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Psychonauts 2 features an invincibility mode that won't disable achievements/trophies


Killbomb

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3 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

Can really break down what you said to this, and I think Deadly Ha Ha sums it up well. We're not talking about playing a game or enjoying it, or about if what others do diminish what I do etc. We're talking about the trophies. What kind of a challenge does the trophies represent having completed?

You've played shit loads of easy games and you've played a bunch of hard games. I don't see what the issue with this one game is. You were gonna plat this one game regardless if it was easy or "hard" (which lets be honest, this game was never going to be) and then it was going to be lost in your crowd of other plats to move on to other games and probably never return.

You can let this news effect how you will play the game, personally I will not.

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18 minutes ago, Killbomb said:

 

Don't lock them out of finishing the game, sure, but the Platinum trophy is another story. Not everybody is going to be able to do everything and some can't accept that. I know I will never get the Mein Leben trophy in New Colossus, Platinum Super Meat Boy, Crypt of the Necrodancer, etc. and I'm fine with it.  

You can likely still achieve all those things with practice (unless you have an actual disability in which case I'm sorry for the assumption) but try finishing Everybody's Gone to the Rapture if you're deaf for instance. One stupid Trophy that has nothing to do with sound, but that only registers with a small audio feedback. An accessibility option of translating that audio feedback into a subtitle would make that achievable.

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20 minutes ago, mcnichoj said:

You've played shit loads of easy games and you've played a bunch of hard games. I don't see what the issue with this one game is. You were gonna plat this one game regardless if it was easy or "hard" (which lets be honest, this game was never going to be) and then it was going to be lost in your crowd of other plats to move on to other games and probably never return.

You can let this news effect how you will play the game, personally I will not.

 

As for my trophies, that is beside the point, and don't get fooled by the rarity %, it's often misleading. I focus a lot on obscure.

 

I'm not even gonna play the game. I didn't like the first game.

 

I'm not talking about this game either, I'm talking in general. I do actually care in the case of FFIX, and they could have fixed the reset time exploit there. The timer does actually keep on counting, as the time played changes color.

 

Also, we're not talking about the games or accessibility, we're talking about trophies and diminishing the challenges by offering easier paths to accomplishing them. Accessibility doesn't need to do this.

 

I honestly think people got some strange view on what accessibility means. It doesn't mean make something easier, it means to make it so everyone can participate on the same terms.

 

Example: if the controls are difficult to use for someone due to some disability, you add the option so they can customize the controls, or allow other types of input devices to be used etc.

 

Example of what accessibility is not: some people find the trophies to be too difficult, so you allow them to be earned using invincibility cheat.

Edited by MMDE
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I can understand both points of view. On one hand, games being more accessible to all gamers is obviously amazing and it's great to see more developers working towards making this possible. On the other hand, I can see why some people are upset because it lowers the difficulty/challenge of trophies if suddenly all games start to come with invincibility modes and whatnot. How do you keep one group happy without alienating the other? If a game is made with the intention of being accessible to all gamers, then that should definitely include the ability to earn the trophies, or at least make it easier to do so. You can't start excluding certain things because it defeats the entire purpose.

 

You could say that trophy hunters can still complete a game on higher difficulties, they can still play without using accessibility options etc. they don't need a trophy as an incentive to do so, and while I agree somewhat with that sentiment, it doesn't really solve the issue for those people either. Some people like challenging trophy lists and they like having a trophy to show what they've achieved. If all big games start shipping with trophy lists that only cover the mere basics, and if the trophies all become super common due to people cheesing accessibility options, then I imagine that will defeat the purpose for those people too. 

 

It's a tricky situation to be honest and I'm not sure what the best compromise could be. I guess you could look at it with the point of view of what's more important; keeping a small niche of gamers happy or opening your game up to a wider audience who may not have been able to play your game otherwise? Personally I'm on the side of accessibility being more important than trophies, but I can at least understand that some people will be upset by what they perceive to be nerfed trophy lists. I do believe that going forward we will see all of the big titles launching with accessibility in mind which means that trophies will inevitably be affected by this too. However, I think there will always be a large amount of challenging games with challenging trophy lists out there too, so it's not the end of the world either. I think if you want a challenge, you'll still be able to find one but as far as big titles go, just play it how you normally would, get your platinum and move on, because I don't think there's any other solution to be honest.

