Opinion piece regarding difficulty / "cheesing"

[that_dude_cam_ps 154]

Opinion piece regarding difficulty in Elden Ring:

tl;dr - Playing the game using any combination of mechanics availble to you is not "cheesing" the game in any sense of the word.

 

To preface, I’m not here to complain about how hard the game is. I’ve played Bloodborne (100%), Demon’s Souls Remake (plat) and Sekiro (plat), so I definitely have enough experience in FromSoftware titles regarding difficulty. I’m also not here to tell people to “git gud”, or any other gate-keeper BS. No, this is about the term “cheesing” and how it’s being misused in the context of this amazing game.

 

I'm 155 hours in, currently at level 141. I’ve just made my way into the snowy mountains and up to the first Minor Erdtree, so I’m getting close to finishing it. Yesterday, I decided to bounce back to Volcano Manor to take on Rykard (I won’t spoil anything else), which I avoided earlier on. In any case, it was getting late and I was pretty tired and frustrated, barely having died at all the last 25+ hours. So after disintegrating about 15 times and wasting a dozen or so rune arcs, I decided to do something drastic, something naughty, something unthinkable: For the second phase of the fight, I summoned my max level Mimic Tear. And guess what? Together we beat the boss immediately and it was… underwhelmingly easy. But so what?

 

Now, I know what a lot of you are thinking:

“That’s because using the Mimic Tear is cheating anyway”, or

“Only fake gamers use the Serpent-Hunter”, or

“I beat that boss as a Level 1 wretch with my bare hands, you Souls-noob!!!”

 

How do I know this? Well, this morning I was casually skimming the trophy guide, just, you know, killing time as one does, when I stumbled across the tactics for this particular boss fight. I had not previously read any of this, since I don’t rely on trophy guides for that kind of thing (just missables and obscure questlines), but let me tell you, I was outraged when I read I had supposedly “cheesed” this boss fight. Well, according to the guide writer, in any case.

 

Alright, let’s just all calm down for a second and get some things straight: I have not farmed a single rune in this game. I have explored every inch of this map unguided, scouring the deepest and darkest corners of caves, mines, and catacombs to find the upgrade materials needed to level up my weapons and spirit ashes of choice (really just the one). I have a ridiculous plethora of spells and incantations and ashes of war that I have never even touched. I’ve been rocking my dodge-rolling power-stancing dex melee build since day one and I haven’t played a second of co-op. I have a maxed Mimic Tear, that I’ve called upon all of three times. I beat Radahn mano e mano with nothing but the blades in my hand and the sweat on my controller. And yet, it has been decided by this guide writer, this judge of gaming guidelines that I “cheesed” this boss fight.

 

I completely disagree. And so should you.

 

Did the upgraded Serpent-Hunter peel off huge chunks of its health bar? Yes, it did. But the spirit dude in the hallway in Volcano Manor literally tells to use it specifically to kill Rykard. How is that “cheesing” the boss?

 

Did the Mimic Tear I summoned to open the second phase of the fight, immediately start pounding Rykard with the weapon skill in unison with me? Oh yeah, big time. But I found the Mimic Tear fair and square. I upgraded the Mimic Tear to the max with the materials I procured from across the map. FromSoft granted me the Mimic Tear to use whenever it’s available to me as I see fit. How is that “cheesing” the boss?

 

Did the combination of an activated Great Rune, using the Flask of Wondrous Physick, four Talismans etc. make my character unreasonably OP? Honestly, not really. The boss hits pretty hard, y’all. So how is that "cheesing" the boss?

