deleted

[MonaSaxPayne]

1 hour ago, janzor88 said:

It's not really rocket science or hard to understand that the times have changed since the leaderboard was made, and that the leaderboard hasn't followed with the times.

I have no idea why you keep returning to every single thread about rarity or ezpz games, and whine about people who are trying to improve the site.

You are not to decide what matters to people.

If you don't give a shit about leaderboards, then don't berate other people who do care.

 

maybe u misunderstood

 

or maybe I haven't expressed myself as clearly as I should?

 

I'm not against a rarity leaderboard.. or any other type of leaderboard 

 

what I'm saying is the current leaderboard has always been based on points. and as such there is nothing wrong with it

 

points has nothing to do with anything except points 

 

as long as points are not/was never/will never be your priority.. the current leaderboard will always suck for u

 

 

[AJ_-_808]

1 hour ago, tonkie18 said:

 

 So basically everyone whining about this would have to complete crypt of the necrodancer or the like to stay on this rarity leaderboard? Everything would become less rare with time. Makes no sense to me.

 

That's the point.  For anyone chasing ultra rares, eventually the ones that are easy but only have a few owners will get get more popular (more sales for the devs) and will eventually lose ultrarare status.

 

For the truly difficult ones, people attempting and failing will generally out weigh people attempting and succeeding, making it rarer.  It's a scaling value system instead of absolute value system 

[Guest]

OP has hidden his trophies and apparently abandoned PSNP... damn... I also noticed that all of his alt's multiple world records disappeared from the leaderboard, I believe it has something to do with this thread and its general reception.  This is sad ?

[Jerry_Appleby]

7 hours ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

99.9% of trophy hunters weren't anywhere close to the top of the leaderboards anyway

Yet the ones that were are the ones being screwed over. All the hardcore trophy hunters of the first 10 years of trophies are now not even top 1000 without playing all the EZPZ stacks. The people who made trophy hunting popular are left behind to appease the 99% of casual gamers out there. I understand that the company is trying to get more people interested in trophies (because more sales is more $$ in their pockets), but by alienating their most loyal hunters, they've screwed over their original fanbase. I used to be top 10 in Canada and top 400 worldwide before the EZPZ trend took over, now I'm just barely in the top 2000. And after playing a few of the EZPZs out there and realizing how companies were using trophy addiction to further their sales, I realized that I didn't want to go that route and stopped supporting those bad business practices.

 

As AJ said earlier, back in the good days, easy games were so hard to come by, you'd have games like HM or Terminator Salvation as the "shameful" plats of those days, but most of the games people were playing were actual full games with proper trophy lists, and easy games were much farther and fewer between. And many people could stay near the top of the leaderboards just by playing really any games in general, not just the easier Disney games.

 

Nowadays there are exponentially more EZPZ games than regular games, most of them not even actual games (more similar to those old FLASH games we used to play on shockwave), and they are ruining leaderboards for competitive purposes. Which is why a rarity leaderboard alongside the main leaderboard is a must to have a chance at eliminating all the EZPZ games that are clogging up the current lb.

[janzor88]

31 minutes ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

 

maybe u misunderstood

 

or maybe I haven't expressed myself as clearly as I should?

 

I'm not against a rarity leaderboard.. or any other type of leaderboard 

 

what I'm saying is the current leaderboard has always been based on points. and as such there is nothing wrong with it

 

points has nothing to do with anything except points 

 

as long as points are not/was never/will never be your priority.. the current leaderboard will always suck for u

 

 

 

Yes, the current leaderboard is based on points.

 

The statistical problem is that the point requirements have changed drastically. 

When trophies launched in 2008 and many years later, it was a binomial distribution with 1/10 and 10/10 difficulties as nonnormal distributions in a symmetrical Bell Curve.

PSN games (hard or easy), and small arcade games could only have 315 points.

 

Most games required some effort in one way or another, while few games either required no effort or maximum effort.

 

After Sony removed the point and platinum requirements, the leaderboard has been inflated with these wallpaper "games" which require ZERO effort.

Suddenly the data (points/trophies) are skewed, since these developers are spitting so many games out in no time.

As an example just the "developer" behind Hippo G has released 145 titles in 9 months(!).

And there are many "developers" like this.

 

This flood of trash on the leaderboard is completely ruining the competitive part in our hobby.

It's not about being #1 in the world, but it's about competing against each other by actually playing games. Games that developers at least have put some thought and effort into. 

