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Should Shovelware Be Worth Zero Points?


Shovelware Zero Points  

601 members have voted

  1. 1. Should All Games Marked As Shovelware Have A Vaule Of Zero Points?

    • Yes
      404
    • No
      189
  2. 2. Alternatives

    • I Voted Yes But Prefer Alt - Rarity Leaderboard
      181
    • I Voted No And Want Alt - Rarity Leaderboard
      86
    • No Alternative
      149
  3. 3. If A Rarity Leaderboard Happened, What Cut Off Percentage?

    • 20%
      68
    • 30%
      13
    • 40%
      14
    • 50%
      87
    • 60%
      23
    • 70%
      182


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3 hours ago, Ashande said:

 

I have to admit to a certain curiosity; would people still flock to these things if they were more expensive? I suspect the answer would probably be “yes.” Given that the price for “trophy trash” has steadily crept up from <$1 to $6.99 in some cases, I imagine they could continue to nudge that price up a dollar at a time until you’re paying the same price you’d pay for whatever AAA title is popular for the moment, and there would still be people slurping them up.

 

I’d love for the experiment to be made, though, so we can get a definitive answer. 

Imagine paying 60$ for a 15minute platinum trophy, i sure as hell wouldnt, these cash grab companies would cease to exist, and that would be amazing! ive stopped with trophy garbage personally but generally speaking, i dont think you would see too many people buying those games

maybe one or two until they are gutted with guilt because they just burned $60 on a pixel, mind as well be an NFT scam

PSN should just do the way of Nintendo and not have trophies or achievements anymore as its now been completely over saturated and watered down, its disguisting, and the few achievements nintendo does have, only you can view them, youre friends and randoms dont see a thing but if you have the game and how long youve played it for

Edited by Property_Damage
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11 minutes ago, MonaSaxPayne said:

 

I just gave u a formula from qualified statisticians that explains why 400 votes is nowhere near accurately representative, and u just disregarded all of that because of what "u think" 1f60f.png

 

its like reading these Facebook posts from high school drop outs explaining why they have more knowledge than trained virologists and coronavirus is a hoax

i don't really think so .  I think that you're counting a lot of users on the site as users who don't use the site anymore.  in which case 400 could be a closer sample size than you think to the  amount needed to be accurate.   Could you link your sample size source?   Wonder what types of polls it's talking about? wonder how old that statement is and what the person who made its credentials are?  

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38 minutes ago, steel6burgh said:

i don't really think so .  I think that you're counting a lot of users on the site as users who don't use the site anymore.  in which case 400 could be a closer sample size than you think to the  amount needed to be accurate.   Could you link your sample size source?   Wonder what types of polls it's talking about? wonder how old that statement is and what the person who made its credentials are?  

That’s not really much. He just used google search, and found the first result  on Tools4dev, here, word for word, comma positions as well.

https://tools4dev.org/resources/how-to-choose-a-sample-size/#:~:text=A good maximum sample size is usually around 10% of,%2C 10% would be 20%2C000.

You can find the author down below. 
 

I can confirm from personal experience  that  getting  an education doesn’t mean  copypasting the first result on Google, so I’m not sure what he’s trying to say regarding the high school dropouts, other than maybe a jab at himself (probably  even ignored  the Wikipedia  article because that “V” was strange to look  at and the entire ordeal was too complex).

 

This whole discussion, regardless, rests in bad faith, there are Countries that don’t care about the percentages of people who voted those in power, there is  the matter that MANY  users are  disillusioned about  the Site not doing anything for many, MANY years, so they won’t vote, or even check out the thread, a majority of those 465k are inactive, so they really shouldn’t count, others are active only on the Site, not on the Forums, so can’t vote, others are Alts, and so on.

You need to know how many people are actually active on the Forums, instead of just keeping to themselves in other sections, like say, Trophy checklists, to demand how much of a percentage/quantity of votes the discussion requires.

Quantity of votes is a shaky argument to tread on, the best you can do, is to check  how many votes other  threads, who aren’t old get (after all this thread has been up for what,  2 days? Even less technically), best be quick, they usually get locked at around this time, though.

Edited by farradono
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17 minutes ago, farradono said:

That’s not really much. He just used google search, and found the first result  on Tools4dev, here, word for word, comma positions as well.

https://tools4dev.org/resources/how-to-choose-a-sample-size/#:~:text=A good maximum sample size is usually around 10% of,%2C 10% would be 20%2C000.

