Should Shovelware Be Worth Zero Points?

[fbdbh]

Is this going anywhere? I mean is there any real intent from the developers of this site to implement something like this?

 

I would be okay with a leaderboard that takes rarity into consideration. I'm really not for a system that cherry picks games that shouldn't be included, that's a reprehensible idea. It's either an automated system, or don't bother. I'm thinking: "just don't count trophies above 90%", or something equally hard, mathematical. Don't care if there is some collateral damage from the "good games".

[VigilantCrow]

8 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

 

I highly doubt that. All this "where rarity leaderboard?" shenanigans and "UR is worth more thatn common trophies" predates the shovelware situation. It's a welcome pretense to push the agenda that some games are "better" than others. Once they get a foot in, they'll push that wagon as far as they can.

Some games are better than others, that's the whole point of this thread, 

[jts5009]

I'm all for whatever makes things more fun. Normal people ignore these games because they're not any fun, but they clutter the list of new games and make the leaderboard useless. People at the top of the leaderboards don't want to play them either, but they feel trapped because everyone else plays them. Removing shovelware games by assigning them zero points seems to make things more fun for everyone going forward, and that should be the goal. Further, if the biggest trophy tracking website excludes these games, there's less financial incentive for these companies to keep making these games, as PSN Profiles users won't be buying them anymore.  That hopefully means these games stop coming out.

 

I agree with some potential concerns around a slippery slope in what games get defined as shovelware though. The definition gets murky for games like Edith Finch or the old Telltale games (i.e., real games, but they're easy platinums), so I'd be concerned that rarity-based metrics would incorrectly flag these as shovelware. As long as a human is reviewing the shovelware definition though, it shouldn't be a major problem.

 

I'm hit or miss on deriving a new composite score based on rarity though. Rarity is only loosely correlated to difficulty. Some of my rarest trophies come from NBA 2K20: Easy trophies to earn, but because 2K players generally don't trophy hunt, and because it was a PS+ game, these easy trophies become super rare. I wouldn't want them to be worth 50 times the Spyro platinum because they have 1% completion vs. 50% earning the Spyro platinum (or whatever the actual number is).  If you change up the algorithm to incorporate rarity, you'll still get people trying to game the leaderboards, but they'll just seek out easy rare trophies.

[majob]

3 minutes ago, VigilantCrow said:

Some games are better than others, that's the whole point of this thread, 

The rarity leaderboard debate was way before the shovelware crisis we have now but it centered around people with rare trophies feeling they weren't getting enough acclaim compared to people with volume.

[AJ_Radio]

1 minute ago, jts5009 said:

I agree with some potential concerns around a slippery slope in what games get defined as shovelware though. The definition gets murky for games like Edith Finch or the old Telltale games (i.e., real games, but they're easy platinums), so I'd be concerned that rarity-based metrics would incorrectly flag these as shovelware. As long as a human is reviewing the shovelware definition though, it shouldn't be a major problem.

 

Those all came before this shovelware became a thing. As far as just gaining more trophy points, the most one could do was stack TellTale which meant you had to play another six to ten hours for the platinum.

 

Artifex Mundi used to come out with a number of find the hidden object games. Usually easy, one to three hours with a guide, but absolutely nothing predatory.

 

Personally I just think quality control was lost on Sony once they moved to California. I've looked at Jim Ryan and read some of his statements. One picture I've seen of him holding a controller was probably just for publicity. Probably doesn't even know how to use the damn thing. And.... these are the people who have control.

 

Sony is the main culprit at the end of the day.

[ahmedelebiary]

Don't take away my Mayo points, please ?

[Rally-Vincent---]

7 minutes ago, VigilantCrow said:

Some games are better than others, that's the whole point of this thread, 

 

Speak up a bit, it's difficult to hear because the horse you're on is very high.

 

11 minutes ago, AJ_Radio said:

 

Most people here aren't discussing another rarity leaderboard or the current one which is rather pitiful. With this kind of statement we might as well say that Battlefield: Bad Company 1 and Far Cry 2 are far superior games because of their ultra rare status in contrast to Battlefield V and Far Cry 5, both of which are far easier games that are probably more enjoyable.

