Assist mode incoming platinum gonna be more achievable

[DrBloodmoney]

12 minutes ago, SkippiesBar said:

Very sloppy use of statistics.  
 

447,300 / 106,000,000 is not 0.004% but closer to 0.04% which is a big difference.

 

Using population-wide overall disability % doesn’t make sense in this context given the different types of disabilities. A walking impairment, for example, would not necessarily impact one’s ability to enjoy difficult games.

 

Moreover, it would make more sense to compare % of disabled gamers among the 106,000,000 PSN members if you are to compare it to trophy website members out of the same 106,000,000 population.

 

You might come to the same conclusion in the end, but the 2,500 - 6,500 more disabled to people enjoying difficult trophy lists is a huge exaggeration. 

 

 

Yes, my maths was wrong - it was the end of a long day....

...I'm surprised you're the first to point it out! ?

(I've fixed the original post)

 

It's more like 0.4% of Sony clientele actually (I forgot to factor it back to a percentage!) - but my overall point stands, regardless.

0.4% is still a statistically insignificant demographic as compared to 10-26%.

 

The 10%-26% is of world population, there aren't statistics on gamers specifically, however, if that percentage is lower, that only shows that the gaming industry hadsn't yet done enough to cater for those people, and have been excluding them up to now.

Edited June 24, 2022 by DrBloodmoney

[SkippiesBar]

6 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

Yes, my maths was wrong - it was the end of a long day....

...I'm surprised you're the first to point it out! 

(I've fixed the original post)

 

It's more like 0.4% of Sony clientele actually (I forgot to factor it back to a percentage!) - but my overall point stands, regardless.

0.4% is still a statistically insignificant demographic as compared to 10-26%.

 

The 10%-26% is of world population, there aren't statistics on gamers specifically, however, if that percentage is lower, that only shows that the gaming industry hadsn't yet done enough to cater for those people, and have been excluding them up to now.

0.4% indeed I was equally sloppy in my math.

 

I would say among the 10-26% there would be a huge overrepresentation of people 65+ who wouldn’t currently be a target market for gaming. So I think that statistic is irrelevant in this context. 
 

in the end, I don’t think the assist mode necessarily is a financial decision to target disabled, but rather a “hit two birds with one stone” virtue signal way to implement an easy mode to those who don’t want to be challenged and at the same time show “inclusiveness” which is a hot topic right now. Yes, I am a bit cynical. 

Also, since this was receiving a lot of good press in The Last of Us 2 (I believe they were first to really push for these types of options), other developers will follow suit.

 

From a business standpoint, it does seem like easy trophy lists are a better financial decision than difficult one given all recent Sony games and the trend overall. This trend is obviously based on data that developers have on easy vs hard games to complete. 

 

[DrBloodmoney]

3 minutes ago, SkippiesBar said:

0.4% indeed I was equally sloppy in my math.

 

I would say among the 10-26% there would be a huge overrepresentation of people 65+ who wouldn’t currently be a target market for gaming. So I think that statistic is irrelevant in this context. 

 

That's true... though it won't be for long!

 

A lot of the folks who started on the Atari and Commodore are in their mid fifties, approaching their sixties now... and the biggest generation ever is currently retiring, so in that context, it's not ridiculous for devs to be considering accessibility form a purely financial point of view.

 

The fact that it's also the right thing to do is probably more of a welcome coincidence for most, but that still doesn't make it wrong... 

 

 

3 minutes ago, SkippiesBar said:

in the end, I don’t think the assist mode necessarily is a financial decision to target disabled, but rather a “hit two birds with one stone” virtue signal way to implement an easy mode to those who don’t want to be challenged and at the same time show “inclusiveness” which is a hot topic right now. Yes, I am a bit cynical. 

 

Business is cynical - yes - but raw financial interest doesn't necessarily mean every result is a negative...

...sometimes doing the right thing is also the commercially prudent thing, and I don't think we should be castigating these devs for good results, even if the intention may have a cynical aside.

 

 

3 minutes ago, SkippiesBar said:

Also, since this was receiving a lot of good press in The Last of Us 2 (I believe they were first to really push for these types of options), other developers will follow suit.

 

From a business standpoint, it does seem like easy trophy lists are a better financial decision than difficult one given all recent Sony games and the trend overall. This trend is obviously based on data that developers have on easy vs hard games to complete. 

 

I don't know - there's a lot of pretty tough games that still sell gangbusters...

...I'm no epic gamer, but I'd argue that stuff like FROM games, Capcom games, Housemarque games etc. are all pretty tough, and sell very well.

 

I think the view on it gets skewed a bit when you use a site like this one, because it can feel like the complete dross trophy-delivery-software stuff (Jumping Taco / Breakthrough etc.) sells huge - but it doesn't really. It just sells well to this particular minuscule segment of the market. 