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55 minutes ago, Cleggworth said:

I think people aren't really understanding what accessibility options are here.... They aren't cheats to make a game easier. They are allowing a whole group of people to feel included and participate in a hobby they love, playing games AND trophy hunting. Any one of you could wake up tomorrow and something could happen that means you can barely hold a controller. With these options you will still be able to play games and earn trophies. I mean seriously.... its like some of you expect the disabled to just sit in a corner ?‍♂️

If I was suddenly that crippled gaming would be the last thing on my mind.

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14 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

As for my trophies, that is beside the point, and don't get fooled by the rarity %, it's often misleading. I focus a lot on obscure.

 

I'm not even gonna play the game. I didn't like the first game.

 

Also, we're not talking about the games or accessibility, we're talking about trophies and diminishing the challenges by offering easier paths to accomplishing them. Accessibility doesn't need to do this.

Your trophies aren't besides the point and just for the record I wasn't attacking you over them.

 

If you weren't gonna play the game then this thread really shouldn't have interested you. Or do you go to every kids game thread and complain about how those are easy plats? You could argue "well those games are meant for kids". Since when do kids need to be coddled in video games? I grew up on things like Battletoads as a kid. That's light years harder than plenty of games today.

 

I was never talking about accessibility either. My stance has always been "games are games, just play 'em... Or don't, who cares". I just mentioned Battletoads, not every game needs to be Battletoads. Some games can be easy or have easy difficulties. Just so people know I've also been technically on the opposite side of this argument and have defended games with only hard difficulty modes. I had a friend complain about Nioh and I've been in multiple threads/chat rooms on various sites about Cuphead. The devs wanted those games to be hard, so git gud. This game is gonna be extra easy, so git ova it.

 

7 minutes ago, ShadeSplit said:

It's funny how so many people still claim "no one cares" about trophies and that they're "meaningless" (see the reddit thread on this subject), but when someone recommends such options/cheats disable trophies, all of a sudden trophies become important and everyone needs to be able to earn them.

I don't care either way. GTA is one of the few off the top of my head where cheats disable trophies. Fine, that's what the devs decided to do. I'll use the same argument for people complaining about this as if they were to complain about GTA or another game being too hard; don't like it? Don't play it. It's one game, move on.

People do sure get really happy on this site though when they can utilize some exploit that makes a very difficult trophy basically trivial busy work.

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If this allows more people to enjoy the game, then I'm all for it.

 

And as for achievements/trophies still being able to be unlocked, I can understand why someone might be irritated knowing they got all the achievements/trophies on the "normal" or "harder" difficultly, whereas someone else played the game in invincibility mode and got all the same achievements they did, with presumably less time and effort involved.

 

But then, you really have to ask yourself why you spent the time getting those achievements in the first place. You should arguably be doing it for yourself, for your own enjoyment and sense of achievement. Not to show off how much "better" your are than others for having 100%ed the game.

 

Either way, I'm still looking forward to this game. My main concern is if it's getting a physical for PS4 or not currently.

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16 minutes ago, mcnichoj said:

Your trophies aren't besides the point and just for the record I wasn't attacking you over them.

 

If you weren't gonna play the game then this thread really shouldn't have interested you. Or do you go to every kids game thread and complain about how those are easy plats? You could argue "well those games are meant for kids". Since when do kids need to be coddled in video games? I grew up on things like Battletoads as a kid. That's light years harder than plenty of games today.

 

I was never talking about accessibility either. My stance has always been "games are games, just play 'em... Or don't, who cares". I just mentioned Battletoads, not every game needs to be Battletoads. Some games can be easy or have easy difficulties. Just so people know I've also been technically on the opposite side of this argument and have defended games with only hard difficulty modes. I had a friend complain about Nioh and I've been in multiple threads/chat rooms on various sites about Cuphead. The devs wanted those games to be hard, so git gud. This game is gonna be extra easy, so git ova it.

 

I don't care either way. GTA is one of the few off the top of my head where cheats disable trophies. Fine, that's what the devs decided to do. I'll use the same argument for people complaining about this as if they were to complain about GTA or another game being too hard; don't like it? Don't play it. It's one game, move on.

