How would a Leaderboard look without Auto-popping and Stacking?

[DrBloodmoney]

44 minutes ago, Darling Baphomet said:

Then, as usual, you're arguing with a strawman.

 

Oh, would that it were so ?

 

You know, you literally began this little tete-a-tete by constructing a straw man to argue with:

 

13 hours ago, Darling Baphomet said:

the problem with these arguments is that autopoppers seem to assume that platinuming one games, for whatever reason, entitles them to two platinums. It does not.

 

...then proceded to double down on that when you were called on it, by changing the straw man's clothes to:

 

1 hour ago, Darling Baphomet said:

And no, being able to autopop specific games does not mean you are entitled to autopop every platinum you earn.

 

which no one suggested.

 

...all of which, BTW, I was quoting verbatim when I responded - with helpful highlights to show exactly which parts of your posts I was responding to.

 

 

So, one of us certainly was arguing with straw men....

...but I think it's clear which one ?

Edited January 10, 2023 by DrBloodmoney

[Ragowit]

8 hours ago, MarCCeoN said:

Hello Ragowit,

 

First of all, I would like to commend you for this great and interesting ranking list. In any case, it reflects the places better than most ranking lists, even if there is a lot of potential for discussion.

Unfortunately I have hidden trophies due to a broken Vita-Trick trophy list.

To understand your decision to remove players with hidden trophies from the list, what is the reason? Is it for programming reasons or just that everyone who hides trophies is a cheater?

 

Greeting
Marc

 

It's because there's no need to hide games on PSN100. As far as I know, people hide games because one or more of the following reasons

• Unobtainable trophies, making it impossible for them to gain 100% completion.
• They didn't enjoy the game or found it to hard, no intention on reaching 100% and wants to hide it because of that.
• Cheated, and hides it to be back on leaderboard on sites like PSNProfiles.
• ...and there's probably more.

The first one is taken care of on PSN100, the site tries to tag everything correctly so it's always possible to reach 100% in the current state of the game.

The second one is up to the player, but PSN100 want everything to be visible to not skew the trophy rarity stats.

The third one would make you out of the leaderboard on PSN100 anyway. If you unhide a cheated game, you will then be tagged as a cheater and removed from the leaderboard. With that said, I don't know what "broken Vita-Trick" is, and if it's considered a cheat on PSN100. As an example, we don't flag users as cheaters if they unlocked everything in Call of Duty: Black Ops II since in that game another player can unlock everything for you in a multiplayer game, without you knowing about it beforehand. And that doesn't seem fair to tag those players as cheaters.

 

So basically it's maybe just to be sure that we aren't dealing with a cheater.

 

 

5 hours ago, diskdocx said:

Thanks for the clarification. I was assuming you would remove the whole game, not just individual trophies. Makes sense now that you have explained it. Ultimately I still don't think this is a very fair way to run a leaderboard, and it really does prioritize new spam, but at least it is clear.

 

I did note a few games that need cleaning up - you have TLOU PS3 as obsolete, but have kept the Remaster on PS4. I assume this should be replaced by the PS5 release. I also noted the Metro Last Light (PS3) and LL Redux (PS4) are both counted. I assume the PS3 release should be obsolete.

 

Couple of questions - how do I remove 0% games from my profile? I have deleted the games, never earned trophies, and they are no longer on my profile on any other site, but still on your tracker? And how are you counting rarity? I assume it isn't based on actual trophy rarity, but rather how common the game is from an ownership perspective? Like, GOW 2018 is worth 6 points, TLOU Remaster is 136 points, but Dungeonoid is worth 78,316?!?!

 

Thanks for pointing out those games. Had completely missed Metro: Last Light! It's now tagged as obsolete in favor for the Redux. However, I still have a struggle on how to handle remakes. In the current state of PSN100, I actually consider a remake such a vast change that they are its own title. The easiest game to think about is Final Fantasy 7 and its Remake. PSN100 haven't tagged the original as obsolete because of the remake. That's why remastered TLOU PS4 isn't tagged as obsolete in favor for the PS5 remake. Same with Demon's Souls, as an example.

About removal of 0% games on your profile. PSN100 doesn't have support for that (yet)... I don't really know how other sites handles it, but it would require to always do full scans of players to find if a game is gone or not. In order to try and speed things up, PSN100 simply stops as soon it finds a game that's already been scanned and moves on to the next player to scan.