 

Keep the current leaderboard, add some filters, and have it branch off into other categories. That will likely satisfy more parties who are dissatisfied with all the shovelware coming in.

 

I am not going to reiterate what has been written over and over and over in these kind of threads. These endless repetitions spam the forum just as much as the shovelware does the main page, everything has been said. What I dislike is the pretense that all of this is about "the greater good" when in reality it's just for selfish reasons.

[Thrillhelm]

And we're at the point where the thread has been hijacked by th rarity leaderboard agenda, with a different angle now that its presented as the lesser of two evils since now taking away shovelware points is the other idea. Adding a leaderboard instead of what OP at first had in mind now seems a good idea, so lets debate again where to put the artificial line what games have to be cut. Now its >50% rarity, lets remove stacks no matter how much effort etc.

Was about time, almost worried the rarity leaderboard discussion wouldnt show up.

[AJ_Radio]

Just now, ahmedelebiary said:

Don't take away my Mayo points, please ?

 

Mayo came well before this current shovelware wave became a thing, so you should be safe.

[LastMinuteSavior]

Everyone here has an agenda.

 

Except for the shovelware bros, obviously.

 

[sweeping-lamp3]

It would be nice if the games marked as shovelware was easily read programmatically like the unobtainable list used for PSNP+ for people who would like to have the list for their own website or it can be shared with other trophy tracking websites.

Edited October 21, 2022 by sweeping-lamp3
grammar

[VigilantCrow]

8 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

 

Speak up a bit, it's difficult to hear because the horse you're on is very high.

If you have something to say, then say it instead of sidestepping like a little bitch.

 

[AJ_Radio]

2 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

Speak up a bit, it's difficult to hear because the horse you're on is very high.

 

I'm pretty sure he was joking there.

 

3 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

I am not going to reiterate what has been written over and over and over in these kind of threads. These endless repetitions spam the forum just as much as the shovelware does the main page, everything has been said. What I dislike is the pretense that all of this is about "the greater good" when in reality it's just for selfish reasons.

 

We already debated over DLC rarity. That wave has passed. A few years ago a rarity leaderboard was in talks, which ended up getting shot down because too many people were in disagreement with it.

 

In the last four to five years we have accomplished nothing. Only the shovelware tab that Sly Ripper himself was nice enough to add to the 'Games' tab becomes the reason that this discussion is being made.

 

So the atmosphere of elitism crops up and a big circlejerk happens. This is why a lot of people have left these forums because of the blatant divide. I definitely don't recall this being nearly an issue several years ago, especially when I first joined up because we had things like 'Trophy Tips' on most games which was a great way to get help from other players who have earned those trophies.

 

And it just goes to show that this community has changed and not for the better. So we continue to bitch which is how 90 percent of shovelware discussion related threads usually end up being.

 

Might as well label every other trophy hunter selfish because we're just playing for our own gain. Which has been there from the very beginning.

 

Nothing changes, more people get upset. Changes get made, more people get upset. Make up your mind.

[farradono]

I’ve watched a video on Playstation Access where they had a competition. About who gains the most trash platinums in a day, and they made this unhealthy habit into a fun competition. No doubt, PlayStation supports this for their monetary gains and PA put on a little show, but it was a splendid show that made me consider a different viewpoint. You cannot replicate this  type of fun by playing  normal games such as, I don’t know, Bloodborne etc.

This answered my question about “how can people even call these things games?”, they are games, crappy ones that you kinda need others to enjoy, but nevertheless games, there are many more horrible games  that don’t have easy platinums, but still exists, if we decide to pursue a ladder regarding shovelware, instead of focusing on a more mathematical approach, such as, for example, a rarity based one, this debate has no solid grounds, what even constitutes a “game”? Just because you can’t see a game, that does not mean that there aren’t others with the wit able to make it a fun game, there could be better choices to spend your ingenuity  towards to, perhaps, but this offers variety, and truthfully, on a personal level, I’d prefer one of these jumping games than God of War 2018, so, their choice aren’t objectively incorrect, rather stem from personal bias. What is “quality”? First the Hannah Montana  and Terminator games were  considered trash, then Mayo came, and they were considered masterpieces compared to it, then Rata, then Breakthrough, then the lizard lady, now jumping food and animal letters, the spiral  of mediocrity will never hit rock bottom, and people’s expectations will slowly become more easy to please. So what are we even discussing? Something that in a couple of years, people will lament that these games were “actual games” unlike the trash they’ll get in a couple of years and so,  will ask continuously in threads to remove them from  the shovel-ware category that blocks them from getting points?

