Should Shovelware Be Worth Zero Points?

[DeepEyes7 1,837]

39 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

Yet every approach for a rarity LB, in my opinion, is flawed and unfair (subject to manipulation) and will open the floodgates for further harassment, as seen in threads about that topic. 

Forcing a rule for shovelware being worth 0 points is a worse idea, but that doesnt mean a rarity board is a solution, but a lot of threads are used to push a certain agenda.

 

You just mix up the leaderboard for a while, but there will be soon a new meta with less games, and those who do care about leaderboards will adapt to that.  

 

And since people argue with feelings, will a rarity leaderboard be that much of a great idea if good games (again, what people commonly agree as good games) are cancelled out or de-valued because the trophies are achievable for everyone (Ghost of Tsushima for example)?

 

I rather think some people realize they will not advance in the leaderboard because of the current meta and try to change that by taking something away from others. This very thread started with advocating the idea of giving shovelware 0 points, with a huge grey line what defines a game as shuffleware. I think this is unfair and makes a leaderboard shallow.

 

And multiple leaderboards? Right now the choice of games a user picks can be used against them. Imagine one person is in the top 1000 in the leaderboard but some 20000 in the rarity leaderboard. Fingers will be pointed, names will be given.

 

 

In first place, not all LBs have to appeal for everyone, I could say that it is very difficult to have a low rarity average and at the same time be at the top of the main leadeboard, the only way to do that is getting ALL the trophies, but if you start to play stacks of jumping games you wont advance on a rarity LB but surely will get something for the main LB. It's very farfetched to expect that playing ezpz games all day should get you at the top of all the LB in existence.

 

The problem is that the actual MAIN LB only appeal for one type of people, the new way of doing things in the MAIN LB doesn't appeal for everyone, you like it? Good for you, but there is a lot of people who doesn't and they just want another LB where they can compete again (name the rarity LB), maybe they will still be at 250.000th place, but if they finish a normal game MAYBE they will be at 249.999th, but in the actual LB you finish game and you are even lower in the rank.

 

The excuse of the GREAT games that would be devalued with a rarity LB is lame, the people on the top rank of the actual LB wont play a good and award winner game if the trophy list is long to finish and you know that, because in the same time they could plat 100 ezpz games.

5 minutes ago, bosstristan said:

 

Excactly!

With a nice marker in addition to it, like the dreadful H :

 

 

Why you love so much to brand people? Thats weird.

[bosstristan 539]

Like for instance :

Just now, DeepEyes7 said:

 

In first place, not all LBs have to appeal for everyone, I could say that it is very difficult to have a low rarity average and at the same time be at the top of the main leadeboard, the only way to do that is getting ALL the trophies, but if you start to play stacks of jumping games you wont advance on a rarity LB but surely will get something for the main LB. It's very farfetched to expect that playing ezpz games all day should get you at the top of all the LB in existence.

 

The problem is that the actual MAIN LB only appeal for one type of people, the new way of doing things in the MAIN LB doesn't appeal for everyone, you like it? Good for you, but there is a lot of people who doesn't and they just want another LB where they can compete again (name the rarity LB), maybe they will still be at 250.000th place, but if they finish a normal game MAYBE they will be at 249.999th, but in the actual LB you finish game and you are even lower in the rank.

 

The excuse of the GREAT games that would be devalued with a rarity LB is lame, the people on the top rank of the actual LB wont play a good and award winner game if the trophy list is long to finish and you know that, because in the same time they could plat 100 ezpz games.

 

Why you love so much to brand people? Thats weird.

 

Well, it's a logical addition to the H and the golden P.

It adds a little bit about what kind of player you are.

[farradono 62]

1 hour ago, Thrillhelm said:

I start to think people hold a grudge against the top leaderboard.

 

Well numbers dont lie I guess. For the purpose of staying on top of the leaderboard, playing quick games for little money seems like the thing to do. I'd say its rather desilusional to tell people how to spend their time and money, especially when forcing a narrative which contains a competition that fits one's own agenda.

 

You see that resource management didnt start with ratalaika games or the current shovelware games, just have to go back to the late PS3 and Vita era with Visual novels. Someone managed to get his hands on a copy, and people went further to create forums in which these games (we're talking about physical copies) were shared or traded. That gave them an edge to competitors. And some of them are still in the top 100. But like today someone had to point fingers and argues with feelings or strawman's argument. Always will be someone pissed.