A reasonable percentage of that 0.4%

 

Not everyone on this site plays Breakthrough games, but nearly everyone who does plays Breakthrough games is on this site, so the sense of their popularity gets skewed a bit on here.

[Skurkitty]

18 hours ago, visighost said:

Why are there accessibility options? This, this is why.

This was actually incredibly touching to watch and I've just been sitting here thinking about it for around an hour. My dad is 100% legally blind (I thankfully just have standard bad eyesight), but I never considered that middle ground... between "oh you need glasses" to "you can't see anything sorry". I remember seeing all the options for TLOU2 and thinking they were super cool but couldn't really comprehend why they were necessary. I still can't, honestly, don't think I'll ever be able to because I'm not in need of them. But seeing this man's raw emotion gives serious perspective on the joy these options can bring.

I genuinely thank you for sharing it.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Skurkitty

[Mori]

18 hours ago, visighost said:

Why are there accessibility options? This, this is why.

 

That is moving and I am happy for folks who can fully enjoy more games like TLoU2 with accessibility options.

 

But what does lowering damage from enemies, increasing your health or lowering enemies health have to do with that. You can still have a decent challenge in a game and support disabled people. Tweaking with that should at least disable trophies.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Mori

[visighost]

3 hours ago, Mori said:

But what does lowering damage from enemies, increasing your health or lowering enemies health have to do with that. You can still have a decent challenge in a game and support disabled people. Tweaking with that should at least disable trophies.

 

Most people don't typically complain you can get all trophies from a game on any difficulty setting, for example, and a "decent challenge" is of course hugely subjective, so I think the disappointment here might come because the symbol of all the efforts we've put into a game, as represented by a digital trophy, is suddenly "devalued" as the criteria to obtain it change. I get it, I feel that pang too when it happens - and looking at your (really impressive) profile, I'm sure you feel it all the more as URs become common!

 

But while trophies are there to tell YOU that you've accomplished a challenge, they can't be tailored to everyone's particular biases so that the "decent challenge" is similar across the board. My daughter finds Rataliaka platformers quite a challenge. My wife... yeah, remembering what button does what is the challenge. Likewise for the myriad of disabilities that can affect gaming. The baseline is already different, so to repeat the point that's been hammered here... You do you. Want to play on easy? Go ahead. Want to do a speedrun? More power to you. No death run? I'll watch your stream. You have a severe eyesight handicap and manage to finish Dead Cells because they devs made the mobs weaker? Yeah, you get a trophy.

Edited June 24, 2022 by visighost

[SkippiesBar]

9 hours ago, visighost said:

 

Most people don't typically complain you can get all trophies from a game on any difficulty setting, for example, and a "decent challenge" is of course hugely subjective, so I think the disappointment here might come because the symbol of all the efforts we've put into a game, as represented by a digital trophy, is suddenly "devalued" as the criteria to obtain it change. I get it, I feel that pang too when it happens - and looking at your (really impressive) profile, I'm sure you feel it all the more as URs become common!

 

But while trophies are there to tell YOU that you've accomplished a challenge, they can't be tailored to everyone's particular biases so that the "decent challenge" is similar across the board. My daughter finds Rataliaka platformers quite a challenge. My wife... yeah, remembering what button does what is the challenge. Likewise for the myriad of disabilities that can affect gaming. The baseline is already different, so to repeat the point that's been hammered here... You do you. Want to play on easy? Go ahead. Want to do a speedrun? More power to you. No death run? I'll watch your stream. You have a severe eyesight handicap and manage to finish Dead Cells because they devs made the mobs weaker? Yeah, you get a trophy.

 

Agree that there is definitely room for accessibility options and trophies for those who complete the game with those options on. 

 

With that said, trophies are digital rewards, and a reward that can be earned without effort loses its meaning for a certain subset of people. Thus, making all trophies easier is catering for those who want easy games / have impairment at the expense of those who want difficult trophies. I don't see why this has to be a zero sum game when many older games have had a solution for this all along: Separate trophies for each game mode, one for assist and one for non-assist. Or one for easy, one for normal, one for hard mode. Throw in one for a speedrun or deathless run for good measure if the game is suitable for those kind of runs. 

 

I would argue that this is more inclusive than lowering the requirement bar for every trophy in the game. 

[Mokujin]

Nice to see. I love accessibility settings, they’re optional and if they make a game easier or dead easy for trophies etc oh well. If you don’t like using them, don’t. If you do, do, whether that be disability, or trophy hunting or whatever else. Just enjoy what you enjoy, how you enjoy it, and embrace the fact others can enjoy it more freely now.

[Chaos_Bladez]

This is great to see!