Let the genre(s) stay, let people play what they want, create a rarity Leaderboard, hell, create two rarity Leaderboards, one with the DLC  method of calculation PSNP has, the other with total buyers, so the small minority (who aren’t enough by a long shot to dent rarities as we can already gauge by looking at the rarity Leaderboard of Trophy Leaders, which uses this method) of people that want to buy easy ultra rares can also do that, offer more ways to enjoy the hobby, and leave it at that.

[Rally-Vincent---]

9 minutes ago, VigilantCrow said:

If you have something to say, then say it instead of sidestepping like a little bitch.

 

 

Wanting to have other player's trophies count less then yours because you think they play lesser games and somehow thinking that you are in a morally superior position makes me dislike you. I think you and all who share your stance are hypocrites, especially those who state it is for the trophy system.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Rally-Vincent---

[VigilantCrow]

2 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

 

Wanting to have other player's trophies count less then yours because you think they play lesser games and somehow thinking that you are in a morally superior position makes me dislike you. I think you and all share your stance are hypocrites, especially those who state it is for the trophy system.

You're making a lot of assumptions about what I think, for someone who refused to even ask me for my opinion.

You know what they say about assumptions. 

 

Don't worry though, I don't expect people like you to like me.

Edited October 21, 2022 by VigilantCrow

[AJ_Radio]

12 minutes ago, farradono said:

I’ve watched a video on Playstation Access where they had a competition. About who gains the most trash platinums in a day, and they made this unhealthy habit into a fun competition. No doubt, PlayStation supports this for their monetary gains and PA put on a little show, but it was a splendid show that made me consider a different viewpoint. You cannot replicate this  type of fun by playing  normal games such as, I don’t know, Bloodborne etc.

 

Used to be where Rob and his buddies would cover the latest PS4 blockbusters while occasionally talking about certain trophies that they knew they couldn't get. Sony is gaining from this at the end of the day. Brian of PS5Trophies is into this too, he's done a bunch of these shovelware titles for his fans and for his livestream audience. Before he basically covered trophy guides for big AAA games like Titanfall 2.

 

The community has definitely changed.

 

12 minutes ago, farradono said:

This answered my question about “how can people even call these things games?”, they are games, crappy ones that you kinda need others to enjoy, but nevertheless games, there are many more horrible games  that don’t have easy platinums, but still exists, if we decide to pursue a ladder regarding shovelware, instead of focusing on a more mathematical approach, such as, for example, a rarity based one, this debate has no solid grounds, what even constitutes a “game”? Just because you can’t see a game, that does not mean that there aren’t others with the wit able to make it a fun game, there could be better choices to spend your ingenuity  towards to, perhaps, but this offers variety, and truthfully, on a personal level, I’d prefer one of these jumping games than God of War 2018, so, their choice aren’t objectively incorrect, rather stem from personal bias. What is “quality”? First the Hannah Montana  and Terminator games were  considered trash, then Mayo came, and they were considered masterpieces compared to it, then Rata, then Breakthrough, then the lizard lady, now jumping food and animal letters, the spiral  of mediocrity will never hit rock bottom, and people’s expectations will slowly become more easy to please. So what are we even discussing? Something that in a couple of years, people will lament that these games were “actual games” unlike the trash they’ll get in a couple of years and so,  will ask continuously in threads to remove them from  the shovel-ware category that blocks them from getting points?

Let the genre(s) stay, let people play what they want, create a rarity Leaderboard, hell, create two rarity Leaderboards, one with the DLC  method of calculation PSNP has, the other with total buyers, so the small minority (who aren’t enough by a long shot to dent rarities as we can already gauge by looking at the rarity Leaderboard of Trophy Leaders, which uses this method) of people that want to buy easy ultra rares can also do that, offer more ways to enjoy the hobby, and leave it at that.

