How does the community want the "PS5 OS Autopop 'Glitch'" cheater reports to be handled?

[Bumperklever]

To set the baseline:

1. There is a bug that happens on PS5 consoles which make the trophies appear late and therefore autopops, the bug in the OS is of course sony's fault;

2. This PS5 OS bug is now a well known bug and should be in atleast the circles of the top leaderboard;

3. There is an easy way to prevent this bug to happen by just "warming up the game" before actually earning trophies;            

4. This bug effects any game, so long and EZPZ ones; 

 

So with that out of the way:

- The list still has impossible timestamps, therefore the list is "cheated" this indirectly results in a much faster trophy list;

- Therefore people that or can use this bug can misuse it to cut of lets say 15 minutes out of the game;

- Depending on the list, 15 minutes can be a major time decrease;

 

So in the end:

- I think the end user shouldn't be punished for life due to a bug at Sony's side;

- But I do think there is very easy fix for the bug;

- I don't think the solution should hurt people that likes to speedrun games;

 

For me the best solution is Unlimited flags, but still needs to hide the game.

 

I think the worst solution would be to fully allow this cuz:

- In the top leaderboard actually hacking may actually be a viable way to gain some ranks with even more minimal effort;

- Do note that I can also replace the PS5 OS bug in my post with PS3 online hackers. Allowing it all just screams for a bearput to open;

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by Bumperklever

[Baker]

Let’s just get rid of the leaderboards. 
 

Problem(s) solved.

[Rick_Sanchez]

2 minutes ago, Baker said:

Let’s just get rid of the leaderboards. 
 

Problem(s) solved.

You are technically correct!

[Smashero]

13 minutes ago, Baker said:

Let’s just get rid of the leaderboards. 
 

Problem(s) solved.

You want to raise rate of suicides?

[Baker]

2 minutes ago, Smashero said:

You want to raise rate of suicides?

Let’s get rid of trophy rarities too while we’re at it.  I can only dream..

 

I’ll stop derailing now.

[ProfBambam55]

2 hours ago, Bumperklever said:

The list still has impossible timestamps, therefore the list is "cheated" this indirectly results in a much faster trophy list;

 

- Do note that I can also replace the PS5 OS bug in my post with PS3 online hackers. Allowing it all just screams for a bearput to open;

 

I quoted you because I think your post well represents an opinion that others might share...i do have some questions though about this point of view:

 

the people this glitch occurs to, do you think they earned any of the trophies without meeting the requirements intended by the developer/sony/this web site/etc.?...

 

aside from fear of the unknown (floodgates), is your only concern the %100 fastest achievers leaderboard in allowing these games on the lbs?...I understand fastest achievers stats are used to detect cheaters but why should that have an impact on someone's placement on the unrelated statistics of the main lb if they haven't cheated?...

 

edit: upon further thought, I think what this really boils down to is 2 simpke choices:

do we remove people who haven't cheated from the leaderboards to discourage cheating?...

or do we let people who haven't cheated on the leaderboatds and possibly have hackers slip through the cracks as a result?...

 

I think both open floodgates...the first has the potential for a larger amount of hackers...the second allows us to stretch our definition of cheating to no end...this discussion is a good example imo...I mean, the people affected by this didn't actually cheat in earning their trophies as far as I know...I believe we opened this floodgate when we started accepting the removal of gamers for hacked lobbies and such...the big difference in this situation though is that there is no cfw involved (at this point) anywhere in the process...they should not be compared...

 

 

Edited October 16, 2022 by ProfBambam55

[MonaSaxPayne]

for the ppl who think this should be flagged on the basis of "impossible timestamps" being unfair to fastest achievers 

 

how are u ok with ppl deliberately abusing debug menus (which also creates "impossible timestamps") but not ok with this?

[diskdocx]

7 hours ago, AJ_-_808 said:

 

Apparently, the issue can also affect normal games- if there happens to be a trophy popped within 15 minutes of starting up the ps5.

