Wavergray

Auto pop blacklist for fastest achiever?

39 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, PS_Bowser said:

top 50 fastest times leaderboard is pointless in general anyway because it only takes 1 DLC trophy to release to remove your fastest time from the top 50 anyway.

This. If anything this is a much bigger issue (that can also be realistically solved). It makes no sense why there are no separate sections for the fastest achievers. However you want to do it. Base game and every DLC or just Base game and then "100%" as a separate thing. But I'm sure that's been discussed already.

As for the auto-popping, as many said it's one of those problems that you could "solve" - but you would be left with some unsolvable edge cases. To give a simple example: the system doesn't display anyone who completes the game in under a minute - seems like a fair way of checking who auto-popped, right?

What if I auto-pop all but one trophy and then wait for a couple of extra minutes? Suddenly I'm no longer within the range of the auto-detection. The numbers obviously don't matter, it can be 5 minutes, 10, and so on. The point is there will always be workarounds where fair fastest achievers will be left in the dust.

#AutoPopWasAMistake

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Posted (edited)

12 hours ago, PS_Bowser said:

top 50 fastest times leaderboard is pointless in general anyway because it only takes 1 DLC trophy to release to remove your fastest time from the top 50 anyway.

 

True that.

 

there was a point in time where I was "No.1 Fastest 100%" in Cities Skylines - despite the fact that I took my sweet-ass time about the game, played in no way quickly or efficiently, and just fannyed around for the most part - but a dlc just happened to drop right as I was coming to the end of my playthrough.

 

That's changed now, as further dlc came out - but it's nonsense to think that I would have a snowballs chance in hell of even tickling the bottom of that fastest list with the way I played....

...so if I ended up at the top of it, you know there is something rotten in the state of Denmark 😂

Edited by DrBloodmoney
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15 hours ago, ThatMuttGuy said:

It would be nice if they implement something like that. I think the problem is then people would get one trophy and then wait the minimum time and then autopop to be in the leaderboards. 

 

That's why any game with autopops is just a lost cause at this point. 

Maybe it wouldn’t have to be based on the total time for 100% completion, instead it could just find a string of 5 or 6 consecutive trophies to make the discernment. This is arbitrary, it could totally be a higher number, it’s only because I think the most 4 trophies is the most I’ve ever popped at 1 time (like game clear trophies, play-through restriction related and/or difficulty level related). You never know, I’m pretty sure there games out there with feasible opportunities for 5+ consecutive trophies.

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Doesn’t bother me personally, but if I was looking for the technical solution how to effectively detect any auto-popped results (including partial), I would suggest any trophy list that has some number or percentage of trophies unlocked in a row 1-2 seconds from each other to be considered as an auto-popped. In case of Hitman 3, for example, if at least let’s say 9 out of 84 trophies (or more than 10%) had their timestamps just a few seconds apart, then the total 100% completion time would be removed from the fastest results.

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5 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

True that.

 

there was a point in time where I was "No.1 Fastest 100%" in Cities Skylines - despite the fact that I took my sweet-ass time about the game, played in no way quickly or efficiently, and just fannyed around for the most part - but a dlc just happened to drop right as I was coming to the end of my playthrough.

 

That's changed now, as further dlc came out - but it's nonsense to think that I would have a snowballs chance in hell of even tickling the bottom of that fastest list with the way I played....

...so if I ended up at the top of it, you know there is something rotten in the state of Denmark 😂

Yeah great example is Payday 2 for PS4...if you look at the fastest times its possible to do it in about a week or 2 but you will noticed people have like months or even years for 100% due to dlc trophies releasing...

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Posted (edited)

22 hours ago, Elegy said:

It is somewhat irritating, but the fault lies more with Sony for allowing autopopping of trophies via save transfers.  Sony doesn't give any thought to statistics, valuation or competitiveness with regard to trophies.

