Psychonauts 2 features an invincibility mode that won't disable achievements/trophies

[ArabianSwordsman]

1 hour ago, EverythingOnFire said:

 

I wouldn't recommend it. I played 30 minutes or so of it with cheats on, and it was so lifeless and boring. After I disabled them, it was like waking up from a coma and I had a lot of fun again. I couldn't imagine doing a full playthrough like that, especially if it was my 2nd one where I already knew the story and game world.

I had the complete opposite experience. I got the PS4 plat no cheats and had a fairly miserable time (not difficulty just didn’t really enjoy the game/it was extremely buggy). Once I used the god mode in the upgraded version I had sooo much because it’s not often you get to be this unkillable beast in video games. Same with The Evil Within 2. I see why people aren’t a fan of using accessibility for trophies but for me personally it helps me enjoy the game more and have an overall better time. 
 

As for psychonauts, I think fans of the series will have fun without the mode and trophy hunters will have fun with it. Both parties get to the same destination just with different paths, ya know? 

[sepheroithisgod]

I'm definitely mixed on accessibility options.

 

I do want gaming to be accessible to everyone, but that doesn't mean trophies necessarily should as well. I don't think trophies should be unlockable with those settings enabled. It would be like strapping rockets to a wheelchair in the Olympics for a sprinting event.

 

I do acknowledge no one is forcing you to use them, but we all know people will abuse these settings as they do with EZPZ games to inflate stats. Thus, it ends up impacting people whether they use them or not.

[MidnightDragon]

Think this is dumb to complain about. Don’t use it if you don’t want to!

[EverythingOnFire]

52 minutes ago, ArabianSwordsman said:

I had the complete opposite experience. I got the PS4 plat no cheats and had a fairly miserable time (not difficulty just didn’t really enjoy the game/it was extremely buggy).

 

I can definitely relate. I avoided the PS4 version for that very reason, and then still had a lot of technical problems on PC, which definitely soured my overall experience. There were a few bugs that made progression impossible and required restarts (one of them happened because I cleared out a room of enemies too quickly, so I got punished for getting gud), but the biggest BS I had to put up with were insanely long load times....

 

At the beginning of each game startup, you get a screen allowing you to choose between using DirectX 11 or DirectX 12. It recommended that most players use DX11. I use a GTX 1060 graphics card, which is the bare minimum card for DX12. I assumed that the game would run better for me using DX11, so that's what I went with. Turns out that by choosing DX11, my load times were literally 10x longer than they should have been due to some communication bug. Loads that should have taken 10 seconds ending up taking 90. I didn't figure out what was going on til I was 2/3rds done with the game. Totally killed any and all possible immersion I could have had.

 

I liked the game overall (the Alan Wake stuff definitely helped), but I'm still clueless as to how it scored so well due to all the performance issues across every platform.

[Infected Elite]

11 hours ago, EverythingOnFire said:

 

I wouldn't recommend it. I played 30 minutes or so of it with cheats on, and it was so lifeless and boring. After I disabled them, it was like waking up from a coma and I had a lot of fun again. I couldn't imagine doing a full playthrough like that, especially if it was my 2nd one where I already knew the story and game world.

 

The game is short. Can plat in 18hrs or so. The game wasn't as great as people make it seem to begin with, the quicker i can do a 2nd run the better... but i also haven't done it yet because its boring lol

[mcnichoj]

7 hours ago, MidnightDragon said:

Think this is dumb to complain about. Don’t use it if you don’t want to!

iT'S NoT AbOuT Me nOt wAnTiNg tO UsE It, It's aBoUt mE NoT WaNtInG YoU To uSe iT

[EverythingOnFire]

1 hour ago, Infected Elite said:

The game is short. Can plat in 18hrs or so. The game wasn't as great as people make it seem to begin with, the quicker i can do a 2nd run the better... but i also haven't done it yet because its boring lol

 

I couldn't plat it that quickly if my life depended on it. With The Foundation + AWE, I spent at least 40 hours with it. My play-style is pretty aimless though, and I don't follow guides on a first playthrough. I'm also just not that good at most games TBH.