 

If I understand correctly, for people with massive trophy counts, anything earned while the ps5 is still loading their trophy list gets queued until it's done loading, and then pops alongside the next trophy earned, except it pops with the wrong timestamp 

 

2 hours ago, Bumperklever said:

To set the baseline:

1. There is a bug that happens on PS5 consoles which make the trophies appear late and therefore autopops, the bug in the OS is of course sony's fault;

2. This PS5 OS bug is now a well known bug and should be in atleast the circles of the top leaderboard;

3. There is an easy way to prevent this bug to happen by just "warming up the game" before actually earning trophies;            

4. This bug effects any game, so long and EZPZ ones; 

 

So with that out of the way:

- The list still has impossible timestamps, therefore the list is "cheated" this indirectly results in a much faster trophy list;

- Therefore people that or can use this bug can misuse it to cut of lets say 15 minutes out of the game;

- Depending on the list, 15 minutes can be a major time decrease;

 

So in the end:

- I think the end user shouldn't be punished for life due to a bug at Sony's side;

- But I do think there is very easy fix for the bug;

- I don't think the solution should hurt people that likes to speedrun games;

 

For me the best solution is Unlimited flags, but still needs to hide the game.

 

I think the worst solution would be to fully allow this cuz:

- In the top leaderboard actually hacking may actually be a viable way to gain some ranks with even more minimal effort;

- Do note that I can also replace the PS5 OS bug in my post with PS3 online hackers. Allowing it all just screams for a bearput to open;

 

Is this 15 minute time frame purely speculative, or is it really taking that long? I'm not trying to start an argument here, just trying to get information. Like, is this a memory leak type of situation where large profiles take longer and longer to load on start up?

 

I've never had this bug, and don't typically fire up the console and jump into multiple EZPZ spam games, but I'm genuinely curious how consistent and repeatable this bug is. My understanding was that it was quite random and considerably less than 15 minutes in most cases.

 

I have not yet voted, I need more information, but I am leaning towards no flag, no hide, unlimited because this is something that isn't the user's fault, isn't really controllable or consistently exploitable, and at the end of the day I'm not sure that fastest achiever leaderboards for 1-2 minute games are all that relevant anyway.

[Nitro]

I voted for  Unlimited without the needing hide. 

 

In regards to the points made:

1. Nobody cares about the speedrun board for a 30 second game.

2. Yes, it affects normal games too. Sometimes trophies don't pop up when this glitch has happened (happened when I unlocked Roadhog's grappel trophy on overwatch)

3. The answer is to wait 15 minutes before popping a trophy? Why should we have to wait?

4. If a couple of people slip through, so be it. If they are a cheater, they will cheat again

[StacFace92]

On 15/10/2022 at 0:55 PM, visvoer18 said:

 

yeah that doesnt work at least not consisently.

 

and you cnat compare it to hacked lobbies either  because that isnt guaranteed for the big trophy hunters that this will happen IS guaranteed.

also the hacked lobby sucks  but that is only a few games this can happen with every game

 

I find your logic strange. 

 

The issue mainly affecting big trophy hunters is an argument against allowing it. Because big trophy hunters should be more aware of leaderboard rules, potential problems to avoid & already adapt what/how they play to fit. So if they're still doing this a few months from now it's almost certainly on purpose.

 

The issue affecting potentially any game on PS5 is also an argument against allowing it. Because it means the impact on the leaderboards will be much greater with the potential for profiles with 100s of games like this. 

 

And the current hacked lobby situation isn't made OK by only a few games being affected, because it only takes 1 flag to negatively affect your profile. 

[pinkrobot_pb]

So wait a minute... are we 100% sure Sony does not intend on fixing this bug or are there even efforts underway to bring this problem to their attention?