 

 

Yet every approach for a rarity LB, in my opinion, is flawed and unfair (subject to manipulation) and will open the floodgates for further harassment, as seen in threads about that topic. 

Forcing a rule for shovelware being worth 0 points is a worse idea, but that doesnt mean a rarity board is a solution, but a lot of threads are used to push a certain agenda.

 

You just mix up the leaderboard for a while, but there will be soon a new meta with less games, and those who do care about leaderboards will adapt to that.  

 

And since people argue with feelings, will a rarity leaderboard be that much of a great idea if good games (again, what people commonly agree as good games) are cancelled out or de-valued because the trophies are achievable for everyone (Ghost of Tsushima for example)?

 

I rather think some people realize they will not advance in the leaderboard because of the current meta and try to change that by taking something away from others. This very thread started with advocating the idea of giving shovelware 0 points, with a huge grey line what defines a game as shuffleware. I think this is unfair and makes a leaderboard shallow.

 

And multiple leaderboards? Right now the choice of games a user picks can be used against them. Imagine one person is in the top 1000 in the leaderboard but some 20000 in the rarity leaderboard. Fingers will be pointed, names will be given.

Because it still gets you far, just not at the top and especially not if you started one or two years ago. Some names in the top 10 for example are there for years for a reason.

 

Following your logic, then the solution is only one. Remove all types of Leaderboards altogether, and to distinguish cheaters, add a big “C” like the letter H  you’ll find when a profile hides games.

There you go, no manipulations or  metagames will be possible, no opportunities  to belittle others, whether because they have trash on their profiles, or, because they don’t have your laudable “skills” in time and resources management as your victimhood personality unwisely let that slip out earlier.

I’d be fine for that, no problem, I would, ideally,  like a Leaderboard where actual “time and resource managements” are put to the test, and ironically enough, all the ideas proposed can, at the very least, be  considered  better than the current one.

If your problem is with exploits and metagames,  that’s human nature, and all solutions throughout human history were made to reduce a negative effect, as downright removing it was impossible, hence the creation of the ephemeral term “utopia”.  Currently you are visiting the “Forums” of PSNProfiles, that’s  Latin, it means a place where people come to discuss, keyword discuss, there never was a discussion that favoured every single element participating in it, you’re bound to find people pissed, even without a Leaderboard, you’d have to magically stop people from being able to talk, and lower their intelligence considerably for good measure.

Would you like to argue with facts, instead of feelings? I trust that your “facts” aren’t  just some shit you find on Google said by a nobody like earlier.

First and foremost, you’ve yet to prove why any of these alternatives woild be the same or worse than the current situation. You alluded to PSVR having some  easy URs that people can abuse, that might be true, not interested to buy  a VR set just to collect URs, or UR themselves, but how many of these  easy VRs with URs are there, huh? You’re bound to finish those Borderlands 2 and Skyrim games, which, while  by no means Crypt of the Necrodancer, you’re still bound to spend a lot of hours there with some difficulty spikes for good measure.

What about when those rarities will fall off, due to the rumors that those games are easy? Take a look at how Hollow Knight’s rarity pummelled after the invincibility glitch was discovered, you conveniently ignore how a rarity Leaderboard would continuously change, unlike a normal one, the only exploit I could think of, was already fixed by Sly, when he ignored some folks to change the rarity of DLCs to consider total base game owners. Why do you ignore this competitive aspect instead of always focusing on people  acting “elitist” including you, who just let your mask slip, oh, I’m terribly sorry for not giving you your due, o lord! Speaking of which, you’re someone closing in  on the top 100, and spend  most of your day posting on PSNP whenever someone says anything negative about its current situation, you’re the living proof that the current Leaderboard doesn’t reward time  management in the slightest, nor resource management because at least you’d have to go through several loops, and spend much more money for those dumb visual novels in the past. Here’s a pure distilled fact, all traces of feelings removed: the current Leaderboard rewards who donates more money to  people still living with their mother preying on an addiction, and guess what? None of these people are Sly, nor the mods that have to take care of the Leaderboard due to cheating or some other shit, the people doing the work on PSNP don’t see a single cent on this sad excuse of a Metagame.

