This shovelware spam is making trophy hunting less fun

[TomataEighty9]

1 hour ago, AJ_-_808 said:

 

Not sure evolved is the right word. Platinums became far more available/cheesy than they were at leaderboard's inception.  I don't think the people in charge saw that coming... or cared

 

English is not my first language  

 

It has changed. Like it or not, things change, and not always for the better  

[ARIXANDRE]

Brazilian trophy site Mypst.com also does a nice job tracking difficulty and rarity leaderboards. 

[Ashande]

13 minutes ago, steel6burgh said:

That isn't how it would be done.  It would be rarity of trophies being assigned different point values all the way down to nothing for 99% rarity or very common trophies.  You just have to use your head a little.  It isn't going to be a couple of guys sitting in a smoke filled room conspiring on which games will count and which won't.  It would involve simple math and be fair for everyone.

 

Basing it off of rarity alone would be manipulatable, would still have a system unbalanced in favor of those with deeper pockets (thus able to go eBay hunting for high popularity but low followthrough PS3 titles or start stocking up on older DLC), devalue games with significant Platinum difficulty but dedicated fanbases or niche games(such as most Souls titles and quite a few JRPGs), encourage stacking (by folks seeking out the “rarest” stacks), and make a significant number of triple A titles effectively worthless. The resulting Leaderboard would likely be just as flawed as the current one ostensibly is.

 

EDIT: There’s also the issue of sheer volume. Quantity vs. quality. You get the plat for Elden Ring, as an example, which is worth, say, 55 points (just for example’s sake, taking 100-trophy rarity for value, and last I checked Elden Ring was around 45%). Cool. That probably took you in the neighborhood of 50-100 hours. In that same timeframe, someone could have spammed 55 Jumping Garbage games/stacks, and still have at least 44 more hours left to screw around… by playing a few dozen more Hump Jumps.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Ashande
Added comment regarding quantity vs. quality

[steel6burgh]

13 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

"a couple of guys sitting in a smoke filled room conspiring on which games will count and which won't" is exactly how DLC rarity was broken on the site already.... 

 

...and until it's fixed, a rarity leaderboard would be about as much use as a chocolate teapot. 

Well the system we have in place is just perfect isn't it?  do you believe we have to take a system that is complete shit and replace it with absolute perfection?  couldn't we take some steps and possibly see if we can just improve things a bit before we achieve the perfect leaderboard?  Isn't that how everything is accomplished.  I mean the guys that 1st started rocket technology didn't just build a rocket and fly it to the moon on the 1st try did they?  Nah, they built a 1000 models that turned into 100's of rockets before they made the one that flew to the moon.  

 

The problem with theses games isn't just the leaderboard on psn profiles.  I can see the writing on the wall.  Somebody is going to play this shit and become so addicted to it they end up ruining their life and harming theirselves.  I'd say it's already happening.  Sony will end up getting sued for allowing such an addictive system and product, at which point , it's ruined for everyone.  Sony has already had to take steps to clean up the PS store.  These game look like shit on their store.  If I had one of the largest video game store and was one of the top platforms in gaming I don't think I'd want "jumping hotdog" crap posted up all over my store front.   

 

We could all but eliminate it ourselves by not rewarding it.  Or we can just wait until it's too late.

Edited August 30, 2022 by steel6burgh

[Pots3k]

3 minutes ago, Ashande said:

 

Basing it off of rarity alone would be manipulatable, would still have a system unbalanced in favor of those with deeper pockets (thus able to go eBay hunting for high popularity but low followthrough PS3 titles or start stocking up on older DLC), devalue games with significant Platinum difficulty but dedicated fanbases or niche games(such as most Souls titles and quite a few JRPGs), encourage stacking (by folks seeking out the “rarest” stacks), and make a significant number of triple A titles effectively worthless. The resulting Leaderboard would likely be just as flawed as the current one ostensibly is.

It would be a significantly better system than the (lack of) one we have now. The extremely finite amount of rare PS3 games is nothing compared to the seemingly -IN-finite wave of shovelware.

[CelestialRequiem]

It's less fun because Sony has allowed the worth of a platinum to be inherently devalued. 

 

You had your outliers like Hannah Montana, but now, PSN will soon have more bullshit games than legitimate ones. At this rate, platinums that take more than five minutes will be the outliers. 

 

They had it right for so long. But then curation was forwent, so this is now the current situation. Sony recently said that they want it to be even easier for developers to release games on PSN. Prepare yourself for this to get worse before it gets better.

[DrBloodmoney]

 

2 minutes ago, steel6burgh said:

Sony will end up getting sued for allowing such an addictive system and product, at which point , it's ruined for everyone.  

 

They can't, as Sony has no role in any leaderboard competition. 

