Playstation becoming more and more like steam

[Winterkill-]

18 hours ago, willmill97 said:

Who remembers when Aabs Animals first came out and everyone lost their minds with how easy it was to get like 5 trophies? 

 

Oh how far we have come...

Or when the Walking Dead came out.

[You]

I like to use this site's "New Trophy Lists" feature as a way of knowing roughly what games are coming out/about to come out.

Which is annoying when multiple stacks come out often pushing new games out of the top list, sometimes within the same day.

[AJ_Radio]

37 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

But not everyone cares about the leaderboards so that's a moot point. Leaderboards have always been about who has the most time/money, long before the rise of EZPZ. You either went out of your way to buy/play games to keep up or you fell behind. Nothing has changed in that regard. So unless you're actively trying to keep up in this rat race then it doesn't affect you ('you' generally speaking, not specifically YOU).

 

He has over 18,000 trophies and has stuck with the hobby from the very beginning. I don't think he or most anybody else is asking for difficult, time consuming platinums like it was in the early PS3 days. Being in the top 4000 worldwide on PSNP is still pretty good, that's not literally the top sure, but that's pretty damn good. Especially for someone with close to 100 percent completion rate and virtually no game of his being EZPZ titles.

 

When I used to play for rankings in Runescape, it was always about who had the most time and money. The big difference was I had to bust my ass in that game, because everything revolved around grinding, there was no other way around that.

 

With leaderboard rankings in regards to trophies, all I have to do is buy the latest throwaway games that just came out this past week, finish them in 5 - 20 minutes, and see my ranking skyrocket. A decade ago, your choices were far more limited. Not just because there weren't as many games, but also the fact that the platinum trophy in most games required you to put in the work and effort. 

 

Your easiest platinums back then were your Disney and Dreamwork games catered to children. Megamind is a good example. People used to look down on the Hannah Montana and Terminator Salvation platinum trophies. Nowadays barely anybody is playing those anymore. Why would they, when they could stack a bunch of easy games in the time frame that it takes to finish Hannah Montana? Hannah Montana in contrast is far more time consuming and difficult.

 

Sony has made it where the developers are coming out with crap games with crappy trophy lists, usually a bunch of golds and one or two silvers. No bronze. I am really tired of looking at the latest games on this website only to see that page cluttered with bullshit games that I would never play.

 

People are rewarding the shit developers coming out with trash that looked like it was done on Microsoft Word or Adobe Photoshop over those indie developers who spent a lot of time and money making a quality indie game. There are good games that are practically dead or barely have any game owners. But lo and behold, Funny Truck has a combined 2,200+ active players on the PS4/PS5 stacks. A game that can be easily finished in under 10 minutes.

 

We don't have to care about the leaderboards. But it is sickening to always have to filter out this crap when we're looking for the latest games. It's purely about the money, and nothing else.

 

I could get my 8 year old niece to finish some of those games for me. And she doesn't play video games.

[willmill97]

2 hours ago, Winterkill- said:

Or when the Walking Dead came out.

 

Not the same thing, in the slightest. The Walking Dead is an actual good game, made by people trying to make a good game. Aabs animals and everything that came after it is just made by people who want to make money from people who go for trophies with no intention of making a good product. 

[MatThaRiPP3R84]

22 hours ago, EverythingOnFire said:

 

In just the worst ways, of course.

 

Give us a shout when Sony/Playstation starts offering easy refunds, constant sales, and algorithms that actually learn what each individual gamer likes to play, in an effort to advertise games to us that we'll actually want to play.

hahaha. you give sony too much credit. their network is line two baked bean cans and a piece of shitty decaying string thats been left in salt water too long.

[EdinhoN]

23 hours ago, IvoryRose88 said:

One thing i can say is that i NEVER stack any games for trophies. Thats one rule i have. No duplicate platinums. I do not think it should be allowed to stack games from 5 different countries. Trophies should only count from the country you live in.  Im not sure why this is even allowed to do imo.

Simply, why?

 

If you don't wanna play stacks, simply keep not playing.

I love replaying games on another region and do all trophies again, while they are still adding to my main account.

If I could choose, I wish every single PS Store had a different stack, this way we could play the same game 20+ times =P

I'd love to have 20 TLOU platinums lol

 

In the end, it's a win-neutral situation if we have stacks:

- People that don't care about stacks don't play, so they shouldn't even be bothered by stacks existence

- People who enjoy stacks can be happy playing how they enjoy.

