EA joins Sony in call for inclusivity

[Darling Baphomet]

4 minutes ago, Alayaes said:

I have not once claimed that representation makes me upset. Literally quite the opposite, in fact. My very first post stated that I was annoyed when companies come across as condescending in the pursuit of profits under the guise of social media inclusion posts. I believe they're disingenuous and served as distractions. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else?

 

Sigh.

 

2 hours ago, Alayaes said:

The problem that I have is not the message; it's the fact that I'm being hit over the head with it constantly under the guise of "awareness". That implies that I'm not yet aware, and through their efforts said awareness is consequentially raised.

 

I don't want my gaming companies, or any other businesses for that matter, constantly telling me that being part of LGBT is not a bad thing, that racism is wrong, and that equal rights across genders are something to strive for. I know all these things already, yet they present it in a way that comes across as if it's informing me of some new revelation. I find that condescending and annoying. As if I'm subtly being accused of something and I require correction.

 

Imagine going to Petsmart, and whenever you check out the lady at the register tells you "hey, just reminding you that animal cruelty is bad". Ok, I know that. Why are you telling me this? Do you feel that I needed to hear that? Or when you drop off your child at school, some person comes to you and says "hey, just a PSA, beating up your kid is wrong". No shit? What are you implying?

 

This can come across as if I'm against the message that they're supporting, but this is not true. I just feel like the constant reminding us/showcasing it/virtue signaling is condescending and annoying. The people that believe in equal rights and LGBT rights don't need to be told that, and those that are against it aren't suddenly going to change their mind because Nike, EA, or Sony tells them to.

 

What's also frustrating is that, if anything, it'll help those against these issues dig their heels in the sand even deeper. That causes a complete lack of understanding across the political spectrum, and subsequentially removes all avenues of mature and logical discussion. All opposing opinions are immediately dismissed and invalidated by either side, no matter the context, and the nation is intellectually poorer because of it.

 

In short, this corporate PR nonsense and all the Twitter padding only serve to create an even larger divide, and that is annoying and socially regressive.

 

Then in future posts you proceeded to talk about how you don't like politics in games because you like to escape from having to care about other people's suffering, and how you find characters' identities being changed annoying.

[PhantomWarcry]

Here’s my worthless opinion to add to the pile:

On politics in games, I don’t care what a games theme is, just how entertaining or thought provoking it is. That being said, lot of current media is basically on the level of a Dhar Mann video, being very basic if not incompetent but expecting praise for just displaying a blatantly obvious stance like racism is bad.
On company statements: Big companies are going to say whatever will get them in the least shit (or at least what they hope will) in order to attract more customers, and I don’t take any of these statements seriously. They’re certainly not newsworthy at this point. I suppose if this genuinely brings some joy to an affected minority that’s a positive effect, but I find it hard to believe that’s the case.

Ultimately I want games to be fun, the games that aren’t fun but still have a unique and interesting message they can deliver are an exception that I can appreciate but I’m still going to value a game that’s fun more. A game could be both, like MGS (which is excessively preachy but also entertaining, rules are made to be broken).

[Alayaes]

3 minutes ago, Jeanoltt said:

I don't see the "agenda" in videogames because those issues aren't political to me. They aren't issues, is just people living its life. A gay character like Dina/Ellie (Tlou), in a videogame, can cause a lot of hate in close-minded people to the point of believing that, but I just see them as any other character.

What you said there is very true. I personally believe that there is nothing wrong with Ellie, nor is creating her somehow shoving a political message. It's just a new character with a particular sexual orientation. I see no harm in that and I support that level of representation. The people that think Ellie in TLOU is shoving an agenda are reaching and blinded by their cause.

 

Now, what if suddenly in TLOU 3, they made her straight? She was just stuck in a "phase" before, the press-release states, but now she's straight. Not even bisexual. And just for shits and giggles, they make Dina a Vietnamese. Wouldn't you feel kind of....robbed? Wouldn't that feel like a decision made just to appeal to a certain group of people? Almost as if it suddenly becomes a political message? Can representation not be achieved via the creation of new characters? Why eliminate the identity of an existing character and force them into a new identity? That can be perceived by some as a personal attack. I wouldn't blame you for finding that change ridiculous because I'd wholeheartedly agree with you.