 

The community created the competition, not Sony. There is no Sony leaderboard, and no indication that Sony has ever endorsed trophies as anything other than a fun little addition to games, as far as I'm aware. I don't think they can be held accountable for trophies being turned into a global competition - that's on us.

 

2 minutes ago, steel6burgh said:

Sony has already had to take steps to clean up the PS store.  These game look like shit on their store.  If I had one of the largest video game store and was one of the top platforms in gaming I don't think I'd want "jumping hotdog" crap posted up all over my store front.   

 

We could all but eliminate it ourselves by not rewarding it.  Or we can just wait until it's too late.

 

I'm already doing my part... 

...I don't have any of those Jumping Hotdog style games. 

 

There isn't much else I feel a responsibility to do beyond that though.

 

[steel6burgh]

9 minutes ago, Ashande said:

 

Basing it off of rarity alone would be manipulatable, would still have a system unbalanced in favor of those with deeper pockets (thus able to go eBay hunting for high popularity but low followthrough PS3 titles or start stocking up on older DLC), devalue games with significant Platinum difficulty but dedicated fanbases or niche games(such as most Souls titles and quite a few JRPGs), encourage stacking (by folks seeking out the “rarest” stacks), and make a significant number of triple A titles effectively worthless. The resulting Leaderboard would likely be just as flawed as the current one ostensibly is.

once again you seem to be striving for complete perfection all at once. Replacing complete shit with perfection isn't necessary.  It's only necessary to eliminate the shit and then we can strive for perfection.

[Ashande]

Just now, steel6burgh said:

once again you seem to be striving for complete perfection all at once. Replacing complete shit with perfection isn't necessary.  It's only necessary to eliminate the shit and then we can strive for perfection.

 

Incorrect. One, I’m not striving for anything, here. Two, what I’m stating is that replacing what you call “complete shit” with something else that has problems that ultimately lead to the same place is a waste of time and effort. If you cannot remove at least some of the problems, and all you are doing is shifting the problems to produce a result you find more favorable rather than one which is more equitable across the board, you haven’t accomplished anything. Three, you may not have seen the edit I added to my original post, but I pointed out that even with a rarity system, someone who spams enough Xump Jump stacks or whatever is still going to come out on top over someone who only has “legitimate” Platinums, just by virtue of sheer volume, something that is easily doable because they take 5 minutes instead of the 20-100 hours a “real” game typically would take.

[CelestialRequiem]

Also, this reminds me of something hilarious:

 

A German leaderboard chaser called me an elitist (not even sure why) and then he said that people are upset with the leaderboard situation because they cannot afford the bullshit games.

 

...How do you become more elitist than one who was mocking an economic class? These games really are indicative of their intellect.

[steel6burgh]

12 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

 

They can't, as Sony has no role in any leaderboard competition.

of course but they have compete control to eliminate the trophy system.  1st off Sony and others came up with these reward systems to addict people so they buy more games.  it's intentional.  Plenty of studies show people addicted to a thumbs up sound on FB.  Same thing with the ding form a trophy and Sony knows it.  It was all about keeping people addicted to the product.  Of course this was back when they were keeping you addicted to spending $100.00 per pop for their exclusives and high priced games.   

 

Today Sony could very well decide it isn't worth it for the $1.00 per game they rake in on the shovelware.  In the big scheme of things it's a small amount of their profit.  Now one would hope they would just eliminate the shovelware games from their store completely and keep the trophy system.  But who knows.  At some point it's going to be too much and I almost guarantee they take some additional action.  Look how the shovelware has escalated in just the past year.  If it keeps up at that rate something will be done about it.

 

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by steel6burgh

[Pots3k]

4 minutes ago, CelestialRequiem said:

Also, this reminds me of something hilarious:

 

A German leaderboard chaser called me an elitist (not even sure why) and then he said that people are upset with the leaderboard situation because they cannot afford the bullshit games.

 

...How do you become more elitist than one who was mocking an economic class? These games really are indicative of their intellect.

Holy crap that is impressively delusional thinking.

[DrBloodmoney]

1 minute ago, steel6burgh said:

Today Sony could very well decide it isn't worth it for the $1.00 per game they rake in on the shovelware.  In the big scheme of things it's a small amount of their profit.  Now one would hope they would just eliminate the shovelware games from their store completely and keep the trophy system.  But who knows.  At some point it's going to be too much and I almost guarantee they take some additional action.  Look how the shovelware has escalated in just the past year.  If it keeps up at that rate something will be done about it.

 

I agree, and I have said before that I suspect something will be done about it eventually - but we all need to take a breath, and stop taking these games so seriously. 

 

The Leaderboards have been in existence for about as long as trophies have.... and complaints that the "integrity of the system is gone" started about 12 nanoseconds after the first one went live.