 

I agree that the game is overrated BTW. It was fine, and I don't regret my time with it, but the gunplay lacked punch, and most of the characters and locations are just so bland. When you take the developer + the subject matter into account, it's crazy that it was as uninteresting as it was.

[RedDevil757]

16 hours ago, mcnichoj said:

Someone can get 50 plats in a day from a bunch of $2 digital games or $10 VN's when on sale. Who cares. Play the games that make you happy.

And that's one of the main reasons I stopped hunting. There's no value to them anymore. It's just another worthless thing.

 

There was a time when you'd have to master a game to get its plat. Now days it's quickly becoming participation plats.
 

Well done you started the game! Here's a platinum. Plus buy our other 10 stacks for more plats

18 hours ago, ScooloV said:

Latest Ratchet and Clank on PS5 also has invincibility against enemies on lowest difficulty and everyone is ok with that.

That game is insultingly easy even on hard. It was the only negative i had for the game. It was void of any and all challenge just to make it more accessible.

[DrBloodmoney]

Every time a game features trophy-enabled Accessibility options, a certain contingent of this community gets up in arms about the ‘sanctity of skill-based trophies’…

 

…yet no one seems to bat an eyelid when games without such settings have:

• trophy guides
• collectible walkthroughs
• discussions of cheesable exploits
• video guides of bosses
• advice on where to make manual saves to reduce numbers of playthroughs
• instructions on how to save-scum
• locations of best weapons
• level-skips
• in-game difficulty exploits
• debug menu access
• methods to 'roll-back' to previous versions to abuse glitches
• advice where not to update games for easier trophy requirements
• etc. etc. etc.

 

It seems to me that these arguments have little if anything to do with wanting ‘skill’ to be a factor, and everything to do with simple ‘preservation of exclusivity’.

 

Trophy Hunters don’t want trophies to be ‘skill-based’ - they just want trophies to be out of reach to those not willing to research the same information they are, use the same exploits they will, and jump through the same hoops they do. 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[Sikutai]

On 13.7.2021 at 9:46 AM, Killbomb said:

 

I am fine with an invincibility mode making a game more accessible but it should disable trophies. Thoughts?

 

But then precisely those would be punished who really need it.

 

I also like to use this feature who is not dependent on it. So in Ghost of Tsushima I activated this feature for these collectibles where you have to press the correct buttons under time pressure. That made my life easier.

 

I would love to see features like this in online racing games in the future. I couldn't win a single online game in Gran Turismo. Because I'm disadvantaged because of my age, lack of reflexes and such. You could do it in such a way that the cars of the slower or worse players in online games drive faster and can no longer slip away as quickly in curves.

 

Edit: I'm currently playing Call of Duty and the youngsters are always much better than me. I would like an accessibility feature for people who are disadvantaged by their age in Call of Duty.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Sikutai

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Infected Elite said:

 

The game is short. Can plat in 18hrs or so. The game wasn't as great as people make it seem to begin with, the quicker i can do a 2nd run the better... but i also haven't done it yet because its boring lol

You played the worst version possible, the ps5 version is vastly superior - which counts for a lot in the fun. The combat in this game is quite different imo.

11 minutes ago, Sikutai said:

 

But then precisely those would be punished who really need it.

 

I also like to use this feature who is not dependent on it. So in Ghost of Tsushima I activated this feature for these collectibles where you have to press buttons under time pressure. That made my life easier.

 

I would love to see features like this in online racing games in the future. I couldn't win a single online game in Gran Turismo. Because I'm disadvantaged because of my age, lack of reflexes and such. You could do it in such a way that the cars of the slower or worse players in online games drive faster and can no longer slip away as quickly in curves.

something similar happened in mod nation racers, the last ones were faster than the first places. it was quite difficult to stay in first.

[Infected Elite]

7 minutes ago, kevao97 said:

You played the worst version possible, the ps5 version is vastly superior - which counts for a lot in the fun. The combat in this game is quite different imo.

something similar happened in mod nation racers, the last ones were faster than the first places. it was quite difficult to stay in first.