Edited October 16, 2022 by pinkrobot_pb

[AJ_-_808]

2 hours ago, diskdocx said:

 

Is this 15 minute time frame purely speculative, or is it really taking that long? I'm not trying to start an argument here, just trying to get information. Like, is this a memory leak type of situation where large profiles take longer and longer to load on start up?

 

I've never had this bug, and don't typically fire up the console and jump into multiple EZPZ spam games, but I'm genuinely curious how consistent and repeatable this bug is. My understanding was that it was quite random and considerably less than 15 minutes in most cases.

 

Speculative I think. Not sure anyone actually timed it.

Maybe it's just a matter of size if the trophy list, and one simply has to sync to server before they start playing to avoid it?

 

It's hard to determine the scope of these when only a small subset of trophy lists are affected and the biggest part of that subset sticking out are the quick plats 

34 minutes ago, pinkrobot_pb said:

So wait a minute... are we 100% sure Sony does not intend on fixing this bug or are there even efforts underway to bring this problem to their attention?

No, not sure - to both questions 

[Sergen]

I voted for unlimited without having to hide... The leaderboards already lost all integrity when every single day a bunch of 5 minute platinum games are among the most recent game releases. You also don't flag people for Jak II where the whole platinum is an autopop if people intentionally use the debug menu to cheat it. I'd say that with this situation even if people were to exploit it for faster times on their games you could say it is still within the boundaries of the console. I think the only things that should truly be flagged are using external methods that enable the person to earn the trophies without actually performing the requirements of the trophy, such as downloading a save file or using CFW to cheat the game. When it comes to the OS bug, all you need is a PS5, the game and a controller in order to replicate it and that could just be written off as another beneficial glitch trophy hunters take advantage of in games. Sure it won't make trophy hunting all that exciting for people in the future but as I mentioned the state of trophies right now is ruined anyway and people should only truly care about their own trophies because you're not gonna keep up with all these EZPZs and maintain a great rank on the leaderboard as it is. 

[Deadly_Ha_Ha]

Unless I'm misunderstanding something, the debug menu is a baked in feature of games. It's lame as fuck, and is just as stupid looking as autopopping plats cross-gen, but it's not the same as being uncertain whether someone cheated or not due to impossible timestamps. Debug bullshit is exactly possible, these timestamps are NOT possible unless they either cheated or got bugged, and if there's no way to tell then /shrug

[visvoer18]

3 hours ago, StacFace92 said:

 

I find your logic strange. 

 

The issue mainly affecting big trophy hunters is an argument against allowing it. Because big trophy hunters should be more aware of leaderboard rules, potential problems to avoid & already adapt what/how they play to fit. So if they're still doing this a few months from now it's almost certainly on purpose.

so the big trophy hunters should all stop hunting?  thats like saying to a sportman he cant compete anymore because he is too good  it makes no freaking sense at all.

 

realy not only doesnt your oppinion makes sense its also extremely selfish.

Quote

 

The issue affecting potentially any game on PS5 is also an argument against allowing it. Because it means the impact on the leaderboards will be much greater with the potential for profiles with 100s of games like this. 

 

And the current hacked lobby situation isn't made OK by only a few games being affected, because it only takes 1 flag to negatively affect your profile. 

 

and how does this makes sense? so to get to the top you need to hunt a lot but if you do hunt a lot you get kicked from it? the only wya to NOT get kicked is not hunting.

 

and you say my logic makes no sense

 

mine makes perfect sense yours on the other hand  I cnat even comprehend it

 

edit: 1 point I forgot to make but I do wanna mention there is no guarantee sony will fix this its highly doubtfull sony cares  about it

Edited October 16, 2022 by visvoer18

[Ashande]

On 10/15/2022 at 7:37 AM, ProfBambam55 said:

you just said it wasn't a bug then gave a very specific definition of an unforeseeable bug...haha...

 

edit : curiosity side question: I noticed none of the crt voted... @B1rvinedo you know what crt members think of this issue?...I mean, end result is likely you guys dealing with it all, yes?...