 

Right now we have a shovelware tsunami which is only getting bigger for every day, instead of doing something about it.

[DeepEyes7]

11 hours ago, tonkie18 said:

Right there might be the odd game that would still have ultra rare trophies to begin with anyway. But games which aren’t as hard as that will be completed more and become less rare. So then everyone with a hard on for this ultra rare leaderboard will start chasing the harder ultra rares and they will become less rare until every trophy is common.

 

 So basically everyone whining about this would have to complete crypt of the necrodancer or the like to stay on this rarity leaderboard? Everything would become less rare with time. Makes no sense to me.

 

You say fake UR’s as if anything that isn’t as hard as Crypt shouldn’t be one. There are plenty of games that need patience, time, effort but might not necessarily require a lot of skill.. so they shouldn’t be classed as an UR? I think what you’re after is some sort of leaderboard which shows off skill - basically a badge of honour, look at me and how good I am at gaming. I’m not sure how you will measure that but good luck!

 

One of the usual arguments of people against the rarity LB is "Some games like the ones that had been free sometime (via PSN+ or any other way) has fake stats because a lot of people try them and never come back, so the rarities are fake", that is what I call a fake UR, I'm just trying to explain that this "easy" UR's will be the first ones to lose that rank because will be the first ones targeted by people that want to climb of that LB (I even remember one prominent trophy hunter from the Top10 saying that he could fill his list of URs if he wanted just going for those "free" games)

[pinkrobot_pb]

4 hours ago, DeepEyes7 said:

... that is what I call a fake UR, I'm just trying to explain that this "easy" UR's will be the first ones to lose that rank because will be the first ones targeted by people that want to climb of that LB ....

 

Exactly this. And it's why all the UR fanatics would shoot themselves in the foot by establishing a rarity leaderboard on here. Ultra Rare inflation would be higher than the actual inflation right now.

 

There are so many easy UR's out there that only need the effort to go out and get them. I have ~190 right now and I would say at least 150 of those were simply a case of me bothering to go get them. Nothing difficult about them at all: it's mostly just some old PS3 games where you find a boosting partner and get 5 UR's within half an hour.

[Darling Baphomet]

15 hours ago, kevao97 said:

OP has hidden his trophies and apparently abandoned PSNP... damn... I also noticed that all of his alt's multiple world records disappeared from the leaderboard, I believe it has something to do with this thread and its general reception.  This is sad

 

Based on his other posts he doesn't even think his idea is good, he just whipped it up as a strawman to make a point about... something.

 

21 minutes ago, pinkrobot_pb said:

There are so many easy UR's out there that only need the effort to go out and get them. I have ~190 right now and I would say at least 150 of those were simply a case of me bothering to go get them. Nothing difficult about them at all: it's mostly just some old PS3 games where you find a boosting partner and get 5 UR's within half an hour.

 

There's a lot of reasons that trophies are rare. Some are genuinely hard, some just take forever (e.g. that one Birthdays: The Beginning trophy that takes something like 500 hours of idling), and some are inaccessible. Boosting is a form of inaccessibility for a lot of people as it's a pain in the ass to find people to do shit with you, especially if you typically prefer not to party up with randoms.

 

You're missing the point of why people value URs - it's not just because they have the words "ultra rare" assigned to them, it's because it's a category of games which are generally very difficult to beat. If an easy UR gets played a lot and becomes a VR instead... who cares? That just means the rarity would be more accurate. It doesn't change anything about the game's difficulty. The point isn't to hoard as many UR trophies as possible, it's to reward effort.

 

5 hours ago, DeepEyes7 said:

One of the usual arguments of people against the rarity LB is "Some games like the ones that had been free sometime (via PSN+ or any other way) has fake stats because a lot of people try them and never come back, so the rarities are fake", that is what I call a fake UR, I'm just trying to explain that this "easy" UR's will be the first ones to lose that rank because will be the first ones targeted by people that want to climb of that LB (I even remember one prominent trophy hunter from the Top10 saying that he could fill his list of URs if he wanted just going for those "free" games)

 

This is a good point; barring extremely obscure indie titles easy URs would start to balance themselves out eventually.

[DrBloodmoney]

9 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

The point isn't to hoard as many UR trophies as possible, it's to reward effort.

 

This is the point I never really understood about the fetishisation of UR trophies, or the obsession with Rarity Leaderboards etc...

