dmland12

It's about time: A fix for the leaderboard that doesn't involve rarity

130 posts in this topic

We all know the leaderboard isn't as well regarded as it used to be.  People have come up with alternate ideas usually involving trophy rarity, then other people complain about using rarity as a measure and nothing ever seems to happen.  So maybe it's time to start thinking about things differently.

 

I suggest adding the following rule:

 

Count trophy xp only from games that have a 50th place time (or the highest available if less than 50) on the fastest achievers list of more than x minutes.  (x could be 30 minutes or some other short timeframe)

 

 

The point is to just remove games from the calculation that can be completed too quickly, as well as games that are auto-popped.  And count just those that take at least a little time to complete.  The end effect would be to return the leaderboards closer to the way they were before (although not exactly of course because this would get stuff like Sound Shapes & Arcade Archives etc).  The rule has nothing to do with rarity or any of those old arguments.  There's still plenty of non-rare games to play that will count.  So, let's hear the new arguments for why this is a horrible idea too.  😬

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1 hour ago, B1rvine said:

It's not going to work, too many ways to game the system, and as you mention autopopped trophy lists are very common now due to save transfers and other workarounds. There needs to be a cultural change among the community.

 

 

That won't work either sadly. It's far too easy to buy into these games and earn 50 - 100 platinums within a month. It took me more effort to buy the region Sound Shape stacks than it takes to play a bunch of the shovelware.

 

It's instant gratification in a nutshell really. No two ways about it.

 

1 hour ago, FilmFanatic said:

There’s nothing to think about. Nothings getting added to this website because it’s all but dead. Any suggestion for anything, leaderboard or otherwise, will fall on deaf ears.

 

This website is in better shape than the horrid mess that is the PST.org forums, but PSNP is beginning to get stale. I don't even care for the suggestions regarding the leaderboards, it's the suggestions people have made years ago that would make this website more user friendly.

 

Sly Ripper needs to pass the torch. Just contacting him at all these days is a challenge.

 

52 minutes ago, dieselmanchild said:


It will never change. Sadly I think our little community here is just a reflection of the wider Western culture of entitlement, addiction, and instant gratification we’ve all come to expect in every aspect of our daily lives. I see this same pattern playing out everywhere.

 

A spot on observation if I ever saw one. Good job on 10,000 trophies by the way.

 

52 minutes ago, DeepEyes7 said:

The main leaderboard should stay as it is because thats how the trophy system works, yeah we are filled with easy and quick plats but we can't deny that they exist.

 

This options should be done for parallel leaderboards like the rarity one proposed a lot of times, those are just for fun and to appeal to some groups of trophy hunters, but as we know, it won't happen.

 

And with the leaderboard proposed here, I think that there is a lot of ways to trick it, people will just go around the rules to make their ezpz plats counts (letting all the trophy lists incomplete by one or two trophies and picking up tomorrow getting that trophy on all stacks... Things like that)...

 

Husky seems to be the only guy who is actually doing anything. MMDE I thought was working on the rarity leaderboard, but he hasn't been all that active of late and I imagine even he is having a difficult time contacting Sly.

 

I don't even look at the leaderboards anymore, because it is a joke.

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Wow, so much negativity!  Never would have guessed.  😄

 

9 hours ago, B1rvine said:

It's not going to work, too many ways to game the system, and as you mention autopopped trophy lists are very common now due to save transfers and other workarounds. There needs to be a cultural change among the community.

 

 

You really think (nearly) everyone will get on the same page in order to manipulate times?  Maybe if the main leaderboard was outright replaced with something like this they would just out of self-preservation.  I guess I wasn't clear about this in my first post but, I really don't see that happening.  That would be too radical for it to actually work.  As long as the main leaderboard is still there too you know people will just pile it up as fast as they can.

 

The only way to change people is to offer alternative incentives.  Right now, you get rewarded for just piling up trophy xp as fast as you can with no other considerations.  That's why people are doing what they're doing.

 

 

 

9 hours ago, FilmFanatic said:

There’s nothing to think about. Nothings getting added to this website because it’s all but dead. Any suggestion for anything, leaderboard or otherwise, will fall on deaf ears.

 

I do think sooner or later there will be renewed interest in the site from sly.  So, there's still value in figuring out what sort of changes we would like to see.  I know I've felt like this too, but I try not to stay too pessimistic.

 

 

7 hours ago, totallycrushed said:

Or just forget the LBs and focus on your own games/completion.

 

What a sad sentiment.  Leaderboards, if they're implemented well should give people various goals and incentives.  But currently we've just got one leaderboard and the way forward on it is clear and unappealing to many right now.  In other words, we could imagine a world where you can both focus on your own games and also get some satisfaction from the leaderboards.

 

It's just really sad that we're at the point where people think the best advise is to just stop paying attention to a main feature of the site, since it's just so unsatisfying for so many.

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Leaderboard where some games or trophies are discriminated is flawed. There have been good suggestions proposed in the rarity leaderboard thread but all in all it doesn't matter anyway.

 

9 minutes ago, dmland12 said:

It's just really sad that we're at the point where people think the best advise is to just stop paying attention suggesting new features

 

FTFY

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1 minute ago, HusKy said:

Leaderboard where some games or trophies are discriminated is flawed. There have been good suggestions proposed in the rarity leaderboard thread but all in all it doesn't matter anyway.