You can find the author down below. 
 

I can confirm from personal experience  that  getting  an education doesn’t mean  copypasting the first result on Google, so I’m not sure what he’s trying to say regarding the high school dropouts, other than maybe a jab at himself (probably  even ignored  the Wikipedia  article because that “V” was strange to look  at and the entire ordeal was too complex).

 

This whole discussion, regardless, rests in bad faith, there are Countries that don’t care about the percentages of people who voted those in power, there is  the matter that MANY  users are  disillusioned about  the Site not doing anything for many, MANY years, so they won’t vote, or even check out the thread, a majority of those 465k are inactive, so they really shouldn’t count, others are active only on the Site, not on the Forums, so can’t vote, others are Alts, and so on.

You need to know how many people are actually active on the Forums, instead of just keeping to themselves in other sections, like say, Trophy checklists, to demand how much of a percentage/quantity of votes the discussion requires.

Quantity of votes is a shaky argument to tread on, the best you can do, is to check  how many votes other  threads, who aren’t old get (after all this thread has been up for what,  2 days? Even less technically), best be quick, they usually get locked at around this time, though.

nice to know.  not a lot of research went into his response.  just pulling a search on google and referencing the 1st thing that popped up.  also I would imagine a small community based poll would be more accurate in general than a large nationwide political poll or something similar where all sorts of demographics, race, income, way of living all come into play.  PSN profiles is a community of people mostly within a similar age range and with similar interests.  probably a smaller margin for error with something like that as well.  Thanks for the information.

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1 hour ago, Property_Damage said:

Imagine paying 60$ for a 15minute platinum trophy

Considering that imported visual novels tend to be full price, there are certainly people who have gone that far in the past. Whether or not they'd still go that far in the deluge of $1-4 trophy apps, that's a bit tougher to say.

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Again here to just comment this: There is so much wrong info posted in last two page about statistical meaningful survey samples , so please refrain from posting anything about that if you don't know how that stuff is calculated, because all you're doing is making a big embarrassment of yourself.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, Otonio_Bruno said:

Again here to just comment this: There is so much wrong info posted in last two page about statistical meaningful survey samples , so please refrain from posting anything about that if you don't know how that stuff is calculated, because all you're doing is making a big embarrassment of yourself.

 

 

I don't think any of us are claiming to know except the one dude who plagiarized a google search.  I'm claiming that common sense tells me for a small amount of active users on  ps profiles for a poll that is a simple for or against something I'm betting 400 votes is a large enough sample size.   I have no statistical data to back it up and i'm not plagiarizing google or wiki or anything just using an educated guess.  Maybe you could tell us what a meaningful survey sample wold be for something like this.  I'm actually very interested to know.  If you know there  is a lot of wrong information here, I'm guessing you must know what is right.

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7 minutes ago, steel6burgh said:

I don't think any of us are claiming to know except the one dude who plagiarized a google search.  I'm claiming that common sense tells me for a small amount of active users on  ps profiles for a poll that is a simple for or against something I'm betting 400 votes is a large enough sample size.   I have no statistical data to back it up and i'm not plagiarizing google or wiki or anything just using an educated guess.  Maybe you could tell us what a meaningful survey sample wold be for something like this.  I'm actually very interested to know.  If you know there  is a lot of wrong information here, I'm guessing you must know what is right.

 

Well, at first you kinda was but it seems you have acknowledged this isn't as simple as one might think.

 

To keep it short: In order to know the minimum sample size for any kind of survey to have any meaning, you need to establish some parameters, such as population size, choose an error margin that is appropriate for the kind of survey you are doing and also determine confidence interval for your statistical results. Then after that do a proper RANDOM survey with the minimum amount sample size calculated before. The poll contained in this thread is not random and the answers given by members are not unique to each person (I.e people may vote twice with different profiles). It's not random because only people interested in the matter itself is voting/giving answers, players of all kinds would need to see this and vote, for it to start being truly random. But if you need a number, given the population of PSNP forums being close to 500k members, a 5% margin of error and 95% Confidence Interval, the minimum sample size would be 384. Going for 3% margin of error and it goes up to 1065 sample size.

 

Again, this doesn't work here because the answers to this poll are not random to begin with.

