Psychonauts 2 features an invincibility mode that won't disable achievements/trophies

[DrBloodmoney]

5 minutes ago, ThatMuttGuy said:

I think it's a bit silly that we still have people intentionally misrepresenting what the Ratchet and Clank: Rift Apart thread was about. No one was asking for hard trophies or difficulty related ones. People were just expressing disappointment that the trophy list asked you to do a small fraction of the game, a stark contrast to previous games. 

 

If you are referring to my post - that's not what I was saying - what I was saying was that any normal playthrough would have netted most of the trophies regardless of whether the list was similar to the previous games lists' or not.

 

The game itself was heavily simplified, and lacked most of the 'off-the-beaten-path' type secret areas that the previous games had anyway - so it really made no material difference to how a person would have experienced that game whether the trophy list was simplified or not.

Edited July 14, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[MonaSaxPayne]

On 7/13/2021 at 8:18 AM, Cleggworth said:

Accessiblity options are there so disabled people can play games and earn trophies like everyone else. Who cares if it makes trophies easier for everyone else? Don't turn them on if you want the challenge. Use the stairs instead of the ramp, Don't complain about the ramp

 

best post in this entire thread

[Dreakon13]

Just now, HondaHoe said:

 

best post in this entire thread

 

Shrug, you don't get trophies for going up stairs, or ramps.  This is really a different situation.

[MonaSaxPayne]

Just now, Dreakon13 said:

 

Shrug, you don't get trophies for going up stairs, or ramps.  This is really a different situation.

 

worst post in this entire thread 

[Dreakon13]

1 minute ago, HondaHoe said:

 

worst post in this entire thread 

 

Cute.

[Cleggworth]

48 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

 

Shrug, you don't get trophies for going up stairs, or ramps.  This is really a different situation.

 

Are you honestly saying disabled people shouldn't be allowed to hunt trophies?

[DrBloodmoney]

6 minutes ago, Cleggworth said:

 

Are you honestly saying disabled people shouldn't be allowed to hunt trophies?

 

I think what he's saying is, when you feel like you're losing an argument, just pretend you don't understand what a metaphor is, and hope for the best... ?

[Dreakon13]

10 minutes ago, Cleggworth said:

 

Are you honestly saying disabled people shouldn't be allowed to hunt trophies?

 

I'm saying the stair example is a bad one... because simply going up stairs, or ramps, is in no way a competition.  Where trophies in almost every circumstance, including trophy hunting, is competitive.  That's why there are ways to compare trophies, and leaderboards.

 

I'll let you come up with a better example if you want.  No strings attached.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Dreakon13

[DrBloodmoney]

2 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

 

I'm saying the stair example is a bad one... because simply going up stairs, or ramps, is in no way a competition.  Where trophies in almost every circumstance, including trophy hunting, is competitive.  That's why there are ways to compare trophies, and leaderboards.

 

 

Checkmate good sir ??

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by DrBloodmoney

[Dreakon13]

4 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

 

 

I made sure to include the word "simply", because the example never specified the... international stair climbing competition.  Which I was blissfully unaware of.

 

Also, where's the ramps in that video?

Edited July 14, 2021 by Dreakon13

[Cleggworth]

5 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

I think what he's saying is, when you feel like you're losing an argument, just pretend you don't understand what a metaphor is, and hope for the best... 

 

? This is crazy, utterly crazy. This leaderboard gatekeeping is getting so out of hand its actually offensive

[DrBloodmoney]

Just now, Dreakon13 said:

 

I made sure to include the word "simply", because the example never specified the... international stair climbing competition.  Which I was blissfully unaware of.

 

I was too - but one thing life in the internet age has taught me - is that if there is a bizzzaro competition you can imagine - it probably exists somewhere ?

 

Just now, Dreakon13 said:

Also, where's the ramps in that video?

 

I guess they lack the inclusiveness trophies are now striving for - I'm proud that we can be pioneers, and show them the right way to be ?

[Dreakon13]

3 minutes ago, Cleggworth said:

 

? This is crazy, utterly crazy. This leaderboard gatekeeping is getting so out of hand its actually offensive

 

I don't really care about the leaderboards.  But they do exist, and stairs (generally) don't have them.

 

Don't drag me, and disabled people, through the mud because you're bad at coming up with examples.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Dreakon13

[DrBloodmoney]

1 minute ago, Dreakon13 said:

I don't really care about the leaderboards.  But they do exist, and stairs (generally) don't have them.

