What is this PS5 OS bug getting people flagged? How to avoid it?

[TheRedMaverick]

3 hours ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

 

the real question is why is the CRT not removing flags for a known bug that's beyond the player's control when playing a game normally. at this point trying to "maintain the integrity of the leaderboard" is a complete farce 

I can see an argument for both sides. On one hand, yes it does suck for people to be punished for something unknown to them or somewhat out of their control. On the other hand, this creates a nightmare scenario for the CRT where now every flag, someone will claim it was because of this glitch. How does that get rectified? You can ask people to submit footage of it happening but not everyone will have the foresight to do that in time. Not to mention how long it takes the CRT to get to flags now, it would be 10 times worse with something like this.

[zizimonster]

3 hours ago, iriihutoR84 said:

So, why does it happen and how can it be avoided?

So far

 

 

...it has only affected players who played those abominations. So, best to avoid them altogether.

[Ultraxian]

3 hours ago, iriihutoR84 said:

So, why does it happen and how can it be avoided?

 I'm not sure why it happens as I don't have a ps5 yet and won't till the next version comes out next year.

The most logical answer to how it can be avoided is don't buy a ps5.

Edited September 26, 2022 by Ultraxian

[janpham]

23 minutes ago, Ashande said:

 

Even assuming your story is intended to be true in some way - rather than just a “lol randumb!” rant in a poor attempt at trolling - then it serves as an “example” of the assumed “bug” at work, with a rationale behind it. It doesn’t prove such a “bug” doesn’t exist - which seems to be your stance, though correct me if I’m wrong - but instead presents one situation that might trigger such a bug.

 

Further, while I guess that’s on me since I suggested you use the Quote tool myself, I thought it was relatively implicit that you use it when referencing what you’re talking about, not just because it’s there. But hey, you do you.

 

True story. No trolling. Wouldn't call it a bug. Synchronizing thousands of Platinums from all regions takes time. It is what it is. And if console and Sony servers are not yet synchronized, the "trophy system" can't function. It provides "candys", but it wants to check 1) do you have that special candy already = no trophy popping 2) you don't have that candy = trophy popping. If the drug shop cannot see your drugs in the pockets, it can't act. IT software works like that. 

Edited September 26, 2022 by janpham

[MonaSaxPayne]

1 hour ago, Milktastrophe said:

Didn't they allow the PS4 bug where trophies unlock for a different game when you download multiple games at once? If that bug was allowed then this PS5 bug should be allowed.

consistency doesn’t seem to be the CRTs strong point 

[Jelly Soup]

6 hours ago, TheRedMaverick said:

I can see an argument for both sides. On one hand, yes it does suck for people to be punished for something unknown to them or somewhat out of their control. On the other hand, this creates a nightmare scenario for the CRT where now every flag, someone will claim it was because of this glitch. How does that get rectified? You can ask people to submit footage of it happening but not everyone will have the foresight to do that in time. Not to mention how long it takes the CRT to get to flags now, it would be 10 times worse with something like this.

 

I follow the logic, but the issue is more that this line of thinking tends to be used as a cudgel. It's a known issue and it's all tossed on to an unsuspecting player to prove something they may not have known existed. That's no way to run a railroad.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Jelly Soup
Removing AJ argument, looks like his posts were purged.

[Ashande]

Neat! The magic pixies came and cleaned things up! Good.

 

So, about the bug. Does anyone have video documentation of it, other than the previously posted one? Has anyone here attempted to duplicate/trigger it on purpose? Know a profile that was definitely affected by it, so we can attempt to dissect it and see what might have gone wrong? It’s time for some CSI Shiznizzle.

[Beyondthegrave07]

Guys, get back on topic or I will lock this thread. I had to do a lot of cleanup and if you're not going to stay on topic, don't post here.

[TheRedMaverick]

7 minutes ago, Jelly Soup said:

 

I follow the logic, but the issue is more that this line of thinking tends to be used as a cudgel. It's a known issue and it's all tossed on to an unsuspecting player to prove something they may not have known existed. That's no way to run a railroad.

I mean I feel the same way about players unsuspectingly getting their trophies autopopped in hacked lobbies like in Black Ops II. It sucks that an innocent player is forced to hide one of those games if that happens just to participate in the leaderboards, but they still do get flagged and at least that has a potential solution (whitelist, although when that would actually be implemented...is another story).

Not sure how this particular issue could be rectified though as it's more complicated. When this original dispute happen, my suggestion was to give players a slap on the wrist by lifting the flag if it's just 1 game and then giving them a warning, but that's not really a perfect solution either. This is sort of what kind of happened in this case (although not sure if it's exactly the same bug, but it seems like similar circumstances):
 

The CRT even weigh in on the situation in that dispute, and mention any future cases of this will just stay flagged, but maybe the rules need to be updated with this information for transparency if that's the way it goes. Not sure if there would be an easy solution for this.

