Should Shovelware Be Worth Zero Points?

[mrmivo]

2 minutes ago, janpham said:

People move on to other trophy websites.

 

All of which seem to have more than the standard leaderboard, and many of these alternate leaderboards do not treat shovelware the same as proper games. So why do people advocate for changes here instead of going to those other web sites? Because PSNP has the most active community, some extra features, a good layout, and a competent and active cheater removal team.

[Thrillhelm]

2 minutes ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

Well yes, but that requires an investment of time, effort and requisite skill to obtain those trophies.

 

It's not the same as buying 200 shovelware games and having 200 plats in very little time with no effort or skill involved. 

 

I don't look at a users profile on the leaderboard and have any respect for that. All I see is just stacks upon stacks of shovelware. If that makes them happy, fair enough. Doesn't however make for happy picture for myself 

 

If I view someone who has a list full of actual games with minimal shovelware. That I can appreciate and respect, and a much better visual.

But isn't that your personal problem then? 

 

Also missing the point in the quote that these 200 platinums do not come from shovelware but regular games (the ones you can respect). What it means is e.g. if the games declared as shovelware are taken away from my profiles there's still 1000s of other games there which would still outmatch yours.

 

[Ashande]

6 minutes ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

I mean people who buy a lot of shovelware would never try to maintain the status quo too maintain their favourable position on the leaderboards.

 

I’m not sure what you’re getting at, here, but the way it’s phrased and what you bolded carries a certain vibe of accusation. If that’s not what you intended, then mea culpa. Of course plat stackers are going to tug things in their direction - human nature is always to try to sway things to their side or favor, whatever the conditions may be - but as it is currently designed and what it states it is measuring - the score value of someone’s pile of trophies, nothing else - says, like them or not, care about them or not, they should be included… and excluding them is opening a door to dangerous precedent that could and would be pushed to a breaking point by certain types of people.

 

If you want my personal take, I’d nuke the shovelware (which in my book consists of the Pay4Plat stuff like Jumping <x>, <x> Jump and Stroke the <x>) from orbit, and so far as Leaderboard rank - my own, which is the only one I can speak about with any authority - you can insert random gibberish there and it’ll mean the same to me. Hell, devalue every trophy I have, whether it be “Shining Idol” from Sakura Succubus or “Dead God” from Binding of Isaac, and I won’t particularly care. What I am concerned about is tweaking definitions selectively, envelope pushers who will almost inevitably twist it further, and manipulation of a data set to rig the result.

 

1 minute ago, janpham said:

There is a one&only official leaderboard = The Sony Trophy Leaderboard. You can see your trophy level by starting your Playstation console or Playstation App. Nothing else matters. 

 

You want to go the unofficial direction? Do it. But then this website is worth nothing in the end. People move on to other trophy websites.

 

Other trophy websites that… generally also have their own algorithms for calculating rank and score? Of the sites I’m aware of, PSNP is the only one with an “unmodified” Leaderboard based solely on the stats provided by the base trophy system at present. If there are others, I’d like to know.

[VigilantCrow]

I'll say disagree until there are established definitions of what a shovelware game is, how we're going to distinguish between stoke the animal and clickers in general, and what safeguards are going to be in place to stop the usual whiners from expanding the definition.

[TheBusToYoker]

3 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

But isn't that your personal problem then? 

 

Also missing the point in the quote that these 200 platinums do not come from shovelware but regular games (the ones you can respect). What it means is e.g. if the games declared as shovelware are taken away from my profiles there's still 1000s of other games there which would still outmatch yours.

 

 

I have a personal problem with the visual of a profile that has stacks of shovelware? Yes...and?

 

Ok, you've got 1000s of more games. I'm delighted for you. What do you mean by outmatch exactly?