 

Just do give you another point of view on this :)

 

A trophy/achievement is, simply put, just a way to prove that you achieved something.
And if I achieved a certain thing, I shouldn't have to do it again and prove again that I can achieve it, don't you think? I don't have to redo my High School diploma every time I change jobs, do I? (stupid analogy maybe, but I think you get my point)

If I reached Level 50 in Game X and got a trophy for that and then I play the game on the next console, why should I have to prove again that I'm able to play the game until Level 50 when I've already done so before? Just give me my token of proof immediately, since I already have proven it and you have the records (as in the "old" trophy) to check if I really did it.

 

That being said: Sony's fault - in respect to trophies, as it has certain advantages in other areas - is that they designed their system in the way that every version of a game counts as its own game with its own trophy list.

I would be OK with there being just one list for all the versions like it works on Xbox. That would remove auto-pop without forcing anyone to replay their trophies.

But if they continue using every version as its own game with its own trophy list (which, IMO, they will since the changes necessary are probably too big and complicated for the legacy stuff, etc.), then auto-pop needs to stay IMO. Because again: why redo stuff just because you changed platforms?

 

There's a reason Zenimax/Bethesda is getting shit for not allowing Auto-Pop on PS5 DOOM Eternal and TESO. Especially since loading your save game (which, in TESO, is your account) disables your ability to unlock trophies in the PS5 version if you already got them in the PS4 version and vice versa - unless, you really start from scratch again. For TESO, this means creating a new character and redoing literally hundreds of hours of gameplay. For DOOM, it means replaying the whole game again, collecting everything again, doing the whole multiplayer again... and all that, just because you want to play a "better" version of the game...
 

And this sucks especially if you want to switch versions during the course of your playthrough. For TESO, you could imagine someone buying a PS5 and maybe putting the PS4 in their bedroom. They then may want to be able to enjoy the game in both rooms at different times and want the trophy list to be synched between the versions. This is not the case right now and as I said, unlocking one trophy in one version disables you from getting it in the other version unless you replay everything.

And that's why, IMO, auto-pop not only needs to stay but should be mandatory for every cross-gen game release!

 

And all that being said: it annoys me that my THPS1&2 PS5 auto-pop is now my fastest platinum on my profile (1 second). :D 

Edited by Sicho
formatting and typos
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I don't know why they insist on seperate lists for ps4 and ps5 games when they allow save transferring for autopops

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Posted (edited)

16 minutes ago, MD_91 said:

I don't know why they insist on seperate lists for ps4 and ps5 games when they allow save transferring for autopops

 

It's because the information is separate for the different system's lists I think- the database is different, because the PS5 trophies are able to store more info - that's why PS5 trophies can do 'tracking' of stats that are visible to outside sources (like this site) etc.

In order to do that, I believe they had to make them separate from PS4 ones.

 

That's why no PS5 games share a list with any older system - and the primary reason why Auto Pop exists.

 

The reason for Auto-Pop was really - as I understand it - to encourage people to buy the PS4 versions of a game without having to worry that they might not have a 'trophy-friendly' 'upgrade-path' available to them.

To have them not just wait to buy any cross-get games until they had a PS5. 

 

Since PS5's are still tough to come by, developers were (rightly) spooked that people might just not bother getting PS4 version of their cross-gen games at all, and just wait until they got a PS5 to play them - potentially stifling sales for a long period - and they were right of course. It has been nearly a year, and it is still difficult for people to find a PS5.

 

As such, they created what they probably saw as a 'seamless' upgrade path - the trophies cannot be shared, as a result of the change in the back-end, BUT, with Autopop, it allows the user to play the PS4 version, knowing that - when they get a PS5, they can just switch over -  the trophies will auto-pop to 'catch them up' to where they currently are in the game, and they can carry on earning them, ignore the 'old, inferior' version ( and it's trophy list) but not be locked out of the platinum on the 'new, superior' version.

 

The intention was never for people to play a full platinum run on one system, then load up the fancy PS5 version the dev's slaved over and are likely the most proud of, for 90 seconds, auto-pop everything, them never play it again - that is just an unintended byproduct of the solution they put in place.

 

That's why, for example, PS5 to PS4 auto-pop is rarely ever a thing (unless it's simply down to server-side saves etc.) -

because the idea that someone would want to 'downgrade' was never considered by devs.