 

Look, what I’m trying to say is: Elden Ring is not a traditional Soulslike. It looks like one, it plays like one, but it doesn’t always feel like one. Between the builds, the skills, the spirit ashes, the summons etc., you can really self-regulate the difficulty level. Whereas in Sekiro, beating bosses is generally speaking a feat of pure skill, unadulterated by over-leveling or weapon-scaling etc. – Elden Ring is almost a polar-opposite approach to that. This game literally lets you customize and tailor your player experience. Even in Bloodborne, the only real option to beat a boss you’re stuck on, is to farm blood echoes to over-level your character (which, on the other hand, is kind of “cheesy” because it is not really an intended gameplay mechanic, but really wtfc). In Elden Ring, there is really no reason to farm runes at all, as you have so many options available to succeed and progress, it’s overwhelming and liberating at the same time.

 

In conclusion, having cleared the entirety of Leyndell, the Royal Capital and the Forbidden Lands without dying once, I reject the notion that for once deciding to deploy my hard-earned max. level Mimic Tear against a hard-hitting main boss in conjunction with the weapon recommended by the game’s NPC and provided in said boss arena is “cheesing” in any way, shape or form. Was it easier that way? Of course, and it’s supposed to be. But that’s ok. That’s what FromSoft has allowed and designed this game to be: As hard or easy as you want it to be in any given situation. People need to stop calling it “cheesing” or even “cheating” when you’re literally just playing the game the way the devs intend for and encourage you to. It’s annoying, condescending and frankly ridiculous.

 

So, gamers, go get your bleed build on, get your mage build on, get your poison build on. Whatever mechanics you need to combine and rely on to beat this game, don’t let anyone make you feel bad about it. And to everyone perpetuating this BS stance, just stop.

 

Everybody, go out, enjoy the exploration and the combat however you feel like!

 

#ELDENRINGGOTY2022

 

[DaivRules 13,434]

Aren’t guides just one big way to cheese a whole game?

 

[that_dude_cam_ps 154]

Just now, DaivRules said:

Aren’t guides just one big way to cheese a whole game?

 

If that's your take, then maybe you're part of the problem........ 

Game guides have existed since the NES in one form or another. They're meant to "guide" you through a game, not "cheese" a game. A guide could literally just state "you have to beat this boss to progress" and still constitute a guide, albeit a shitty and useless one. Going into strats and details obvisouly makes a guide better and actually worth writing / reading.

 

I just fundamentally disagree with the term "cheesing" in the context of using mechanics your're meant to use. And it's thrown around a lot regarding this game.

[DaivRules 13,434]

Just now, that_dude_cam_ps said:

part of the problem

That might be true because it sounds like this is just your problem with the word cheese and how you’re interpreting it. 
 

Cheese, the way I read it, just means simplify. You seem to be taking it as a personal insult.

 

[Alayaes 324]

Essentially, the way you enjoy a video game you purchased does not need validation from anyone other than yourself. I used to play GTA as a kid by just driving around causing mayhem. I never did a single mission; just input the cheats and wreak havoc. There was no internet forum easily available to me back then to tell me I was doing it "wrong" but it didn't matter anyway; my game, my fun.

 

The online metaverse of today has caused people to put way too much emphasis on the opinion of perfect strangers across the globe. While it's never a bad thing to evaluate your actions via the respected opinions of others, there comes a point in time where you just have to completely quit giving a shit.

[that_dude_cam_ps 154]

4 minutes ago, DaivRules said:

That might be true because it sounds like this is just your problem with the word cheese and how you’re interpreting it. 
 

Cheese, the way I read it, just means simplify. You seem to be taking it as a personal insult.

 

No, I'm not personally insulted. I think we both know that the connotations of the term "cheese" are indisputably inherently negative.

The guide writer literally calls the strat "the cheesy way". I don't think there's much room for interpretation, as to say its diminishing the way you beat the boss, even thought you're literally just playing the game as intended. In general I think the word is a problematic part of the larger "git gud" mentality ingrained in Soulsborne culture that seeks undermine non-purist accomplishments.

 

But we can just agree to disagree.