People do sure get really happy on this site though when they can utilize some exploit that makes a very difficult trophy basically trivial busy work.

 

This is a kids game (PEGI 12, so certainly not for young kids)? And that somehow matters how?

 

If I'm going to play the game or not is beside any point here.

 

Nobody is talking about every game needing to be Battletoads or difficult. Nobody.

 

We're not even talking about the game.

 

What I'm specifically talking about is if some of the trophy's value is diminished when you add options to make it easier etc. Of course it is.

 

Let's talk about Battletoads. Imagine if they remade it with trophies, and then to make it so everyone could finish the game, they allowed you to use cheats, and the cheats didn't disable the trophies. The trophies would be valued more if the cheats disabled the trophies.

Edited by MMDE
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Great that the game is inclusive to those with disabilities. 

 

Not great that this game is not inclusive to those who want to be challenged and earn a trophy that shows that they have overcome this challenge (the developer is even mocking these people in the post, and that is somehow ok?). 

 

Perhaps a solution could be to make some trophies unlockable using the accessibility options, and some locked behind a difficult challenge such as Hard Mode without allowing for accessibility options. Just like we have The Olympics and Paralympics in the real world. 

 

I liked the first game, and was looking forward to this one, but that twitter post of the developer kind of rubbed me the wrong way. 

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Oh no!

 

A game in which enemy encounter difficulty was never going to be a factor, will not feature a trophy list affected by enemy encounter difficulty! ?

 

I, for one, am outraged!

 

I have not felt this angry since finding out the new Ratchet and Clank would not have an Iron Man Mode.

 

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Whenever anyone argues about trophies being disabled or not, the actual argument is about rankings: personal rankings, smaller community rankings, leaderboards.  It's comparing yourself to someone else, or a bunch of someone else's, that molds these opinions.  My main gripe about leaderboards, actually.  Too many people use them to attempt to restrict casual gamers from playing and popping trophies.

 

I don't agree with any opinion that results in snobbery or less accessibility to games.  Whatever nets the developer of Psychonauts 2 more moola (assuming the game is made well) is good enough for me.  More moola means more good games.

 

Also, it's hilarious to read posts like this and posts about Grounded mode, or Nightmare difficulty.  People love to bitch, I guess.

Edited by IntroPhenom
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9 minutes ago, MMDE said:

The trophies would be valued more if the cheats disabled the trophies.

Value to WHO?

 

1 minute ago, SkippiesBar said:

Great that the game is inclusive to those with disabilities. 

 

Not great that this game is not inclusive to those who want to be challenged and earn a trophy that shows that they have overcome this challenge (the developer is even mocking these people in the post, and that is somehow ok?). 

 

Perhaps a solution could be to make some trophies unlockable using the accessibility options, and some locked behind a difficult challenge such as Hard Mode without allowing for accessibility options. Just like we have The Olympics and Paralympics in the real world. 

 

I liked the first game, and was looking forward to this one, but that twitter post of the developer kind of rubbed me the wrong way. 

What's stopping you from playing the Ninja Gaiden games if you want difficult plats?

If you want to do a no hit run or speed run, what's stopping you? You don't need a trophy to do those things. Most of the popular games people do those things in were before the Xbox 360/PS3 even existed.

 

Actually, speed runs and trophies have something in common. Anyone in the class want to guess. Bueller? Bueller?

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14 minutes ago, mcnichoj said:

I don't care either way. GTA is one of the few off the top of my head where cheats disable trophies. Fine, that's what the devs decided to do. I'll use the same argument for people complaining about this as if they were to complain about GTA or another game being too hard; don't like it? Don't play it. It's one game, move on.

People do sure get really happy on this site though when they can utilize some exploit that makes a very difficult trophy basically trivial busy work.

 

Are they the same people though? Because I've seen people giving the conflicting messages I mentioned in my post.

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Just now, IntroPhenom said:

 

Far too subjective to claim any real value.

 

Instead of arguing on the merit, we've now come to the dead end of arguing what most people who care about trophies value is far too subjective to claim any real value...

 

In either case, can I take this as an admission that, if the premise is accepted, my argument is sound? Because then I feel like I've made my point.