Since you like to talk about “facts and feelings”, do you honestly believe that keeping the Leaderboard like this, is a situation born of LOGIC, rather than avoiding breaking the FEELINGS  of people such as yourself? Even PSNP’s only method of revenue, consists on a one time only payment ( a shite one who ignores my bank, but that’s not important now), where even if you were to leave for having  a Leaderboard, with, shall we say a different time and resource management than the one you’re used to, it wouldn’t matter, because you already got squeezed.

Oh, and I’m sorry, did I miss Ghost of Tsushima’s plat being at 80+% or something? It also has the raids, so, horrible example.

[janzor88 628]

I and 99% of the people here don't care about our position on the leaderboard. 

What we care about is the integrity of the leaderboard.

 

Trophies have no value for themselves. 

What gives them value is a community where we have some fixed rules which are agreed upon by the majority.

No CFW, cheating etc. is something that Sony doesn't care about, but what helps add integrity to this leaderboard.

 

The same thing can be said about shovelware. 

They add nothing of value to the leaderboard, as their only function is a predatory business model of selling trophies without having to play games.

The bare minimum requirement should be that you actually have to play games to gain points.

Holding a button for 1 minute is neither playing a game, or can be called a game.

It is just an app which transfers you trophies.

 

Which leads me to my point, that shovelware should count as 0 points.

The ironic part is that the people arguing that the leaderboard doesn't matter, are the same people non-stop defending shovelware and arguing that they indeed should give points as they don't want to drop ranks.

So suddenly leaderboard matters for you, or what?

Losing 300 shovelware plats for example would only amount to ~5 hours or holding a button, so did you really lose much?

 

If you want to see a broken achievement system, then just look at Steam.

Some games have +10.000 trophies and there are numerous apps for just handing out achievement like these hold "X" for a minute games.

Now imagine Sony lifting their maximum points in games temporarily. 

Would you find it acceptable if a new Jumping Taco game gave 100.000 points suddenly?

There is 0 integrity at Steams achievement system, which is not what we should strive for.

 

Let's clean out this trash once and for all, and get rid of these scummy "developers".

[bosstristan 539]

5 minutes ago, janzor88 said:

I and 99% of the people here don't care about our position on the leaderboard. 

What we care about is the integrity of the leaderboard.

 

Trophies have no value for themselves. 

What gives them value is a community where we have some fixed rules which are agreed upon by the majority.

No CFW, cheating etc. is something that Sony doesn't care about, but what helps add integrity to this leaderboard.

 

The same thing can be said about shovelware. 

They add nothing of value to the leaderboard, as their only function is a predatory business model of selling trophies without having to play games.

The bare minimum requirement should be that you actually have to play games to gain points.

Holding a button for 1 minute is neither playing a game, or can be called a game.

It is just an app which transfers you trophies.

 

Which leads me to my point, that shovelware should count as 0 points.

The ironic part is that the people arguing that the leaderboard doesn't matter, are the same people non-stop defending shovelware and arguing that they indeed should give points as they don't want to drop ranks.

So suddenly leaderboard matters for you, or what?

Losing 300 shovelware plats for example would only amount to ~5 hours or holding a button, so did you really lose much?

 

If you want to see a broken achievement system, then just look at Steam.

Some games have +10.000 trophies and there are numerous apps for just handing out achievement like these hold "X" for a minute games.

Now imagine Sony lifting their maximum points in games temporarily. 

Would you find it acceptable if a new Jumping Taco game gave 100.000 points suddenly?

There is 0 integrity at Steams achievement system, which is not what we should strive for.

 

Let's clean out this trash once and for all, and get rid of these scummy "developers".

 

You're absolutely right.

[Darling Baphomet 3,862]

5 hours ago, Thrillhelm said:

If you have chosen not to buy certain games thats ok, but dont force people who bought those game to go out of the competition by demanding 0 points for those games.

 

Trophy hunting was and is a matter of resource management, includes time, money, and access to games. If you have enough money you can buy the games you need, if you have time to play those games then you get more trophies, if you have multiple accounts or are part of a group that shares physical copies (visual novels for example) then you have the edge.

 

Skill is also part of trophy hunting, no doubt. But in order to get up the ranks you need resource management.

 

Pressing X a few dozen times is not resource management, my brother in christ.

 

You decided to take a pay to win approach to trophy hunting because you didn't want to be bothered to do well legitimately. Did you really think you'd be allowed to cheat your way to the top forever?

