Should Shovelware Be Worth Zero Points?

[GothGirlMaxine]

28 minutes ago, BlindMango said:

Eh I'm thinking probably keep the points from all games for the regular/points leaderboard, then just introduce a rarity leaderboard where the shovelware isn't counted or counted to an insanely small percent it's worth virtually nothing

 

Maybe add a site setting in your account area you could switch on where you don't see shovelware on people's profiles

I agree with this approach, I enjoy going for UR trophies more now so a rarity leaderboard would be nice 

[zultan8212]

I couldn't care less about the leaderboards to be honest. My biggest issue with these shovel ware games is how they've flooded the psn store and taken attention away from games that are actually worth your time. 

[colia100]

2 hours ago, Sikutai said:

I agree, just games under 20 % Rarity should count, everything above is Shovelware. Autopops, Stacks, Story Games without Fighting and Visual Novels shouldn't count either.

 

This is the exact problem. Everyone will judge shovelware games differently,  and who draws the line where.

 

Now whilst I agree with the principle,  and wouldn't touch those (actual) shovelware shite games with a ten foot pole, who is to say what is and isn't? Kind of a judge and jury position...

 

2 hours ago, Crispy_Oglop said:

To be honest, it's pretty clear what is and isn't shovelware. I don't really understand why people are wringing their hands over semantics here.

 

No it isn't. You will always have idiots that think stroking a cat/dog/snake/elephant is challenging enough to count as a respectable plat.

 

Personally,  when I see that shit on someone's list, it tells me enough, no need to take away points, profile is worthless to me anyway... but once again, that's my opinion and someone else will disagree.

 

And so it goes on and on. Live and let live I guess...

[TheBusToYoker]

4 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

One, you are not deciding who can post here and who can not. Two, you started an argument with me by attempting to stat-shame me. So while it's your choice to do so, speak for yourself, thanks.

 

4 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

One, you are not deciding who can post here and who can not. Two, you started an argument with me by attempting to stat-shame me. So while it's your choice to do so, speak for yourself, thanks.

 

It was a suggestion. And sorry again for perceived stat shaming.

[Sergen]

Yeah I think for the most part it's not even about leaderboard ranking for the people, it is about stopping this predatory money making method from being done because these shovelware developers are making quick cash from the trophy addiction. Sly has been approached by shovelware developers for collaborations asking to promote their games to generate more sales and that's why this whole debate is a thing... Limiting the points for shovelware or removing them completely will limit the sales of the shovelware and could help to restore some integrity to the leaderboards. At the end of the day I don't care how other people hunt trophies, it's Sony who can't differentiate shovelware from actual games that took effort to develop and their tactics are destroying the indie market for PSN because a flood of these trash looking games is stacked on top of games that an indie developer put thousands of hours of effort into making. If there was a separate section on the PSN store for this kind of garbage while keeping clean indie games in another section maybe it wouldn't be too severe to have shovelware be a part of the website. I also feel like people just like to get a dopamine hit from shovelware trophy spamming regardless of their leaderboard position so there's probably always gonna be money to make from the shovelware, but removing points from counting on the leaderboard would at least remove the incentive for the top trophy hunters to buy and promote it. As far as people "moving to another leaderboard website", PSNP is the market leader in this field and the other trophy websites have never stepped their game up with features to incentivize switching from PSNP to another trophy website. 

[PalaceOfLove706]

It makes sense filtering out the recently added. That’s a lot cleaner now. I don’t understand why people want to touch the leaderboard. There are 5.56 million gamers tracked while these shovelware games might get 1000 game owners. It’s false you need to play those games to climb the leaderboards. Adding a new type of leaderboard isn’t a bad suggestion. 

[Bumperklever]

1 minute ago, GraniteBeast603 said:

Does not compute.

 

If you're for changing point values, then by definition you're for changing ranks.

 

Don't you have one of your terrible sport analogies like athletism's or hocky pucks to explain the delusional thought proces you have behind the question you asked?

[AJ_Radio]

25 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

One, you are not deciding who can post here and who can not. Two, you started an argument with me by attempting to stat-shame me. So while it's your choice to do so, speak for yourself, thanks.