 

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On 21.10.2022 at 11:05 PM, TrophyChief said:

Where the fuck is this going? It feels like this is a crusade to tear the community apart.

The community is already apart thanks to these 'buy trophies' apps.

 

There are the 'trophy hunters' who plays games and likes to hunt for trophies in them.

Then there's the newer breed, 'trophy buyers', who doesn't really play games, but instead, buys their trophies.

 

Many from the latter group used to be hardcore trophy hunters, that now has to "play" all these apps or lose the rank they fought so hard for for years. And most of them seems to hate it just as much if not more than the rest of us.

 

These apps do nothing good for the community and the hobby. If you think otherwise, i'm guessing you're an addict that won't admit it. If not, i would love to hear arguments for why these apps are a good thing.

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30 minutes ago, Otonio_Bruno said:

 

Well, at first you kinda was but it seems you have acknowledged this isn't as simple as one might think.

 

To keep it short: In order to know the minimum sample size for any kind of survey to have any meaning, you need to establish some parameters, such as population size, choose an error margin that is appropriate for the kind of survey you are doing and also determine confidence interval for your statistical results. Then after that do a proper RANDOM survey with the minimum amount sample size calculated before. The poll contained in this thread is not random and the answers given by members are not unique to each person (I.e people may vote twice with different profiles). It's not random because only people interested in the matter itself is voting/giving answers, players of all kinds would need to see this and vote, for it to start being truly random. But if you need a number, given the population of PSNP forums being close to 500k members, a 5% margin of error and 95% Confidence Interval, the minimum sample size would be 384. Going for 3% margin of error and it goes up to 1065 sample size.

 

Again, this doesn't work here because the answers to this poll are not random to begin with.

 

I'm curious would non-active users be figured into the 500,000?  Probably more than half the site users are long gone.

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For some reason I cannot see the buttons to vote on alternatives but I'll just add my two cents here.

 

I have no problem with 'shovelware' trophies, if Sony allows them to be published then the trophies are valid.

They contribute to your trophy rank, they are counted on the back end.

 

If there is a segment of people that want a leaderboard where they are excluded then that's fine. 

But as a paying client of this website, I would be quite upset if I could no longer track my progress against all registered users as reflected by the PlayStation trophy system.

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13 hours ago, Floorkiller74 said:

 

They have never given the site any opportunity to grow, or shown any care to see it grow. I used to submit trophy flags there all the time, but it would often take them 4-6 weeks to get around to looking at them. When I would ask what is taking so long I was always made to feel like I'm inconveniencing them. I felt like my contributions were a burden, and so I quit contributing. Considering how dead that site is I would think they would appreciate any help they can get. TT has the potential to blow this site out of the water but I feel as they really don't care. TA gets all the love. 

 

I see. That makes sense. I suppose they expected the community to be bigger because of True Achievements. It's a shame, especially since True Achievements is by far the best site when it comes to information. That's usually the first site I check, despite playing all of my games on PlayStation.

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13 hours ago, AkibaKyu said:

 

But as a paying client of this website, I would be quite upset if I could no longer track my progress against all registered users as reflected by the PlayStation trophy system.

 

As a longer-time paying client of this website, I would be quite amused if you could no longer track your ahem.. progress.. 

 

 

Whose alt account are you?

Edited by AJ_-_808
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9 minutes ago, AJ_-_808 said:

 

As a longer-time paying client of this website, I would be quite amused if you could no longer track your ahem.. progress.. 

 

 

Whose alt account ard you?

 

I've had quite a few accounts over time 'Trepie' being my oldest.

Over various accounts I've been a member here for over 10 years.

Not that account age should matter.

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10 hours ago, GUDGER666 said:

i saw lots of new and alt accounts in the recently visited. Most likely people double or triple voting for 0 points. 

 

You can cast shade on any (internet) poll by saying that the results are rigged. This doesn't include just the 0 points option, though, but also, and especially, the "do nothing, keep everything the way it is" votes.

 

People who vote for the 0 points option have for certain no financial interest in ensuring that the spam "games" continue to have a market and continue to sell. The people who cash in on addiction however have every interest in keeping things the way they are. Financial interest is a very strong motivator. Much stronger than disliking something. If I made easy money by releasing these asset swaps, I'd strongly consider creating and maintaining multiple accounts, paying a little for VPN, and investing time to make sure that I'll continue making money.