 

A lot of people just don't like companies pandering for social brownie points via the forceful transformation of existing characters and stories, or via whatever else that just comes across as forced or disingenuous, because that makes it then feel like it's the product of an agenda. Like Gilette telling all men to do better. A lot of men, me included, don't treat women like shit yet we're all addressed as if we're part of the problem. It incites aggravation. When you speak out against this, you're then thrown out with the bathwater into the yard with the bigots, alt-rights, etc.

 

It's the generalization and rampant labeling of people that's causing proper debate to go extinct.

[Zephrese]

5 minutes ago, Alayaes said:

-snip-

 

It's the generalization and rampant labeling of people that's causing proper debate to go extinct.

 

All of this, thank you.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Zephrese

[Alayaes]

21 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

Sigh.

 

 

Then in future posts you proceeded to talk about how you don't like politics in games because you like to escape from having to care about other people's suffering, and how you find characters' identities being changed annoying.

Yeah, nowhere do I state there that I am against representation. I only describe, in detail, how I am against the disingenuous use of virtue in the pursuit of sales and revenue. I feel that a lot of companies are picking the low-hanging fruit in order to generate a positive PR. Meanwhile, I feel it comes across as condescending. I don't need EA to explain to me why it's important that we fight racism. Are they assuming I needed that lecture? I didn't, but thanks for the lesson. None of that insinuates that I am against marginalized people or the representation they receive. I don't fight the message. I question the motive.

 

When I hear from Activision-Blizzard how important it is for me to stand up for equality, I wonder if maybe they're talking to the wrong person? Shouldn't they be holding that meeting internally as opposed to virtue-signaling about their own inclusivity on Twitter in hopes of curbing the boycotting?

 

You just have trouble understanding that and instead, confuse it with me saying I hate representation and that it threatens me. Come on now.

 

The last two points you brought up, without actually debating them once again mind you, are points I stand by. I find it annoying when existing lore/characters are changed as opposed to simply writing something new and fresh, and I do like to use games to escape from the negativity in the world. The way you're wording it insinuates that I should feel remorseful for that, but I disagree.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Alayaes

[czDante92]

48 minutes ago, breakingthegreen said:

Please don't plan to neglect your child if they turn out not how you want them too, it's messed up to even suggest it's a possibility. 

Don't worry, I won't, as Doucet said; I'm

48 minutes ago, Doucet-182 said:

 

holding my hypothetical trans child hostage to own the libs

 

44 minutes ago, boorish_brute said:

Please don't have children.

 

48 minutes ago, KimmysGotGame said:

My brother in Christ if the actions of one human on the internet cause you to forsake your child, perhaps you were just looking for a reason do so.

 

50 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

Hopefully by then we'll have better laws to protect trans children from child abusers.

See, this is why LGBT movement completely fails in its purpose, because people like you. Isn't it suppose to "educate" people on the issue? You're not doing anything to help the cause. I haven't said anything homophobic, transphobic or anything -phobic yet but you already insulted me and ridiculed me just because I wanted a relatively civil debate on the movement, not the people themselves, just as people who point out that BLM leaders are scum who swindled people of money and bought themselves mansions instead of helping black communities don't have to be racists.
You live in your own reality. You just pat each other on the back, assuring yourself how right you are and looking for excuse to demonize anyone who dares to oppose you in the slightest. You ignore every single thing I say, replying with "lol ur a transphobe dude" with smug expression on your face I'm sure and then you spend your days wondering why aren't LGBT people more accepted.
Again, let's say I am transphobe, like your typical hillbilly who doesn't know any better, isn't the point of LGBT movement to try and change my mind? To show me the light? To prove trans people are just like you or me? Or rather telling me to fuck off and talk with other people who already agree with everything you say? You're preaching to the choir while you should be preaching on the streets.
Or maybe you WANT me to be transphobic, to feel proper oppressed and be the martyrs you think you are? Then just say the word.

