Digital Foundry: Why the return of 30fps console games is inevitable

[here4headshots]

11 hours ago, Elvick_ said:

 

And GK doesn't look better with time, it looks worse than the last Batman game... GK looks like it came out 10 years ago and was just remastered for this gen. So what are we getting in exchange for shitty performance? Because it's not a game that looks better. It looks significantly worse than AK in every regard. The only thing you can claim we get in exchange is the multiplayer. But you can play alone, so why is single player restricted in both performance and visual fidelity based on something you aren't actively using? It's almost like the developers are shitty or something.

 

I expect games to perform better with time. We're at the point of diminishing returns with graphics. Something nobody is talking about as I go back through this thread. That's why the focus is on stuff like raytracing now. Because there's only so many pores you can put on a character model before nobody gives a shit or notices. It certainly doesn't push sales that when you zoom in 100x in photomode that you can see a defined Kratos nipple. Did that really improve the game? Even visually? Not really. 

 

 

I agree. We got nothing with the "next gen"-only GK. It doesn't look next gen and it plays worse than it's lack of visual quality belies. I think somewhere in this thread you criticized the people that dive in to defend the game just because they love Batman. Those people make me especially angry because they're allowing WB Montreal to lower the acceptable standards for the new generation without consequence. Other game developers take note of sales and critical reception of these low quality titles. GK was not well received, but Plague Tale Requiem was. If they can get away with charging $70 for GK, or even $60 for a 30fps "indie", what's stopping Respawn from having a 30fps-only mode that eeks out just a tiny bit of barely noticeable ray tracing for Jedi Survivor? Or WB Interactive with the new Suicide Sqad and so on? Why would they bother if there are a caravan of gamers ready to defend it just because they really like Star Wars or DCU?

[Slava]

Redfall is capped at 30fps at launch. 4K on Series X, 1440p on Series S.

 

While it's not a PS5 title, it acts as another example of a 30fps current gen AAA game. The interesting thing about Redfall is that the 60fps performance mode is promised in a form of update and it's coming some time "later". Was there another example of a game with downloadable frames ?? I know some games that had updates with added 40fps modes like Horizon: Forbidden West, or next-gen patches for last gen games. But I can't remember anything like this.

[Vault-TecPhantom]

17 minutes ago, Slava said:

Redfall is capped at 30fps at launch. 4K on Series X, 1440p on Series S.

 

While it's not a PS5 title, it acts as another example of a 30fps current gen AAA game. The interesting thing about Redfall is that the 60fps performance mode is promised in a form of update and it's coming some time "later". Was there another example of a game with downloadable frames ? I know some games that had updates with added 40fps modes like Horizon: Forbidden West, or next-gen patches for last gen games. But I can't remember anything like this.

 

 

Life is Strange :True Colours and, I believe, Watch Dogs Legion ran at 30 fps at  launch.

Although what Square & Deck Nine did with LIS was more scummy as they didn't reveal that a 60fps patch would actually be coming until it was due to be released. This was an obvious ploy to prevent people like me who would have waited that extra month from passing on a day 1 buy until the 60fps patch was ready. 

 

I recently replayed Watch Dogs: Legion on ps4 and ps5 and it really just reaffirms my position on this. 60 needs to be new standard and anything less on current gen consoles is unacceptable.

The PS4 version of Watch Dogs Legion was an absolute eye sore to go back to, like looking at Vaseline smeared across the screen with that crappy frame rate. When I loaded up the ps5 version it was a breath of fresh air.

 

I'm also playing Skyrim again for the umpteeth time but this time on ps5 via the special edition update. With the more powerful hardware and frame rate Bethesda's masterpiece has finally found a machine that can match the weight of such an ambitious game. It's the definitive way to way it and nothing else will do.

 

On that note, I've reached a point of no return where now unless there's an auto pop/cross save , or the game is short or I've already started the game on ps4 before getting a ps5 that I simply cannot stack a ps4 version if it's not 60 fps. Just not gonna put myself through that torture!

[Eraezr]

Rumoured PS5 Pro: "Bet?"

[Vault-TecPhantom]

So with Plague Tale Requiem getting a 60fps patch it gives me hope that the 30 frames at launch was not necessarily the beginning of the decline of higher frames on consoles but simply, as I suspected, the game being rushed out too early, as is the case with a lot of games these days. 