 

 

[GOOD_NITE118]

I like this idea but at least fix rarity leaderboard first cuz what's the point of hunting Ultra Rares trophy ?‍♀️

[Crispy_Oglop]

 

18 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

The people in charge decided to go with Sony's idea and yet still we debate how it should be changed so I guess its only carved in stone when some people get what they want instead of the same thing everyone gets.

 

I feel like i'm having a conversation with a bot here. PSNP is a community site that exists separately from Sony. It's not official. It exists and thrives based on the input and engagement of its community, along with their suggestions and input. The decisions Sony makes/implements and those that PSNP makes/implements are technically not mutually exclusive beyond basic metrics and updates. Not sure why you are connecting the two in the way that you are. Just because Sony adds/implements/changes something, does not automatically cancel out the option for this third party site to debate or talk about it?

 

Where are you getting that 'the people in charge' made a decision around this? Having trouble following you here. I don't know how the site is run, but I know it's not a huge organisation with offices etc. I'm not even sure if the moderators could be considered salaried employees.

 

18 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

You say games can be up for debate. There are visual novels where from installment to platinum it takes less than 20 button presses and less than 10 minutes. What's the difference in gameplay value of such a novel and a shovelware game? Or does it get a pass because it's botj more expensive and harder to get a copy?

 

Why are you trying to drag this down into semantics again? Just relax. The whole point of having some form of moderation over cases which aren't clear cut is to address that. Not to leap into a giant debate right now.

 

Clear cut examples are clear cut - it's pretty obvious. I don't see how you can't mentally apply that logic to something like Stroke the Dog, The Pig D or any number of the vast amount of these titles. I have already mentioned a system set up to fairly consider these and whether less clear cut games should receive points or not. I'm gonna say it one last time - if you can't differentiate between really, truly clear cut shovelware and stuff which is borderline, that's a 'you' problem. And you'd effectively be one of the key reasons why that system I just mentioned would be a necessary part of the process.

 

Edited October 21, 2022 by Crispy_Oglop

[Thrillhelm]

Just now, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

I have a personal problem with the visual of a profile that has stacks of shovelware? Yes...and?

 

Ok, you've got 1000s of more games. I'm delighted for you. What do you mean by outmatch exactly?

 

 

It means despite the unfair disadvantage of shovelware pointd being taken away we'd never meet on the leaderboard anytime soon. People want to see the shovelware alone yet they forget there is more than that.

 

Just to proof my point I'd vote yes so some people can finally leave five digit rank land until the leaderboard sorts itself again. Give one year after a shovelware purge and the top 500 will almost be the same people as now, my opinion. Perhaps I even gain a position or two.

[BlindMango]

Eh I'm thinking probably keep the points from all games for the regular/points leaderboard, then just introduce a rarity leaderboard where the shovelware isn't counted or counted to an insanely small percent it's worth virtually nothing

 

Maybe add a site setting in your account area you could switch on where you don't see shovelware on people's profiles

[AJ_Radio]

What a shit storm this thread has generated. Seems we can't go a week anymore without threads on shovelware or threads on specific games like The Jumping Taco cropping up.

 

6 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

It means despite the unfair disadvantage of shovelware pointd being taken away we'd never meet on the leaderboard anytime soon. People want to see the shovelware alone yet they forget there is more than that.

 

Just to proof my point I'd vote yes so some people can finally leave five digit rank land until the leaderboard sorts itself again. Give one year after a shovelware purge and the top 500 will almost be the same people as now, my opinion. Perhaps I even gain a position or two.

 

Your trophy profile tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about your stance and your opinions.

[Thrillhelm]

Just now, AJ_Radio said:

What a shit storm this thread has generated. Seems we can't go a week anymore without threads on shovelware or threads on specific games like The Jumping Taco cropping up.

 

 

Your trophy profile tells me EVERYTHING I need to know about your stance and your opinions.

Judging by the looks alone I guess. Tells me a lot about you.

