How does the community want the "PS5 OS Autopop 'Glitch'" cheater reports to be handled?

[ProfBambam55]

On 4/30/2020 at 9:35 PM, B1rvine said:

 

No specifics were discussed, it was just mentioned while requesting more staff members such as @Squirlruler. However, if it were up to me, we need new leaderboard rules, at the very least to cover what would fall under a whitelisted status. CRT would be able to click "whitelist" instead of "cheat." If whitelisted, the user doesn't need to remove the game from their list, but it wouldn't be included in the First/Latest/Fastest achievers lists. They'd get a notification similar to the current one explaining what the status means. 

 

Things I'd like to be whitelisted would include:

• Any early PS3 games without encryption.
• Any games hackers can affect you.
• For impossible timestamps due to known Sony glitches (Leap Year Glitch / PS4-3 Wrong Game Upload Glitch)

I have a few other things in mind, but it would only make sense with new rules in general. 

 

For now, I'll take (almost) any whitelist.

 

 

15 minutes ago, KimmysGotGame said:

Polls like this have been effective when they were made by a staff member with the power to make the change. Both of the times the metric for dlc rarity was changed it was because the majority of people wanted the system to be changed. As of this post the overwhelming majority (80%) want the rules changed on this but disagree with the specifics of the change. Being open to a change in the rules has improved my opinion of the crt by quite a bit.

 

5 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

 

it's possible there's a misunderstanding here on my part...I think some of the options listed in the poll might be a new feature to the site mods that the crt can't program on their own...I think the greatest idea is above in @B1rvine's post a few years back...is this not the same idea as the one being discussed?...or am I misunderstanding what some of the options in the poll Imply and no new features are needed for staff?...

 

edit: I posted this in completely the wrong thread...my apologies...quoting across threads on mobile confuses me...

 

[TomataEighty9]

14 hours ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

but I'd prefer that innocent ppl not be wrongly flagged just because cheaters might escape through the net as well.. instead of a situation that punishes the legitimately innocent while trying to catch every single cheater 

 

I agree with this  

 

In MY opinion, it should be like the law. Everyone should be seen as innocent, until PROVEN guilty. 

 

I always found it funny, that when someone it hit with a flag, he then has to prove he's innocent. Like what?  

 

It should be the other way around. The one who flagged it, should, together with the CRT, PROVE that said person is guilty of cheating. Just my own opinion. 

[ChenZheCHN]

I voted for “Unlimited (without the requirement of hiding the games)”, because considering the atmosphere that people usually think a profile with hidden trophies means cheating, I think it’s unfair to make people hide their games / trophies when they actually did not cheat.

 

As I said before, I have a suggestion. I recommend using a semi-removing (or whitelisting, whatever you call it): removing them from the game’s own first/latest/fastest leaderboard to avoid ruining time records, but not removing or requiring them to hide their games before they can return to the main leaderboard.

 

This may seem a bit off-topic, but could anyone tell me how to avoid the PS5 autopop glitch? Press the PS button, and if I see a list of trophies, I’ll be fine, right?

Edited October 16, 2022 by ChenZheCHN

[DeepEyes7]

1 hour ago, TomataEighty9 said:

It should be the other way around. The one who flagged it, should, together with the CRT, PROVE that said person is guilty of cheating. Just my own opinion. 

 

When you report someone, and for the CRT to approves it you don't need to explain why the user is cheating?

[ZN-42-VS]

17 hours ago, B1rvine said:

This poll is to get community feedback on how the "PS5 Autopop Glitch" should be handled, in regards to flags/cheats, for a "semi-whitelist".

 

The tdlr; is super fast games can have impossible timestamps, due to how the system syncs, and problems arise by leaving these flagged for cheating, as well as leaving them unflagged as not cheating. For more information, read the following topic in this forum post. 

 

Currently, this issue only appears to affect EZPZ's, and the consensus is "nobody would cheat such an easy quick game", and that's generally believable, but then again there's been definite cases where simple games such as Aab's Animals was cheated.

 

Potential issues to consider:

• The speedrun leaderboards may severely be impacted.
• This may eventually affect normal games as well.
• The issue is avoidable, if you know about it and how to avoid it.
• The glitch may be used as excuse for longer games, if only a few trophies are autopopped.

