Dlc owners "system" needs renovating

[Reinachii-]

I saw in 2013 the way dlc owners is calculated changed - owners are anyone who earns 1 trophy now instead of people who own the game.

I struggle to see the argument as to why this is a good idea. 

 

My arguments as to why it is a bad idea are:

 

1. Most dlc adds extra elements to a game, not just extra stages. For example Bioshock 2. In Bioshock 2 there is a trophy for reaching level 40 in multiplayer. It sits at 7.19%. In the dlc there is a trophy that requires "rebirth"(prestige). This means level 50. This sits at 12.31% rarity. 

 

More "owners" reached level 50 and rebirth than owners reached level 40. Huh?

 

2. Trophy rarity "discrepancy" - most difficult dlc rarely has ultra rare trophies because the only owners who buy it are the ones who know they can do it majority of the time. Where as a lot of easy dlc has Ultra rare trophies because a lot of people buy the dlc. This point is hard to argue; you may ask: "if its easy and lots of people buy it, how is it UR?" 

 

Lets use firstly Warhammer 40k for the ps3. Anyone who has played the DLC knows that it isnt the easiest task to complete. The trophies being "Heretic" and "Let the Heavens Bleed" these require you to finish the invasion bonus wave in a coop match. Neither of these trophies are UR. But, they should be. If you're skilled enough you may earn these trophies in 1~3 hours. Most will take numerous attempts over several days. 

 

Now let's look at Need for Speed Most Wanted. There are a few UR trophies in the DLCs, although a little grindy(most can be idled...) they are not difficult at all. The reason they are UR is likely because the owners got the DLC for the extra cars and mods. 

 

There are plently of other examples of this. 

 

I see a lot of people argue this is a good system because it allows their rarest trophies be plats. Not everyone thinks this way. Even with this system you will struggle to find anyone with 5 plats in their top 5. 

 

I wonder how many are for and against this system?

Edited September 19, 2021 by Reinachii-

[totakos1]

It looks like people that keep buying dlc are going to be for it and people that don’t against it, there were even some that didn’t want the percentage of the dlc to count since they didn’t purchase/ play it! Probably it can’t be any separation but I think the issue is with the free one that is included ( NG+ example )that you know everyone has it!

[Reinachii-]

The dlc rarity doesnt affect people who don't buy DLC. They can't get 100% or S rank without it, so them refusing to buy doesn't matter. 

 

DLC is still part of the game, whether someone wants it or not. PsNP is causing the seperation between game and DLC not the DLC itself.

[totakos1]

100% agree with you! My mistake not being more specific but the problem was I remember from other conversations that the people ( I know it’s kinda weird ) that don’t buy dlc didn’t want the rarity of the dlc to be that low cause other profiles will have a lot of UR trophies so in case of a rarity leaderboard they will have the advantage or simply didn’t think it was right!

[pogo_loco]

I'm all for renovating the dlc owners system.  Unfortunately my support has as much value as an Ultra Rare trophy...

 

Edited September 20, 2021 by pogo_loco

[AihaLoveleaf]

Fake DLC rarity is a problem because it means that countless trophies are being inaccurately represented in people's statistics. Considering that DLC trophies are often more challenging or tedious than the base game, it fails to even accomplish the task of making the rarities of those trophies "feel right".

 

Every time I open up a trophy page to check out the DLC trophies, I immediately use PSNP+'s Global Rarity toggle to filter out the default ratings. 

[Arcesius]

8 hours ago, Reinachii- said:

I saw in 2013 the way dlc owners is calculated changed - owners are anyone who earns 1 trophy now instead of people who own the game.

I struggle to see the argument as to why this is a good idea. 

 

That's actually not true. The number of DLC owners is computed as the Geometric Mean between all base game owner and the number of players that have achieved at least one trophy in the DLC. It's a made-up number, which is even worse than what you wrote. 

 

If you want to get rid of fake DLC-rarities, @AihaLoveleaf showed you how!  

 

[zid2016]

Different groups argue for what makes their profile stats looks better. If you want an actual realistic rarity rates of  trophies ,use the psn rates as it includes whole population instead of these small sample sizes that each of these trophy tracking sites have. But, that will make most trophies rare and certain groups of players will get mad about it. In my opinion, the formula that is being used is better than the alternatives being suggested in previous threads about this topic.

[Reinachii-]

7 hours ago, zid2016 said:

Different groups argue for what makes their profile stats looks better. If you want an actual realistic rarity rates of  trophies ,use the psn rates as it includes whole population instead of these small sample sizes that each of these trophy tracking sites have. But, that will make most trophies rare and certain groups of players will get mad about it. In my opinion, the formula that is being used is better than the alternatives being suggested in previous threads about this topic.

Well, psn rates are the worst to use as although it is all players, it includes hackers and people who don'teven know what a trophy is. 