[janpham]

20 minutes ago, Ashande said:

 

I’m not sure what you’re getting at, here, but the way it’s phrased and what you bolded carries a certain vibe of accusation. If that’s not what you intended, then mea culpa. Of course plat stackers are going to tug things in their direction - human nature is always to try to sway things to their side or favor, whatever the conditions may be - but as it is currently designed and what it states it is measuring - the score value of someone’s pile of trophies, nothing else - says, like them or not, care about them or not, they should be included… and excluding them is opening a door to dangerous precedent that could and would be pushed to a breaking point by certain types of people.

 

If you want my personal take, I’d nuke the shovelware (which in my book consists of the Pay4Plat stuff like Jumping <x>, <x> Jump and Stroke the <x>) from orbit, and so far as Leaderboard rank - my own, which is the only one I can speak about with any authority - you can insert random gibberish there and it’ll mean the same to me. Hell, devalue every trophy I have, whether it be “Shining Idol” from Sakura Succubus or “Dead God” from Binding of Isaac, and I won’t particularly care. What I am concerned about is tweaking definitions selectively, envelope pushers who will almost inevitably twist it further, and manipulation of a data set to rig the result.

 

 

Other trophy websites that… generally also have their own algorithms for calculating rank and score? Of the sites I’m aware of, PSNP is the only one with an “unmodified” Leaderboard based solely on the stats provided by the base trophy system at present. If there are others, I’d like to know.

 

https://(URL not allowed)/leaderboard/main

 

There you have your standard leaderboard as the "standard" and main leaderboard besides additional leaderboards.

[You]

Even shit EZPZ games deserve to have their points. This is a trophy website, data copy and pasted from Sony's servers, as shit as things have become, having a separate universe where we have our own points system is not the answer.

 

Making them zero points would be hilarious though. lol

I'd certainly enjoy watching the ensuing chaos if that ever happened.

[AJ_Radio]

2 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

Judging by the looks alone I guess. Tells me a lot about you.

 

I read your posts before in the recent past so I already know what stance you have on these discussions. As far as I'm concerned, the people buying and playing the most shovelware can cry a river should there be more filters added to this website in the future.

 

Nobody as far as I can see who has defended these EZPZs has bothered commenting on Sly Ripper's filter tab regarding shovelware so that basically tells me everything I need to know about these people.

 

It's completely Pay2Win at this point and it's no wonder that Hakoom himself cannot keep up with all of it.

[MoneyShotxox]

1 minute ago, AJ_Radio said:

 

I read your posts before in the recent past so I already know what stance you have on these discussions. As far as I'm concerned, the people buying and playing the most shovelware can cry a river should there be more filters added to this website in the future.

 

Nobody as far as I can see who has defended these EZPZs has bothered commenting on Sly Ripper's filter tab regarding shovelware so that basically tells me everything I need to know about these people.

 

It's completely Pay2Win at this point and it's no wonder that Hakoom himself cannot keep up with all of it.

Hakoom was doing pay to win way before anyone else with all his visual novels he was importing.

[Han_the_Dragon]

14 minutes ago, BlindMango said:

Eh I'm thinking probably keep the points from all games for the regular/points leaderboard, then just introduce a rarity leaderboard where the shovelware isn't counted or counted to an insanely small percent it's worth virtually nothing

 

Maybe add a site setting in your account area you could switch on where you don't see shovelware on people's profiles

I agree with this approach. 

 

What we really need is a functioning rarity leaderboard.

 

I think that's somewhat absurd to think that any game should be worth 0, regardless of what they are. That said, a rarity leaderboard that would statistically make those games worth next to 0, is fair at my eyes!

[Thrillhelm]

Just now, AJ_Radio said:

 

I read your posts before in the recent past so I already know what stance you have on these discussions. As far as I'm concerned, the people buying and playing the most shovelware can cry a river should there be more filters added to this website in the future.

 

Nobody as far as I can see who has defended these EZPZs has bothered commenting on Sly Ripper's filter tab regarding shovelware so that basically tells me everything I need to know about these people.