 

[Slava]

They found a way to handle the power of rats.

[MatThaRiPP3R84]

On 24/11/2022 at 4:55 AM, Z1MZUM said:

Sony kind of went a little cheap on the gpu, However the cost of the PS5 is pretty reasonable considering so we don't want a $2000 console anyway. I don't even use RTX on a 3080 TI so I don't care that much tbh, I do however get at least 120hz on every game except the frame locked titles like Elden Ring. We should see potential in the PS5 though customization. I've had mine now since day 1 (Really day 3 as it was couriered from Tokyo) and tbh I'm happy with PS4 games. All industries have been affected badly by Covid so that's where we are at.

 

If DF ever has the balls to just say we think PC is better then we won't see this stuff, I think they are scared of boobies.

did it ever occur to you they scrutinise the games, not the machines people play them on? news flash buddy just because your a raging fanboy doesn't mean everyone is. just means you ignorantly believe everyone is just like you. they aren't.

 

I personally have no interest in 30 fps games. I'd rather play games that look like returnal or demons souls at 60 fps then Unreal Engine 5 lumen bollocks at sub 30. if a game ships with 30 from this point i'd just skip it regardless of what it was. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by MatThaRiPP3R84

[Dreakon13]

As it stands the PS5 is basically just a PS4 with higher framerate and resolution standards.  Historically performance across generations had stayed roughly the same (20-30fps) but graphics improved dramatically... now we're seeing a shift in expectations for performance, but it comes at the cost of graphical and technological evolution.  Since realistically you can't do both, better and more experimental graphical technology comes at a cost of performance, improved performance comes at the cost of graphical fidelity.

 

If things stay the way they are, the PS5 will never really amount to much more than a PS4.5 as the new performance standards bridge the generational gap that improved graphics used to.  The PS6 will reap the rewards of this though, as it'll benefit from the standards the PS5's generation put into place, as well as hosting better hardware to finally see us try something other than games that can run on a PS4 at 1080P/30fps.

 

EDIT: Basically what I'm saying is that the PS5 is a transitionary generation.  There may be games occasionally that take advantage of its hardware in terms of graphical and technological evolution or developers that can't get their games working well enough to meet the benchmarks... but ultimately the PS5 just exists to play PS4 games as close to 4K/60fps as it can.  So that standard gets set, and future console generations can use their additional resources shifting back to a focus on improving the technology.

Edited May 14, 2023 by Dreakon13

[Vault-TecPhantom]

2 hours ago, Dreakon13 said:

As it stands the PS5 is basically just a PS4 with higher framerate and resolution standards.  Historically performance across generations had stayed roughly the same (20-30fps) but graphics improved dramatically... now we're seeing a shift in expectations for performance, but it comes at the cost of graphical and technological evolution.  Since realistically you can't do both, better and more experimental graphical technology comes at a cost of performance, improved performance comes at the cost of graphical fidelity.

 

If things stay the way they are, the PS5 will never really amount to much more than a PS4.5 as the new performance standards bridge the generational gap that improved graphics used to.  The PS6 will reap the rewards of this though, as it'll benefit from the standards the PS5's generation put into place, as well as hosting better hardware to finally see us try something other than games that can run on a PS4 at 1080P/30fps.

 

EDIT: Basically what I'm saying is that the PS5 is a transitionary generation.  There may be games occasionally that take advantage of its hardware in terms of graphical and technological evolution or developers that can't get their games working well enough to meet the benchmarks... but ultimately the PS5 just exists to play PS4 games as close to 4K/60fps as it can.  So that standard gets set, and future console generations can use their additional resources shifting back to a focus on improving the technology.

 

tbf the same was said about the PS4, i.e. that it was merely a transitional console. I remember people saying that the only thing it offered was better graphics, calling it the "remastered generation" at the start...and then we got The Witcher 3. I think it's too early to tell right now.

[Dreakon13]

15 hours ago, Vault-TecPhantom said:

 

tbf the same was said about the PS4, i.e. that it was merely a transitional console. I remember people saying that the only thing it offered was better graphics, calling it the "remastered generation" at the start...and then we got The Witcher 3. I think it's too early to tell right now.