 

You say this is the best formula, why?

[zid2016]

42 minutes ago, Reinachii- said:

Well, psn rates are the worst to use as although it is all players, it includes hackers and people who don'teven know what a trophy is. 

 

You say this is the best formula, why?

 

Because ,it acts as a middle ground between players who want only dlc owners to count towards rarity and players who want all game owners included in dlc rarity.

[Reinachii-]

28 minutes ago, zid2016 said:

 

Because ,it acts as a middle ground between players who want only dlc owners to count towards rarity and players who want all game owners included in dlc rarity.

Cant tell if you are trolling.

 

It's not middle ground if it conforms only to those who want only "dlc owners" to count.

[zid2016]

9 minutes ago, Reinachii- said:

Cant tell if you are trolling.

 

It's not middle ground if it conforms only to those who want only "dlc owners" to count.

 

I'm not here to argue with you about dlc rarity. You asked why I think it's better and I gave you my honest opinion about it.

[DaivRules]

On 9/19/2021 at 6:10 AM, Reinachii- said:

1. Most dlc adds extra elements to a game, not just extra stages. For example Bioshock 2. In Bioshock 2 there is a trophy for reaching level 40 in multiplayer. It sits at 7.19%. In the dlc there is a trophy that requires "rebirth"(prestige). This means level 50. This sits at 12.31% rarity. 

 

More "owners" reached level 50 and rebirth than owners reached level 40. Huh?

 

I think this aspect doesn't have anything to do with changing the DLC rarity calculation, but rather seems to be two points. A - People should play DLC because it "adds extra elements".

B - Your example misunderstands the data points you're referring to. The rarity of DLC is based on the number of DLC owners, just as the rarity of base game trophies are based on base game owners. "Choose the Impossible" (Achieved Rank 40) has 7.18% rarity, based on 300,994 owners meaning 21,611 people have earned it. "Reincarnation" (Use Rebirth to start again!) has 12.31% rarity, based on 5,772 owners, meaning 710 people have earned it. 

 

On 9/19/2021 at 6:10 AM, Reinachii- said:

2. Trophy rarity "discrepancy" - most difficult dlc rarely has ultra rare trophies because the only owners who buy it are the ones who know they can do it majority of the time. Where as a lot of easy dlc has Ultra rare trophies because a lot of people buy the dlc. This point is hard to argue; you may ask: "if its easy and lots of people buy it, how is it UR?" 

 

Lets use firstly Warhammer 40k for the ps3. Anyone who has played the DLC knows that it isnt the easiest task to complete. The trophies being "Heretic" and "Let the Heavens Bleed" these require you to finish the invasion bonus wave in a coop match. Neither of these trophies are UR. But, they should be. If you're skilled enough you may earn these trophies in 1~3 hours. Most will take numerous attempts over several days. 

 

Now let's look at Need for Speed Most Wanted. There are a few UR trophies in the DLCs, although a little grindy(most can be idled...) they are not difficult at all. The reason they are UR is likely because the owners got the DLC for the extra cars and mods. 

 

There are plently of other examples of this. 

 

I see a lot of people argue this is a good system because it allows their rarest trophies be plats. Not everyone thinks this way. Even with this system you will struggle to find anyone with 5 plats in their top 5. 

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. You're saying people are buying DLC based on the DLC itself and not because of the associated difficulty - 40k because they're do into the game they do all the hard stuff too, NFS:MW because the DLC has other things they're interested in like extra cars and mods. Again, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with changing the DLC rarity calculation.

 

What renovation are you proposing exactly and what are the pros/cons of your proposal?

 

[ladynadiad]

The thing is, there really isn't going to be a good system here.  The reason why it's so hard to get an accurate owners count is that outside of earning a trophy in a DLC, there is no way for PSNP to be aware that a player owns the DLC.  I've always founds this odd because it should be pretty clear to PSN who does or does not own DLC.  Either it comes with a GOTY version and ownership could be noted when the game is started or they buy it on the PSN store and ownership can be noted upon purchase or when the player starts the base game.

 

It's something that has always made no sense to me why platforms don't make it clear who does or does not own DLC and counts stats for DLC based off all owners.  Steam does this too.  Not 100% sure about Xbox, but I'm almost positive they do the same.  I think it would be a benefit for people to be able to see which of their friends have a DLC and to be able to give rarity that actually reflects rarity based on who owns it.  I'd think that would give devs and publishers better statistics as well in regards to DLC because rarity can give some clues about what players like and don't like.

[pogo_loco]

Why make this complicated?  I believe the original post meant to propose simply using the Base Game owners as the denominator for calculating DLC completion percentages.  That makes sense -- no need to guess how many people own the DLC, no need to track versions that come pre-loaded with DLC, just a simple percentage of Base Game owners who earned a DLC trophy.  It puts DLC trophies on the same spectrum as Base Game trophies.