 

 

FTFY

 

Well, the rarity leaderboard absolutely does discriminate.  If we don't vary the value of some trophy or game at all then we're just stuck in the mud with the main leaderboard and that's it.  There's nothing else possible.

 

It's disheartening seeing you take that position.  I think there's a lot of people that are hoping that you'll eventually get some access to improve the site directly if sly doesn't.  But, it sounds like even that wouldn't help.

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Posted (edited)

While I agree rarity is not the best indicator, for the most part, it fixes everything your suggestion would accomplish.

 

It's clear you want to eliminate the quick EZPZ games from the leaderboard, but this could be easily manipulated. For instance, what stopping the people who like these games to earn one trophy, then wait 10 days, and earn the rest?

 

Rarity prevents this because it's harder to fudge it. That said, I am not suggesting that rarity is without its flaws or manipulation.

 

You also specifically mention auto pops. I could misunderstand you, but it sounded like you were suggesting not including games that can be auto-popped, which would impact the people that do not do such things. For instance, I got AC Valhalla at launch with my PS5.

 

I started with the PS5 version and played through and platted that version. Many people opted to start with the PS4 version (true for so many other titles) and then transfer to PS5 to autopop the trophies (or at least the ones that can be autopopped).

 

As much as I dislike autopopping, I don't think it's nearly as big of a problem as EZPZ games are.

 

As for using the fastest achievers, it also brings up other problems. What about things like debug mode. I dislike it, but can't argue it's in the game and does not require any hacking to do so. However, a lot of people will not opt to do this.

 

There are also cases like visual novels. Steins;Gate is a terrific game that playing normally would be a 30-40 hr experience. However, you could also follow a guide, skip all cutscenes and plat it in 2-3 hrs.

 

Rarity is a better metric for a lot of these more nuanced situations imo. It's not perfect, but better than the current leaderboard.

Edited by sepheroithisgod
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10 hours ago, dmland12 said:

We all know the leaderboard isn't as well regarded as it used to be.  People have come up with alternate ideas usually involving trophy rarity, then other people complain about using rarity as a measure and nothing ever seems to happen.  So maybe it's time to start thinking about things differently.

 

I suggest adding the following rule:

 

Count trophy xp only from games that have a 50th place time (or the highest available if less than 50) on the fastest achievers list of more than x minutes.  (x could be 30 minutes or some other short timeframe)

 

 

The point is to just remove games from the calculation that can be completed too quickly, as well as games that are auto-popped.  And count just those that take at least a little time to complete.  The end effect would be to return the leaderboards closer to the way they were before (although not exactly of course because this would get stuff like Sound Shapes & Arcade Archives etc).  The rule has nothing to do with rarity or any of those old arguments.  There's still plenty of non-rare games to play that will count.  So, let's hear the new arguments for why this is a horrible idea too.  1f62c.png

difficult games can be done quickly if you have perfect runs so using completion time isn't good to use either...

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At this point can we just get a forum subsection for discussions about adding a rarity leaderboard?

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Great fucking job you clowns. You insult @dmland12 based on his own observations on his own thread. It's no fucking wonder some people have left this website.

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Just now, ThatMuttGuy said:

 

If the site owner doesn't actually update the site by doing basically anything, I anticipate more and more people will leave as well. The entire feedback forum is fucking pointless because who the fuck is going to implement anything on this site? 

 

Someone is going to create a better site one day, I'm sure.  

 

If the guy is busy with his life I can understand that. We all have stuff that take us away from our hobbies, sometimes for an extended period of time. To ignore and shield yourself from responses and suggestions for months at a time though, that isn't moving forward. That is miscommunication.

 

I don't know the TC and I've barely spoken to him at all in the time I've been here. I'm not trying to defend him, but this attitude of negativity in regards to how trophies should be handled, I think it's pretty obvious why some people are leaving. I made a few trophy discussions myself and I was criticized just for making an alternative viewpoint. When you treat new members in this fashion, they will leave.

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10 minutes ago, MrTrofyHunter said:

And yet here you are commenting on nearly every discussion in the forums and complaining about anything and everything. Come on @AJ_Radio, have you thought about leaving yet? I can tell you are passionate about your opinions and thoughts on gaming but I cringe on what I read from you more times than not. Uplift, encourage, and maintain some positivity I plead with you.

 

You're looking in the wrong places. I'm very passionate as you can tell. But I make myself look awfully good compared to DarkSydePhil. That dude is a real drama queen if you wanted to find one. Just saying.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, AJ_Radio said:

 

If the guy is busy with his life I can understand that. We all have stuff that take us away from our hobbies, sometimes for an extended period of time. To ignore and shield yourself from responses and suggestions for months at a time though, that isn't moving forward. That is miscommunication.

 

I dont know if miscommunication is the right word or if it'd be closer to abandonment.  Either way, he should probably have put someone else in charge (temporarily?) or put up a notice of absence or something.

 

Even his own mods and CRT have said he's MIA.  Even if he would return for just a day to give a definitive answer to a lot of these suggestions etc, it might put an end to seeing the same discussion over and over

Edited by AJ_-_808
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