[craig_obviously 372]

If you are using a legitimate mechanic or combination of mechanics provided by the designers within the game... well.. then people can say whatever they want, who gives a fuck.. the less weight you give to someones opinion other than your own the better off you will be.... opinions are like assholes....everybody's got one.

[that_dude_cam_ps 154]

5 minutes ago, Alayaes said:

Essentially, the way you enjoy a video game you purchased does not need validation from anyone other than yourself. I used to play GTA as a kid by just driving around causing mayhem. I never did a single mission; just input the cheats and wreak havoc. There was no internet forum easily available to me back then to tell me I was doing it "wrong" but it didn't matter anyway; my game, my fun.

 

The online metaverse of today has caused people to put way too much emphasis on the opinion of perfect strangers across the globe. While it's never a bad thing to evaluate your actions via the respected opinions of others, there comes a point in time where you just have to completely quit giving a shit.

I completely agree. But I'd still also like to see / hear less condenscending terminology and elitist mentality in general.

[DrBloodmoney 17,970]

Don't worry about that kind of bullshit - enjoy your games how you want to play them.

 

The idea that using in-game items or in-game builds being "Cheesing" is asinine anyways - it ignores the idea that making a build, and figuring out which items are more or less powerful is part of the game - simply playing the combat with perfect parry-timing or learning enemy patterns to perfection isn't the be-all and end-all. 

 

To be honest, I played Elden Ring without looking at guides - just chatting with others doing the same  - and discovered, through us all experimenting with the game, that bleed was a good build, and that mimic tear was OP...

...and that's part of the experience!

 

That stuff is in the game, and figuring out that it is a good path to victory is part of that journey.

The fact that guides and online help has trivialised that discovery period, or marginalised the path to finding that information... well, that is a different story, and a different argument.

 

If someone want's to argue that looking at a guide is contrary to the spirit of the game, I'm willing to give that argument some time...

...but if they are going to make the argument that using the best in game items to beat the in game enemies is wrong...

...they can get it up 'em. 😂

 

That would be the equivalent of someone saying:

 

"Poker is a fun game, but if you win with a flush or a straight... well, that's cheesing. Git gud and take the pot with a jack high, Scrub!".

Edited May 19 by DrBloodmoney

[that_dude_cam_ps 154]

2 minutes ago, craig_obviously said:

If you are using a legitimate mechanic or combination of mechanics provided by the designers within the game... well.. then people can say whatever they want, who gives a fuck.. the less weight you give to someones opinion other than your own the better off you will be.... opinions are like assholes....everybody's got one.

100% agree. Just stating my opinion on the matter. Like you / I already said: making the game easier on yourself by using the mechanics in the inteded way is completely legit.

1 minute ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

That would be the equivalent of someone saying:

 

"Poker is a fun game, but if you win with a flush or a straight... well, that's cheesing. Git gud and win with a jack high, Scrub!".

looooool this thank you. and no, I'm not worried about what other people say, I'm just tired of the pseudo elitist terminolgy and attitudes out there.

[visighost 1,261]

I get what you're saying, though I'm not personally offended by the term. I think the topic ties it to the new acceptance of easy mode: it certainly seems like every media outlet is publishing something along the line that playing on the easiest difficulty setting is fine. The average gamer is getting older, has less time/a family/more commitments, and shorter games that don't force you to pour hundreds of hours in to "git gud" are seeing a (critical) renaissance. Call it being more time-efficient, call it cheese. As long as you're having fun! (speaking as someone who poured in 40h in Elden Ring adlib-ing a bit on the 100% walkthrough here and still getting my ass handed to me by random mobs).

[DaivRules 13,434]

26 minutes ago, that_dude_cam_ps said:

the connotations of the term "cheese" are indisputably inherently negative.

 

26 minutes ago, that_dude_cam_ps said:

But we can just agree to disagree.

 

At that, we're certainly going to have to.

 

[enaysoft 4,222]

Wut lol. Cheesing is sometimes half the fun. Exploiting the AI or trying to get the AI stuck on the scenery so you can poke them in the back, isn't that the best bit?