 

54 minutes ago, coldspectre said:

As soon as trophies are deemed 'shovelware' and are worth '0 points' people will migrate to the websites without these policies.

 

Good.

Edited October 25, 2022 by Darling Baphomet

[Letenko 773]

3 hours ago, Mellenthin said:

 

Not really. Both are equally disgusting - 0% and shovelware that is.😉

"hOw DaRe YoU pErSoNaLly AtTaCk Me LiKe ThIs!"

 

Seriously though. As someone who has a ton of 0%, I'm just too lazy to create a list of all my games, so I just put them on my profile. This way I don't buy duplicates of games. I still opt in to show 0%, even with how terrible it looks.

[craig_obviously 508]

23 minutes ago, bosstristan said:

 

Excactly!

With a nice marker in addition to it, like the dreadful H :

 

 

the dreadful H... ok bud.. this is exactly why all this is a bad idea, I don't agree with shovelware either but it's the right of anyone to play whatever they want.

 

The problem isn't shovel ware or people's accounts it's YOUR perception of it...like the H.. you see the H or your dream S and you feel you have the right to look down on others for it... and you have a right to...but you have to realize that most of us are only interested in OUR accounts and really couldn't give a toss what you think

 

[TheBusToYoker 445]

1 minute ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

Pressing X a few dozen times is not resource management, my brother in christ.

 

You decided to take a pay to win approach to trophy hunting because you didn't want to be bothered to do well legitimately. Did you really think you'd be allowed to cheat your way to the top forever?

 

 

Good.

 

In fairness these games are legally sold on Sony's store. I don't like the idea of calling people who engage heavily with shovelware cheaters. Bit strong.

[Thrillhelm 724]

21 minutes ago, farradono said:

Following your logic, then the solution is only one. Remove all types of Leaderboards altogether, and to distinguish cheaters, add a big “C” like the letter H  you’ll find when a profile hides games.

There you go, no manipulations or  metagames will be possible, no opportunities  to belittle others, whether because they have trash on their profiles, or, because they don’t have your laudable “skills” in time and resources management as your victimhood personality unwisely let that slip out earlier.

I’d be fine for that, no problem, I would, ideally,  like a Leaderboard where actual “time and resource managements” are put to the test, and ironically enough, all the ideas proposed can, at the very least, be  considered  better than the current one.

If your problem is with exploits and metagames,  that’s human nature, and all solutions throughout human history were made to reduce a negative effect, as downright removing it was impossible, hence the creation of the ephemeral term “utopia”.  Currently you are visiting the “Forums” of PSNProfiles, that’s  Latin, it means a place where people come to discuss, keyword discuss, there never was a discussion that favoured every single element participating in it, you’re bound to find people pissed, even without a Leaderboard, you’d have to magically stop people from being able to talk, and lower their intelligence considerably for good measure.

Would you like to argue with facts, instead of feelings? I trust that your “facts” aren’t  just some shit you find on Google said by a nobody like earlier.

First and foremost, you’ve yet to prove why any of these alternatives woild be the same or worse than the current situation. You alluded to PSVR having some  easy URs that people can abuse, that might be true, not interested to buy  a VR set just to collect URs, or UR themselves, but how many of these  easy VRs with URs are there, huh? You’re bound to finish those Borderlands 2 and Skyrim games, which, while  by no means Crypt of the Necrodancer, you’re still bound to spend a lot of hours there with some difficulty spikes for good measure.

What about when those rarities will fall off, due to the rumors that those games are easy? Take a look at how Hollow Knight’s rarity pummelled after the invincibility glitch was discovered, you conveniently ignore how a rarity Leaderboard would continuously change, unlike a normal one, the only exploit I could think of, was already fixed by Sly, when he ignored some folks to change the rarity of DLCs to consider total base game owners. Why do you ignore this competitive aspect instead of always focusing on people  acting “elitist” including you, who just let your mask slip, oh, I’m terribly sorry for not giving you your due, o lord! Speaking of which, you’re someone closing in  on the top 100, and spend  most of your day posting on PSNP whenever someone says anything negative about its current situation, you’re the living proof that the current Leaderboard doesn’t reward time  management in the slightest, nor resource management because at least you’d have to go through several loops, and spend much more money for those dumb visual novels in the past. Here’s a pure distilled fact, all traces of feelings removed: the current Leaderboard rewards who donates more money to  people still living with their mother preying on an addiction, and guess what? None of these people are Sly, nor the mods that have to take care of the Leaderboard due to cheating or some other shit, the people doing the work on PSNP don’t see a single cent on this sad excuse of a Metagame.