 

The integrity is what you make of it - and no system, no matter how nuanced, cleverly worked out and maintained, will EVER satisfy people.

 

I just think that the solution to this kind of problem isn't practical - it's emotional.

 

The solution isn't to fix it - it's to stop caring that it's broken.

[steel6burgh]

7 minutes ago, Ashande said:

If you cannot remove at least some of the problems,

oh trust me it would eliminate the biggest problem.

 

8 minutes ago, Ashande said:

someone who spams enough Xump Jump stacks or whatever is still going to come out on top over someone who only has “legitimate” Platinums, just by virtue of sheer volume, something that is easily doable because they take 5 minutes instead of the 20-100 hours a “real” game typically would take.

not if you assign no point value for anything over say 75% average rarity.  then none of those games would count at all. It's a lot harder to nail down games with 50 to 75% rarrty then it is to ind ones with 99%.  Pretty much all the games  you only have to hold x for 3 minutes would be wiped out of the equation.  That alone is progress.

[You]

As of typing.

 

The former no1 guy on this site Hakoom is sitting in 8th. Once upon a time he was technically uncatchable.

 

Today he has 6,591,765 points and Ikemenzi has 7,986,135, a difference of nearly 1.5 million, that's almost 4 times the amount of trophy points I've got in my entire 13 years of fairly consistent game playing. And it was only a year ago or so that Hakoom was way ahead in 1st, due to so much dilution of the value of trophies, nullifying the PS3 and Vita era almost entirely, before the recent few years of easy games.

 

I mean it's kinda staggering that the difference between 1st and 4th is over a million points. These are score totals that certainly aren't healthy to anyone, but also the amount of points possible to earn these days is so high.

I am not surprised so many people are experiencing a sort of dissatisfaction or burnout seeing those "red numbers" next to their name when they see their profile. But these days, even playing hardcore for 100 hours a week on games you love playing, you are never going to "win" against multiple stacks of 5-10 min games.

 

So may as well just give up. It's honestly best to not even worry about it anyway, and just carry on playing games for fun.

 

Trophy growth is becoming exponential and the only person to win in the end, is the one with the biggest wallet. Not that anyone is ever going to win, because there's no finishing line.

 

At least people like Hakoom and Ikemenzi have "Guinness Records" certificates to their name along the way for achieving certain milestones along the way, so that's something to be proud of, I guess?

 

Everyone else coming after though, the only "achievement" they're probably gonna get, is debt, or a midlife crisis.

Edited August 30, 2022 by enaysoft

[DrBloodmoney]

5 minutes ago, steel6burgh said:

not if you assign no point value for anything over say 75% average rarity.  then none of those games would count at all. It's a lot harder to nail down games with 50 to 75% rarrty then it is to ind ones with 99%.  Pretty much all the games  you only have to hold x for 3 minutes would be wiped out of the equation.  That alone is progress.

 

You'd sweep a lot of decent games up in that wheelbarrow too though - and the one positive thing that can be said about the current system, is that it is non-judgemental. 

 

It doesn't try and categorise games in ANY way - it leaves that to the individual, so it can't be accused of, for example, lumping The Longest Road on Earth (a legit work of art) in with Gump Jump (an abject piece of trash).

 

 

Any formulaic determination would lose that final positive straw in the current system - and would immediately turn the site from what it is now (a mecca for all trophy hunters), into something else (a specialty site, passing judgement on them.)

 

I know all the arguments in favour of the kind of leaderboard you endorse - and I empathise with many of them...

...I just don't agree that the positives outweigh the negatives.

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by DrBloodmoney

[steel6burgh]

6 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

The Leaderboards have been in existence for about as long as trophies have.... and complaints that the "integrity of the system is gone" started about 12 nanoseconds after the first one went live.

Yeah I don't really care so much about the integrity of the leaderboard anymore as much as I care that the trophy system stays in place.  There was a post a few weeks back by someone who mentioned this could ruin the trophy system and i disagreed but the more I look over and see all these game popping up on the new games list and I see sony taking action with the store II start thinking maybe he is right.

 

I personally don't finish game at a quick enough pace to chase any leaderboard the way it is now or rarity.  I don't have enough trophies plain and simple to compete with either and that is ok.  I just like the hobby and want to see it be better and preserved more than anything.

Edited August 30, 2022 by steel6burgh

[DrBloodmoney]

Just now, steel6burgh said:

I personally don't finish game at a quick enough pace to chase any leaderboard the way it is now or rarity.  I don't have enough trophies plain and simple to compete with either and that is ok.  I just like the hobby and want to see it be better and preserved more than anything.

 

Me too - we just don't approach it the same way.

 

For me, I like to write about the games I play, and so my determination of what is a "game" as opposed to a "potato"...

...is whether I'd have anything interesting to say about it after-the-fact.

 

Rarity doesn't affect that...