 

The problem is, their solution never really accounted for serious trophy-fiends.

To Devs, I'm sure the idea that someone would deliberately play only the inferior version - even if they do have access to a PS5, just to ensure they get 2 platinums out of it, most likely sounds ridiculous (and, lets face it, it kind of is....)

...but the solution they came up with to solve one sales problem, has definitely created a different one on the Trophy-Hunting side of things. :dunno:

Edited by DrBloodmoney
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Posted (edited)

33 minutes ago, Sicho said:

 

Just do give you another point of view on this :)

 

A trophy/achievement is, simply put, just a way to prove that you achieved something.
And if I achieved a certain thing, I shouldn't have to do it again and prove again that I can achieve it, don't you think? I don't have to redo my High School diploma every time I change jobs, do I? (stupid analogy maybe, but I think you get my point)

If I reached Level 50 in Game X and got a trophy for that and then I play the game on the next console, why should I have to prove again that I'm able to play the game until Level 50 when I've already done so before? Just give me my token of proof immediately, since I already have proven it and you have the records (as in the "old" trophy) to check if I really did it.

 

That being said: Sony's fault - in respect to trophies, as it has certain advantages in other areas - is that they designed their system in the way that every version of a game counts as its own game with its own trophy list.

I would be OK with there being just one list for all the versions like it works on Xbox. That would remove auto-pop without forcing anyone to replay their trophies.

But if they continue using every version as its own game with its own trophy list (which, IMO, they will since the changes necessary are probably too big and complicated for the legacy stuff, etc.), then auto-pop needs to stay IMO. Because again: why redo stuff just because you changed platforms?

 

I agree that there should only ever be one trophy list per game and no region/platform stacks.  The problem is that sometimes they change the trophies or content of the game which requires a new list.. or in the case of the PS5 they changed the trophy list feature entirely by allowing trophy tracking which ended up requiring all PS5 games to have a unique trophy list.

However, I do not agree that someone is entitled to every trophy of every stack if they have done the game once before and should never have to put any effort into it again.  Using a save file, even if it is your own, is considered cheating in all circumstances except where Sony and the developer of the game specifically supports it, which is a little funny to me.  I understand in the case of an online only game where your save is stored server side that there is no real way to get around the problem without autopop/retroactive completion, but I still think its a bad precedent to establish and should be mitigated as much as possible.  I don't like the concept that you can do something once and then just earn 2x, 3x or even 4x the trophies by just downloading another version and autopopping the list.

 

It also opens up a loophole to cheat PS5 games since you can resign a save on the PS4 then upload the save to later download on PS5 and autopop all the trophies on the PS5 version never having done the game on PS4.  Currently, PS5 game saves can't be saved on USB devices or anywhere other than the PS+ cloud so allowing a PS4 save to be imported into the PS5 version gets around this limitation.

Anyway, this is more of an aside to the original point of the thread.  Whether autopopping is a good thing or not doesn't really matter.  I personally consider it corner cutting and trophy list padding, but a lot of people obviously won't agree with me.

Edited by Elegy
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37 minutes ago, MD_91 said:

I don't know why they insist on seperate lists for ps4 and ps5 games when they allow save transferring for autopops

Encourages certain people to drop the cash on a second version, doesn’t it

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45 minutes ago, MD_91 said:

I don't know why they insist on seperate lists for ps4 and ps5 games when they allow save transferring for autopops

you can ask the same thing about region stacking of a game on the same console...

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12 minutes ago, BGriff1986 said:

Encourages certain people to drop the cash on a second version, doesn’t it

Most PS4 games come with free upgrades to PS5 

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I don't fault people for wanting to play both version of a game and if it auto pops because its saved server side than so be it.  I have a ps5 in my living room and a ps4 in my bedroom sometimes i want to go to the bedroom and continue where i left off and I'll be damned if I'm not going to do that because some asshat that probably stacks ratalaka games all day might not like my profile.  I paid for two consoles and the game I'll play it how ever the hell I want.  With that said i hate that sony has this two list system.  I'd much prefer it didn't auto pop but if you can't help it so be it.

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