 

And I'm sure this idea has been proposed before.  And I'm equally sure this thread will meet the same fate as its predecessors.

 

[AJ_Radio]

I don't want the system to go back to how it was prior to 2017, when DLC packs with one trophy to them were always 100%, regardless of what you had to do to obtain said trophy. Batman: Arkham Knight had a whole bunch of these trophies because a lot of the DLC packs only have one trophy died to them, such as the Red Hood and Harley Quinn story packs.

 

Still remember the trophy for beating Uncharted: Drake's Fortune Remastered on Brutal difficulty being absurdly high. It was already difficult even if you used the tweaks because enemies practically two shotted you on most occasions. Under the current system, that trophy has a far lower percentage, which I feel is a much more accurate representation of how hard and frustrating it was to earn it.

 

This isn't a perfect system, but I prefer the system in place now as opposed to the DLC system we had years ago.

[Conker]

The system now is the best, the amount of times we have had this discussion is ridicolous, previous way was terrible and so in-accurate, would you rather have a system that wasn't accurate or one now that is?

 

or lets just use PSN and everything be 0.1%  

[Reinachii-]

14 hours ago, DaivRules said:

 

I think this aspect doesn't have anything to do with changing the DLC rarity calculation, but rather seems to be two points. A - People should play DLC because it "adds extra elements".

B - Your example misunderstands the data points you're referring to. The rarity of DLC is based on the number of DLC owners, just as the rarity of base game trophies are based on base game owners. "Choose the Impossible" (Achieved Rank 40) has 7.18% rarity, based on 300,994 owners meaning 21,611 people have earned it. "Reincarnation" (Use Rebirth to start again!) has 12.31% rarity, based on 5,772 owners, meaning 710 people have earned it. 

 

 

I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. You're saying people are buying DLC based on the DLC itself and not because of the associated difficulty - 40k because they're do into the game they do all the hard stuff too, NFS:MW because the DLC has other things they're interested in like extra cars and mods. Again, this doesn't seem to have anything to do with changing the DLC rarity calculation.

 

What renovation are you proposing exactly and what are the pros/cons of your proposal?

 

Thats my point, you stated for me. 21,000 people earned level 40. 710 people earned level 50. Level 50 is a more common trophy. This doesnt make sense. It shouldn't matter whether or not its calculated based on if only 5000 people bought the dlc or not. 

 

My point about warhammer vs most wanted -  even if both games had 100000 base game players,  the players who would buy the warhammer dlc are only the ones skilled enough or care enough to get the trophies; its just a Multiplayer horde mode. Vs the ones who would buy the MW DLC because it gives them new skins/ cars etc. The numbers skew in favor of MW which creates rarer trophies, having nothing to do with difficulty or time. 

 

I propose having all dlc owners the same as base game owners. That would show real rarity of all trophies. The same as psn I believe? 

 

100000 people bought the game, 5000 did the dlc, why does it matter if someone bought the dlc or not?

Edited September 21, 2021 by Reinachii-

[AJ_Radio]

12 minutes ago, Reinachii- said:

Thats my point, you stated for me. 21,000 people earned level 40. 710 people earned level 50. Level 50 is a more common trophy. This doesnt make sense. It shouldn't matter whether or not its calculated based on if only 5000 people bought the dlc or not. 

 

My point about warhammer vs most wanted -  even if both games had 100000 base game players,  the players who would buy the warhammer dlc are only the ones skilled enough or care enough to get the trophies; its just a Multiplayer raid mode. Vs the ones who would buy the MW DLC because it gives them new skins/ cars etc. The numbers skew in favor of MW which creates rarer trophies, having nothing to do with difficulty or time. 

 

I propose having all dlc owners the same as base game owners. That would show real rarity of all trophies. The same as psn I believe? 

 

100000 people bought the game, 5000 did the dlc, why does it matter if someone bought the dlc or not?

 

Regardless, this is not going to be an easy solution to implement. The system that was in place when I first joined up on this website was based on the number of owners who earned at least one trophy in the DLC pack. That was why games like Batman: Arkham Knight had a lot of 100% trophies, because it has a bunch of DLC with only one trophy attached to them. It was a very unfair representation of the overall time and difficulty one had to take to earn that said trophy.

 

Despite the fact DLC has been around for a solid 10 - 15 years, I still don't like it. I don't like paying more for a game that should of had that content as part of the base game. I have always felt that way and I feel that buying $40 - 50 Season Passes like Ubisoft likes to shove at its playerbase screams greed. Most AAA games nowadays automatically come with DLC because these corporations know they can sucker more money out of us.

 

I suggest not adopting the system PSN has, because obviously as it turns out, most people aren't trophy hunters. Most Madden games have a lot of rare trophies even though those trophies are not that difficult to obtain at all. This is due to the vast majority of people playing Madden to play online with their friends. Same with Call of Duty, although some games like Call of Duty: Black Ops III are known for being very difficult.