 

No, I did not. A bug implies unintended behavior. The way things are happening seems to be precisely as the system was designed to behave. The fact that the designed and desired behavior has potentially negative consequences for a small fraction of users does not make it a bug or a glitch. A glitch would be unlocking trophies you had no way to have done, unlocking trophies in the wrong game, or putting some random timestamp (December 12, 2012 at 12:34 PM or something) instead of a time that makes sense and is coded into the system (IE: the time the queue or backlog of Profile changes is processed, which is what it appears to be doing.)

 

Now, could they have coded it so in addition to “queuing” (or whatever) the Profile changes to be applied, they also scribbled the timestamp that future change was noted and apply that timestamp retroactively? I’m sure they could have. But them not doing that, again, does not make it a bug; it just means the feature lacks the level of precision or detail that a certain percentage of the user base would prefer it to.

 

1 hour ago, visvoer18 said:

so the big trophy hunters should all stop hunting?  thats like saying to a sportman he cant compete anymore because he is too good  it makes no freaking sense at all.

 

realy not only doesnt your oppinion makes sense its also extremely selfish.

 

and how does this makes sense? so to get to the top you need to hunt a lot but if you do hunt a lot you get kicked from it? the only wya to NOT get kicked is not hunting.

 

and you say my logic makes no sense

 

mine makes perfect sense yours on the other hand  I cnat even comprehend it

 

edit: 1 point I forgot to make but I do wanna mention there is no guarantee sony will fix this its highly doubtfull sony cares  about it

 

You’re being obtuse. Whether deliberately or not, I couldn’t say. They didn’t say the top hunters should stop hunting, he said that they should keep abreast of known issues and ways to deal with them. So far, it seems to be that so long as you wait for your Profile to sync fully and properly (something that may be able to be forced by going to the Trophy menu and selecting “sync with server,” then waiting for the operation to finish to eliminate ambiguity, though thusfar it is untested), you’ll be fine. Thinking the top hunters would do research or take appropriate steps doesn’t seem too far beyond the pale; a significant portion of them are already investing that sort of effort, to avoid games with unobtainable, buggy or missing trophies and ferret out the most “bang for your buck” Trophy lists. I don’t see where selfishness comes into thinking a certain amount of personal responsibility or being informed is recommended; can you elaborate on that?

Edited October 16, 2022 by Ashande

[TheRetroManiac]

What a shit bug this is, imagine having to load a game up and leave it running for 15 mins or longer just in hopes that this does not happen to you. On top of that, not everybody has all the time in the world, so having to wait say 15 mins before doing anything is silly. Sony need to get their shit together and fix this, but they do not really care that much about trophies, so it will never be on the list of important things.

 

 

[visvoer18]

1 hour ago, Ashande said:

 

No, I did not. A bug implies unintended behavior. The way things are happening seems to be precisely as the system was designed to behave. The fact that the designed and desired behavior has potentially negative consequences for a small fraction of users does not make it a bug or a glitch. A glitch would be unlocking trophies you had no way to have done, unlocking trophies in the wrong game, or putting some random timestamp (December 12, 2012 at 12:34 PM or something) instead of a time that makes sense and is coded into the system (IE: the time the queue or backlog of Profile changes is processed, which is what it appears to be doing.)

 

Now, could they have coded it so in addition to “queuing” (or whatever) the Profile changes to be applied, they also scribbled the timestamp that future change was noted and apply that timestamp retroactively? I’m sure they could have. But them not doing that, again, does not make it a bug; it just means the feature lacks the level of precision or detail that a certain percentage of the user base would prefer it to.