 

And rarity is calculated very differently then other sites. It's always the (amount of trophy owners)/50000 (PSN100 only calculate stats from the top 50k players). So the rarity isn't really how rare the trophy is within that game, but rather how rare it's between trophy hunters. Since this is the formula, you can actually compare trophy rarity between different games in order to see which is rarer from the point of view of a trophy hunter. So in the case of Dungeonoid, that game currently only have 15 players, meaning that all its trophies are probably very rare with the above calculation. And the rarer the trophy, the more points it got. Here's the formula I use, with an explanation: 

 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Ragowit

[MonaSaxPayne]

1 hour ago, Darling Baphomet said:

Except that the most common defense of autopops I've seen is, "I already platinumed the game, so why should I have to play it again?!"

 

to be honest.. I've mostly seen people say that as a response to multiplayer centric titles that got a new release on current gen, and had all your old stats/cosmetics transferred over. in cases like this, I think it is a fair argument to simply want to continue on the new platform without losing any of your progress from your past playtime (including trophies)

 

now ideally, Sony could have easily just implemented one trophy list per game (just like Microsoft does).. I think multi region stacks and autopops for the exact same game are silly... but.. its officially sanctioned by Sony ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 

 

I already admitted that I like autopops cuz free trophies.. so I personally will do it as long as a particular title allows me too.. but at the same time I don't see it as something every developer SHOULD implement as a standard

Edited January 10, 2023 by MonaSaxPayne

[Ashande]

13 hours ago, janzor88 said:

[snip]

No idea why Sony allowed auto-popping platinums and stacking in the first place. 

More profits probably.

 

It should have been like on Xbox, where games share an achievement list no matter the platform.

 

I can’t speak for Sony, but I can think of two reasons why it is allowed/implemented: One, so you can carry progress over reasonably seamlessly. You can argue whether or not that’s a benefit, but a lot of folks who’re halfway through a game when a better/complete/updated version becomes available will want to switch over so they can access the new content, and not having to do everything you already did before you can do so is a benefit… and if you allow bringing the save over, logic says it should bring the trophies, too. (Of course, now we have Witcher 3, which I predict is going to lead to a lot of flagging in the near future…) Spinning off from that is rationale #2, only applicable to trophy hunters and related websites. If you allow progress to carry over but not the trophies, you’re going to get all kinds of issues where things didn’t pop “correctly” or in order

 

I don’t disagree that it would have been better and simpler to just link the trophy lists (though in some instances, such as DMC5, the devs went with an entirely different list, making that impossible… though DMC5, at least, does not allow save importing, so you’re doing it from scratch regardless), but as I understand it, there were technical issues why that wasn’t feasible, primarily due to a change in the coding and data associated with trophies (probably so it can display progress on select trophies and interact with the trophy tracker.) I imagine those same issues are the same reason you can’t see PS5 trophies on the PS3 or Vita (not sure if they show up on PS4 or not.) 

[MonaSaxPayne]

8 minutes ago, Ashande said:

I imagine those same issues are the same reason you can’t see PS5 trophies on the PS3 or Vita (not sure if they show up on PS4 or not.) 

 

initially, you couldn't but there has since been a patch to the PS4 where u can see PS5 trophies now

[Walt the Dog]

1 minute ago, Ashande said:

I don’t disagree that it would have been better and simpler to just link the trophy lists (though in some instances, such as DMC5, the devs went with an entirely different list, making that impossible… though DMC5, at least, does not allow save importing, so you’re doing it from scratch regardless), but as I understand it, there were technical issues why that wasn’t feasible, primarily due to a change in the coding and data associated with trophies (probably so it can display progress on select trophies and interact with the trophy tracker.) I imagine those same issues are the same reason you can’t see PS5 trophies on the PS3 or Vita (not sure if they show up on PS4 or not.) 

PS5 trophies do show up on PS4, but it had to be enabled via a system update.