 

Voting choices:

If you're wondering where "one/two with the requirement to hide" is, I didn't include it, since effectively the three strike system in place currently would require someone to hide the games.

 

 

I had to hide a game to stay visible on the leaderboard, which is rather unfair. A lot of issues can be addressed to Sony and their interface team, but instead of doing so, the end-user is being punished and forced to hide legally played games. 
 

Considering that a lot of people are being treated unfair, even thinking of canceling their psnprofiles membership, I am thankful that B1rvine initiated this investigation. With this said I am really hoping to be able to unhide the game which I had to hide to stay on the leaderboard. I am quiet confident that the real cheaters can be picked out and that they will be banned from this amazing community. Again I am really thankful and grateful to be part of this amazing site, but fairness has to be respected.

 

Thanks for this honest and respectful poll.

[KimmysGotGame]

3 hours ago, ProfBambam55 said:

it's possible there's a misunderstanding here on my part...I think some of the options listed in the poll might be a new feature to the site mods that the crt can't program on their own...I think the greatest idea is above in B1rvine's post a few years back...is this not the same idea as the one being discussed?...or am I misunderstanding what some of the options in the poll Imply and no new features are needed for staff?...

CRT are able to approve and remove flags. A system might need to be made to automate a whilelist but they are able to enforce any of those options without any kind of automation. If the most popular option is chosen then they can just reject any flags that this bug applies to while they're reviewing the report. If one of the other choices are put in place then they can apply the flag until the games are hidden and then remove the flag once they're hidden.

[TomataEighty9]

2 hours ago, DeepEyes7 said:

 

When you report someone, and for the CRT to approves it you don't need to explain why the user is cheating?

maybe im misunderstanding something, but if i understand correct, people report “A”.

 

the CRT team approves.

 

so if “A” doesnt make a dispute, he is just guilty and accepts?

 

If that’s right, i think that’s a wrong method.

 

it should be a case of The CRT and The reporter, PROVING WHY “A” is guilty, not a matter of “A” having to prove his innocence.

 

my humble opinion ?

 

just find it funny that The proof of burden is reversed here, compared to real life ?

[DeepEyes7]

32 minutes ago, TomataEighty9 said:

maybe im misunderstanding something, but if i understand correct, people report “A”.

 

the CRT team approves.

 

so if “A” doesnt make a dispute, he is just guilty and accepts?

 

If that’s right, i think that’s a wrong method.

 

it should be a case of The CRT and The reporter, PROVING WHY “A” is guilty, not a matter of “A” having to prove his innocence.

 

my humble opinion

 

just find it funny that The proof of burden is reversed here, compared to real life

 

So, if "A" doesn't accept that he is guilty or can't prove that he is innocent then only in that moment "A" can be flagged? Only when the dispute is opened? Then why anyone will open a dispute if that is the only way to be flagged?

 

If you fail to pay your Credit Card, you are reported by your bank to the respective risk centers (different methods for every country) and then you are "branded" as someone in debt, only when you go and pay or make a payment arrangement is that you are "clean" otherwise you will continue "branded" and nobody will give you credit again

 

Sorry but that is very convenient for the cheater.

[TomataEighty9]

4 minutes ago, DeepEyes7 said:

 

So, if "A" doesn't accept that he is guilty or can't prove that he is innocent then only in that moment "A" can be flagged? Only when the dispute is opened? Then why anyone will open a dispute if that is the only way to be flagged?

 

If you fail to pay your Credit Card, you are reported by your bank to the respective risk centers (different methods for every country) and then you are "branded" as someone in debt, only when you go and pay or make a payment arrangement is that you are "clean" otherwise you will continue "branded" and nobody will give you credit again

 

Sorry but that is very convenient for the cheater.

bad example.

 

but being guilty, until YOU prove your innocence, is just wrong.

 

imagine being accused of murder, being punished, until you have proven your innocence ?

 

thats why in real life, you are innocent until proven guilty, not The other Way around. 
 

it seems very convenient for The reporter and The CRT, that The proof of burden is reversed on this site ?

Edited October 15, 2022 by TomataEighty9

[DeepEyes7]

2 minutes ago, TomataEighty9 said:

bad example.

 

but being guilty, until YOU prove your innocence, is just wrong.