 

eh maybe. But still, story was kinda a mess. Didnt do DLC. if i do play it ill rush it. What pissed me off was i bought it on-sale for $10 at local store. Next day its announced for ps5 and i already had started. Like ugh. 

[MD_91]

Can't speak specifically for this game as the trophy list isn't out but if a dev wants to make getting all the trophies for their game "more accessible" that's fine I would say just don't include difficulty specific based trophies then, trophies like beating the last of us 2 on grounded just seem redundant to include when it can be done with every assist turned on

[SkippiesBar]

Just to broaden the discussion a bit, and please try to keep the discussion civil. My point is not to gatekeep games or flex any skills. I simply want to see if we can find common ground on what we might perceive as fair practice for trophies going forward. 

 

It seems like most people here welcome that all trophies in this game should be unlockable with accessibility options enabled (a point that I disagree with as I think there could be 1 gold trophy for beating it with those options and 1 gold trophy for beating it without those options). Three questions:

 

1. Is this something you would consider for only a certain type of games (such as all AAA titles?), or would you like this to be implemented in every game?

 

2. If you want it in every game, the result would be that every trophy can be unlocked very easily using these options even for those who do not need this help. Do you believe this might have any negative impact on trophies in general or is the impact only positive?

 

3. What, in your opinion, is the purpose of having trophies/achievements?

 

 

[SkippiesBar]

6 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Every time a game features trophy-enabled Accessibility options, a certain contingent of this community gets up in arms about the ‘sanctity of skill-based trophies’…

 

…yet no one seems to bat an eyelid when games without such settings have:

• trophy guides
• collectible walkthroughs
• discussions of cheesable exploits
• video guides of bosses
• advice on where to make manual saves to reduce numbers of playthroughs
• instructions on how to save-scum
• locations of best weapons
• level-skips
• in-game difficulty exploits
• debug menu access
• methods to 'roll-back' to previous versions to abuse glitches
• advice where not to update games for easier trophy requirements
• etc. etc. etc.

 

It seems to me that these arguments have little if anything to do with wanting ‘skill’ to be a factor, and everything to do with simple ‘preservation of exclusivity’.

 

Trophy Hunters don’t want trophies to be ‘skill-based’ - they just want trophies to be out of reach to those not willing to research the same information they are, use the same exploits they will, and jump through the same hoops they do. 

 

 

 

 

You have a good point. I do agree with you that if someone uses things like debug menu access to auto pop trophies and then complains about accessibility options, they contradict themselves. 

 

With that said, I also believe that those who use debug menu access and/or skips that affect a significant part of the game etc. are not necessarily the same people as those who complain about some trophies being too easy (there may of course be some overlap and in those cases your argument holds). And even if they are, they may hold different games to different standards (i.e. not care if a random ratalaika game is easy but want a challenge with attached reward from a game that they have anticipated for a long time)

 

As for video guides, walkthroughs etc. I think those are a bit different. If you look at a challenge there are two parts to it, one is setting up the strategy and the other is executing the strategy. Some people might enjoy the former more and may go out of their way to find new methods to overcome difficult challenges, while others may enjoy the latter more and research ways to play the game and then execute upon what they have researched to the best of their abilities. Both can be challenging, and those who check video guides might enjoy executing good gameplay to overcome challenges more than setting up the strategy itself. On top of this, people can find joy in overcoming difficult challenges as a community. 

 

These are different from there being no challenge in the first place. 

 

The counter argument often seems to be that those who are proponents of difficult trophies are so because they want preserve exclusivity. While there certainly is a subset of people who think this way, a lot of people don't. To me trophies are incentives to play the game in a certain ways that motivate you to try something different. Myself and many others like to be rewarded for their efforts, and a trophy is a fun reward for overcoming challenges. Hence, I think there can be separate trophies for different types of challenges (such as one per difficulty level). This way, we include both those not able to play on higher difficulties and those who want a challenge and a reward for overcoming that challenge. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by SkippiesBar

[DrBloodmoney]

1 hour ago, SkippiesBar said:

 

You have a good point. I do agree with you that if someone uses things like debug menu access to auto pop trophies and then complains about accessibility options, they contradict themselves. 