 

[iriihutoR84]

 

Sounds like this won't happen to me but the core of it is that if you earn trophies simultaneously as the PS5 is synching trophies with PSN, the system will pop those trophies you earned after the synching has completed? This will create impossible time stamps since the trophies don't actually pop when they were earned them but when the synching completed.

 

Is this something that can only happen with the first game in a session? Ikemenzi mentioned turning on the console and waiting 10 minutes solves it. So it would be risk free to for example earn 100 ThiGames plats in three hours as long as the first game's trophies function properly?

 

And playing offline would completely prevent this bug from happening?

Edited September 27, 2022 by iriihutoR84

[SnowxSakura]

What are the odds of this happening versus the bug where trophies pop, but won't sync to psn until a few hours later?

[Smashero]

Hm...
And here it was solved differently:
 

So what with the previous flags given for same "reason"?
Edit:
O, dispute of AffectatiousDonk was removed...

Edited October 10, 2022 by Smashero

[HusKy]

There was this peculiar case where one guy instantly unlocked trophies in one game but he actually played a different game before that (or something similar). It was an issue in PS4 OS and he is still on the leaderboard. Does anyone remember? I can't find it.

[Stevieboy]

6 minutes ago, HusKy said:

There was this peculiar case where one guy instantly unlocked trophies in one game but he actually played a different game before that (or something similar). It was an issue in PS4 OS and he is still on the leaderboard. Does anyone remember? I can't find it.

 

https://psnprofiles.com/100-club/2249-knack

[MonaSaxPayne]

On 10/9/2022 at 9:22 AM, Smashero said:

Hm...
And here it was solved differently:
 

So what with the previous flags given for same "reason"?
Edit:
O, dispute of AffectatiousDonk was removed...

 

yup. noticed he was unflagged even tho it was the same issue. not surprised the dispute got deleted lol

 

5 minutes ago, HusKy said:

There was this peculiar case where one guy instantly unlocked trophies in one game but he actually played a different game before that (or something similar). It was an issue in PS4 OS and he is still on the leaderboard. Does anyone remember? I can't find it.

 

it was for knack

 

https://psnprofiles.com/100-club/2249-knack

[MidnightDragon]

I read it’s more likely if you have an insane number of games. I have like 210, so doubt I’ll have a problem when the time comes.

[zizimonster]

8 minutes ago, MidnightDragon said:

I read it’s more likely if you have an insane number of games. I have like 210, so doubt I’ll have a problem when the time comes.

Based on what I've read so far, it will not happen even though you have thousands of trophy lists on your PSN profile if you never touch those 5-minute abominations.

[HusKy]

1 hour ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

it was for knack

 

https://psnprofiles.com/100-club/2249-knack

 

Right. So what is the difference between this old PS4 OS bug and current PS5 bug? Why isn't the PS4 bug also flagged?

[MonaSaxPayne]

5 minutes ago, HusKy said:

 

Right. So what is the difference between this old PS4 OS bug and current PS5 bug? Why isn't the PS4 bug also flagged?

Who knows? Maybe this is CRT’s way of discouraging ppl from playing shovelware to climb the leaderboards lol

[MidnightDragon]

58 minutes ago, zizimonster said:

Based on what I've read so far, it will not happen even though you have thousands of trophy lists on your PSN profile if you never touch those 5-minute abominations.

I don't touch those and 5 minutes is being generous in most cases.  

[Cryogenicide_X]

I don't understand what you're all talking about? Can someone explain what this glitch is in simple terms ?

[Ashande]

15 minutes ago, Cryogenicide_X said:

I don't understand what you're all talking about? Can someone explain what this glitch is in simple terms ?

 

As I understand it: In some instances - which generally appear to be related to profiles with a huge number of trophies - the PS5’s Trophy system takes a minute to “warm up” and do all it’s busywork in the background (at least, that seems to be the running theory.)

 

During that time, if one were to pop trophies - in particular, a decent number of them, such as might occur when playing the ~2 minute platinum type games - they wouldn’t register right away, instead all going off at once when the system is done doing whatever it was doing with the Trophy system in the background. Which can lead to them popping out of order and with incorrect timestamps, which then looks hinky.

[Ashande]

Just mulling things over in my head, and it occurs to me that it may not even be a “bug” by the standard definition. It may very well be working as designed - though that design is potentially causing problems. From what information we have, it seems to primarily affect people with exceptionally large trophy/game counts (in many cases from different regions.) That means a bigger database(s) for the system to parse when it does the initial bootup/synch/whatever. It’s like opening an Excel spreadsheet; on most computers, one that is only 5 megs (arbitrary number) is going to load faster than one that is 500 megs (also arbitrary, but you get the point.) Then it has to compare the data in that spreadsheet to the version of it on their server, make whatever adjustments are necessary to sync the two, then redownload the “complete and accurate” version to the console. If you have a handful of games/lists and sub-2,000 trophies, that probably doesn’t take very long, so it’s mostly seamless and unnoticed, but the time/processing requirement is only going to increase. If you have long stretches where you’re either playing offline, not powering down/up (to trigger an automatic sync) or playing a lot of rapidfire games in a short time frame, the processing time on updating that list is going to be longer still.