 

Also AFAIK, the different trophy list data architecture between PS3/PS4/Vita and PS5 is more or less the primary reason for the amount of autopop we're seeing now. Autopop was a thing as far back as PS3/Vita where some games opted for that when doing cloud save transfer, though a fair amount of other games just opted to combine lists from the consoles instead and while I don't have first-hand knowledge of this, I believe there was eventually a mandate that games could have either cross-save or separate trophy lists between consoles, but not both, with the only exception to this rule being Senran Kagura: Estival Versus since it had the separate lists from not having cross-save, but then eventually got cross-save in a patch. Fat chance we'll ever see a similar mandate for PS4 -> PS5 autopop since that would require being able to combine those lists in the first place.

[sweeping-lamp3]

51 minutes ago, Ragowit said:

 

I don't know what "broken Vita-Trick" is, and if it's considered a cheat on PSN100.

 

 

It is a method of playing games from other regions on the PS Vita.  However, if done incorrectly it can make trophies pop out of order.  Does PSN100 check for trophies that pop out of order?

[MarCCeoN]

14 hours ago, Ragowit said:

 

It's because there's no need to hide games on PSN100. As far as I know, people hide games because one or more of the following reasons

• Unobtainable trophies, making it impossible for them to gain 100% completion.
• They didn't enjoy the game or found it to hard, no intention on reaching 100% and wants to hide it because of that.
• Cheated, and hides it to be back on leaderboard on sites like PSNProfiles.
• ...and there's probably more.

The first one is taken care of on PSN100, the site tries to tag everything correctly so it's always possible to reach 100% in the current state of the game.

The second one is up to the player, but PSN100 want everything to be visible to not skew the trophy rarity stats.

The third one would make you out of the leaderboard on PSN100 anyway. If you unhide a cheated game, you will then be tagged as a cheater and removed from the leaderboard. With that said, I don't know what "broken Vita-Trick" is, and if it's considered a cheat on PSN100. As an example, we don't flag users as cheaters if they unlocked everything in Call of Duty: Black Ops II since in that game another player can unlock everything for you in a multiplayer game, without you knowing about it beforehand. And that doesn't seem fair to tag those players as cheaters.

 

So basically it's maybe just to be sure that we aren't dealing with a cheater.

 

 

 

I see, good reasons.

 

Well I'll probably stay on PSNprofiles for a while.

I can calculate my own position on 100PSN :).

 

But I will continue to follow the development of the site, good luck and happy creating.

 

Marc

[MrShovelware]

On 10/01/2023 at 7:08 PM, DrBloodmoney said:

 

See, the problem with this argument... is that it is demonstrably and axiomatically false. 

 

The existence of auto pop means, for better or worse, platinuming one game does entitle people to two platinums.

Whether you like it or not, the entitlement is self-evident.

 

In fact, in some cases, it is not only an entitlement, but a necessity.

Hitman 3, for example.

There's nothing wrong with his argument. Auto popping is a total cancer and mistake on Sonys behalf. Any kind of trophy platinum should require some kind of effort.

[Dry]

5 minutes ago, MrShovelware said:

There's nothing wrong with his argument.

 

Wrong pronoun.

 

5 minutes ago, MrShovelware said:

Auto popping is a total cancer and mistake on Sonys behalf. Any kind of trophy platinum should require some kind of effort.

 

You're funny, Mr. Shovelware.

[RedDevil757]

If there was a leaderboard that filtered all platinums earned in let's say under a hour. If so start hunting again. I really miss trophy hunting. It's just not the same now

[Meikoro]

On 10.1.2023 at 3:59 PM, diskdocx said:

Couple of questions - how do I remove 0% games from my profile? I have deleted the games, never earned trophies, and they are no longer on my profile on any other site, but still on your tracker? And how are you counting rarity? I assume it isn't based on actual trophy rarity, but rather how common the game is from an ownership perspective? Like, GOW 2018 is worth 6 points, TLOU Remaster is 136 points, but Dungeonoid is worth 78,316?!?!

 

You can delete 0% Trophy Lists simple by seleting the Game with it and press "Option" or Triangle Button and select Delete. Its a Feature it was enabled some time during PS4 Era.

 

I think its no Point in disscusion if Stacking and Auto-pop should exist or allowed since this is also a official feature from Sony. Soyn wants that you can have the Game multiple Times on your Profile, for whatever reasons.

 

But its needed to sort out any Shovelware, even if the Top 100 maybe not change it will effect greatly all others below them.