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2 minutes ago, mcnichoj said:

Value to WHO?

 

What's stopping you from playing the Ninja Gaiden games if you want difficult plats?

If you want to do a no hit run or speed run, what's stopping you? You don't need a trophy to do those things. Most of the popular games people do those things in were before the Xbox 360/PS3 even existed.

 

Actually, speed runs and trophies have something in common. Anyone in the class want to guess. Bueller? Bueller?

 

I am not interested in playing Ninja Gaiden, but I am interested in playing Psychonauts 2. I also very much enjoy trophies/achievements, especially those that accurately reflect the accomplishments that I have made in the games that I enjoy, and those that encourages me to replay the game in different ways and on higher difficulties. 

 

In this case, I do not agree with the developer's vision for the trophies, which is ok, it's their game. However, It rubs me the wrong way that they mock/ridicule those who do not agree with their vision. Hence, I am expressing my disappointment. 

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1 minute ago, MMDE said:

 

Instead of arguing on the merit, we've now come to the dead end of arguing what most people who care about trophies value is far too subjective to claim any real value...

 

In either case, can I take this as an admission that, if the premise is accepted, my argument is sound? Because then I feel like I've made my point.

 

I suppose my point was that trophies have no real value outside of their point denomination.  Perceived value is what we're talking about.

 

I'm not dismissing how important video games are to some, or even that leaderboards can be a personal goal and drive ambition.  My concern is that someone who gets caught up in any potential 'diminished' trophy value nonsense (my two cents) may not play a game because of it, and that would be the real loss.

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1 minute ago, MMDE said:

 

most trophy hunters

I dunno. I see more activity in threads about exploits than I do threads about playing the the normal way.

The Uncharted Collection is a good example of this. I bet the vast majority of people "cheated" to get Brutal done.

 

1 minute ago, SkippiesBar said:

 

However, It rubs me the wrong way that they mock/ridicule those who do not agree with their vision. Hence, I am expressing my disappointment. 

Honestly it's better than the opposite where devs show disdain for trophy hunters and either say they'll ban them or out right make trophies that will annoy them. (COUGHFallGuysCOUGH)

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1 minute ago, mcnichoj said:

Honestly it's better than the opposite where devs show disdain for trophy hunters and either say they'll ban them or out right make trophies that will annoy them. (COUGHFallGuysCOUGH)

 

The community manager made a clear joke and the vast majority of trophy hunters got upset. I thought it was hilarious and the trophy was a challenge. They've certainly made good on their promise to make the trophy easier (even discounting all the exploits that made the trophy a joke). 

 

Modern day trophy hunters are terrified of a challenge and it shows. 

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3 hours ago, Infected Elite said:

example: i plat Control ps4 no problem. it wasnt easy. But you best believe on ps5 im gonna use one hit kill/no damage taken cheats and just rush. If i ever get around to it that is lol

 

I wouldn't recommend it. I played 30 minutes or so of it with cheats on, and it was so lifeless and boring. After I disabled them, it was like waking up from a coma and I had a lot of fun again. I couldn't imagine doing a full playthrough like that, especially if it was my 2nd one where I already knew the story and game world.

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1 minute ago, ThatMuttGuy said:

 

The community manager made a clear joke and the vast majority of trophy hunters got upset. I thought it was hilarious and the trophy was a challenge. They've certainly made good on their promise to make the trophy easier (even discounting all the exploits that made the trophy a joke). 

 

Modern day trophy hunters are terrified of a challenge and it shows. 

Honestly I think the trend started from the get go.

Back in the day I saw a lot of things like "if it has multiplayer trophies, no buy".

A lot of first party games were fairly easy.

 

The issue with modern day hunting isn't the players, it's the companies that want $$$.

 

Companies that can't make quality games stick a "free" plat in their shovelware and sell it for a few bucks just to call it a day.

 

A lot of Microsoft games as of late have been really easy. These were the people that had the dreaded "collect 300 orbs" achievement in Crackdown 1. Now plenty of their games can be completed after a casual week of play. What is Psychonauts 2 essentially? Answer: A MS game. The game is gonna be in GamePass. They want people to play it for the easy achievements or people to get into collecting achievements.

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