Since you like to talk about “facts and feelings”, do you honestly believe that keeping the Leaderboard like this, is a situation born of LOGIC, rather than avoiding breaking the FEELINGS  of people such as yourself? Even PSNP’s only method of revenue, consists on a one time only payment ( a shite one who ignores my bank, but that’s not important now), where even if you were to leave for having  a Leaderboard, with, shall we say a different time and resource management than the one you’re used to, it wouldn’t matter, because you already got squeezed.

Oh, and I’m sorry, did I miss Ghost of Tsushima’s plat being at 80+% or something? It also has the raids, so, horrible example.

 

Having no leaderboard for anyone is not the situation here that's going to happen anytime soon, so that's off. And I'm taking part in the leaderboard, me leaving because the meta is not my cup of tea is also not going to happen anytime soon. 

 

Did I mention PSVR in this thread? Remind me, please. Anyways, as I wrote before, a rarity leaderboard has a different meta, and I am convinced ultra-rares make the difference. As this forum provides at least one thread about easy URs, despite the small figure it is possible to achieve those with rather minimal effort. This can and will be exploited. You can also create multiple PSN accounts to lower the overall % of a game, which for example happened as a side effect in Breakthrough gamings online bowling game, currently at 40s something %.

Means it is possible to push trophies down their percentage. It doesnt even need to happen on purpose, maybe it happens during boosting with multiple consoles on a second account. 

 

As for Ghost of Tsushima, the platinum and the DLC will not have much of an impact on a rarity leaderboard with that percentage. That's the new meta there. 

 

I am sorry I upset you so much that you had to use ad hominem in this discussion.

 

 

Edited October 25, 2022 by Thrillhelm

[TheBusToYoker 445]

 Here we go again. Let's chill.

 

Breath in through the mouth, out through the anus...

 

[KimBongUn420 977]

If saying that "moving up the ranks requires resource management" isn't the most damning indictment of how shovelware has destroyed the leaderboards, I don't know what is.  

 

The only time I want to deal with "resource management" in gaming is when I'm either playing World of Warcraft or screaming into the void because my toon ran out of ki in Nioh.

[Thrillhelm 724]

6 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

 

Pressing X a few dozen times is not resource management, my brother in christ.

 

You decided to take a pay to win approach to trophy hunting because you didn't want to be bothered to do well legitimately. Did you really think you'd be allowed to cheat your way to the top forever?

 

 

It's not cheating. Any more direct attacks and framing? I do not support such arrogant and elitist thinking. Everyone can buy these games, you have chosen not to but those who do are cheaters? 

 

 I already wrote in the thread that while I am against the removal of shovelware I'd still do fair with what you would call 'legitimate' games.

 

[Ashande 774]

@bosstristan You’ve really got a thing with wanting to ban or brand anyone who does something you disagree with. It’s honestly a little disturbing. I’m not in favor of removing the points (unless there is a complete overhaul to the way the Leaderboard is calculated and those new rules are stated clearly, objectively and immutably, or a second Leaderboard is implemented), but if those in charge of the site decide that’s what they’re gonna do, I kinda feel like that’s enough… punishment, I guess? Not really the word I’d use, but close enough. No need to make them wear a (quite literal, given your mockup design) Scarlet Letter. That’s before you get into the situation that will (almost inevitably) occur when something buried in your backlog is deemed “unworthy” by the masses. You can argue “slippery slope fallacy” all day, but I note this topic started as “should this specific game series be considered zero value,” and now has a poll for what rarity level “counts,” people debating the virtues or vices of whatever they consider “easy plats” and people arguing for literally branding anyone who has played a game that falls into whatever category is eventually determined to be undesirable. Is it still a slippery slope if you’re watching it happen right in front of you? But I digress. If this comes to pass, I hope you enjoy your brand, whatever form it may take, and I had best not see you make a single post complaining about it.

[audiopile 754]

can i have my money back? stop whining people and enjoy the games you are playing.

[HusKy 7,335]

13 minutes ago, Letenko said:

I'm just too lazy to create a list of all my games

 

You are telling me it's faster to start games than add them to PSNP+ game list?!