 

 

You’re being obtuse. Whether deliberately or not, I couldn’t say. They didn’t say the top hunters should stop hunting, he said that they should keep abreast of known issues and ways to deal with them. So far, it seems to be that so long as you wait for your Profile to sync fully and properly (something that may be able to be forced by going to the Trophy menu and selecting “sync with server,” then waiting for the operation to finish to eliminate ambiguity, though thusfar it is untested), you’ll be fine.

and I already explained multiple times that this DOESNT WORK at least not consistent  also he does say that they should stop hunting

 

''Because big trophy hunters should be more aware of leaderboard rules, potential problems to avoid & already adapt what/how they play to fit. So if they're still doing this a few months from now it's almost certainly on purpose.''

 

yet there is no wya to prevent it from happening accept not playing  there is no wya to avoid this

 

so yeah in that sense it is on purpose because they have 2 options

 

keep hunting  and take the risk

stop hunting

 

no other options only those 2

 

 

1 hour ago, Ashande said:

Thinking the top hunters would do research or take appropriate steps doesn’t seem too far beyond the pale; a significant portion of them are already investing that sort of effort, to avoid games with unobtainable, buggy or missing trophies and ferret out the most “bang for your buck” Trophy lists. I don’t see where selfishness comes into thinking a certain amount of personal responsibility or being informed is recommended; can you elaborate on that?

there IS no way to prevent it at least not yet. might never come either. 

 

I called out the cheater removal team multiple times already to explain how to prevent it others did too yet they keep  ignoring it they most likely know there is no way.

 

so unless they find an way to prevent it from happening consistently  things like personal responsibility etc arent relevant when they find an way to prevent it that actualy works it will be different I look at how the situation is as of this moment not at what it MIGHT be in the future

[TheRedMaverick]

18 minutes ago, visvoer18 said:

there IS no way to prevent it at least not yet. might never come either. 

 

I called out the cheater removal team multiple times already to explain how to prevent it others did too yet they keep  ignoring it they most likely know there is no way.

 

so unless they find an way to prevent it from happening consistently  things like personal responsibility etc arent relevant when they find an way to prevent it that actualy works it will be different I look at how the situation is as of this moment not at what it MIGHT be in the future

Do you have a video or something where no matter how long you wait, the issue doesn't happen? In Ikemenzi's video, eventually the trophy list for the affected game loads after waiting:
 

 

That being said, there is no easy visual indicator of whether you are experiencing the glitch or not. You basically have to be extremely vigilant when you load a game and make sure that the trophy list appears either on your general list or on the bottom right-hand corner when you hover over the game in the PS5 Menu while the game is launched before earning any trophies. I can very much see this being something that is impacted by the user's network speed as well so you may be right that at least for some people, it's not just a 10-15 minute wait (if it's utilizing your network upload speed to sync your trophy list etc.)

[visvoer18]

19 minutes ago, TheRedMaverick said:

Do you have a video or something where no matter how long you wait, the issue doesn't happen? In Ikemenzi's video, eventually the trophy list for the affected game loads after waiting:
 

 

That being said, there is no easy visual indicator of whether you are experiencing the glitch or not. You basically have to be extremely vigilant when you load a game and make sure that the trophy list appears either on your general list or on the bottom right-hand corner when you hover over the game in the PS5 Menu while the game is launched before earning any trophies. I can very much see this being something that is impacted by the user's network speed as well so you may be right that at least for some people, it's not just a 10-15 minute wait (if it's utilizing your network upload speed to sync your trophy list etc.)

no I dont have an video I dont own an ps5 myself but i am in good contact with my best friend (richie_rich_nl and the_punisher_nl) the problem is the issue can still happen even when the list is loaded. thats why I said you cant prevent it consisnttly  at least

[KondeBra]

How many ppl were affected by this bug?

[RDT1]

As a sad player of shovelware I had to go unlimited, by the shear number I play I am sure I'll be on the list eventually until Sony patches it.

 

I think having an internal CRT list of easy games that are likely unintentional is a smart move (dont make public) and have a disputes method that someone can prove they have a PS5 with a couple of extras like firmware version and Mac address (obviously not public) as to make it more difficult for dodgey cheaters.