 

I even go further than stacking: if I have already done a game on PSN and there's no more stacks but there are achievements on Xbox/Steam/Google Play/whatever I'll go look there.

[scemopagliaccioh]

We went from Sony Rewards, to this type of shit, now people are buying platinums, and Sony doesn’t have to do shit, even the sites that keep track of user stats are made by private users, how disgusting.

[LordBilbanes]

4 hours ago, AJ_Radio said:

 

He has over 18,000 trophies and has stuck with the hobby from the very beginning. I don't think he or most anybody else is asking for difficult, time consuming platinums like it was in the early PS3 days. Being in the top 4000 worldwide on PSNP is still pretty good, that's not literally the top sure, but that's pretty damn good. Especially for someone with close to 100 percent completion rate and virtually no game of his being EZPZ titles.

 

SNIP

 

People are rewarding the shit developers coming out with trash that looked like it was done on Microsoft Word or Adobe Photoshop over those indie developers who spent a lot of time and money making a quality indie game. There are good games that are practically dead or barely have any game owners. But lo and behold, Funny Truck has a combined 2,200+ active players on the PS4/PS5 stacks. A game that can be easily finished in under 10 minutes.

 

We don't have to care about the leaderboards. But it is sickening to always have to filter out this crap when we're looking for the latest games. It's purely about the money, and nothing else.

 

I could get my 8 year old niece to finish some of those games for me. And she doesn't play video games.

I understand your frustration with these games, I do.  Even being guilty of playing some of these games, I still understand why you're irritated them.  The thing is though, that insofar as I'm concerned, I don't believe that the audience playing these games will necessarily take away from the good independently developed games that come out on PSN.  The people buying these quick platinum trophy games are buying them specifically for the trophies, which is a different (but still possibly overlapping) audience than the people playing those indie gems.  I for instance, will buy and play the indie gems while also occasionally bolstering my trophy count with these games.

Also, on the note of indie games, it should be noted that Sony of late has been somewhat of a hostile partner when it comes to independent studios.  There are a number of accounts of Sony in general being really dismissive of the indie studios that don't have games that important folks at Sony are interested in.  Moreover, a lot of indie titles (like Hades, for instance) end up releasing on PC and Switch long before coming out on PSN.  By the time they do, most of the people interested in the game, might've already bought them elsewhere which reduces the potential pool of purchasers.

 

I do think Sony really needs to do a lot more quality control on trophies in general.  They also need to be more responsive to their customers and adopt more consumer friendly policies as it's clear they've become filled with hubris once again. ;_;  

[MyNameIs_Rainman]

I have some easy's and some games that have taken me 200+ hours, some that have tested my patience and skill, and others that were just chill to play, I play what I want to play, when I want to play it, whether it's a hard game or something I can just mindlessly play to get away from the grinding fatigue of another day. Not every day I have the patience and motivation to play a "hard platinum" although that's very subjective. I can look at my own trophy list and say I'm happy with what I've played, and that's all that really matters. 

 

Sure, Steam has a lot of random games there and maybe it makes finding that one game you are looking for hard, and maybe people want to avoid that happening here on PS..but a lot of these games people are complaining about might have easy platinums and be 15 minute completions, but if that silly little game speaks to some kid who is learning how to play and sparks that passion for gaming like it did for me when I was younger, then I'm all for it. Can't expect some 4 year old to be platting Star Ocean or FF XIV, so to me I see the EZPZ games as accessibility for a younger generation of kids learning how to play. So what someone gets a 6-stack of a game, it's all about letting people have fun the way they want to.

 

 

 

 

Except little adventure on the prairie, fuck that game.

[Ashbo]

@The Alchemist and @Beyondthegrave07 have summed it up very well with their points/suggestions about don't buy or entertain the easy games and the site set up a new alternate lb respectively.