 

You were being divisive, thus is why a few people have already debated with you, including myself. You clearly cannot differentiate between what is shovelware and what isn't.

 

You failed to acknowledge Sly's shovelware filter tab which I think is a good thing for this community, because the amount of these games coming through is becoming ridiculous at this point. You have no argument here.

 

14 minutes ago, Sergen said:

Yeah I think for the most part it's not even about leaderboard ranking for the people, it is about stopping this predatory money making method from being done because these shovelware developers are making quick cash from the trophy addiction. Sly has been approached by shovelware developers for collaborations asking to promote their games to generate more sales and that's why this whole debate is a thing... Limiting the points for shovelware or removing them completely will limit the sales of the shovelware and could help to restore some integrity to the leaderboards. At the end of the day I don't care how other people hunt trophies, it's Sony who can't differentiate shovelware from actual games that took effort to develop and their tactics are destroying the indie market for PSN because a flood of these trash looking games is stacked on top of games that an indie developer put thousands of hours of effort into making. If there was a separate section on the PSN store for this kind of garbage while keeping clean indie games in another section maybe it wouldn't be too severe to have shovelware be a part of the website. I also feel like people just like to get a dopamine hit from shovelware trophy spamming regardless of their leaderboard position so there's probably always gonna be money to make from the shovelware, but removing points from counting on the leaderboard would at least remove the incentive for the top trophy hunters to buy and promote it. As far as people "moving to another leaderboard website", PSNP is the market leader in this field and the other trophy websites have never stepped their game up with features to incentivize switching from PSNP to another trophy website. 

 

We can't prove it, but I'm certain there are a couple people here who are actually working for these shovelware developers, if not then they are the shovelware developers themselves. It shows with their attitude and their condescending behavior towards long time trophy hunters and forum users who started this hobby before this shovelware became a thing.

 

I know for a fact that back in 2014 - 2016 the PS4 got a fair amount of good indie games. Then sometime after Sony moved their headquarters to California, we started getting crap beginning with Ratalaika where you only have to complete a small portion of a game for the platinum trophy. Ever since then it's been a shitshow of releasing garbage while competent indie developers are either being dragged through the mud or being told they can't release their games on Sony platforms.

 

Makes perfect sense why the competition is absolutely killing in in the indie game department, while Sony clearly doesn't give a damn. I almost completely missed the fact that Axiom Verge 2 was even released for the PS4/PS5 until I saw it on someone's profile.

 

Looking through the new games on the 'Games' section of this website used to be fun. Now it's a nightmare.

Edited October 21, 2022 by AJ_Radio

[starcrunch061]

I think not. Plats are plats.

 

I don't mind the construction of a rarity leaderboard, but for the main leaderboard, it should reflect what Sony considers a plat, a gold, a silver, etc. I.e., it should use the PSN point system.

[ScintillaWolf]

11 minutes ago, Sergen said:

Yeah I think for the most part it's not even about leaderboard ranking for the people, it is about stopping this predatory money making method from being done because these shovelware developers are making quick cash from the trophy addiction. Sly has been approached by shovelware developers for collaborations asking to promote their games to generate more sales and that's why this whole debate is a thing... Limiting the points for shovelware or removing them completely will limit the sales of the shovelware and could help to restore some integrity to the leaderboards. At the end of the day I don't care how other people hunt trophies, it's Sony who can't differentiate shovelware from actual games that took effort to develop and their tactics are destroying the indie market for PSN because a flood of these trash looking games is stacked on top of games that an indie developer put thousands of hours of effort into making. If there was a separate section on the PSN store for this kind of garbage while keeping clean indie games in another section maybe it wouldn't be too severe to have shovelware be a part of the website. I also feel like people just like to get a dopamine hit from shovelware trophy spamming regardless of their leaderboard position so there's probably always gonna be money to make from the shovelware, but removing points from counting on the leaderboard would at least remove the incentive for the top trophy hunters to buy and promote it. As far as people "moving to another leaderboard website", PSNP is the market leader in this field and the other trophy websites have never stepped their game up with features to incentivize switching from PSNP to another trophy website. 