[Thrillhelm 724]

3 minutes ago, KimBongUn420 said:

If saying that "moving up the ranks requires resource management" isn't the most damning indictment of how shovelware has destroyed the leaderboards, I don't know what is.  

 

The only time I want to deal with "resource management" in gaming is when I'm either playing World of Warcraft or screaming into the void because my toon ran out of ki in Nioh.

 

In lack of a better term I picked resource management, and I explained it, as well as its something done for years now (PS3 era and onward).

Have fun with the games.

[bosstristan 539]

Just now, craig_obviously said:

 

the dreadful H... ok bud.. this is exactly why all this is a bad idea, I don't agree with shovelware either but it's the right of anyone to play whatever they want.

 

The problem isn't shovel ware or people's accounts it's YOUR perception of it...like the H.. you see the H or your dream S and you feel you have the right to look down on others for it... and you have a right to...but you have to realize that most of us are only interested in OUR accounts and really couldn't give a toss what you think

 

 

Quote

really couldn't give a toss what you think

Then we agree! This feature would be a nice addition for those who seek it/deem it useful, and people who don't care...well...don't care!

[Letenko 773]

1 minute ago, HusKy said:

 

You are telling me it's faster to start games than add them to PSNP+ game list?!

Touché. I'm just too deep in to stop. 😅 I used game lists that to keep track of things I do want buy and online trophies. Way too many...

[NathanielJohn 3,556]

I wish I could give a reasonable vote to this poll, but the poll option for the rarity leaderboard is:

 

Quote

3. If A Rarity Leaderboard Happened, What Cut Off Percentage?

 

This assumes that the way a Rarity Leaderboard should be done is via a cut-off, which I strongly disagree with. No matter what cut-off you pick, there will be edge cases where it sucks; a shovelware game that has a weirdly low rarity % or a "legit" game that has a weirdly high rarity %. And specific cutoffs are never future-proof, and they just lead to people focusing on games whose rarity is just below the arbitrary cut-off.

 

So why use a cut-off at all? Literally every other trophy site with a leaderboard (TT, Exophase, PSN100, PSNTL) uses a smooth formula to compute points, not a cut-off. Very rare trophies get far more points than very common trophies, but it's a smooth curve. Do that.

[Sinthoras_96 875]

On 21.10.2022 at 2:24 PM, Stanislav669 said:

Good or bad its sony playstation system trophies/points. Its unprofessional to change something in psnprofiles, guys you cant change what is the real to waht suits better for you. so i can grab 10 leafs and i started to think are 10 dollars? are you kidding me?

So following your logic, this site here should also give a shit about hacked trophies like sony does? The top ranks of the leaderboards would be full of cheaters and hackers, if the people here wouldnt be so unprofessional and change that 😉

[HusKy 7,335]

1 minute ago, NathanielJohn said:

So why use a cut-off at all? Literally every other trophy site with a leaderboard (TT, Exophase, PSN100, PSNTL) uses a smooth formula to compute points, not a cut-off. Very rare trophies get far more points than very common trophies, but it's a smooth curve. Do that.

 

That makes at least 2 of us. I don't understand the cut-off idea either.

[Boorish 471]

4 minutes ago, HusKy said:

That makes at least 2 of us. I don't understand the cut-off idea either.

The points could be inversely proportional to rarity where a 99% rarity could be worth 1 point and 1% be 99 points. We could have a min-max for points and maybe multiply them with a fraction to normalize it. That would mean recomputing points everyday for all players so will probably require a lot of development and optimization. Not sure if it's worth it in the end because I do believe that at the end of the day, the nature of leaderboards will always be unfair. Some games will be easier than others and may even have rarer trophies. Hell, the souls games have like 30% rarity. Rarity may be a result of popularity, tedium, or difficulty. You can't really compare them.

[Sendai-Horatio 718]

Would the crackdown on easy platinum games compromise people's milestones?

[dannyswfc9 1,463]

On 10/21/2022 at 1:30 PM, Sikutai said:

I agree, just games under 20 % Rarity should count, everything above is Shovelware. Autopops, Stacks, Story Games without Fighting and Visual Novels shouldn't count either.

That mark is far too low for anything higher to be counted as shovelware. Especially on a trophy hunting site when the percentage will always be far higher than psn.

 

Theres some very respectable plats that are much higher than that

Edited October 25, 2022 by dannyswfc9