 

...why do we care about effort?

 

Videogames are an entertainment pass-time. They are meant to be for fun.

 

 

I'm all for discouraging people form spending money on the really exploitative, silly, non-games (the Jumping X/ X Run / Project Summer Ice nonsense) and instead spending that money on something with merit...

...but that's because those games don't offer any actual fun - not because they don't take "effort".

 

 

Since when did playing videogames, and seeing the breadth of entertainment that rich medium has to offer, and fostering a sense of community around enjoyment of that medium have to be boiled down to a pissing contest over who could bull-headedly force themselves through games that give them less enjoyment than other ones would, just because they will be in a smaller pool of people who also did so?

 

Yeah - by all means, let's see the non-games that only exist to deliver free trophies be shat upon...

...but let's not pretend that there is any world in which forcing oneself to platinum Space Overlords is of greater value than playing Elden Ring.

 

[Darling Baphomet]

2 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

...why do we care about effort?

 

Why do speedrunners like to make sure the fastest times aren't all held by cheaters? Why do multiplayer games put in so much effort to make sure their scoreboards aren't being dominated by hackers?

[AJ_-_808]

1 minute ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

Why do speedrunners like to make sure the fastest times aren't all held by cheaters? Why do multiplayer games put in so much effort to make sure their scoreboards aren't being dominated by hackers?

To add to that, why have a leaderboard at all?

[DrBloodmoney]

8 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

Why do speedrunners like to make sure the fastest times aren't all held by cheaters?

because they are engaged in a different pass-time to the majority of us, I suppose. But then, speedrunners don’t generally care about trophies.
There’s no category in gamesdonequick related to trophies, I don’t think, and so I doubt a fastest leaderboard on a trophy website is really of much interest beyond academically to the Speedrunning Community.

 

 

Quote

Why do multiplayer games put in so much effort to make sure their scoreboards aren't being dominated by hackers?

Because hacking ruins the fun for everyone else. It’s not to ensure their game is “super hard” - it’s to keep a level playing field.

Edited August 21, 2022 by DrBloodmoney

[Darling Baphomet]

1 minute ago, DrBloodmoney said:

it’s to keep a level playing field.

 

Yes, my point exactly. It fundamentally just fucking sucks to put yourself into a competitive environment - be it a speedrunning leaderboard, the scoreboard in a shooter, or a trophy leaderboard - and have your genuine attempts at mastering your particular hobby be rendered insignificant by people who cheated or exploited their way to the top.

[Nebnit]

On 2022. 08. 21. at 11:02 AM, DrBloodmoney said:

Since when did playing videogames, and seeing the breadth of entertainment that rich medium has to offer, and fostering a sense of community around enjoyment of that medium have to be boiled down to a pissing contest over who could bull-headedly force themselves through games that give them less enjoyment than other ones would, just because they will be in a smaller pool of people who also did so?

 

Since many enjoyable games have already been ignored by some for not having a platinum, for example.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Nebnit

[pinkrobot_pb]

22 hours ago, Darling Baphomet said:

You're missing the point of why people value URs  ... [ SNIP ] ... The point isn't to hoard as many UR trophies as possible, it's to reward effort.

 

I feel like there is a lof of wishful thinking involed there. Because there is no need to pretend that the UR label is not important to many, many people. It is by definition the category of most sought after trophies. And that 5% line may be arbitrary, but people's approach to that line definitely isn't:

• The "but how many ultra rares do you have" mindset when judging other people's (trophy whores) profiles has definitely become a thing on here.
• The amount of discussion about a certain trophy changing status (and back again) is plentiful ("Oooh it's on Plus, will it become UR now?")
• Trophy events like the Ultra Rare cleanup (and other events that focus on the rarity categories) can be found easily.
• I have also seen plenty of topics asking about the "easies ultra rare platinums" by people who want to make their profile look better in that rarity category (easiest reward with as little "effort" as possible, just to boost their stats).

When you make stats and categories, people will focus on them. But then again, I will care as much about a rarity leaderboard as the regular one. So feel free to ignore me.

Edited August 22, 2022 by pinkrobot_pb

[Woopa777]

3 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

This is the point I never really understood about the fetishisation of UR trophies, or the obsession with Rarity Leaderboards etc...

 

...why do we care about effort?

 

Videogames are an entertainment pass-time. They are meant to be for fun.

 

You seem like a smart person (based on most of your posts on these forums). Can you seriously not understand that different people find different things fun? 