 

This is exactly my angle. I see the mass production of these 'games' as an exploitation of the hobby. The very fact they swamp the website with their multiple stacks and constant releases is far more of a concern than any points attributed to them, but I accept that taking the points away from them will likely kill them off entirely, so ultimately that is what I would vote for.

 

I put myself in the category of not really caring about my leaderboard position. I saw a comment earlier accusing people of only complaining as they don't have the time or money to buy the shovelware and keep up. So as someone who has a healthy amount of both money and time, I can assure you that you can hate this practice and exploitation without having a dog in the fight.

[Thrillhelm]

Just now, AJ_Radio said:

 

You were being divisive, thus is why a few people have already debated with you, including myself. You clearly cannot differentiate between what is shovelware and what isn't.

 

You failed to acknowledge Sly's shovelware filter tab which I think is a good thing for this community, because the amount of these games coming through is becoming ridiculous at this point. You have no argument here.

I am not sorry for having a different opinion and your ad hominem will not change that. Keep playing the gatekeeper with someone else, your toxicity is tiring. Not everyone has 11k posts on this forum and again I will not sift through it because you fail to provide a quote or link. "Oh I cant take this seriously bc Sly wrote something but have fun searching for it." 

 

Btw the "few people" you mean are the same 5 to 10 self-pronunced gatekeepers that try to push their agenda in as many threads about easy games as possible.

[AK-1138]

As long as the same applies to Platinum Games, EA Sports and Arkane, I'm all for it.

[TheBusToYoker]

I've added that option "No - Rarity Leaderboard Instead" after viewing a few posts that want this feature. If you haven't voted yet because of that, there you go.

[Sunny]

Making them be worth less points would be a good idea, but that's something that Sony themselves should implement, otherwise it would reflect an unrealistic status, I mean Sony shouldn't even allow this many trashware onto the store since that's supposedly the whole point of a quality control,  which we can all agree doesn't exist at this point or they are out for lunch permanently, also only last thing,   filtering games with less than 20% is not a good idea, having a higher completion rate doesn't define something as shovelware, if not done carefully it would only increase the obnoxiouness and dick waving here.

[AJ_Radio]

10 minutes ago, Thrillhelm said:

I am not sorry for having a different opinion and your ad hominem will not change that. Keep playing the gatekeeper with someone else, your toxicity is tiring. Not everyone has 11k posts on this forum and again I will not sift through it because you fail to provide a quote or link. "Oh I cant take this seriously bc Sly wrote something but have fun searching for it." 

 

Btw the "few people" you mean are the same 5 to 10 self-pronunced gatekeepers that try to push their agenda in as many threads about easy games as possible.

 

You're a troll. I should of read the complete deluge of crap you posted on a trophy event a couple months ago before I engaged. Furthermore, what I'm referring to is right near the top in the 'Games' tab of this website. You can't miss it.

 

https://psnprofiles.com/games

Edited October 21, 2022 by AJ_Radio

[Han_the_Dragon]

8 minutes ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

I've added that option "No - Rarity Leaderboard Instead" after viewing a few posts that want this feature. If you haven't voted yet because of that, there you go.

Nice, but I had already voted and can't change it to the leaderboard one lol 

[Ashande]

The option was added after I already voted and I am unaware of a means to alter my vote (or I’m a giant liar, am secretly aware of just such a thing, and it’s all part of my secret agenda to claim otherwise… or so I’m told), but of the options provided, offering a Rarity leaderboard is the most palatable to me.

 

Key word there is “offering.” Having a separate leaderboard is fine. Even having an option to pick which one you prefer to have displayed by default on your Profile is fine. Tearing down the existing Leaderboard and creating a new one based on whatever data, calculations or sorcery one chooses to apply to it is also fine, so long as the metrics are clear, well-defined, and not easily corrupted through either malice, selfishness or ignorance, and there is an option to display the raw data. My only complaint in this situation (which I have reiterated dozens of times at this point) is altering something that ostensibly claims to be based on raw data into something that isn’t without fully disclosing that it no longer reflects “pure” data.