 

It's the same as people sharing a YouTube video that is objectively bad in terms of entertainment, but they still enjoy it because it offers some sort of 'shock and awe' value. YouTube Shorts and TikTok clips amount to nothing more than fluff for the most part, but people get enjoyment out of them.

 

Doesn't matter how many times I debate that 'Crank That' by Soulja Boy is objectively worse than 'To Live & Die in LA' by 2Pac, or that modern rock music is somehow better than Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon, undoubtedly one of the greatest music rock albums to grace mankind.

 

It's the spiral of mediocrity. And there are enough people to defend that mediocrity. The corporations found that out a very long time ago, and Sony allowing these shovelware titles in is no different.

Edited October 21, 2022 by AJ_Radio

[TheBusToYoker]

37 minutes ago, VigilantCrow said:

Some games are better than others, that's the whole point of this thread, 

 

Some games are actually games 

[Rally-Vincent---]

4 minutes ago, VigilantCrow said:

Don't worry though, I don't expect people like you to like me.

 

15 minutes ago, VigilantCrow said:

If you have something to say, then say it instead of sidestepping like a little bitch.

 

 

So, stick to your own advice.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Rally-Vincent---

[mrmivo]

36 minutes ago, Rally-Vincent--- said:

push the agenda that some games are "better" than others.

 

The argument is that a "game" that awards a platinum trophy in one or three minutes, and is only made, sold, and bought for that purpose, shouldn't have the same weight (value in terms of leaderboard contribution) than actual games that are not solely about unlocking a platinum trophy. I feel this is a reasonable argument.

 

This argument is always countered by "who decides the value of a game", which is why I think an automated, unbiased, self-regulating system would be the least controversial approach. Rarity is a suitable metric for this. You could go further and consider an average of the top-x completion times, but that is probably much less reliable and not as dynamic/self-regulating as rarity.

[VigilantCrow]

3 minutes ago, AMadScotsGuy said:

 

Some games are actually games 

What do you mean? You click a button and get a result on the screen. That's the basic definition of a game. You have kids by chance? That's literally the kind of games that you'd play with an infant.

 

You and I have both seen the oceans of tears as people demand more accessible games. Only fair we have games that are so easy even an infant minded gaming journalist, can be successful. 

Edited October 21, 2022 by VigilantCrow

[AJ_Radio]

1 minute ago, VigilantCrow said:

What do you mean? You click a button and get a result on the screen. That's the basic definition of a game. You have kids by chance? That's literally the kind of games that you'd play with an infant.

 

You and I have both seen the oceans of tears as people demand more accessible games. Only fair we have games that are so easy even an infant minded gaming journalist, can be successful. 

 

There's a difference between accessible games and blatant shovelware that was made with little to no effort or passion.

[Rally-Vincent---]

2 hours ago, mrmivo said:

 

The argument is that a "game" that awards a platinum trophy in one or three minutes, and is only made, sold, and bought for that purpose, shouldn't have the same weight (value in terms of leaderboard contribution) than actual games that are not solely about unlocking a platinum trophy. I feel this is a reasonable argument.

 

This argument is always countered by "who decides the value of a game", which is why I think an automated, unbiased, self-regulating system would be the least controversial approach. Rarity is a suitable metric for this. You could go further and consider an average of the top-x completion times, but that is probably much less reliable and not as dynamic/self-regulating as rarity.

 

The thing is, Sony decides the trophy values, and unless Sony makes the changes, any change on PSNP that is pushed for is a deviation that reflects the mindset of those who want exactly that change. It is that mindset behind that that rubs me the wrong way.

Edited October 21, 2022 by Rally-Vincent---

[VigilantCrow]

Just now, AJ_Radio said:

 

There's a difference between accessible games and blatant shovelware that was made with little to no effort or passion.

Is there though? At what point does accessibility become shovelware? 

[TheBusToYoker]

3 minutes ago, VigilantCrow said:

What do you mean? You click a button and get a result on the screen. That's the basic definition of a game. You have kids by chance? That's literally the kind of games that you'd play with an infant.

 

You and I have both seen the oceans of tears as people demand more accessible games. Only fair we have games that are so easy even an infant minded gaming journalist, can be successful. 

 

I'm pretty confident most kids would think jumping food games are trash. And question if they are actually games.

Edited October 21, 2022 by AMadScotsGuy