 

I play loads of cheap quick plat games as i've admittedly got addicted to chasing numbers for me and me only over the last couple of years. I rarely even check the lb's here at PSNP as i'm just honestly not that arsed. Im also fully aware of how easy these games are and that little to no skill at all is required to plat them, so I for one would never scream from the leaderboard, "check out my profile guys, i'm smashing it!" nor am I bothered about anyone else and their numbers. I mean i've read where people have said Bloodborne for example is easy peasy both for trophies and the game, yet for others the game is tough as nails and lets face it, its no rata in comparison is it. However as its such a subjective topic difficulty etc if they enjoyed it and found it easy, well happy days, carry on mate.... I tried Sekiro a couple of years back, beautiful brilliant game, but I just couldnt "Git Gud" (I fucking hate that arrogance by the way) at it and sadly left it. Who knows, maybe one day i'll do it? 

 

To add to that, if someone has all the souls games or SMB, all the Crash games, every MP game etc at 100% plats with stacks or whatever, good on them, likewise for those who have stacked every POWGI, Rata, SY and other titles, you do you its simple. I pretty much doubt people are queuing up to congratulate them on their achievements from either side of the field as it were, so play what ya want and stick with it.

 

I understand the just taking money off people for quick trophies arguement, but we as trophy hunters are a thumbnail on the gaming world, so nothing I don't think, right or wrong will change on that front, similarly to how expensive digi games are to physical at launch. £100 for FIFA?!? Do me a favour.

 

For what its worth, my gaming time which is a few hours a night, albeit regular means I play some short games (of which some indie titles are some of the best games i've played) in between better, longer games and I have got into a habit, where I class every 25th plat a milestone, so 25, 50, 75 etc and in playing varied stuff in between these goals I always make sure a good game I want to milestone is done for it. Again my choice, rules, mindset and preference and even by telling people this, I doubt no one is bothered, because it doesnt or at least I dont think shouldnt affect them.

[MatThaRiPP3R84]

plenty of good indies without having to resort to extreme cheese like raki games. I mean i got a couple myself but i felt dirty playing them. wanna try and keep them to a minimum really. but sometimes they have decent thumbnails, overall I definitely think sony need to sort their shit out. they just seem to be ditching what doesn't print money, regardless of how much it actually makes. the suit in charge is cancer.

 

I don't hold out much hope that any triple a game will really deliver, especially not now with a price increase so ridiculously high in the uk. coupled with shorter games going forward even less effort spent. and the games too, surely ratshit n wank was done and dusted years ago.

[FocusDR]

Welcome to the current times where everyone is out to make a quick buck by any means necessary   

[Beyondthegrave07]

42 minutes ago, Ashbo said:

@The Alchemist and @Beyondthegrave07 have summed it up very well with their points/suggestions about don't buy or entertain the easy games and the site set up a new alternate lb respectively.

 

I play loads of cheap quick plat games as i've admittedly got addicted to chasing numbers for me and me only over the last couple of years. I rarely even check the lb's here at PSNP as i'm just honestly not that arsed. Im also fully aware of how easy these games are and that little to no skill at all is required to plat them, so I for one would never scream from the leaderboard, "check out my profile guys, i'm smashing it!" nor am I bothered about anyone else and their numbers. I mean i've read where people have said Bloodborne for example is easy peasy both for trophies and the game, yet for others the game is tough as nails and lets face it, its no rata in comparison is it. However as its such a subjective topic difficulty etc if they enjoyed it and found it easy, well happy days, carry on mate.... I tried Sekiro a couple of years back, beautiful brilliant game, but I just couldnt "Git Gud" (I fucking hate that arrogance by the way) at it and sadly left it. Who knows, maybe one day i'll do it? 

 

To add to that, if someone has all the souls games or SMB, all the Crash games, every MP game etc at 100% plats with stacks or whatever, good on them, likewise for those who have stacked every POWGI, Rata, SY and other titles, you do you its simple. I pretty much doubt people are queuing up to congratulate them on their achievements from either side of the field as it were, so play what ya want and stick with it.

Yeah, and honestly, I think having a second leaderboard will cater to both crowds. You could have a group dedicated to UR plats and make progress on that leaderboard and others who would continue to play their rata games and such to maintain their place or move up on the standard one we have now.

 

Then, there's people like me who do neither and play what they want and will probably never make much progress on either. ? Still, at least it'd be something new to look at. I always find myself looking at my stats more than my lb rank anyways. 