[StacFace92]

4 hours ago, visvoer18 said:

so the big trophy hunters should all stop hunting?  thats like saying to a sportman he cant compete anymore because he is too good  it makes no freaking sense at all.

 

realy not only doesnt your oppinion makes sense its also extremely selfish.

 

and how does this makes sense? so to get to the top you need to hunt a lot but if you do hunt a lot you get kicked from it? the only wya to NOT get kicked is not hunting.

 

and you say my logic makes no sense

 

mine makes perfect sense yours on the other hand  I cnat even comprehend it

 

edit: 1 point I forgot to make but I do wanna mention there is no guarantee sony will fix this its highly doubtfull sony cares  about it

 

2 hours ago, visvoer18 said:

and I already explained multiple times that this DOESNT WORK at least not consistent  also he does say that they should stop hunting

 

''Because big trophy hunters should be more aware of leaderboard rules, potential problems to avoid & already adapt what/how they play to fit. So if they're still doing this a few months from now it's almost certainly on purpose.''

 

yet there is no wya to prevent it from happening accept not playing  there is no wya to avoid this

 

so yeah in that sense it is on purpose because they have 2 options

 

keep hunting  and take the risk

stop hunting

 

no other options only those 2

 

 

there IS no way to prevent it at least not yet. might never come either. 

 

I called out the cheater removal team multiple times already to explain how to prevent it others did too yet they keep  ignoring it they most likely know there is no way.

 

so unless they find an way to prevent it from happening consistently  things like personal responsibility etc arent relevant when they find an way to prevent it that actualy works it will be different I look at how the situation is as of this moment not at what it MIGHT be in the future

 

A few things to address here:

 

1. At no point have I said anyone should stop trophy hunting. The quote you took talks about being aware of issues & adapting playstyles being something many trophy hunters (especially at the top of leaderboards) already do. In this case, they'd be adapting by checking the trophy list has loaded before playing, and waiting for it if it's not.

 

2. You say there's no way to prevent it. Do you know of an instance where someone did wait for the trophy list to load, but then still had this issue anyway? Because everything I've seen about this points to the issue being caused by playing before the trophy list loads, which will be why the OP lists that it is avoidable. If you can provide a video or other evidence that it's not avoidable, that obviously changes everything and you should post that evidence.

 

3. Don't twist what people say just because it doesn't match your opinions. It makes your argument look really weak when you do it, even though there are plenty of good reasons to not flag this. 

 

Edit: just seen your most recent post - can you get one of them to take a video showing them waiting for the list to appear but still having the trophies pop like this? It would massively help your argument. 

Edited October 16, 2022 by StacFace92

[visvoer18]

5 minutes ago, StacFace92 said:

 

 

A few things to address here:

 

1. At no point have I said anyone should stop trophy hunting. The quote you took talks about being aware of issues & adapting playstyles being something many trophy hunters (especially at the top of leaderboards) already do. In this case, they'd be adapting by checking the trophy list has loaded before playing, and waiting for it if it's not.

 

2. You say there's no way to prevent it. Do you know of an instance where someone did wait for the trophy list to load, but then still had this issue anyway? Because everything I've seen about this points to the issue being caused by playing before the trophy list loads, which will be why the OP lists that it is avoidable. If you can provide a video or other evidence that it's not avoidable, that obviously changes everything and you should post that evidence.

 

3. Don't twist what people say just because it doesn't match your opinions. It makes your argument look really weak when you do it, even though there are plenty of good reasons to not flag this. 

1 you did there is no wya to prevent it from happening while hunting the only way to be sure to not have it happen is not hunting  so yeah you did say that

 

2 yes  my best friend who I just named (both his accounts) in my previus post.

 

3 thats what you are doing not me

[Nebnit]

1 hour ago, KondeBra said:

How many ppl were affected by this bug?

 

Enough to make people want to have safeguards should this happen to them one day.