...but quality does!

[CelestialRequiem]

3 minutes ago, enaysoft said:

Everyone else coming after though, the only "achievement" they're probably gonna get, is debt, or a midlife crisis.

I think once people experience a real career, they understand how valuable their time suddenly is.

 

I couldn't imagine the guilt that these guys are going to have in the future. Years of sacrifice for games you don't even enjoy; and for leaderboards that anyone worth a good God damn doesn't care about.

[steel6burgh]

2 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

You'd sweep a lot of decent games up in that wheelbarrow too though

true you would loose gamer score on trophies in almost every game.  Every game almost has a few trophies with really high average rarity.  I realize that but it would be the same for everyone though .

2 minutes ago, DrBloodmoney said:

Rarity doesn't affect that...

...but quality does!

yeah unfortunately to determine point values on quality we would be back to a few guys in the "smoke filled room" conspiring.    If we based it off quality elden ring and games like that would be worth a lot more.  In a perfect world that is how it would be.

[Ashande]

8 minutes ago, steel6burgh said:

oh trust me it would eliminate the biggest problem.

 

not if you assign no point value for anything over say 75% average rarity.  then none of those games would count at all. It's a lot harder to nail down games with 50 to 75% rarrty then it is to ind ones with 99%.  Pretty much all the games  you only have to hold x for 3 minutes would be wiped out of the equation.  That alone is progress.

 

As @DrBloodmoney pointed out (and as I referenced in my initial post pointing out the issues with a rarity-based leaderboard), that’s going to sweep plenty of legitimate games (or at least a chunk of their trophies) into the trash, too. My opinion is that doing such is not an improvement. Yours may be different.

[You]

7 minutes ago, CelestialRequiem said:

I think once people experience a real career, they understand how valuable their time suddenly is.

 

I couldn't imagine the guilt that these guys are going to have in the future. Years of sacrifice for games you don't even enjoy; and for leaderboards that anyone worth a good God damn doesn't care about.

 

Be careful there mate, pointing that fact out is likely to get you a warning point from the mods.

I am of course being a bit facetious, but still, I've never jumped on board for the "use my free time for trophies instead of what's fun" but I do worry about all the thousands of random people buying this shit and wondering about how will much regret they are going to have later.

 

Rather them than me. I do have hope though, cos you know there are many topics like this being created, almost daily now. With people saying stuff like "Ok I played a ton of these games, but now I'm sick of it and regret it". There is definitely hope.

 

We need about 30 stacks per day, no 100 or 200 stacks a day, a 1000 a day.

 

The best way of solving or even acknowledging a problem, is for the problem to get so bad, that it can no longer be denied.

 

Still imagine being a trophy hunter and waking up each day and seeing 5-10 new stacks and thinking

"Ahhhh shiiiitttt, I'm going to have to buy these later tonight aren't I ?!"

Edited August 30, 2022 by enaysoft

[steel6burgh]

1 minute ago, enaysoft said:

cos you know there are many topics like this being created, almost daily now. With people saying stuff like "Ok I played a ton of these games, but now I'm sick of it and regret it". There is definitely hope.

I think these posts are making a difference.  I'm sure some people out there are reading this stuff and saying, "maybe they are right," I am wasting my time.

[DrBloodmoney]

10 minutes ago, steel6burgh said:

true you would loose gamer score on trophies in almost every game.  Every game almost has a few trophies with really high average rarity.  I realize that but it would be the same for everyone though .

 

True.

 

Like I said - I'm not indifferent to the concerns - I share some of them, but I just don't think anything is solved by rarity boards.

 

I'm wary of continuing to debate here, as it feels a little hollow, since this thread will be locked shortly, but I will say this:

 

I realise the natural assumption is that anyone arguing against such changes is doing so out of personal stake - but I assure you I'm not.

There is a variety of alternate leaderboards on other sites, including Rarity ones, and personally, I do actually rank a lot higher on those than on the real LB...

 

(as an example, this is me on PSNTL:)

 

...but the fact remains - no one cares about any placement other than the main one, as they are not real.

(Let's face it, few even really cares about the real one ?)

 

The others might feel nice to see for a moment...

...but they are just statistical mirages at best, or fodder for nasty judgemental condescension in the wrong hands, at worst.

Edited August 30, 2022 by DrBloodmoney

[Pots3k]

1 minute ago, steel6burgh said:

I think these posts are making a difference.  I'm sure some people out there are reading this stuff and saying, "maybe they are right," I am wasting my time.

That is one of the reasons I made this post in the first place. If people are talking about this, maybe something somewhere will change. Yes, I get that it's infinitely unimportant in the face of everything else going on in the world, but it's a little something that brings myself and many others joy at the end of our work week. It wouldn't take much effort at all to successfully differentiate between real games and the shovelware.