[AJ_Radio]

7 hours ago, LordBilbanes said:

I understand your frustration with these games, I do.  Even being guilty of playing some of these games, I still understand why you're irritated them.  The thing is though, that insofar as I'm concerned, I don't believe that the audience playing these games will necessarily take away from the good independently developed games that come out on PSN.  The people buying these quick platinum trophy games are buying them specifically for the trophies, which is a different (but still possibly overlapping) audience than the people playing those indie gems.  I for instance, will buy and play the indie gems while also occasionally bolstering my trophy count with these games.

Also, on the note of indie games, it should be noted that Sony of late has been somewhat of a hostile partner when it comes to independent studios.  There are a number of accounts of Sony in general being really dismissive of the indie studios that don't have games that important folks at Sony are interested in.  Moreover, a lot of indie titles (like Hades, for instance) end up releasing on PC and Switch long before coming out on PSN.  By the time they do, most of the people interested in the game, might've already bought them elsewhere which reduces the potential pool of purchasers.

 

I do think Sony really needs to do a lot more quality control on trophies in general.  They also need to be more responsive to their customers and adopt more consumer friendly policies as it's clear they've become filled with hubris once again. ;_;  

You address some good points. 
 

I recently did Valfaris and Blasting Agent: Ultimate Edition. One is quite good, the other, not so much. These are the kinds of indies I want to see, with trophy lists that encourage the player to do most of everything. 
 

There are good newer indie games if you look hard enough, but they are all shoved to the backside as both trophy hunters (whores) and Sony continue to accept and buy complete shit. 
 

And it’s not just playing a couple of those games here and there. They have to buy every region stack. That is disgusting. 
 

The only game that is shown multiple times on my list is Sound Shapes. I found out that kind of thing just isn’t for me. Having to download the other region stacks, pay for each one thru a fake region PSN account, and set up those accounts to even access them is just not worth it. Too much time spent, too much money that could of gone to other games.
 

For a lot of these trash games, you still have to pay for them separately on your other region accounts. So while they’re dirt cheap, you’re paying close to the equivalent of a full game if you want all the stacks. 
 

Indies almost always have their primary audience on Steam. Most indies I have played have a far bigger playerbase on there. Sadly Sony is mostly driving these games away, those who care the most about them are just sticking to Steam. Their achievement system is absolute garbage. Trophies are still, to an extent, a little more worthwhile. You don’t have thousands of achievements for one game like you do on Steam, and so on. 
 

The PS4 generation left Sony greedy and selfish. As much as I don’t like Microsoft’s tactics, I hope they can make some headway this gen and kick Sony in the nuts. 

[TJ_Solo]

4 hours ago, FocusDR said:

Welcome to the current times where everyone is out to make a quick buck by any means necessary   

 

this is only current to you if you were born last night.

business live and die by money, that is all. They don't eat veggies or need sunlight or need love. They only need and want money.

businesses will try to maximize profits by any means necessary. that shouldnt be an issue so long as what they do is legal.

of course, I don't include emotions.

 

[Varhur]

"Easy game stacks ruined gaming" thread number 1365.

 

You guys are sure not tired of making same threads over and over again.

[willows_blessing]

On 7/23/2021 at 1:14 PM, Jerry_Appleby said:

Seeing things like this really makes me annoyed. I have found a lot of really great indie games with fewer than 100 total owners, and the devs took the time to make a fantastic game with hours of entertainment, only to have nobody buy it because people would rather spend their money on a 10 minute EZPZ plat instead.  

 

 

i found two great and fun indie games during a sale, agatha knife and mecha nika, they are brilliant games and are great but also have easy trophies, and it kinda sucks to be a dev of these kind if games knowing 90% of people dont care about your game / just look up a guide through the whole game for trophies, 

[Ashbo]

8 minutes ago, Varhur said:

"Easy game stacks ruined gaming" thread number 1365.

 

You guys are sure not tired of making same threads over and over again.

 

Just be thankful you can't 'stack' the same thread...

[zid2016]

32 minutes ago, Varhur said:

"Easy game stacks ruined gaming" thread number 1365.

 

You guys are sure not tired of making same threads over and over again.

We will get another thread when the breakthrough games drop tonight.

[The Alchemist]

5 hours ago, Ashbo said:

@The Alchemist and @Beyondthegrave07 have summed it up very well with their points/suggestions about don't buy or entertain the easy games and the site set up a new alternate lb respectively.