 

I believe making changes to the current system using some suggestions will help make it better, rather than completely taking that out for a new one. Making a drastic change to put an entirely new system in place is going to separate this community more than it's going to bring us closer together.

 

Ultimately though, I think some people want this system changed or removed so they will have more rare trophies on their profiles. Like I said, there is no easy solution, but the entire rarity argument concerning DLC trophies has to be one of the most dumbfounded debates I've seen here in a long time, for all the wrong reasons.

Edited September 21, 2021 by AJ_Radio

[pogo_loco]

1 hour ago, AJ_Radio said:

I don't want the system to go back to how it was prior to 2017, when DLC packs with one trophy to them were always 100%, regardless of what you had to do to obtain said trophy. Batman: Arkham Knight had a whole bunch of these trophies because a lot of the DLC packs only have one trophy died to them, such as the Red Hood and Harley Quinn story packs.

 

Wow, what's up with this math?  Each of these DLC has one trophy, and Owners == Achievers, yet completion percentages are far below 100%. 
 

Batman Arkham Knight - DLC Pack 2 - Harley Quinn Story pack - 135,903 Owners -  135,903 Achievers - 48.55% Completion percentage

Batman Arkham Knight - DLC Pack 3 - Red Hood Story pack - 90,160 Owners - 90,160 Achievers - 39.55% Completion percentage

Batman Arkham Knight - DLC Pack 4 - Scarecrow Nightmare Missions - 68,338 Owners - 68,338 Achievers - 34.43% Completion percentage

Batman Arkham Knight - DLC Pack 5 - 1989 Movie Pack - 13,222 Owners - 13,222 Achievers - 15.14% Completion percentage

Batman Arkham Knight - DLC Pack 6 - 2008 Tumbler Batmobile Pack - 11,913 Owners - 11,913 Achievers - 14.38% Completion percentage

Batman Arkham Knight - DLC Pack 7 - GCPD Lockdown - 52,422 Owners - 52,422 Achievers - 30.16% Completion percentage

Batman Arkham Knight - DLC Pack  8 - 1960’s TV Series Pack - 11,619 Owners - 11,619 Achievers - 14.20% Completion percentage

Batman Arkham Knight - DLC Pack  9 - Catwoman's Revenge - 45,172 Owners - 45,172 Achievers - 27.99% Completion percentage

Batman Arkham Knight - DLC Pack  10 - A Flip of a Coin  - 47,345 Owners - 47,345 Achievers - 28.66% Completion percentage

Batman Arkham Knight - DLC Pack  11 - 2016 Batman v Superman Batmobile Pack - 13,304 Owners - 13,304 Achievers - 15.19% Completion percentage

Batman Arkham Knight - DLC Pack  15 - Original Arkham Batmobile - 11,614 Owners - 11,614 Achievers - 14.19% Completion percentage

 

Anyone know the math behind this math?

 

[FilmFanatic]

55 minutes ago, pogo_loco said:

Anyone know the math behind this math?

DLC rarity is calculated using a geometric mean. If you use DLC owners as people who have earned a trophy for that DLC then the rarities are going to be ultra common. If you calculate it using base game owners as DLC owners then everything is ultra rare. It was changed to using a geometric mean to try and satiate both camps since there was never a majority who wanted it one way over the other. The only way DLC rarities will be accurate is if Sony lets PSNP pull data on who actually owns the DLC. For some games this is a no brainer like The Last Of Us Remastered comes with all DLC or free DLC can be calculated from base game owners but everything else would need Sony telling PSNP who has bought what DLC even if they haven’t earnt a trophy or even installed it which I doubt will ever happen.

[EqualityEarth]

On 9/19/2021 at 3:10 AM, Reinachii- said:

I see a lot of people argue this is a good system because it allows their rarest trophies be plats. Not everyone thinks this way. Even with this system you will struggle to find anyone with 5 plats in their top 5.

Not opposed to platinums being excluded from the rarest trophies list (despite them not tending to show up on top 5). Not just because platinums are more of a broad achievement (I’m not sure if another platform does a standardized “achievement for all achievements” like the PSN platinum) but also they don’t necessarily conjure what it took to get them for any given person glancing your rarest trophies. Unless 100% of a game’s trophies are equally super hard to get, it’s the specific trophies (often 1 or 2 in the list which players generally know are the hardest trophies) that warrant the spotlight. I mean if people want to show off plats they have the trophy cabinet, though I would still use that for trophies which stood out for me despite not being as rare. I will say I came across a profile where the guy interestingly makes all of his milestones platinums.

 

Oh yeah, and sometimes DLC gets delisted even ones related to trophies ?‍♂️ so I’m sure that helps too for those who didn’t get it.