[Darling Baphomet]

The problem with the "supporting marginalized people isn't political" argument is that supporting marginalized people is political. It is extremely political. There is one side of the political spectrum that encourages diversity, and one side which wishes to wipe it out of existence. The only way you can keep inclusion apolitical is by limiting it to useless, empty statements like, "it's okay to be trans!" without doing anything to actually address the issues that affect trans people. But any meaningful support of marginalized people will heavily lean left, because you cannot support marginalized people without addressing the issues they face - disproportionate rates of homelessness, poverty, disability, lack of access to healthcare, student loan debt, victimization by police and the ~justice~ system, and so on and so forth.

 

Mind you, the American left is pretty useless in this regard, but that's because they're more like the American center.

 

Just now, Alayaes said:

Yeah, nowhere do I state there that I am against representation.

 

You're not against representation, you just don't like it.

 

Also this gem:

 

1 hour ago, Alayaes said:

I don't want to be reminded constantly of the struggles of a certain group. It's mentally unhealthy and can lead to depression.

 

[Infected Elite]

love how out of hand these get. i guess it is a debate...

[Alayaes]

6 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

The problem with the "supporting marginalized people isn't political" argument is that supporting marginalized people is political. It is extremely political. There is one side of the political spectrum that encourages diversity, and one side which wishes to wipe it out of existence. The only way you can keep inclusion apolitical is by limiting it to useless, empty statements like, "it's okay to be trans!" without doing anything to actually address the issues that affect trans people. But any meaningful support of marginalized people will heavily lean left, because you cannot support marginalized people without addressing the issues they face - disproportionate rates of homelessness, poverty, disability, lack of access to healthcare, student loan debt, victimization by police and the ~justice~ system, and so on and so forth.

 

Mind you, the American left is pretty useless in this regard, but that's because they're more like the American center.

 

 

You're not against representation, you just don't like it.

 

Also this gem:

 

 

I believe we're done here. I've tried to reason with you and have a proper argument, but you're clearly incapable of that and have no intentions to achieve that. I'm sure you'll feel like this is a victory for you while fist-bumping yourself in your head, but the truth is that we both lost the opportunity to come to a better understanding. That's regrettable.

 

You're also now quoting me completely out of context by only copy-pasting snippets of my larger message to peddle a narrative that's false. I'm not even going to bother defending that anymore because you're just purposely being petty and obtuse.

 

Very disappointing.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Alayaes

[Zephrese]

4 minutes ago, Infected Elite said:

love how out of hand these get. i guess it is a debate...

 

 

(assuming this doesn't get locked soon for whatever reason) i'll grab the popcorn

Edited May 26, 2022 by Zephrese

[Rozalia1]

49 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

Yes, so you instead only show aggression to marginalized people who are expressing their opinions wrong, while asserting that bigots can't be held responsible for their actions and must be pampered like babies. You don't build solidarity with the right, you build solidarity against them. With that said, your behavior in this thread clearly demonstrates you're not nearly as progressive as you'd like to assert. In case you missed it:

 

Your viewpoint expressed in this thread has been that others must be perfect and follow your beliefs to the letter or they're enemy combatants. You however can angrily lash out at people, insult them, condemn them as villains, and no one can point this out or they're bad people.

 

27 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

You've spent the whole thread arguing with marginalized people and complaining about how representation in video games makes you upset, all while putting no effort into convincing the bigots in this thread who you're berating me for not wanting to convince. Your behavior speaks for itself.

 

Basically victim blaming. You come at us with zeal and condemn us as evil people and then tut tut that us spending our time fending off your smears and not attacking other people proves our guilt. What comments should we have so badly addressed while your attacks were coming in? I'll remind you that at the start of the thread before you and your compatriots decided to suddenly make this all about Trans that I was responding to other parties with no issue.

 

3 minutes ago, Alayaes said:

I believe we're done here. I've tried to reason with you and have a proper argument, but you're clearly incapable of that and have no intentions to achieve that. I'm sure you'll feel like this is a victory for you while fist-bumping yourself in your head, but the truth is that we both lost the opportunity to come to a better understanding. That's regrettable.

 

You're also now quoting me completely out of context by only copy-pasting snippets of my larger message to peddle a narrative that's false. I'm not even going to bother defending that anymore because you're just purposely being petty and sad.