 

imagine being accused of murder, being punished, until you have proven your innocence

 

thats why in real life, you are innocent until proven guilty, not The other Way around. 
 

it seems very convenient for The reporter and The CRT, that The proof of burden is reversed on this site

 

I see your point, but since you can't go here and caught the cheater and bring them to "justice" (because you have proof of cheating, edited timestamps, CFW or whatever) for them to be found guilty or prove innocence and just until that moment then be flagged...

 

How should be the flagging system with your example, if the cheater won't answer or anything to accusations or proof of cheating?

[TomataEighty9]

2 minutes ago, DeepEyes7 said:

 

I see your point, but since you can't go here and caught the cheater and bring them to "justice" (because you have proof of cheating, edited timestamps, CFW or whatever) for them to be found guilty or prove innocence and just until that moment then be flagged...

 

How should be the flagging system with your example, if the cheater won't answer or anything to accusations or proof of cheating?

If there is clear proof (just like video proof against a killer), Then he is proven guilty ?

 

if there’s any doubt, Then the potential cheater, should be innocent until it Can be proved.

 

just my opinion ?

[DeepEyes7]

Just now, TomataEighty9 said:

If there is clear proof (just like video proof against a killer), Then he is proven guilty

 

if there’s any doubt, Then the potential cheater, should be innocent until it Can be proved.

 

just my opinion

 

Yes, but when you report someone you have clear proof, like i.e. impossible order unlocking trophies, you send that to the CRT and then they agree and flag the user...

 

I think that your point is more for the cases when the CRT has set flags on weak proof or suppositions of some users, in that cases I agree with you, but when the proof is clear then setting the flag is ok

 

If someone thinks that they has been false flagged thats when the disputes are opened.

 

I dont know if you want an open consensus with the users to agree if the proof is clear enough for each possible cheater? Because that is maybe the only thing that the CRT is doing by themselves without asking anyone because... thats their job...

[TomataEighty9]

14 minutes ago, DeepEyes7 said:

 

Yes, but when you report someone you have clear proof, like i.e. impossible order unlocking trophies, you send that to the CRT and then they agree and flag the user...

 

I think that your point is more for the cases when the CRT has set flags on weak proof or suppositions of some users, in that cases I agree with you, but when the proof is clear then setting the flag is ok

 

If someone thinks that they has been false flagged thats when the disputes are opened.

 

I dont know if you want an open consensus with the users to agree if the proof is clear enough for each possible cheater? Because that is maybe the only thing that the CRT is doing by themselves without asking anyone because... thats their job...

exactly. If The proof is clear, Then it is no problem. Im talking about if there is any reasonable doubt, The doubt should Fall in favor of The accused. Just like in real life ?

[ExHaseo]

Sony generally fixes problems like this. I think it's best to just let some cheaters through until it gets fixed. If someone is cheating, they'll more than likely get caught on something else anyway.

[Xylobe]

I don't think there's any reason to consider potential for abuse at the moment, given that it hasn't happened yet and (at least as far as I can tell) it's not yet clear whether it can be done for games that can't unlock a lot of trophies in a very short time anyway. Unless I'm wrong on either count, I'm very much of the opinion that known and reproducible glitches shouldn't be flagged or hidden.

[visvoer18]

18 minutes ago, ExHaseo said:

Sony generally fixes problems like this. I think it's best to just let some cheaters through until it gets fixed. If someone is cheating, they'll more than likely get caught on something else anyway.

also for the most parrt this effects the BIG trophy hunters like ikemenzi etc. their profiles are wya more looked at already in the first place

[Valzentia]

It should have never been flaggable to begin with.

 

It seems to be happening to games at random going by what Ikemenzi said, and it's an operating system bug that can affect literally anyone. You shouldn't punish people for Sony being unable to properly do quality assurance.

[ZN-42-VS]

2 hours ago, TomataEighty9 said:

maybe im misunderstanding something, but if i understand correct, people report “A”.

 

the CRT team approves.

 

so if “A” doesnt make a dispute, he is just guilty and accepts?

 

If that’s right, i think that’s a wrong method.

 

it should be a case of The CRT and The reporter, PROVING WHY “A” is guilty, not a matter of “A” having to prove his innocence.

 

my humble opinion ?

 

just find it funny that The proof of burden is reversed here, compared to real life ?

I totally agree!!

[Maverick6146]

First of all i think the clarification needs to be made that it is the impossible timestamp that causes the account to be flagged, not the player's intention, awareness, etc. I am against on the practice that people got labelled but that's a totally different topic.