 

Also a thing worth bringing up (which I believe Steve Saylor [the guy from the Twitter posted in this thread] has brought up before) is that even able bodied people will probably need accessibility features in the future as our bodies decay and we get old. So yes, you may not need these features and features like these now, but you may when you get old and want to play old video games. 

[BrettyBoy]

On 23/06/2022 at 4:08 PM, Woopa777 said:

From a selfish point of view I don't like when games adds easy modes, because I am weak and will eventually turn it on. 

 

Celeste is a good example. I loved the challenging gameplay and would have spend a lot of time on that game, but when I hit a difficulty spike, it didn't take long before I turned assist mode on, and after the first time, it gets harder and harder to resist. I'm sure I would have done the same for all the harder of my 100% games if I had the chance and I wouldn't have any plats to be proud of. 

 

I know that this is my own problem, but this is why I prefer games without easy mode. I was actually planning to play dead cells very soon, but I might skip it if this trivializes the play.

It’s extremely tempting when all trophies can be obtained on a game on easy difficulty setting and I will sure as hell take advantage of it but I have beat games on hard mode before though and nothing wrong with taking advantage if it makes a platinum easier but I do plan to obtain the Cuphead platinum without the expert mode exploit that many here have likely heard of as I feel the game should be a total challenge.

Edited June 25, 2022 by BrettyBoy

[Stig-FD3S]

Assist mode is basically a game shark in 2022. It's using cheat codes with zero consequences.

 

What is the point when the game is basically going to play itself?

 

 

[Mokujin]

15 hours ago, Stig-FD3S said:

Assist mode is basically a game shark in 2022. It's using cheat codes with zero consequences.

 

What is the point when the game is basically going to play itself?

 

 

If the person enjoys that, let them. You don’t have to use anything like that. It’s your enjoyment that matters, not others.

[Stig-FD3S]

6 hours ago, Keidah said:

If the person enjoys that, let them. You don’t have to use anything like that. It’s your enjoyment that matters, not others.

 

A game that basically plays itself is pretty worthless in my eyes. Might as well just watch a video

[Teh_Zombz]

1 hour ago, Stig-FD3S said:

 

A game that basically plays itself is pretty worthless in my eyes. Might as well just watch a video

 

good thing its optional, i can understand being annoyed at this if it was an online pvp game but a single player rogue lite? i don't get the criticism lol

[Stig-FD3S]

1 hour ago, Teh_Zombz said:

 

good thing its optional, i can understand being annoyed at this if it was an online pvp game but a single player rogue lite? i don't get the criticism lol

 

You're on a trophy website. By your logic you should have no problem with people hacking their systems and giving themselves all trophies in all games because who cares it's not PvP.

[Teh_Zombz]

10 hours ago, Stig-FD3S said:

 

You're on a trophy website. By your logic you should have no problem with people hacking their systems and giving themselves all trophies in all games because who cares it's not PvP.

 

if they don't show up on the leaderboards then i i don't care how they get their trophies. i never have issues with people cheating/exploiting as long as it doesn't effect other people

[Stig-FD3S]

11 hours ago, Teh_Zombz said:

 

if they don't show up on the leaderboards then i i don't care how they get their trophies. i never have issues with people cheating/exploiting as long as it doesn't effect other people

Well, they will show up on the leaderboard 

[Gommes_]

My 5 cents to the update. I've played like 70 hours of Dead Cells on the Switch and last weekend I've tried out the new "Breaking Barriers" update and I am not sure what to think about it. Let me get this straight, it is great for people with disabilities, no doubt about that. But besides that it kinda changes the whole game. Dead Cells is not a Rogue Lite game anymore. It is now more like Strider or any jump and run action game.

 

The whole purpose of the game was learning strategies, routes and fighting mechanics. This is kinda gone because of the update. Yes, I know that it is totally optional but as soon as the real difficulty kicks in and the player is forced to go back to the beginning for the third or fourth time the majority will use the benefits of the update. I mean it makes sense right? If you just wanna play through that game in order to focus on other things, why not just go the easy route? Look at the the easy options on the Mario games on the Wii U or the Switch for example. The easy option there is that the game suggests playing a level for you. This short segment could trigger some sort of ambition to try it one more time but giving up one hour of playtime because of "rogue lite rules"? No way! Dead Cells takes it to another level and overhauls it's own game mechanic.

 

Playing with 4 or 5 boss cells now is a joke and it raises the question for me how to handle these things in the future and how many easy options are too many?