 

On Elden Ring. There was a dark horse battle in the heavy snow area region and I had fun shooting at him from on top of a highish stone bridge, until he was dead.

Granted, I had to use about 300 arrows and I almost died several times since he can still get at you, unless you retreat back at the last moment as he jumping attacks.

Watching him run around with Rot draining away his health for 25% of it or so. Whether that was cheese or not I don't know, but I had bloody good fun anyway. I look forward to doing it again on NG+

[Copanele 14,930]

I think the term "cheese" has been lost in translation in these games. Apparently if you don't finish the game while tap dancing and having hammers thrown at you, you "didn't do it legit".

Yeah Souls community is fun like that  

 

Using a mechanic given by the game is not cheese. Lord and Savior Miyazaki himself encourages co-op and stuff. If the entire game can be done via Rivers of Blood, why not using it?Plus the weapon looks sick so...

2 minutes ago, enaysoft said:

Wut lol. Cheesing is sometimes half the fun. Exploiting the AI or trying to get the AI stuck on the scenery so you can poke them in the back, isn't that the best bit?

 

Precisely that  it's so damn fun to see the unga bunga boss that ass blasted your runes to oblivion to die from smelly arrows x200.

 

But regardless, I think that cheesing is when you use an exploit that the devs did not intend, via a bug most of the time.

Example 1 - in Demon's Souls, the original PS3 game, you could shoot one of the Maneaters through the fog gate and kill him before you even started the fight.

Example 2 - in Dark Souls, instead of fighting the dreaded Capra Demon, you could throw poop over the archway and kill him via poisoning.

Example 3 - Dark Souls again, Manus can be cheesed via arrows by shooting him in the Abyss (both literally and figuratively speaking  )

Example 4 - Elden Ring, the Fire Giant has a "I've fallen and I can't get up" moment if you lure him off the cliff.

 

The list can go on 😂 that's the cheddar of the highest quality in Souls games.

[DrBloodmoney 17,970]

2 minutes ago, Copanele said:

I think the term "cheese" has been lost in translation in these games. Apparently if you don't finish the game while tap dancing and having hammers thrown at you, you "didn't do it legit".

Yeah Souls community is fun like that  

 

Using a mechanic given by the game is not cheese. Lord and Savior Miyazaki himself encourages co-op and stuff. If the entire game can be done via Rivers of Blood, why not using it?Plus the weapon looks sick so...

Precisely that  it's so damn fun to see the unga bunga boss that ass blasted your runes to oblivion to die from smelly arrows x200.

 

But regardless, I think that cheesing is when you use an exploit that the devs did not intend, via a bug most of the time.

Example 1 - in Demon's Souls, the original PS3 game, you could shoot one of the Maneaters through the fog gate and kill him before you even started the fight.

Example 2 - in Dark Souls, instead of fighting the dreaded Capra Demon, you could throw poop over the archway and kill him via poisoning.

Example 3 - Dark Souls again, Manus can be cheesed via arrows by shooting him in the Abyss (both literally and figuratively speaking  )

Example 4 - Elden Ring, the Fire Giant has a "I've fallen and I can't get up" moment if you lure him off the cliff.

 

The list can go on  that's the cheddar of the highest quality in Souls games.

 

 

Not to mention in Demon's Souls, when you could run up virtually any long flight of stairs and watch the powerful enemies fall over the edge when they followed you 😂

 

In fairness, folks can call that cheese if they want...

 

... but if I was wandering around a scary castle, armed with a broken sword and a wooden shield, and I saw a heavily armoured horror from beyond the depths of human comprehension, and it started chasing me with a giant butcher's knife or a mace the size of a Volkswagen in real life...

