff out and put your brains together to implement some changes on this site, bc it’s a shit show right now. 

Edited July 7, 2021 by HoorayForTyler

[B1rvine]

1 hour ago, HoorayForTyler said:

Hmm, you lost me. You say there should be a whitelist, but there has been no action to actually implement one on this website for what reason exactly?

 

On 7/5/2021 at 10:09 AM, The-Man-In-Black said:

Sly, I assume, knows that there are a handful of games and trophies like this.

 

There's a lot of stuff in your posts I won't cover here.

 

The official reason came from Sly directly a few years ago. He doesn't want to use limited resources on a matter that affects a very small percentage of people overall. 

 

Let me be clear about what the whitelist actually is, and what it would do, since I think there's general confusion about it. It's not a simple rule change to allow / disallow certain things, but rather a change to the code to the website. The specifics weren't ever discussed, but the general idea is that if you're flagged, you still lose the game's points on your account, but you don't get a "regular" flag either. In other words, there's no leaderboard benefit to it being on your account.

 

Quote

The majority’s opinion shouldn’t matter if your team has final jurisdiction on all flags

 

I have mixed feelings about this. Keep in mind PSNP is a product and its members are customers. The community should have some say since they're paying for a service. At the same time, the staff should use feedback to make the best product possible, while still having major influence (and the final say) as well.

 

Quote

 

Stumbling into a modded lobby (NOT intentionally hunting one down or trying to organize one) should be OK.  

 

It's akin to telling people they're not allowed to play games like GTA or BO2 because they might run into a hacker.

 

 

No. It's not only about "cheaters" but also about fairness. The leaderboard is a competition, so people's are justified when they say it's not fair they put in tons of effort while others get the trophies "for free" or benefit from modified code, intentional or not. Also, you're free to play these games, but they shouldn't count towards your score. This is literally one of the reasons there's a two game leniency rule. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by B1rvine

[HoorayForTyler]

1 hour ago, B1rvine said:

There's a lot of stuff in your posts I won't cover here.

 

The official reason came from Sly directly a few years ago. He doesn't want to use limited resources on a matter that affects a very small percentage of people overall. 

 

Let me be clear about what the whitelist actually is, and what it would do, since I think there's general confusion about it. It's not a simple rule change to allow / disallow certain things, but rather a change to the code to the website. The specifics weren't ever discussed, but the general idea is that if you're flagged, you still lose the game's points on your account, but you don't get a "regular" flag either. In other words, there's no leaderboard benefit to it being on your account.

 

 

I have mixed feelings about this. Keep in mind PSNP is a product and its members are customers. The community should have some say since they're paying for a service. At the same time, the staff should use feedback to make the best product possible, while still having major influence (and the final say) as well.

 

 

No. It's not only about "cheaters" but also about fairness. The leaderboard is a competition, so people's are justified when they say it's not fair they put in tons of effort while others get the trophies "for free" or benefit from modified code, intentional or not. Also, you're free to play these games, but they shouldn't count towards your score. This is literally one of the reasons there's a two game leniency rule. 

Thank you for your response. 
 

Yes, I understand not everything I mentioned in my comment is in direct relation to the topic at hand, but I cannot send you personal messages to reach out about topics that I’ve been wanting to discuss with you. Others on CRT have been of no help to me or do not care for what I have to say. 

And your explanation on what a whitelist would entail does make a lot of sense and honestly sounds like it’d be very beneficial and less work on you guys if it were actually integrated, but alas, if Sly doesn’t care for it and thinks it’s a waste of time then I suppose the flags will just keep on piling up. 
 

My main problem with the entire situation stemmed from ‘Run Like the Wind’ getting a pass when I really don’t think it should fall under a separate category bc of logistics. And that’s where the user’s opinion on this matter should be taken into account if what you say is true. I don’t expect anything to come of this thread, but I’m still hoping for improvements in at least some facets of this site. Hoping to discuss a few more things with you personally soon. 

[The-Man-In-Black]

9 hours ago, B1rvine said:

 

 

There's a lot of stuff in your posts I won't cover here.

 

The official reason came from Sly directly a few years ago. He doesn't want to use limited resources on a matter that affects a very small percentage of people overall. 

 

Let me be clear about what the whitelist actually is, and what it would do, since I think there's general confusion about it. It's not a simple rule change to allow / disallow certain things, but rather a change to the code to the website. The specifics weren't ever discussed, but the general idea is that if you're flagged, you still lose the game's points on your account, but you don't get a "regular" flag either. In other words, there's no leaderboard benefit to it being on your account.