 

Very disappointing.

 

Your posts have been great, but some people sadly cannot be helped. Hopefully they'll have a moment of clarity one day.

[VoidVictorious]

1 minute ago, Rozalia1 said:

 

Your viewpoint expressed in this thread has been that others must be perfect and follow your beliefs to the letter or they're enemy combatants. You however can angrily lash out at people, insult them, condemn them as villains, and no one can point this out or they're bad people.

 

 

Basically victim blaming. You come at us with zeal and condemn us as evil people and then tut tut that us spending our time fending off your smears and not attacking other people proves our guilt. What comments should we have so badly addressed while your attacks were coming in? I'll remind you that at the start of the thread before you and your compatriots decided to suddenly make this all about Trans that I was responding to other parties with no issue.

 

 

Your posts have been great, but some people sadly cannot be helped. Hopefully they'll have a moment of clarity one day.

Unless you think this discussion is yielding anything but negativity, would you mind closing it so it doesn’t constantly get bumped to the top of the thread list? I’m not taking sides, but clearly this has gotten out of control.

[Darling Baphomet]

Just now, czDante92 said:

I haven't said anything homophobic, transphobic

 

This from the guy who just a page or two ago threatened to abuse his imaginary trans child to "own" me.

[Breakingthegreen]

3 minutes ago, Rozalia1 said:

Basically victim blaming. You come at us with zeal and condemn us as evil people and then tut tut that us spending our time fending off your smears and not attacking other people proves our guilt. What comments should we have so badly addressed while your attacks were coming in?

My pal, you started this thread, and can lock it at any time, even if I thought you were being attacked, which I don't, You have the power to end it just with a click. 

[VoidVictorious]

Just now, breakingthegreen said:

My pal, you started this thread, and can lock it at any time, even if I thought you were being attacked, which I don't, You have the power to end it just with a click. 

Agreed, please close the thread.

[Zephrese]

On the subject of people not condemning others for being problematic somehow being bad too for not doing so;

Is it not better to ignore the loudest of hecklers among a crowd likely disinterested in them for the very same reason as you, than to scream at them from the rooftops?

 

Does that not encourage them to be problematic further by giving them the attention they clearly want, and by doing so giving them more of a platform to shout said behavior?

And what does screaming at the crowd who's arguably - more or less - equally in disagreement with them do, when they're ignoring because most disagree to begin with?

 

I mean this in a general sense, not just with what's going on here specifically.

Sometimes people might be more deserving of a bit more of a "aggressive" approach, but I'm not sure if that's the case here considering all that's been said so far?

 

Anyone's free to tell me to fuck off or whatever over this if they disagree, it's kind of hard for me to take any of this seriously anymore despite my stance on the matter. lmao

Edited May 26, 2022 by Zephrese

[Darling Baphomet]

5 minutes ago, Rozalia1 said:

Your viewpoint expressed in this thread has been that others must be perfect and follow your beliefs to the letter or they're enemy combatants. You however can angrily lash out at people, insult them, condemn them as villains, and no one can point this out or they're bad people.

 

Yes, you're correct. I do not view being mad at bigots on the same level as people being bigots. That's your used condom of a shtick. You can politely bitch about marginalized people wanting the bare minimum of representation or decency, and that's completely fine, but as soon as a marginalized person treats you with the same contempt you treat others (albeit with more honesty), all hell breaks loose.

 

Fuck your civility.

 

4 minutes ago, Rozalia1 said:

I'll remind you that at the start of the thread before you and your compatriots decided to suddenly make this all about Trans that I was responding to other parties with no issue.

 

Gee, I wonder why the bigot is able to have civil discussions with other bigots.

[Jeanolt]

42 minutes ago, Alayaes said:

What you said there is very true. I personally believe that there is nothing wrong with Ellie, nor is creating her somehow shoving a political message. It's just a new character with a particular sexual orientation. I see no harm in that and I support that level of representation. The people that think Ellie in TLOU is shoving an agenda are reaching and blinded by their cause.