[AJ_Radio]

Just now, Ashande said:

The option was added after I already voted and I am unaware of a means to alter my vote (or I’m a giant liar, am secretly aware of just such a thing, and it’s all part of my secret agenda to claim otherwise… or so I’m told), but of the options provided, offering a Rarity leaderboard is the most palatable to me.

 

Key word there is “offering.” Having a separate leaderboard is fine. Even having an option to pick which one you prefer to have displayed by default on your Profile is fine. Tearing down the existing Leaderboard and creating a new one based on whatever data, calculations or sorcery one chooses to apply to it is also fine, so long as the metrics are clear, well-defined, and not easily corrupted through either malice, selfishness or ignorance, and there is an option to display the raw data. My only complaint in this situation (which I have reiterated dozens of times at this point) is altering something that ostensibly claims to be based on raw data into something that isn’t without fully disclosing that it no longer reflects “pure” data.

 

This is why I suggested PSNTrophyLeaders just 30 - 40 minutes ago. The big problem with that website is the calculations particularly on the Rarity leaderboards are heavily skewed. From someone I talked to, the website owner deliberately intended them to be that way. There is also very little communication if any on there.

 

While I hate the constant divide and toxic exchange, at least there's actual discussion here regarding what we want to see moving forward.

[TheBusToYoker]

Yeah I just noticed. I'll make a whole new question.

[Llujei]

Just add another leaderboard excluding shovelware. I think that is a win win solution. The main leaderboard should always display all game trophies regardless of whatever "wares" it is IMO. 

[TheBusToYoker]

New question added. Any more alternatives I'll add them. Try and not vote on any alternative unless you see the one you want.

[AJ_Radio]

5 minutes ago, Sunnyburrito said:

It's not my place to say, but I'd leave it @AJ_Radio , replying further to him will get nowhere, it will only further derail the thread, he's profile is littered with trashware so he will be extra defensive about it.

 

I've posted on threads that I ended up regretting, but that divisive comment earlier was deliberately made to try to shake the topic creator. The choice to not post is available, just like our choice to play what we want.

 

Debating about the shovelware being a growing problem for both the PS Store and this community is a legitimate one. Ratalaika in contrast had at least something going for it, which I cannot say for The Jumping Taco and Breakthrough Gaming Arcade.

 

5 minutes ago, Llujei said:

Just add another leaderboard excluding shovelware. I think that is a win win solution. The main leaderboard should always display all game trophies regardless of whatever "wares" it is IMO. 

 

Agree. It's going to take a lot of work, and I think most will say the 'current' rarity leaderboard isn't adequate.

[Rally-Vincent---]

44 minutes ago, Sergen said:

Yeah I think for the most part it's not even about leaderboard ranking for the people, it is about stopping this predatory money making method from being done because these shovelware developers are making quick cash from the trophy addiction.

 

I highly doubt that. All this "where rarity leaderboard?" shenanigans and "UR is worth more thatn common trophies" predates the shovelware situation. It's a welcome pretense to push the agenda that some games are "better" than others. Once they get a foot in, they'll push that wagon as far as they can.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Rally-Vincent---

[AJ_Radio]

3 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

I highly doubt that. All this "where rarity leaderboard?" shenanigans and "UR is worth more thatn common trophies" is way older. It's a welcome pretense to push the agenda that some games are "better" than others. Once they get a foot in, they'll push that wagon as far as they can.

 

Most people here aren't discussing another rarity leaderboard or the current one which is rather pitiful. With this kind of statement we might as well say that Battlefield: Bad Company 1 and Far Cry 2 are far superior games because of their ultra rare status in contrast to Battlefield V and Far Cry 5, both of which are far easier games that are probably more enjoyable.

 

Keep the current leaderboard, add some filters, and have it branch off into other categories. That will likely satisfy more parties who are dissatisfied with all the shovelware coming in.

[Floorkiller74]

5 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

 

I highly doubt that. All this "where rarity leaderboard?" shenanigans and "UR is worth more thatn common trophies" predates the shovelware situation. It's a welcome pretense to push the agenda that some games are "better" than others. Once they get a foot in, they'll push that wagon as far as they can.

 

 

 This is just hilarious. Those damn gamers and their all games aren't equal AGENDA!!!!!!!!!!!!!