[Mori]

On 24.6.2022 at 2:16 PM, visighost said:

Most people don't typically complain you can get all trophies from a game on any difficulty setting, for example, and a "decent challenge" is of course hugely subjective, so I think the disappointment here might come because the symbol of all the efforts we've put into a game, as represented by a digital trophy, is suddenly "devalued" as the criteria to obtain it change. I get it, I feel that pang too when it happens - and looking at your (really impressive) profile, I'm sure you feel it all the more as URs become common!

 

But while trophies are there to tell YOU that you've accomplished a challenge, they can't be tailored to everyone's particular biases so that the "decent challenge" is similar across the board. My daughter finds Rataliaka platformers quite a challenge. My wife... yeah, remembering what button does what is the challenge. Likewise for the myriad of disabilities that can affect gaming. The baseline is already different, so to repeat the point that's been hammered here... You do you. Want to play on easy? Go ahead. Want to do a speedrun? More power to you. No death run? I'll watch your stream. You have a severe eyesight handicap and manage to finish Dead Cells because they devs made the mobs weaker? Yeah, you get a trophy.

 

I don't argue the fact you can get trophies on any difficulty setting in games, I even welcome it because most harder difficulty settings are poorly adjusted, example NieR Automata which I started on Hard difficulty only to move down to Normal during the later stages of the game because it became unbearable and not fun anymore.

 

The devs behind Dead Cells however decided to put trophies in the game that challenge the player to achieve some impressive feats. That was the developers intention with introducing said trophies. I'd never go out of my way and tell developers to change the trophies to be more or less challenging. Yes I might be dissappointed at times but that's it, I don't expect anyone to tailor their trophies to my expectations.

 

Now they introduce assist mode, which again is totally fine and even welcoming but at the same time they are defeating the purpose of the trophies they once decided to put in the game with the one addition of lowering health etc. If they decide to make their games and trophies easier in the future, that is totally fine but people have already put a lot of effort and time into Dead Cells trophies before assist mode was a thing. Yes, people still achieved it the "hard" way and nobody can take it from them but let's be honest here, people also like to show off their proudest achievements. Heck there even exist a trophy cabinet on PSNP. Yes, not everyone is like that but it would also be wrong to argue there are none that like to show off.

 

Imagine Crypt of the Necrodancer, one if not the most respectable platinum trophy to exist to this date, would receive an assist mode, lowering the difficulty from a 10/10 to a 5 or 6 out of 10. Even though the few that have achieved the platinum before assist mode did it the "hard" way, are now indistinguishable from the ones that would do it after assist mode was introduced. If I put myself into the shoes of those few, I would always have the urge to make sure it is visible that I did it the hard way, because I put so much effort and time into it. Edit: Seems Crypt might get a new console update that makes save scumming possible. lol

 

If one doesn't really care about all that, of course it does not affect them but there are people that care and it is simply unfair to tell those people "yeah, tough luck, deal with it". We, the few people that are very vocal about every game getting easier and trophies loosing their "value", are being told over and over again we should just accept it, we should stop gatekeeping, we should stop our elitism, not realizing they do exactly what they want "us" to stop.

 

Just because your daughter finds Rata games challenging and your wife has trouble remembering what buttons do what, does not mean they deserve every trophy or developers should tailor their trophies to them, after they decided to put challenging trophies into a game. Trophies in video games used to be about accomplishments and seeing it degrading more and more to gluttony is just sad in my eyes.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Mori

[Shadiochao]

I'm having a lot of fun with the assist mode. Being able to just go ham with upgrades and stats rushing through everything in my way feels so much nicer than meticulously planning out every move and gear change only to lose it all when you die in 2 or 3 hits. 

 

Although to be fair, I didn't really like the game it was when it released. I probably would've left it unfinished if it weren't for the assist mode, but now it's here I'm actually enjoying the game

[StraightVege]

14 hours ago, Gommes_ said:

It is now more like Strider or any jump and run action game.

 

Sounds fantastic, to be honest. Now I'm glad I waited so long to play this! That said, I'll probably still try the game with default settings after platinum.

 

Impressed with the developers for supporting/updating their game this long. Gotta pick up the DLC bundle soon.

[No longer here]

I'm just here reading all this..... I'm just happy more ppl are playing the game.

[steel6burgh]

Achievements are exactly that something that should be achieved.  Assist mode in games are great so that people who have disabilities can enjoy the games.  Handing out all the trophies for a watered down version of a game that plays itself is a problem.  anything we can't do or achieve in life some special rule needs to be made so we can achieve it too.  This is the mentality theses days and it's a problem.  We are all different and we all have things we're good at and not good at.  We shouldn't just change the game for everyone every time we can't achieve what they can.

Edited June 29, 2022 by steel6burgh

[Stig-FD3S]

Well, had the game in the trophy cabinet but I'll be removing it now 

[Vern3r0z]

so how hard is the 100% for this game with the assist mode compared to the original 7/10?