 

I won't keep belabouring the point - I've said my piece, and doubt I'm gonna change anyones mind with further input, but as a last point - in response to this -  I will say:

 

Trophies were never designed to be a Leaderboard - we did that.

Sites like this one, and players like us.

 

Trophies were designed to be personal achievements to strive for within a given game - the leaderboards and cross-game comparisons and competitions are all well and good - but they are a secondary concern to inclusivity, and were never really intended to be the focus of trophies.

 

We turned them into what they are - and I'm happy to continue doing so - but not at the expense of inclusivity.

[Dreakon13]

29 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

I won't keep belabouring the point - I've said my piece, and doubt I'm gonna change anyones mind with further input, but as a last point - in response to this -  I will say:

 

Trophies were never designed to be a Leaderboard - we did that.

Sites like this one, and players like us.

 

Trophies were designed to be personal achievements to strive for within a given game - the leaderboards and cross-game comparisons and competitions are all well and good - but they are a secondary concern to inclusivity, and were never really intended to be the focus of trophies.

 

We turned them into what they are - and I'm happy to continue doing so - but not at the expense of inclusivity.

 

Fair point, I don't disagree.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Dreakon13

[Stardroid]

This upcoming trend of devaluing trophies is why I am not motivated to complete my profile in the slightest and will stop trophy hunting completely if I do ever finish. For me, trophy hunting is about merit and achieving what the trophy description asks you to do. Yes, there are glitches, guides etc that help you with that. But none of these come from the developers themselves. The devs did not intend a Hollow Knight incivility for example. They are moot points to make and it's really an incredibly stupid argument. 

 

 Accessibility is cool but I hate how some people think it leading to free trophies is somehow a good thing. As a matter of fact, do you think that people who need the accessibility are stupid? Do you think they do not understand that achieving these trophies while being invincible is basically meaningless? I have a cousin who has a disability and he finds it degrading. 

 

You don't champion these people and you sure as hell don't speak for them. Trophy hunting for me has become terrible anyway. Can hardly find an AAA game out there with a list that actually poses a challenge. Platting these games feels like you are running a sprint, but you are using a Ferrari car instead of your own legs. It's too easy, it's just a checklist, it's empty and soulless. It just drags out the game instead of enhance it. That's why trophy hunting for me is over and once I am done with my profile I will leave it behind completely. 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Stardroid

[Dreakon13]

I will clarify though, that whomever made the leaderboards (not me), and whomever cares about them (not me)... if the idea is total inclusivity regardless of ability, than step one would be to eliminate the competitive elements of it right?  Get rid of the leaderboards?  If everyone gets everything they serve no purpose.

 

Which I'd be totally fine with... but the fact they probably aren't going anywhere, demonstrates the competitive nature of trophies (whether intended to be that way or not) and gives a clear visual of how something once valued could be devalued if this became a trend for those who haven't been able to follow how/why that is.  You can argue that it shouldn't be valued that way, that it isn't intended to be valued that way, and I wouldn't disagree... but it is.  And that's something to be considered.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Dreakon13

[pot1414]

1 hour ago, HondaHoe said:

 

worst post in this entire thread 

While I'm in favor of these options for some family friendly games which I guess puts me on your "side" he is right on this one. The stairs/ramp argument is indeed a false equivalence thus a fallacy.

[Cleggworth]

9 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

I will clarify though, that whomever made the leaderboards (not me), and whomever cares about them (not me)... if the idea is total inclusivity regardless of ability, than step one would be to eliminate the competitive elements of it right?  Get rid of the leaderboards?  If everyone gets everything they serve no purpose.

 

Which I'd be totally fine with... but the fact they probably aren't going anywhere, demonstrates the competitive nature of trophies (whether intended to be that way or not) and gives a clear visual of how something once valued could be devalued if this became a trend for those who haven't been able to follow how/why that is.  You can argue that it shouldn't be valued that way, that it isn't intended to be valued that way, but it is.  And that's something to be considered.

 

Now this i do agree with. I apologise if you feel I've singled you out with my ire on this topic. There is always something that will upset these competitive types, I'm just stunned that something as wonderful as this is drawing so much criticism ?‍♂️

[Dreakon13]

6 minutes ago, Cleggworth said:

 

Now this i do agree with. I apologise if you feel I've singled you out with my ire on this topic. There is always something that will upset these competitive types, I'm just stunned that something as wonderful as this is drawing so much criticism ?‍♂️

 

I play devil's advocate more often than I probably should, tends to paint me in a bad light.   Don't blame you for getting on me a little.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Dreakon13

[Cleggworth]

13 minutes ago, Dreakon13 said:

 

I play devil's advocate more often than I probably should, tends to paint me in a bad light.   Don't blame you for getting on me a little.