 

It's completely Pay2Win at this point and it's no wonder that Hakoom himself cannot keep up with all of it.

Well guess nobody was allowed to pass Hakoom then, must have been the shovelware's fault. Ikemenzi should have asked for permission.

 

I say people can have games removed for leaderboard points, it will just temporarily change the leaderboard, and it will still be a dick move because someone's happy even if had to take away other people's points for that.

 

Sorry I am not sifting through the forums to find the filter tab mentions or whatever you want to tell me with that.

 

Guess since some F1 racing team or Premier League team invests more money than others it's also pay2win there.

 

Except that in this leaderboard easy games only get you this far up and not further.

 

 

 

 

[sepheroithisgod]

Absolutely. If something takes zero effort, it should be worth zero points.

[AJ_Radio]

1 minute ago, Thrillhelm said:

Well guess nobody was allowed to pass Hakoom then, must have been the shovelware's fault. Ikemenzi should have asked for permission.

 

I say people can have games removed for leaderboard points, it will just temporarily change the leaderboard, and it will still be a dick move because someone's happy even if had to take away other people's points for that.

 

Sorry I am not sifting through the forums to find the filter tab mentions or whatever you want to tell me with that.

 

Guess since some F1 racing team or Premier League team invests more money than others it's also pay2win there.

 

Except that in this leaderboard easy games only get you this far up and not further.

 

Top trophy accounts were basically team accounts, so nothing new there. I'm sorry, but I absolutely disagree with almost everything you're saying here.

[TheBusToYoker]

@Thrillhelm maybe trying lurking for a while as I'm trying to do out of respect for others sharing their opinion on the subject.

 

[ShadyWARcotix]

Just now, AJ_Radio said:

 

Top trophy accounts were basically team accounts, so nothing new there. I'm sorry, but I absolutely disagree with almost everything you're saying here.

Not all of them are team accounts but it's obvious that you can be top xy if you invest a lot of money and time in trophy hunting.

Edited October 21, 2022 by ShadyWARcotix

[disaster500]

Ideally there would be 2 leaderboards, the current leaderboard and a rarity leaderboard. I don't care about the current leaderboard at all because it takes no skill/effort to climb, but it should stay for the people that like spending £1 to hold X for 2 minutes. A rarity leaderboard would be a lot more interesting for the majority of people here, so it'd be nice to have both.

 

If a rarity leaderboard isn't added, then I would like shovelware to be 0 points. It's clear that the majority of people wish they didn't exist. Changing the rules to make something more fun for the majority of players is 99% of the time a good thing.

[GothGirlMaxine]

19 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

Judging by the looks alone I guess. Tells me a lot about you.

He’s not wrong though 

[AJ_Radio]

Just now, disaster500 said:

Ideally there would be 2 leaderboards, the current leaderboard and a rarity leaderboard. I don't care about the current leaderboard at all because it takes no skill/effort to climb, but it should stay for the people that like spending £1 to hold X for 2 minutes. A rarity leaderboard would be a lot more interesting for the majority of people here, so it'd be nice to have both.

 

If a rarity leaderboard isn't added, then I would like shovelware to be 0 points. It's clear that the majority of people wish they didn't exist. Changing the rules to make something more fun for the majority of players is 99% of the time a good thing.

 

Or just tailor the leaderboards to be more like PSNTrophyLeaders, which rates people in different categories based on Rarity, Completist and Adjusted in addition to Standard. The only issue I found is the website is rather skewed because the website owner has made it as such.

 

I'm not saying this website needs to have the leaderboards like theirs, but it's something to consider if we want to filter the mass amount of shovelware.

[Thrillhelm]

1 minute ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

@Thrillhelm maybe trying lurking for a while as I'm trying to do out of respect for others sharing their opinion on the subject.

 

One, you are not deciding who can post here and who can not. Two, you started an argument with me by attempting to stat-shame me. So while it's your choice to do so, speak for yourself, thanks.