 

That said, the starting point can be hiding the game w/o flag then a more strict can be introduced at a later time.

 

One thing though, if this particular bug is proved to be not able to reproduced reliably then it is another story.

[BlindMango]

So the issue is that when people play shovelware garbage that sometimes the trophy list doesn't load in properly and then whenever it does all the trophies come in an improper order?

 

Honestly with shovelware, I don't really see a point in flagging people if they run into an OS glitch because if you decide to "play" the "game", cheat, or get the OS glitch, you're still getting the platinum trophy for these "games" within a minute or two anyway. Should it really be monitored this closely for "games" you can get the platinum within 1 - 2 minutes in anyway? I dunno it just seems like a big waste of time for the CRT, like they're sifting through a garbage dump with these games and are trying to organize the garbage that smells bad from the trash that smells slightly worse and wasting a lot of their time when they could be focusing on kids cheating on real games that aren't shovelware that require actual skill and effort

 

If the game isn't shovelware though, that's where I think it should be looked into more closely. I think the less time we all spend focusing on these garbage games, the better off we'll all be lol

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by BlindMango

[Gattusso02]

 Innocent people should not be made to suffer to keep the truly guilty in check. I personally prefer short plats with some forms of simple gameplay versus just any spam x game but these games were listed by Sony whose trophies can legitimately be earned by playing the game. True, the issues may be with Sony with their go signals on what gets published or their capacity/awareness to handle this OS bug but for the meantime, the bug exists and innocent people who have no intention to exploit or cheat should not suffer.

[maisie666]

5 hours ago, BlindMango said:

So the issue is that when people play shovelware garbage that sometimes the trophy list doesn't load in properly and then whenever it does all the trophies come in an improper order?

 

Honestly with shovelware, I don't really see a point in flagging people if they run into an OS glitch because if you decide to "play" the "game", cheat, or get the OS glitch, you're still getting the platinum trophy for these "games" within a minute or two anyway. Should it really be monitored this closely for "games" you can get the platinum within 1 - 2 minutes in anyway? I dunno it just seems like a big waste of time for the CRT, like they're sifting through a garbage dump with these games and are trying to organize the garbage that smells bad from the trash that smells slightly worse and wasting a lot of their time when they could be focusing on kids cheating on real games that aren't shovelware that require actual skill and effort

 

If the game isn't shovelware though, that's where I think it should be looked into more closely. I think the less time we all spend focusing on these garbage games, the better off we'll all be lol

 

This works for me, no flag for shovelware games as a practical solution.  Looks like its rare enough that it should be apparent if it was being abused.  Much closer look on normal games. 

Edited October 16, 2022 by maisie666

[AJ_-_808]

4 hours ago, BlindMango said:

Snip

 

 

Apparently, the issue can also affect normal games- if there happens to be a trophy popped within 15 minutes of starting up the ps5.

 

If I understand correctly, for people with massive trophy counts, anything earned while the ps5 is still loading their trophy list gets queued until it's done loading, and then pops alongside the next trophy earned, except it pops with the wrong timestamp 

[B1rvine]

Just checking in. I’ll be out a few days for real life things. 
 

I’ll keep the poll up for a good while.
 

I probably should have posted a lot more in my initial post. The real issue isn’t so much the “shovelware” itself, but how to deal with real games that this will inevitably affect, when we can’t tell the difference. 
 

The main question I saw from users is about how things would work, everything would be manually done by the CRT, this wouldn’t be an automatic process.

 

Cheers,

[Bloke]

Seeing as this flagging may have an effect on non-shovelware games...

 

If an operating system bug leads to trophies being earned in an impossible timeframe, which could have an effect on 100% fastest leaderboard placement, the game should be flagged and remain so. Trophies were earned not in the intended manner and may be able to be exploited in the future.

 

This sort of thing is not fair on players who try to get on the 100% fastest leaderboards and should be in the report category of 'trophies earned in an impossible timeframe'. 

 

After some thought, i think players should have unlimited flags on OS based bugs unlocking trophies, however should be hidden. As CRT may not be able to tell the difference between players knowing about the bug/not knowing and players mistakenly having trophies unlock/exploiting, their bugged trophies should not count towards leaderboards and remain hidden.