 

It's honestly so simple as far as I'm concerned, mate. If you don't like something, you simply ignore it. Don't like Ratalaika games? Don't buy them. I don't like wrestling, but you don't see me going on the internet and constantly whining about it being on the tele, I just don't turn on the feckin channel to watch it. Problem solved!!

 

These threads are always the same and nothing useful ever comes out of them imo. It mostly boils down to people complaining about what other people are playing. Why are people investing so much energy into doing that? It's beyond me. Just do you and play what YOU want to. I'm playing Dirt 5 right now and I'm having an absolute blast. I couldn't give less of a fuck if 20,000 people are playing the latest Breakthrough Arcade game right now. Whether they're playing it because they enjoy those games or because they want to spam trophies to climb the LBs, it's completely irrelevant. Know why? I'm still having fun playing Dirt 5 and earning the trophies I want to. What these people are doing has no effect on me, my enjoyment, or my trophies. 

 

As for an alternative rarity leaderboard, I personally don't see the point. It might be cool to check out or whatever, but it's ultimately pointless imo. There's also a shitload of games you can cheese for UR trophies so I await the day someone creates a thread complaining about that too. They'll be calling for certain games to be excluded from the leaderboard or something, mark my words. It'll be this topic all over again, just swap out EZPZ for UR trophies/games ?

 

 

 

[ThatMuttGuy]

21 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

As for an alternative rarity leaderboard, I personally don't see the point. It might be cool to check out or whatever, but it's ultimately pointless imo. There's also a shitload of games you can cheese for UR trophies so I await the day someone creates a thread complaining about that too. They'll be calling for certain games to be excluded from the leaderboard or something, mark my words. It'll be this topic all over again, just swap out EZPZ for UR trophies/games 

 

Lmao no. With UR trophies, you have to put effort into getting them (most of the time). Sometimes games do have easy UR trophies, because no one plays them, but if there's an UR leaderboard, I'd assume people with that in mind might chase UR trophies, making the easier ones rise in rarity. 

 

Either way, going for UR trophies takes a whole fuckton more effort than endlessly stacking 99% platinums. People are free to do so, but I'd rather see a leaderboard that excludes anything above 50% as an alternative. Then people wouldn't care as much about EZPZs, because a separate leaderboard would filter out the garbage. Admittedly, there are some great games that are above 50%, but that's just how it goes sometimes.

[AJ_Radio]

1 hour ago, Alantor32 said:

XD, no...

 

Make an actual point dude.

 

28 minutes ago, The Alchemist said:

 

It's honestly so simple as far as I'm concerned, mate. If you don't like something, you simply ignore it. Don't like Ratalaika games? Don't buy them. I don't like wrestling, but you don't see me going on the internet and constantly whining about it being on the tele, I just don't turn on the feckin channel to watch it. Problem solved!!

 

These threads are always the same and nothing useful ever comes out of them imo. It mostly boils down to people complaining about what other people are playing. Why are people investing so much energy into doing that? It's beyond me. Just do you and play what YOU want to. I'm playing Dirt 5 right now and I'm having an absolute blast. I couldn't give less of a fuck if 20,000 people are playing the latest Breakthrough Arcade game right now. Whether they're playing it because they enjoy those games or because they want to spam trophies to climb the LBs, it's completely irrelevant. Know why? I'm still having fun playing Dirt 5 and earning the trophies I want to. What these people are doing has no effect on me, my enjoyment, or my trophies. 

 

As for an alternative rarity leaderboard, I personally don't see the point. It might be cool to check out or whatever, but it's ultimately pointless imo. There's also a shitload of games you can cheese for UR trophies so I await the day someone creates a thread complaining about that too. They'll be calling for certain games to be excluded from the leaderboard or something, mark my words. It'll be this topic all over again, just swap out EZPZ for UR trophies/games 

 

 

 

 

Cmon man.

 

I think the most amusing part about people with your point of view is you can't easily filter out the complaints and the whining.

 

I've bitched about Taylor Swift, Rihanna and Justin Beiber countless times on various forums because I think their music sucks. I bought some of their music and I made the decision long ago that I wasn't going to buy any of their albums anymore. Doesn't mean that I can't bitch about them.