 

Personal customised leaderboards would solve it, they could exclude whoever they like then

[ExHaseo]

Another victim in the casualization of trophies/achievements. Might as well just go the Nier route and let people unlock them all for free. 

 

It's honestly kind of sad that I find more and more games being less satisfying to plat. Due to letting people do stuff like this, give cheats that break the game and let you continue to get trophies, and just dumbing down lists to only require maybe 50% of the game to be completed, if not less. Because yes, this is a cheat. This is not an "accessibility" option. Making a game accessible to people with disabilities means creating options that make the full experience available to them. It gives them the options to play the game like everyone else, and be able to get the same experience. Slapping invincibility on is just lazy, and borderline insulting.

 

I say this as someone who is disabled. I have bad arthritis, and I'm color blind, which limits how and what I can play. As well as how long and often I can play games. An invincibility mode isn't going to make this game easier on me to play. What would make it easier are mappable buttons and camera control options (like being able to auto follow or use buttons to rotate the camera). Those kinds of options and a color blind mode would give me the ability to fully experience the game as intended. Instead I get to be invincible and struggle and probably have to have short sessions that end with me in pain.

[Raidou Kuzunoha XIV]

Honestly, as someone who is disabled myself (though thankfully not in a way that really affects my ability to play games), an invincibility mode for those with disabilities wasn't even at the forefront of my mind, I was thinking this was more for people that have limited time (which something I'm struggling with more and more myself), or small children. I admit I only skimmed the article previously.

 

As I said in my previous comment, I can definitely understand not being thrilled that this mode doesn't lock from you earning achievements/trophies. I personally think achievements/trophies are something you should do for yourself, but I realise not everyone has the same feelings about them. I definitely get the feeling of trophies being cheapened if you can still obtain them using cheats or an invincibility mode, even if you can simply ignore them.

 

And yeah, Double Fine being condescending about this in that one tweet is really not a good look. You can try to make something more appealing to a certain audience without taking a dump on another.

 

Though, I think it's important to remember that just because this option isn't going to appeal or help you, it could still be beneficial for some. But there's definitely far, far more they could have implemented in terms of accessibility, and I do agree it's kind of insulting that they seem to think this will help with "all ages, all possible needs". My husband broke his hand last year and couldn't play anything for a few months. I can only imagine how difficult it is for those that unfortunately have permanently disabled arms/hands; how the hell is an invincibility mode going to make this game any more accessible or enjoyable for them?

[da-Noob123]

I am totally against participation rewards but adding accessibility options to a game so that a person who normally couldn't play a game due to a disability or something I am all for it.

 

But it does worry me and I will give an example as to why. My first Final Fantasy was FFX. I hated it at first but I kept coming back to it, I'd make it so far and get stuck, then start over and make it a little further. All told it probably took me 5 or so years to finally beat it and it is one of my all time favorites to this day and one of my prouder platinums. Fast forward to this year when I beat FF7 for the first time... but I used the modifiers to do so. While I enjoyed the game, something was lost with modifiers on. There are no memories of the struggles it took overcome a challenging boss or barely escaping death in a battle you couldn't afford to fight while trying to get to a save point. (FF7R Hard mode certainly made up for it though.?) 

 

Maybe if they make it so you have to pick right out of the gate if you want these features on it will encourage those who don't need them to ignore them and for lack of better words: "get good." I don't know... either way,  for those who "value" trophies I don't think these accessibility options are going anywhere because developers/ publishers typically want to appeal to as broad an audience as possible to maximize profits. Just remember they can't take away your experience conquering a challenge. 

 

 

[MMDE]

On 7/13/2021 at 4:02 PM, mcnichoj said:

I dunno. I see more activity in threads about exploits than I do threads about playing the the normal way.

 

Yeah, most people will take the path of least resistance. That's irrelevant to my point though.

 

What trophy in your collection do you value the most or is the most proud of? Even people who go for easy games and spam platinums tend to point to something that represent some challenge they accomplished. Everyone who gets it has been through the same thing as you as well. They tend to be more memorable.

 

Anyone can do it the hard way, and then for them they got that memory, but the trophy itself doesn't represent that anymore.

 

And invincibility code is not an accessibility option, nor is easy mode.