 

With that said, I also believe that those who use debug menu access and/or skips that affect a significant part of the game etc. are not necessarily the same people as those who complain about some trophies being too easy (there may of course be some overlap and in those cases your argument holds). And even if they are, they may hold different games to different standards (i.e. not care if a random ratalaika game is easy but want a challenge with attached reward from a game that they have anticipated for a long time)

 

As for video guides, walkthroughs etc. I think those are a bit different. If you look at a challenge there are two parts to it, one is setting up the strategy and the other is executing the strategy. Some people might enjoy the former more and may go out of their way to find new methods to overcome difficult challenges, while others may enjoy the latter more and research ways to play the game and then execute upon what they have researched to the best of their abilities. Both can be challenging, and those who check video guides might enjoy executing good gameplay to overcome challenges more than setting up the strategy itself. On top of this, people can find joy in overcoming difficult challenges as a community. 

 

These are different from there being no challenge in the first place. 

 

The counter argument often seems to be that those who are proponents of difficult trophies are so because they want preserve exclusivity. While there certainly is a subset of people who think this way, a lot of people don't. To me trophies are incentives to play the game in a certain ways that motivate you to try something different. Myself and many others like to be rewarded for their efforts, and a trophy is a fun reward for overcoming challenges. Hence, I think there can be separate trophies for different types of challenges (such as one per difficulty level). This way, we include both those not able to play on higher difficulties and those who want a challenge and a reward for overcoming that challenge. 

 

All true - and not an objectionable point of view in your entire post mate - so be assured, none of what I'm about to say is necessarily directed pointedly at you - but I just think some of these arguments against that are getting brought up here, (and in some other threads - especially the Ratchet and Clank A Rift Apart one,) are blowing these things out of proportion.

 

The fact is, very few games are really affected by these kind of implementations, and realistically - so far at least - the 'outraged' takes about them have been in threads about games where the challenge was never really there in the first place.

 

In the case of Psychonauts that game (the first one at least,) was never about difficulty - it just wasn't that kind of game. Period.

Dying in that game was just a pain - the story was the meat of the game, and I'm sure it will be here too. No trophy hunter who was trying to get the platinum was blocked by the difficulty of that game.  It was just due to collectibles and missable - which can be entirely alleviated with a collectibles guide - and no one is decrying the existence of those as "Demeaning or debasing the trophy hunting hobby."

 

The outrage over the new Ratchet and Clank game was pretty ridiculous for the same reasons.

Yes, the list was simplified as compared to previous R&C games...

...but as anyone who played it would know - so was the game.

The fact is, even a completely normal, non-completionist playthrough would still net like 90% of the 'secrets' in that game anyway - it certainly did for me, and that was without even trying - so really, what difference does the simplicity of the trophy list make?

The fact is, aside from great visuals, the game is less long, less interesting, less fun, less varied, and less able to support repeated plays than almost all previous games in the series anyways, with or without a trophy list.

The game was what was simplified, the trophy list just followed suit. 

 

 

 

I can at least sort of understand the argument with something like The Last of Us II and Control -  but frankly, it's a different case with those.

 

Those 'cheats' are not cheats.  They are accessibility options, and have to be switched through a separate menu.

I know some people on here like to act like Accessibility options and 'cheats' are one and the same thing, and that the difference is just semantic, but it isn't. 

 

The idea that some folks would rather have no provision for differently-abled or nuero-diverse gamers to be able to play games (and have access to all aspects of the console and the game they purchased - including trophies), than accept that some of their precious rarity values might drop, as a result of other gamers who lack the self-moderation or impulse-control to avoid abusing those provisions to get easy trophies, is abhorrent to me.

 

The argument is basically "Let's get rid of wheel-chairs, because some folks who can walk fine might use them."

 

It's an argument rendered even more ridiculous by the things I mentioned in my post - essentially what those gamers are saying is "We can use whatever methods we want to make the challenge easier for us - but we don't want to just have an in-game option to make it easier for other people who actually require one - even if all it is designed to do is level the playing field for those at a natural disadvantage through no fault of their own... because that makes it too accessible"

 

It's just not an argument I can get behind at all.

 

Inclusion is important.