 

This is like saying "I couldn't give a fuck if Lady Gaga sold 20 million records and she has a video on YouTube with 500 million views". I'm still going to come out and say that I think she absolutely sucks as a music performer, she has no talent and she doesn't deserve the fame she has gotten over the years. Then the fanboys, admirers and those who have stuck with Lady Gaga for a long time will attack me just because I said something negative about her.

 

95 - 99 percent of all arguing in forum threads like this go nowhere anyway. I'm not against people venting their frustration or concern. Most people who are playing these easy games probably aren't even aware the PSNP forums exist, let alone bother to make a couple posts.

 

And for you saying you don't see the point of a rarity leaderboard, I respectfully disagree. I don't cheese ultra rare trophies either, my total count of 300 is nothing special. I could easily get that count to 500 or 1000 ultra rares if I really wanted to, but I would have to play games that I otherwise want nothing to do with. I pick out the games I like to play just like you do for yourself.

 

For so many people like you to come on here and claim to not care at all on how others are earning their trophies, you guys are sure making an effort to get upset when people like myself are trying to make a legitimate argument that the hobby we care about is being polluted with easy platinums.

 

I don't care about the leaderboards. Fine. But stop making a case that we're just on here to personally attack you guys, as you guys have claimed time and time again whenever there is a 'Breakthrough Gaming Arcade' thread or whatever thread that tries to make the point that there are just too many overly easy games with less than 10 minute platinums.

 

Were it not for the stacks, most of these bitching threads probably wouldn't exist.

Edited July 24, 2021 by AJ_Radio

[DeepEyes7]

1 minute ago, ThatMuttGuy said:

 

Lmao no. With UR trophies, you have to put effort into getting them (most of the time). Sometimes games do have easy UR trophies, because no one plays them, but if there's an UR leaderboard, I'd assume people with that in mind might chase UR trophies, making the easier ones rise in rarity. 

 

Either way, going for UR trophies takes a whole fuckton more effort than endlessly stacking 99% platinums. People are free to do so, but I'd rather see a leaderboard that excludes anything above 50% as an alternative. Then people wouldn't care as much about EZPZs, because a separate leaderboard would filter out the garbage. Admittedly, there are some great games that are above 50%, but that's just how it goes sometimes.

 

People always use the same argument, "There is a lot of easy UR trophies, everyone will go for the same trophies! It will be EZPZ all over again", and it seems that they never realize that once people start going for the easy URs they will stop being URs... thats even a better way to weed out easy UR trophies... And well, EZPZ will always be EZPZ...

[AJ_Radio]

22 minutes ago, DeepEyes7 said:

 

People always use the same argument, "There is a lot of easy UR trophies, everyone will go for the same trophies! It will be EZPZ all over again", and it seems that they never realize that once people start going for the easy URs they will stop being URs... thats even a better way to weed out easy UR trophies... And well, EZPZ will always be EZPZ...

 

There is literally a ton of PSN games from the early PS4 era that are practically dead, with a whole bunch of ultra rares.

 

Most people aren't going to play for instance Raiden V, as that is a difficult shmup that most people probably don't have the skill for. However a number of games that have ultra rare status are because they were on PS Plus, and most people only played the first 30 minutes or so before moving on.

 

I don't expect Mighty No 9 to suddenly get a slew of people playing it even with a rarity leaderboard fully intact. It was definitely a game that went thru development hell and is generally seen as a poor man's Mega Man. It was indeed on Plus a few years back, which brought an influx of game owners.

 

Easy ultra rare trophies could mean the game itself is boring and a chore. Difficulty is generally not a good argument to make on ultra rares, as that is entirely subjective. I've played games with over a five percent rarity platinum trophy that I felt were considerably harder than a number of ultra rares I've done. The point still stands that rarity does not equal difficulty.

[AihaLoveleaf]

A rarity leaderboard is going to have its flaws, but who honestly cares at this point? Your chances of seeing actually impressive profiles is going to be exponentially higher than it is with the current leaderboard.

 

There are a lot of profiles near the top of the current leaderboard with Average Rarity stats upwards of 80% or higher. The most ridiculous case I personally witnessed was a profile with over 1,000 Platinums and the rarest trophy earned was 20%!

 

For a system that originally focused on rewarding players for achievements of skill and effort, I don't think it's that big of a stretch to say that it would be far more interesting to see a leaderboard where you're much more likely to see a profile that makes you go "Wow, this person is really good at video games."