 

...I'm pretty sure I'd run like fuck and hope they tripped over their own feet and fell down the stairs too! 😂

[Infected Elite 6,385]

1 hour ago, DaivRules said:

That might be true because it sounds like this is just your problem with the word cheese and how you’re interpreting it. 
 

Cheese, the way I read it, just means simplify. You seem to be taking it as a personal insult.

 

 

Honestly probably not worth the time to debate. Too many people see things only one way.

 

cheese in gaming definition:

Cheesing is video-game slang for beating tasks or enemies through tactics that while not exactly cheating, are certainly not following Queensbury rules. When you cheese a game, you're exploiting systemic quirks or apparent design oversights to gain maximum advantage for minimum skill or effort.

 

So in Elden Ring, when i let one of the evergaol bosses get stuck in a corner doing backflips while i whacked away till he did, i cheesed it but i didnt cheat.

[Lonemankane 1,146]

You see the term cheesing is as old as time. As someone who cheats in a game such as say contra to get the 30 life code could be seen as cheesing. Another form of cheesing is using guides or knowing before hand info of something or getting help from others.

 

For me I don't care I try to enjoy myself as much as I can with any game I trophy hunt. Take for example 7 days to die. there was once a glitch that let you dup any time in the game. the first thing I duped was the rarest item in the game at the time not sure now but that being the army vest and the hazmat suit I found the parts of.

 

Also used said glitch on dupping vit pills to get the trophies a lot easier. the bug was removed afew patches later but still was a good glitch and helped and people can call that cheesing or the fact I had to basically get another player for the last part of dead space 3s final boss as I have a bug that basically kills me making getting the hardcore mode trophy impossible but due to having a friend they got me to bypass the bug and do the trophy.

 

For me I say do what you want with any game only time I say it is a no go is if your planning to use trophy unlockers to get trophies to just get onto a higher up point on the leaderboards and or use aimbot/ turbo controllers for online pvp modes as it is in my eyes the only time any action is a kick in the head to people who went and done them things normally/ using in game ways and so on. but that is my view point on the matter.

 

 

Edit: Forgot to put in that another way of cheeseing I have been bashed for is using the poor ai or path finding of a game to beat it for example. If you play White day you can use trigger points to make the janitor disappear like in school building 2 if you have the code to the office all the code types and so on you can just use it and bypass having to open a door that is meant to pop in the janitor in that part of the game so you can use that trigger point/ cutscene to basically make him disappear if you need a breather or fast getaway.

 

Things like that can also be done in other games I mean I even done the same with kingdom come. basically ran around the starting part of the game and farmed the guy you need to beat up in his house for stealth and hand to hand skill and the cows in the field for weapon levels yes it is boring but it helped me in the long run but it took 100 plus hours to do this.

Edited May 19 by Lonemankane

[Beyondthegrave07 10,401]

I think when a lot of people use the term "cheesing, " it underminds the idea that, in a lot of cases, a lot of effort was put into the game to be able to beat bosses easily and efficiently. To me, killing powerful bosses quickly after spending hours getting the ideal weapons, armor, and upgrades is just the fruits of your labor. That's not cheesing to me. Cheesing to me would be getting stuck under the map and being able to kill a boss because that probably wasn't put there on purpose.

 

However, I could not care less what someone else calls it. And I don't care what someone else says either about a particular strategy. Whether I beat the game using the beginning weapons and armor, find the most efficient method possible, or shoot arrows into an enemy under the map through a glitch, it doesn't matter. It's not like I have to explain to anyone how I play the games and if I do and someone gets judgy about it, so what?.

 

And I think that would be my advice here. Don't focus too much on one word or what someone calls a particular strategy and play games how you want. There's no reason to be outraged over what some guide says.

Edited May 19 by Beyondthegrave07

[Stardroid 3,031]

It's been a long time since I cringed like this. If I were you I would submit this brilliant piece and find an editor willing to publish you to the wider public. 