The rarity of a bunch of trophies just isn't.

 

Also - the fact is - there are plenty of supremely challenging games out there - more than anyone could feasibly run out of in a gaming lifetime.

 

There are games for everyone. Easy ones, hard ones, good ones, bad ones and everything in-between.

 

The big 'AAA' releases and the family friendly fare - the stuff with broad cross-generational and cross-cultural appeal - that is the stuff that should be accessible to everyone. 

 

The niche stuff that actually sells itself on difficulty - the Rogue-likes and Souls-likes, the Devil May Cry's and the Super Meat Boy's and whatnot - they are still there. They aren't going away, (if anything, they are in a golden age right now,) and they mostly don't have accessibility options... 

And even if they did?

So what?

Just don't use them!

 

They are needed for some - and available to all - but that doesn't mean they have to use them.

 

Wheel-chairs, access ramps and motorised stair-lifts are available to everyone too - it doesn't mean they need to rush out and install them all in their house... then complain when they feel they aren't getting enough exercise.

 

Bed Pans are available for free to anyone who want's to take them from the pharmacy...

... I'll still be using the toilet as long as I'm able though... 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[Dreakon13]

Love the idea of accessibility features that make the whole game playable for people who need it.

 

That being said, some people have really dug their heels in on high-roading anyone who tries to claim trophies could possibly mean anything more than personal satisfaction.  Trophies are inherently a competitive concept.  In any other event, the people who get them achieved something specific that someone else hasn't.  If everyone gets a trophy, or rules are put in place where everyone can, it devalues it.  Period.  It doesn't mean the same thing it did before.  Whether you think it should or not, being the only person with a trophy means more than a thousand other people getting the same trophy.

 

In a perfect world... I guess the people who actually earned it, sitting on the top of the pile, should just be good spirited and happy for everyone else and satisfied with their personal accomplishment... but it's not a perfect world, and as unhealthy as "not being good spirited" is, it's also unhealthy to cover your ears and la-la-la over how the world (and trophies) really work for a lot of people who care about them.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Dreakon13

[mcnichoj]

4 hours ago, MD_91 said:

Can't speak specifically for this game as the trophy list isn't out but if a dev wants to make getting all the trophies for their game "more accessible" that's fine I would say just don't include difficulty specific based trophies then, trophies like beating the last of us 2 on grounded just seem redundant to include when it can be done with every assist turned on

Like I said previously, trivial busy work.

 

1 hour ago, SkippiesBar said:

1. Is this something you would consider for only a certain type of games (such as all AAA titles?), or would you like this to be implemented in every game?

 

2. If you want it in every game, the result would be that every trophy can be unlocked very easily using these options even for those who do not need this help. Do you believe this might have any negative impact on trophies in general or is the impact only positive?

 

3. What, in your opinion, is the purpose of having trophies/achievements?

1. Yeah, games that developers say they want them in.

 

2. I don't want it in every game. Some developers make intentionally hard games, that's apart of the experience. What this game is doing as with any other game will have no impact on the various hunting communities. The only people that will have an impact are the people that run the platforms these communities play on. i.e. Sony, Microsoft and Steam.

Steam quickly showed why MS had the restrictive rules that they do for their achievements when a bunch of shovelware that automatically upon startup gives you thousands of achievements, start to flood their service.

MS negatively effected their community when they made their achievements tied to a server to unlock them. Singleplayer achievements included. Problems with the Xbox Live service due to a new highly anticipated game coming out and everyone trying to play it? You might miss some achievements despite playing online.

I personally haven't experienced it but I hear others are having issues unlocking trophies properly on PS5. Not sure if an OS issue or a PSN issue, it shouldn't be a thing either way. People get upset over the shovelware super easy/quick plats, well it's Sony's fault for allowing the developers to release these types of games.