Just because you don't care about effort in videogames doesn't mean that others don't.

[DrBloodmoney]

1 minute ago, Woopa777 said:

You seem like a smart person (based on most of your posts on these forums). Can you seriously not understand that different people find different things fun? 

Just because you don't care about effort in videogames doesn't mean that others don't.

I do care about having fun, and sometimes that means challenge… but I think these threads have a tendency to focus so much on the effort involved in some games, and rewarding that, to the detriment of everything else, that games which are genuinely fun, but not rare or challenging get sidelined, in favour of crappy but obscure/ broken ones 

[Woopa777]

6 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

I do care about having fun, and sometimes that means challenge… but I think these threads have a tendency to focus so much on the effort involved in some games, and rewarding that, to the detriment of everything else, that games which are genuinely fun, but not rare or challenging get sidelined, in favour of crappy but obscure/ broken ones 

That might be the case for some people.

For me (and i think for most people that want rarity leaderboards) it's about having a leaderboard where you can play fun games and still be relatively competitive.

[iriihutoR84]

Every single leaderboard has a competitive aspect to it or it serves no purpose. The only way to be competitive on the PSNP leaderboard is to buy The Jumping Burrito's 8 stacks and the Turbo version's 8 stacks. It really is that bad when anyone can earn probably 40 platinum trophies (maybe more at this point?) every week by essentially holding down a button. This means that the PSNP leaderboard is completely useless as a competitive gaming leaderboard. You simply cannot compete on this competitive gaming leaderboard unless you buy non-games with jumping food, Animals + Letters and those new ones with a car moving right to left.

 

I'd personally like to see two more leaderboards in addition to today's. One "Adjusted" that just sorts out the very worst of the paid plats by not counting games with above XX% completion and another one that highly rewards rarer trophies. That would give more people a chance to have fun with the competitive aspect of trophy hunting. Today's leaderboard is only for "fans of" Jumping Food, Jumping Umps and general spamming of buttons. It only rewards developers with no interest in making enjoyable games and punishes anyone who wants to compete by forcing them to buy non-games.

 

And yes, there are flaws and possibilities to exploit any system that doesn't count everything as "1 = 1" but it cannot become worse than what we have today. 

Edited August 21, 2022 by iriihutoR84

[Mellenthin]

7 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

This is the point I never really understood about the fetishisation of UR trophies, or the obsession with Rarity Leaderboards etc...

 

...why do we care about effort?

 

Videogames are an entertainment pass-time. They are meant to be for fun.

 

 

I'm all for discouraging people form spending money on the really exploitative, silly, non-games (the Jumping X/ X Run / Project Summer Ice nonsense) and instead spending that money on something with merit...

...but that's because those games don't offer any actual fun - not because they don't take "effort".

 

 

Since when did playing videogames, and seeing the breadth of entertainment that rich medium has to offer, and fostering a sense of community around enjoyment of that medium have to be boiled down to a pissing contest over who could bull-headedly force themselves through games that give them less enjoyment than other ones would, just because they will be in a smaller pool of people who also did so?

 

Yeah - by all means, let's see the non-games that only exist to deliver free trophies be shat upon...

...but let's not pretend that there is any world in which forcing oneself to platinum Space Overlords is of greater value than playing Elden Ring.

 

 

If I'm going to explain to you the satisfaction of earning UR's and you seriously don't understand the concept, that will have to be in another topic I'm afraid.

 

Why effort, you ask? Perhaps it's because if there's a single thing that makes everything tick, it's due to effort. Nothing is accomplished without it, and because how life is set up, for the same reason it's precisely why people in general loath free-loaders and parasites in society.

 

The leaderboards have degenerated to the extent that the top positions now belong to people whom represent the absolute bottom of the barrel kind of dregs. At least try and understand that.

 

Also try and come to the conclusion that most people who still have a care for the leaderboards do not want to have anything to do with the current situation.

 

Your last paragraph is unfounded, by the way. Anybody with the slightest taste in proper games can still differentiate between a quick UR and your typical FromSoftware masterpiece - you can take my word for it.?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 21, 2022 by Mellenthin

[StraightVege]

12 hours ago, DrBloodmoney said:

But then, speedrunners don’t generally care about trophies. There’s no category in gamesdonequick related to trophies, I don’t think, and so I doubt a fastest leaderboard on a trophy website is really of much interest beyond academically to the Speedrunning Community.