 

I feel that it's much more likely that a significant number of votes for the "no change" options is from "new and alt accounts" than is the case for the "0 points" votes. That you focus on trying to discredit the "0 points" votes (in various of your posts, not just the one I quoted), but ignore the more likely scenario that it's actually the "no change" votes that are rigged because of strong financial motivation of spam game developers and buyers, raises some questions for me. That, in spite of this, the votes for change outnumber the "do nothing" voters, is noteworthy.

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I think most people know this poll isn't very scientific. The purpose of it is to give staff an understanding of community opinion and feeling on this matter.

 

Ultimately they are the only ones who will determine if there is any vaule to he had from it.

 

Already we've had one mod who effectively said they have no plans on removing any points for shovelware game.

Edited by AMadScotsGuy
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What a doozy of a thread. 

 

I love the new filtering shovelware button for sorting through games. It's still not perfect(I'd really love it if we were given the option to only have one game featured per region. Make looking up "stacks" an additional option for those into that sorta thing. Make the one that appears be the one with the most players/owners.

 

As for the leaderboard, I feel like way too much is being lost in the nonsense argument of "filter all the bad games" only for the opposing side to respond: "there are plenty of bad ultra rare games". I personally think filtering points from platinums with 98% or higher rarity isn't losing anything. Forget about the quality of the games for second. Those games could all be awesome. Those who can enjoy them can continue to do so. If the leaderboard is trying to show at least some partiality towards rarity, filtering out the bottom 2% would take out most of the filler. If for whatever reason, by some miracle, Marvel's Spider-Man platinum became 98% common since people love platinuming that game - I'd be cool with it being filtered from my stats. It's so damn common that I don't think anything is lost given how universal across the board it's completed. 

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12 hours ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

I think most people know this poll isn't very scientific. The purpose of it is to give staff an understanding of community opinion and feeling on this matter.

There's  454 votes and the community is 400k++ members. I don't think this will reflect the community opinion at all. It just reflect what the vocal minority think.

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On 10/21/2022 at 11:45 AM, Letenko said:

Thirdly, the argument that changing this will somehow lead to more negatívne changes and rules into the future is a slippery slope argument. If anything, I'd argue it has been proven to go the other way. Ratalaika started publishing games with easy trophies, no stance was taken. They started pushing out more stacks of said games, no stance was take. Literal games for trophies started being published , no stanice was taken. These games for trophies got multiple stacks and here we are.


People did take a stance against Ratalaika because they were the first to release multiple stacks while only being required to finish a small portion of the actual games for the platinum. 
 

This being said, I still refuse to be in the same camp as arrogant pricks on YouTube like KingSuperOne or CMH777 (aka Carlohas) who were both clout chasing in a time when games still had to have some sort of standard to get onto the PS Store. That’s mostly in the past, as neither person has really done much these past few years, but it just goes to show there have been gatekeepers and elitists for a long time in the trophy hunting community. 
 

Today however, the shovelware has gotten out of hand on the PS Store, to the point where even non trophy hunters are seeing the problem. The shovelware tab is far from perfect, so hopefully more work will be done so it will filter out more games on this website. 
 

On 10/21/2022 at 11:45 AM, Letenko said:

The whole reason I am against these games is that I miss when the platinum count meant something and while I'm fully aware that even if everything stops right now, it still won't be like was before due to the amount of these "games" out there already. It will however stop things before they could get even worse... no idea how they could get worse than right now, but my pointstands. I'm just glad that people who I respect and have profiles they worked for did not give in to these games for the most part.


That hasn’t meant much since the PS3/early PS4 era. The PS3 games leaderboard is the only one that holds merit to me, but even then there’s a hoard of cheaters dominating the top 100 positions so it’s not worth wasting the effort to even try. 

Edited by AJ_Radio
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1 hour ago, Nieird said:

 

There's  454 votes and the community is 400k++ members. I don't think this will reflect the community opinion at all. It just reflect what the vocal minority think.

 

I think it reflects the more common PSNP forum users. When you look back at how old the site is, a lot of the users are either main users who left the site years ago or people who created an account for a dispute thread

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I haven't made up my mind yet on this poll.  I'm on the fence.


For better or worse, these games are now part of the PlayStation's game history and trophy system.

However, this site is a third party and is not beholden to reflect or reconcile with Sony's trophy point system or modern/current trend(s) in its game catalog.

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