 

3. Fun and a way to track others progress.

[RedDevil757]

7 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Every time a game features trophy-enabled Accessibility options, a certain contingent of this community gets up in arms about the ‘sanctity of skill-based trophies’…

 

…yet no one seems to bat an eyelid when games without such settings have:

• trophy guides
• collectible walkthroughs
• discussions of cheesable exploits
• video guides of bosses
• advice on where to make manual saves to reduce numbers of playthroughs
• instructions on how to save-scum
• locations of best weapons
• level-skips
• in-game difficulty exploits
• debug menu access
• methods to 'roll-back' to previous versions to abuse glitches
• advice where not to update games for easier trophy requirements
• etc. etc. etc.

 

It seems to me that these arguments have little if anything to do with wanting ‘skill’ to be a factor, and everything to do with simple ‘preservation of exclusivity’.

 

Trophy Hunters don’t want trophies to be ‘skill-based’ - they just want trophies to be out of reach to those not willing to research the same information they are, use the same exploits they will, and jump through the same hoops they do. 

 

 

 

You're generalising abit there.

 

Some of us used trophies to test ourselves. It was nice to actually have something to prove we'd done something to our mates and others.

 

I tend to play games on the hardest setting I can manage. Not because I'm amazing at games (I'm not) but because I always like a challenge.

 

As for exploits, difficulty exploits and debug modes? They're worse than accessibility options not disabling trophies. They cheapen and devalue the whole system.

 

At the end of the day it's great that more and more people can enjoy and finish games. But I'd love to see something changed, something that shows a difference from someone that plays on the easiest setting to get the plat and someone that challenged themselves on the hardest setting and also got the plat. Because right now there is no difference.

[thefourfoldroot]

I agree it should disable trophies / achievements. Seems the perfect way to appease people who think there should be a challenge, at the same time as keeping the game accessible for those with disabilities or kids, etc.

Edited July 14, 2021 by thefourfoldroot

[DrBloodmoney]

6 minutes ago, RedDevil757 said:

At the end of the day it's great that more and more people can enjoy and finish games. But I'd love to see something changed, something that shows a difference from someone that plays on the easiest setting to get the plat and someone that challenged themselves on the hardest setting and also got the plat. Because right now there is no difference.

 

that just isn't true - there are loads and loads and loads of games that are tough challenges, and require either the hardest difficulty to be done, or only have one difficulty period - and that difficulty is a challenge (Souls / Rogue-likes etc)

 

There are more than enough of those games to keep any challenge-seeking gamer going for a lifetime - they don't have to play every game out there. 

 

The folks who want accessibility options or easier lists aren't asking for every game to feature them - I haven't seen any serious support for - for example - an easy mode in Dark Souls. They are, for the most part, happy to play the games that are for them, and ignore the ones that aren't.

 

Conversely though, it feels a bit rich for the challenge-seekers to complain about every easy list that comes along - especially family-friendly fare like Psychonauts and Ratchet - when there are plenty of games made specifically to sate their gaming desire for challenge. 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[Dreakon13]

2 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Conversely though, it feels a bit rich for the challenge-seekers to complain about every easy list that comes along - especially family-friendly fare like Psychonauts and Ratchet - when there are plenty of games made specifically to sate their gaming desire for challenge. 

 

Like most things, I don't think people care about this example, but they speak in generalities because they care about it becoming a trend.  From a trophy perspective.

[DrBloodmoney]

4 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

 

Like most things, I don't think people care about this example, but they speak in generalities because they care about it becoming a trend.  From a trophy perspective.

 

I think the only thing become a trend, is these debates ?

 

Also - it's a bit silly to think that this would become the norm, in the same era that has given rise to the golden age of the Rogue-like...

Edited July 14, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[mcnichoj]

6 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

 

Like most things, I don't think people care about this example, but they speak in generalities because they care about it becoming a trend.  From a trophy perspective.

It's old people hating new things.

People also sensationalized the BR fad saying every game would be BR or have a BR mode. We're at like fourteen or so now over the span of five years with literal thousands of other games to play instead on PS4?

[ThatMuttGuy]

I think it's a bit silly that we still have people intentionally misrepresenting what the Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart thread was about. No one was asking for hard trophies or difficulty related ones. People were just expressing disappointment that the trophy list asked you to do a small fraction of the game, a stark contrast to previous games. 

 

I, for one, think trophies should be accessible but that you should also have to earn them. Some games naturally will and should be harder.