[Alayaes 324]

1 hour ago, Beyondthegrave07 said:

I think when a lot of people use the term "cheesing, " it underminds the idea that, in a lot of cases, a lot of effort was put into the game to be able to beat bosses easily and efficiently. To me, killing powerful bosses quickly after spending hours getting the ideal weapons, armor, and upgrades is just the fruits of your labor. That's not cheesing to me. Cheesing to me would be getting stuck under the map and being able to kill a boss because that probably wasn't put there on purpose.

The latter actually sounds fun to me. That little high you get when you seemingly get a little wind in your sails that was unintended is addicting.

 

Especially on NG+ runs, I'll rawdog that cow until it simply can't produce another drop of milk for the cheese factory.

[technole 84]

There are pockets of weirdos who seem to find the joy in keyboard gatekeeping and elitism, like they actually felt like they played the game 'better' or something. ER gives player a ton of options and people are going to find what works for them for maximum enjoyment. You can even change your stats 7 times in a play through if you want, you are introduced at the concept early in the game for that matter. What about the fact they designed more fights with multiple bosses, hence summons available. If you bring real players into your game, the bosses are beefier to make up for the extra hands. There is more mobs with magic resistance in this game than any previous FromSoft title.

 

My favorite non-sense are those who keep saying you have to put a ton of points in VIgor like it's gospel. No, it just adds more threshold for getting hit or PvP antics. If you are a quick learner, you'll get by with much less and can do more damage early. The best mitigation is killing the darn thing faster. Sure, eventually you'll reach stat soft caps in this game and then it's better to then toss more in Vigor and other stats.

 

The tide is changing as Elden Ring is a mainstream game, their games are no longer niche when it sells more copies than CoD Vanguard.

 

[Beyondthegrave07 10,401]

19 minutes ago, Alayaes said:

The latter actually sounds fun to me. That little high you get when you seemingly get a little wind in your sails that was unintended is addicting.

 

Especially on NG+ runs, I'll rawdog that cow until it simply can't produce another drop of milk for the cheese factory.

And to me, there's nothing, NOTHING wrong with it. If you have fun, who cares how you do it? Play games however you want.

[StygianWolf4 2,867]

Don't mind me, just here for the Elden Brie.

[Elegy 130]

There are always going to be people who don't agree with another person's way of overcoming challenges.  No real reason to try to convince anyone that your method is worthwhile or not.  Most of the people who gatekeep are just doing it because they need to feel superior to other people who are accomplishing the same things as them.  They need to invalidate other people's achievements so that theirs still seems worthy of bragging rights or aren't that common.  A lot of people in the gaming community place significant value in beating or getting all trophies in From Software games for some reason so they tend to be among the worst for this.  These games give so many options to the player to make the content easy.. and that doesn't even get into the actual "cheese" like duplication exploits, having people drop items for you in MP, having people do content for you in MP, abusing the AI so that it gets stuck or can't fight properly or whatever else.  There is an easy way to do everything in every From Software game in their post Demon's Souls era.  I place pretty much no "bragging rights" value in achieving plat or completing any of these games as they are on the low end in difficulty in the action game genre.  Kena Bridge of Spirits is harder on master difficulty just to give an example of what I mean.

 

I think the most reasonable response is to just not pay any mind to people who don't think you're as good as them at any given game.  I got people calling me out for being bad at Nioh because I posted a video showing a very OP build I made shortly after the game released tearing through the hardest mission in the game with ease.  It didn't matter to me at all as I only posted that because I wanted people to see that the game wasn't as hard as its reputation would have people believe.  Ultimately, a lot of people just don't like it when others find ways to do things more easily than they did.

 

Edited May 19 by Elegy

[Quink666 2,413]

Simply put using using anything the game offers can’t be considered cheesing. Cheesing is when you circumvent the fog gate and the boss just stands still while you whack away or when you force the boss to jump to his own death like Demon of Hatred in Sekiro. 
 

 

Edited May 19 by Quink666