 

A lot of the remasters on the PS4 stemmed from the PS3's unusual architecture and lack of compatibility, and publishers/developers wanting their games sitting in the latest storefronts able to be sold and make money... and the situation is different enough with the PS5 to warrant consideration.  Gamers won't tolerate ~30fps like they used to... and if (for the most part) the only way to achieve 4K/60fps or close to it on the PS5 is with otherwise PS4 quality games, then this is going to be a generation of pumped up PS4 games.

 

This may be the new cycle, where the previous gen stays alive for most of the next gen in the form of 1080P/30fps versions, since at that point previous gen gamers are just happy to still be kicking.  Which means we'll finally see PS5 quality games with the PS6.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Dreakon13

[here4headshots]

On 4/13/2023 at 2:21 PM, Vault-TecPhantom said:

 

On that note, I've reached a point of no return where now unless there's an auto pop/cross save , or the game is short or I've already started the game on ps4 before getting a ps5 that I simply cannot stack a ps4 version if it's not 60 fps. Just not gonna put myself through that torture!

 

Same. It will take a heaven and earth type of excitement for me to buy a new game that launches with 30fps. Even then, by the time I hear the performance specs do not include 60, I believe my excitement would be drained and good vibes lost. It really is that big of a deal for me.

[here4headshots]

On 5/14/2023 at 2:46 PM, Vault-TecPhantom said:

 

tbf the same was said about the PS4, i.e. that it was merely a transitional console. I remember people saying that the only thing it offered was better graphics, calling it the "remastered generation" at the start...and then we got The Witcher 3. I think it's too early to tell right now.

 

The PS4 was a bridge to the HD generation of tvs coming out. We went from 720p games to 1080p games, occasional 4k games (especially with the PS4 Pro), and kept the 30fps standard. PS4 *really was* a transitional console. There's a lot of material and discussions online talking about the power leap from the PS3/Xbox 360 generation to last gen. 

 

PS5 is a true generational leap from PS4/Xbox One in terms of power (texture fill, pixel fill rates etc). I'm not sure what that guy you quoted is talking about.

 

[Vault-TecPhantom]

So I'm replaying Plague Tale Requiem (already beaten and 100% on series X; great game)  and just wanted to warn people who haven't bothered to watch the DF analysis. Although the camera and main characters both move in 60fps, NPCs in the background are in 30 and so are the rats and hoo boy if there was ever a great demonstration of the difference between the two it's in this game. Background NPCs look like stop motion animation. ?

I literally lol'd when I saw the rats for the first time back when I played it on xbox because moving at 30fps against a 60fps camera it's never been more clear how low the graphical quality is on them overall which is less noticeable in Innocence. Overall, though, it's not too bad because the most important elements (camera, Amicia) are in 60 so encounters are still pleasant. Hopefully, for those still waiting to play Asobo can get the background NPCs and rats in 60 too with more time. It's a fantastic game and deserves any boost it can get.

 

[TalalHmd]

Why the switch to PC is inevitable

[zizimonster]

10 minutes ago, TalalHmd said:

Why the switch to PC is inevitable

Very few people have switched to PC.

 

It's actually the other way around. sauce

[TalalHmd]

10 hours ago, zizimonster said:

Very few people have switched to PC.

 

It's actually the other way around. sauce

 

to be honest, that's just a random article from 2019

 

 

[Vault-TecPhantom]

Insomniac is about to put all these other dev studios to shame once again. Apparently Spider-Man 2 will have ray tracing on all performance modes, including 60fps:

 

https://www.pushsquare.com/news/2023/09/marvels-spider-man-2-has-ray-tracing-at-60fps-on-ps5

 

It's even more impressive when you consider that Spider-Man 2 is a proper PS5 game (and not a cross gen game like Miles Morales) with the power of the PS5's SSD enabling the devs to do things they couldn't do last gen that undoubtedly  would have made achieving raytracing across all  performance modes challenging. So much for the return to 30fps being "inevitable". 

 

I've said it once and I'll say it again: 60fps needs to be the new standard and any developer who cannot achieve this should be viewed with deep scrutiny going forward. Playing Starfield at 30fps has only reaffirmed this - an otherwise beautiful looking game where the visual quality is utterly ruined by making the player feel like they're moving through mud.

 

[poker_1987]

Ps5 us just a transitional console for the ps5 pro