 

When I replaced my Vita last week, one of the first things I did was sync Trophies on it. This took roughly two minutes (on a Japanese 2000 series Vita, with 200mbps Internet, if that’s of relevance.) That’s for a profile with around 700 games, 300 completed, and 25k trophies (if memory serves. Actual numbers may be a bit lower or higher, and I have too many bloody tabs open right now to double check. ?) I don’t know if it was synching from the last time I had a working Vita (IE: using what profile data was on the memory card I put in in), in which case it was only around a year and a half out of date, or if it was doing a “full download” based on the (nonexistent) Profile data on the internal memory. In either case, it took a good chunk of time. But with the Vita (and the PS3 and PS4, if memory serves), it has to do so manually, and you cannot do anything else while it’s happening. On PS5, it’s automatic when you boot up the console, and it lets you do whatever you want while it’s going on, which is where I suspect the trouble is.

 

It seems likely that while it’s doing whatever voodoo it’s doing to your Profile during that sync/startup phase, the Profile is, in essence, “locked.” Seems logical; don’t want things fiddling with a file while you’re trying to do a compare-and-update. So the PS5 shunts any Profile or Trophy changes into a queue until the operation completes, at which point the queue triggers, making all the changes necessary at once - potentially out of order and almost certainly with timestamps different than what actually occurred, due to whatever arcane process Sony implements to decide the order of operations.

 

So far as Sony is concerned, it is likely that this is fine and working as intended. They’ve prevented database corruption by keeping the file “safe” until the system was done with it, you were still awarded whatever Trophies you were supposed to or had whatever games added to your library that you were supposed to. It’s unlikely that Sony or whatever code jockeys they contracted out to handle the system were concerned about “What if they pop out of order or too close together?” because that is only relevant to a small percentage of PS5 owners, and the issue is only going to crop up on a percent-of-a-percent of that group (those who have truly prodigious Profile sizes. Insert joke here.)

 

Anyway, that’s all just conjecture. Unless we can get one of the PS5’s system architects on the horn to explain exactly what it’s doing and when, it’s unlikely to ever be 100% answered… but I feel like the logic is at least somewhat sound.

[dmland12]

2 hours ago, HusKy said:

 

Right. So what is the difference between this old PS4 OS bug and current PS5 bug? Why isn't the PS4 bug also flagged?

 

Well that old bug was a limited time thing and it occured before the PS4 was able to be cheated.

 

The first part is important because it sets a strict time period where something like that could occur.  So you can't just cheat and then use it as an excuse for everything.  Allowing that bug doesn't give cheaters any real opening.  The second part establishes that it in fact wasn't cheated.

 

Now maybe you think neither should matter.  I don't really buy it myself.  I think we shouldn't be flagging anyone that didn't cheat and with this bug we can no longer tell the difference in many cases, so the leaderboard will be completely broken.  I suppose that's what the CRT is really trying to avoid.

[Raidou Kuzunoha XIV]

53 minutes ago, Ashande said:

When I replaced my Vita last week, one of the first things I did was sync Trophies on it. This took roughly two minutes (on a Japanese 2000 series Vita, with 200mbps Internet, if that’s of relevance.) That’s for a profile with around 700 games, 300 completed, and 25k trophies (if memory serves. Actual numbers may be a bit lower or higher, and I have too many bloody tabs open right now to double check. ?) I don’t know if it was synching from the last time I had a working Vita (IE: using what profile data was on the memory card I put in in), in which case it was only around a year and a half out of date, or if it was doing a “full download” based on the (nonexistent) Profile data on the internal memory. In either case, it took a good chunk of time. But with the Vita (and the PS3 and PS4, if memory serves), it has to do so manually, and you cannot do anything else while it’s happening. On PS5, it’s automatic when you boot up the console, and it lets you do whatever you want while it’s going on, which is where I suspect the trouble is.

 

Just to add onto this, I've had to replace my PS3 twice in the past, and both times when it came to re-syncing my trophies on the new consoles, it took what felt like forever, and had to be initiated several times because it'd keep getting to a certain percentage before failing with an error message. Once all trophies were synced with the system, it didn't happen again. Syncing new trophies would still be the usual slowness of PS3 trophy syncing, but at least not 20+ minutes slow with multiple errors. And this was back when I had much fewer trophy lists on my account, maybe 600 games or so at most when I last replaced my PS3 back in 2016 or so?

 

So I think your theory is probably pretty accurate, and makes me think the issue on PS5 may sadly never be "fixed".