 

I suppose this is tangential to the discussion, but there are indeed "all achievements/all trophies" categories for some games, such as Bloodborne.

[DrBloodmoney]

25 minutes ago, StraightVege said:

 

I suppose this is tangential to the discussion, but there are indeed "all achievements/all trophies" categories for some games, such as Bloodborne.

ah! Interesting- I must admit, I’m not super familiar with all the stuff they do in GdQ, just the most notable ones, so I did have a hunch someone better versed in that world might call me on that one ?

 

I still think trophies probably don’t really sit terribly high in the priorities of the speed-running community generally, but that’s interesting to know for sure!

 

5 hours ago, Mellenthin said:

Your last paragraph is unfounded, by the way. Anybody with the slightest taste in proper games can still differentiate between a quick UR and your typical FromSoftware masterpiece - you can take my word for it.

I don’t need to take your word for it - I know that. That’s kinda my point…

 

Rarity means very little in terms of the quality of games  - and, as you so eloquently put it… “Anybody with the slightest taste in proper games” knows that.

 

Not sure how you get to “unfounded”, given that you are basically saying the exact same thing I did 

[StraightVege]

1 minute ago, DrBloodmoney said:

ah! Interesting- I must admit, I’m not super familiar with all the stuff they do in GdQ, just the most notable ones, so I did have a hunch someone better versed in that world might call me on that one 

 

Well, the speedrunning community is mostly centered around speedrun.com and specific Discord servers for the various games, anyway. GDQ is just the most successful speedrun marathon for charity, but there are many others, like ESA and RTA in Japan.

[Darling Baphomet]

11 hours ago, pinkrobot_pb said:

I feel like there is a lof of wishful thinking involed there. Because there is no need to pretend that the UR label is not important to many, many people. It is by definition the category of most sought after trophies. And that 5% line may be arbitrary, but people's approach to that line definitely isn't:

 

Again, URs are a category. They are a label. They are not a thing in and of themselves so much as they are a (not perfect, as we've established) indicator of a game's difficulty. So when you want to cite games that are very difficult to platinum, you'll talk about URs. It's not the label that matters, it's the difficulty of the games encompassed under that label. If anything, your proposed UR 'inflation' (deflation is more accurate) would make Ultra Rares as a category more valuable, because there would be fewer easy URs, and thus URs would be rarer and more highly prized.

 

Yeah, some people's platinums might be bumped up from UR to VR, but I think I speak for most people when I say, who gives a shit?

 

53 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Rarity means very little in terms of the quality of games  - and, as you so eloquently put it… “Anybody with the slightest taste in proper games” knows that.

 

... Yes? I don't think anybody in this thread has argued that ultra rares are all high quality games, or that having a super low trophy rarity is indicative of a game being good. To use the scoreboard example, sure, the people at the top of the scoreboard might not be good people, but that's completely irrelevant, because the scoreboard exists to track how good people are at the game, not their moral worth.

 

7 hours ago, iriihutoR84 said:

Every single leaderboard has a competitive aspect to it or it serves no purpose. The only way to be competitive on the PSNP leaderboard is to buy The Jumping Burrito's 8 stacks and the Turbo version's 8 stacks. It really is that bad when anyone can earn probably 40 platinum trophies (maybe more at this point?) every week by essentially holding down a button. This means that the PSNP leaderboard is completely useless as a competitive gaming leaderboard. You simply cannot compete on this competitive gaming leaderboard unless you buy non-games with jumping food, Animals + Letters and those new ones with a car moving right to left.

 

It's wayyy more than that. I remember a year or two back I was in a team trophy hunting event and one of the teams ahead of us was being carried by one guy who was ~earning~ an EZPZ plat every half hour to hour. If you were really dedicated you could probably manage 100 in a week. And the EZPZ situation has only gotten worse since that event. That event even had a rarity modifier to encourage people to play actual games, but the sheer volume of garbage platinums being churned out still managed to overpower everyone else.

[pinkrobot_pb]

8 hours ago, Darling Baphomet said:

Yeah, some people's platinums might be bumped up from UR to VR, but I think I speak for most people when I say, who gives a shit.

 

In a fantasy world where a rarity leaderboard would be implemented in such a way that it could become popular, I could say: "Let's wait and see". In the world that we actually live in, we can safely hold on to our own opinions and both pretend that they are correct.

Edited August 22, 2022 by pinkrobot_pb