 

This is why better communication from the site, whether it be from Sly or CRT, is necessary.  Because I absolutely agree with this if it is implemented in this manner.  This ensures that the leaderboards remain as clean as realistically possible given the circumstanes while also ensuring that players won't get a publicly viewable "scarlet letter' so to speak on their profile.    Ensuring that these trophies don't affect leaderboards is something I think everybody fully supports.  But most people, myself included, fear that they'll also be branded with a publicly viewable flag on their profile, which most people equate with an accusation that the player actively cheated.   This is what people are most afraid of. 

 

9 hours ago, B1rvine said:

 

No. It's not only about "cheaters" but also about fairness. The leaderboard is a competition, so people's are justified when they say it's not fair they put in tons of effort while others get the trophies "for free" or benefit from modified code, intentional or not. Also, you're free to play these games, but they shouldn't count towards your score. This is literally one of the reasons there's a two game leniency rule.

 

Oh, they absolutely have a valid point.  But on the flip side, I do not believe that the leaderboards are going to be affected to a degree anywhere close to what they think it will, and I also believe that labelling a larger portion of players (which, in some cases are also paying customers, or at the very least people Sly wants to become paying customers) as potential cheaters in order to make a few players happy is the way to go.    I'd be willing to bet that the overwhelming majority of players, at least on GTA, are going to be players in my situation:  players who started the game years ago, heard about the server closure, and are simply trying to clean up as many online trophies as possible before things shut down.   The chances of us having any impact on the leaderboards at all is nonexistent, regardless of how trophies like RLTW are popped, and I doubt there's anyone rushing out there in 2021 to start a game like GTA from scratch on a two-generation-old system in an attempt to make it to the top of the leaderboards now. 

 

That said, implementing a system that you described above solves the problem anyway. 

[The Moose Knuckler]

On 7/6/2021 at 2:01 PM, The-Man-In-Black said:

 

I'd be interested to learn more about this if what you're saying is true.   How exactly is this trick supposed to work?  Because I will gladly log in with an alt account and videotape myself earning the trophy in this manner to prove whether or not it works.  (I already legitimately earned the trophy years ago).  

 

Simple questions.  Is the admin console available for everybody without the need for mods or other workarounds?  Can it be done on a regular PS3 with official firmware (no CFW), playing a legitimate copy of the game?    Because if this is the case and it actually works for regular players, there is absolutely no reason for Big Leagues to be considered illegitimate at all.    If this trick works the way you're describing, it would be on par with changing your console's date or time to get a time-based trophy to pop early, or using a game save from Spider Man on PS4 to pop the entire platinum on the PS5 version.  

 

Stumbling into a modded lobby (NOT intentionally hunting one down or trying to organize one) should be OK, so long as you don't have to take active steps to get there.   That's what people like me are advocating for --  not punishing players for getting trophies through the course of natural play that only popped because of the actions of others.   The whitelist should be for those who incidentally had the trophy pop through no fault of their own.  Not to give people an excuse to go out and try to get illegitimate trophies to pop.  

If what you're describing is true, Big Leagues shouldn't be on the whitelist because there wouldn't be a need for it to be there, since there would still be a way to earn it legitimately.  

 

Sorry for the delay in responding to you. I did this on a non modded ps3 ( I don't have a modded PS3 or even know how to). Here is the forum which shows the video of doing the admin console if you wanted to test it out on an alt.

 

Just in case it doesn't bring you directly to the correct page, it is on page 20.

[The-Man-In-Black]

1 hour ago, Bahamut3104 said:

 

Sorry for the delay in responding to you. I did this on a non modded ps3 ( I don't have a modded PS3 or even know how to). Here is the forum which shows the video of doing the admin console if you wanted to test it out on an alt.

 

Just in case it doesn't bring you directly to the correct page, it is on page 20.

 

 Step one is searching for someone with access to a modded menu and copying some information from them which is definitely not OK. 

 

I'll go back to my original point.  Suggestions like this do not help the cause, as you are asking if it is OK to engage in the exact behavior that Sly and CRT are concerned about.   Step one is looking for someone with access to a mod menu.  Come on.  Even asking a question like that is just either being willfully obtuse or trying to test the waters to see what you can get away with.  Neither of which are OK.  You should know better. 

 

 

[The Moose Knuckler]

On 7/8/2021 at 3:12 PM, The-Man-In-Black said:

 

 Step one is searching for someone with access to a modded menu and copying some information from them which is definitely not OK. 

 

I'll go back to my original point.  Suggestions like this do not help the cause, as you are asking if it is OK to engage in the exact behavior that Sly and CRT are concerned about.   Step one is looking for someone with access to a mod menu.  Come on.  Even asking a question like that is just either being willfully obtuse or trying to test the waters to see what you can get away with.  Neither of which are OK.  You should know better. 

 

 

The only issue they have is whether or not it is available to everyone. If this behavior isn't acceptable them you wouldn't have modded lobbies as the preferred method to boost the online for rdr1.