 

Now, what if suddenly in TLOU 3, they made her straight? She was just stuck in a "phase" before, the press-release states, but now she's straight. Not even bisexual. And just for shits and giggles, they make Dina a Vietnamese. Wouldn't you feel kind of....robbed? Wouldn't that feel like a decision made just to appeal to a certain group of people? Almost as if it suddenly becomes a political message? Can representation not be achieved via the creation of new characters? Why eliminate the identity of an existing character and force them into a new identity? That can be perceived by some as a personal attack. I wouldn't blame you for finding that change ridiculous because I'd wholeheartedly agree with you.

 

A lot of people just don't like companies pandering for social brownie points via the forceful transformation of existing characters and stories, or via whatever else that just comes across as forced or disingenuous, because that makes it then feel like it's the product of an agenda. Like Gilette telling all men to do better. A lot of men, me included, don't treat women like shit yet we're all addressed as if we're part of the problem. It incites aggravation. When you speak out against this, you're then thrown out with the bathwater into the yard with the bigots, alt-rights, etc.

 

It's the generalization and rampant labeling of people that's causing proper debate to go extinct.

I can understand that, some companies may be really hyprocrite, using us and then comitting abuse while no one see. Despite the differences, I'm glad we can have a normal chat?

Edited May 26, 2022 by Jeanoltt

[czDante92]

12 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

This from the guy who just a page or two ago threatened to abuse his imaginary trans child to "own" me.

Can't you and the people upvoting you tell reality from hypothetical situation? If this was about death penalty and I said that if I kill 5 people tomorrow, I would get the chair, would you also accuse me that I killed 5 people just to prove my point?
And I even assured the only normal reply that I will not do so in the post you're replying to. Absolutely ridiculous.
Also, still not adressing any arguments. I'm really expecting too much I guess.

[Rozalia1]

1 minute ago, VoidVictorious said:

Unless you think this discussion is yielding anything but negativity, would you mind closing it so it doesn’t constantly get bumped to the top of the thread list? I’m not taking sides, but clearly this has gotten out of control.

 

1 minute ago, breakingthegreen said:

My pal, you started this thread, and can lock it at any time, even if I thought you were being attacked, which I don't, You have the power to end it just with a click. 

 

What was the goal when certain people entered the thread and focused it all on Trans? To lock the thread. I'm not rewarding that myself. And even if the thread does get locked going forward, the conduct of those they have attacked has been positive so they have failed to bring out bad conduct and only showed their own.

 

Beyond all that... I think it is actually very fitting of the subject matter. Note what the actual discussion of the thread was. Now note how people coming in with their political agenda went on the attack on everyone else in the thread. This caused the original matter to barely get talked about due to the political attacks. Just how it'd work in a business. Work would grind to a halt due to zealous workers carrying out their political crusade in the workplace. I thank @Darling Baphomet and their confederates for a stunning live show of why EA/Sony/95% of companies are doing the right thing with their internal policy for workers on these matters.

 

1 minute ago, Darling Baphomet said:

This from the guy who just a page or two ago threatened to abuse his imaginary trans child to "own" me.

 

No he didn't. He made the point that you could be arguing with someone who'd have a Trans child down the line and as such you should try to educate/convince them in a nicer manner rather than just condemning them as a sinner.

 

3 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

Yes, you're correct. I do not view being mad at bigots on the same level as people being bigots. That's your used condom of a shtick. You can politely bitch about marginalized people wanting the bare minimum of representation or decency, and that's completely fine, but as soon as a marginalized person treats you with the same contempt you treat others (albeit with more honesty), all hell breaks loose.

 

Fuck your civility.

 

 

Gee, I wonder why the bigot is able to have civil discussions with other bigots.

 

Oh dear.

 

Literally on the first page I posted:

 

Quote

Diversity is certainly a good thing in a creative field as people are made up of their experiences and even in our enlightened times people do go through life differently be it for all manner of reasons. Race is heavily focused on of course but even within a racial group your class, where you grow up, so forth makes for drastically different experiences. It is why companies often hire consultants as they feel they wouldn't be able to capture the essence of creating whatever they're going for otherwise.

 

Hard to say which companies are 50% women but usually even if they are it means women making up the lower positions with some smatterings nearer to the top. There are valid concerns in even that not being exactly great. As for forced diversity/diversity hires. It is something that certain people will have over their head yes, I imagine largely unfairly as the truth is most jobs these days have X amount of equally qualified people. 

 

However I can understand your view of the matter. Diversity's positives, which you appear to recognise, are hampered by the overzealous dogmatic type of support certain people have for it.

 

Just love making stuff up to smear people don't you.

 

Honestly for your talk of bigots something that has become very clear is that they're not the ones you hate. A bigot is someone who is antagonistic and aggressive towards something, basically someone who acts like you do yes. I think you'd love an actual bigot you could scream at and have him scream back at you. Now a civil person, you really hate such people it seems. Thank you, I understand you better now.

 

4 minutes ago, czDante92 said:

Can't you and the people upvoting you tell reality from hypothetical situation? If this was about death penalty and I said that if I kill 5 people tomorrow, I would get the chair, would you also accuse me that I killed 5 people just to prove my point?
And I even assured the only normal reply that I will not do so in the post you're replying to. Absolutely ridiculous.
Also, still not adressing any arguments. I'm really expecting too much I guess.

 

Don't worry. Outside them, and I'm sure most of them do too, people see the points you've been making. 

[Infected Elite]

every thread OP makes turns into a shitshow without fail. Like posting to purposely start an argument for the sake of arguing...

[Zephrese]

The amount of blatant passive-aggression in this thread certainly isn't any less eye-roll inducing than all the mindless personal attacks either, which goes for both sides here. ?

Edited May 26, 2022 by Zephrese

[VoidVictorious]

8 minutes ago, Rozalia1 said:

 

 

What was the goal when certain people entered the thread and focused it all on Trans? To lock the thread. I'm not rewarding that myself. And even if the thread does get locked going forward, the conduct of those they have attacked has been positive so they have failed to bring out bad conduct and only showed their own.

 

Beyond all that... I think it is actually very fitting of the subject matter. Note what the actual discussion of the thread was. Now note how people coming in with their political agenda went on the attack on everyone else in the thread. This caused the original matter to barely get talked about due to the political attacks. Just how it'd work in a business. Work would grind to a halt due to zealous workers carrying out their political crusade in the workplace. I thank @Darling Baphomet and their confederates for a stunning live show of why EA/Sony/95% of companies are doing the right thing with their internal policy for workers on these matters.

 

 

No he didn't. He made the point that you could be arguing with someone who'd have a Trans child down the line and as such you should try to educate/convince them in a nicer manner rather than just condemning them as a sinner.

 

 

Oh dear.

 

Literally on the first page I posted:

 

 

Just love making stuff up to smear people don't you.

 

Honestly for your talk of bigots something that has become very clear is that they're not the ones you hate. A bigot is someone who is antagonistic and aggressive towards something, basically someone who acts like you do yes. I think you'd love an actual bigot you could scream at and have him scream back at you. Now a civil person, you really hate such people it seems. Thank you, I understand you better now.

 

 

Don't worry. Outside them, and I'm sure most of them do too, people see the points you've been making. 

It just seems like you want to pick fights with people. If you don’t like the content posted be the bigger person and stop the method for posting it by locking the thread. Again, not picking sides.

[Zephrese]

4 minutes ago, VoidVictorious said:

It just seems like you want to pick fights with people.

 

They come off as extremely condescending under a thin layer of "civility", at the very least.

Might not be their intention, but I can't exactly blame people for interpreting things that way especially after that last post.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Zephrese

[Infected Elite]

4 minutes ago, Zephrese said:

The amount of blatant passive-aggression in this thread certainly isn't any less eye-roll inducing than all the mindless personal attacks either, which goes for both sides here. 

Yeah, agreed. Its one thing to have an opinion and share it in a debate, but to flat out target people is stupid. ? But what do you expect? this is the 2nd thread ive seen get out of hand this week. Im sure there are more.

 

 

3 minutes ago, VoidVictorious said:

It just seems like you want to pick fights with people. If you don’t like the content posted be the bigger person and stop the method for posting it by locking the thread. Again, not picking sides.

does it in the wrestling thread so much people refuse to post there now.