[diskdocx]

1 hour ago, Meikoro said:

 

You can delete 0% Trophy Lists simple by seleting the Game with it and press "Option" or Triangle Button and select Delete. Its a Feature it was enabled some time during PS4 Era.

 

I think its no Point in disscusion if Stacking and Auto-pop should exist or allowed since this is also a official feature from Sony. Soyn wants that you can have the Game multiple Times on your Profile, for whatever reasons.

 

But its needed to sort out any Shovelware, even if the Top 100 maybe not change it will effect greatly all others below them.

I know how to delete it from my console profile. The issue is that psn100 continues to list my 0% games.

[Meikoro]

12 minutes ago, diskdocx said:

I know how to delete it from my console profile. The issue is that psn100 continues to list my 0% games.

 

Strange.

 

I quick look'ed up on my List: https://psn100.net/player/Meikoro?page=1&filter=incomplete

and anything is correct. I had a few 0% Lists to delete in the past. Nothinng shows up here.

 

 

EDIT:

 

i saw a funny case https://psn100.net/game/12976-higurashi-when-they-cry-ho/Meikoro

 

here for example the original PSVITA List got mixed up in the new PS4 List turns in a incomplete Platinum Game with missing Trophies.

I know the Site is anything near from perfect but wasn't the point in getting rid of old Lists, instead of fusing it? Or will the owner fusing all lists?

Edited January 12, 2023 by Meikoro

[GodKaio-Ken]

On 1/8/2023 at 0:45 PM, Elvick_ said:

How do you think stacking is the same with autopopping? "You have completed a game once, why should you get the value twice with no extra effort?" That doesn't apply to stacking since you do it all again.

If someone had a site that could track Steam, Xbox, and PlayStation achievements for a combined leaderboard and someone got Super Meat Boy to 100% on all of them would that "not count" to you? Did that require "no extra effort"? I think you meant silly opinion. I love stacking since it gives me an excuse to replay games I like. Sure I could replay the other version I already did, but why not get another platinum in the process? Did my first platinum of Jak & Daxter not count either since I also got 100% on PS2? 

 

I don't agree with your examples. They are all of playing games across the multiple systems. It would of course count once for each. 

 

That doesn't explain why you should get the same trophy twice on the same system. 

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't. I'm fine with stacks (don't like autopops) but I am against the practice of intentionally stacking many easy games just for the trophies. 

 

None of this is official so I don't really care what others do, I'm speaking simply of how I view those types of profiles. 

Edited January 12, 2023 by GodKaio-Ken

[Annoyingtiger888]

Personally, I don't really understand why it's a thing or how it works. Like, do you just load up a game you've platinumed on the PS5 and suddenly you have all the trophies? Because if so, I'm gonna be super disappointed that I can't platinum Skyrim again ? 

 

I did some skimming through the thread and I don't get why people are so upset. If you think it's a terrible thing, don't do it. People worry way too much about what other people are doing, they need to worry about themselves more. If someone decides they want the platinum for the same game on two consoles and there exists a way to get it without breaking any rules or ToS, then that's their choice. No skin off my back. I personally don't want to do this, but if it happens, it happens. Not the end of the world.

 

Still, I wanna platinum Skyrim again on my own. That's the only thing I'd be upset about haha

[Ashande]

1 hour ago, Annoyingtiger888 said:

Personally, I don't really understand why it's a thing or how it works. Like, do you just load up a game you've platinumed on the PS5 and suddenly you have all the trophies? Because if so, I'm gonna be super disappointed that I can't platinum Skyrim again  

 

I did some skimming through the thread and I don't get why people are so upset. If you think it's a terrible thing, don't do it. People worry way too much about what other people are doing, they need to worry about themselves more. If someone decides they want the platinum for the same game on two consoles and there exists a way to get it without breaking any rules or ToS, then that's their choice. No skin off my back. I personally don't want to do this, but if it happens, it happens. Not the end of the world.

 

Still, I wanna platinum Skyrim again on my own. That's the only thing I'd be upset about haha

 

Generally how it works is there is some form of export or import option listed on the main menu. A chunk of games require you to load up the PS4 version, hit an “export” option, then boot up the PS5 one, hit an “import” option, and you’re off to the races. Some games skip that step, just giving you the “import” option.

 

There are a few games that do so without your control - Mortal Kombat 11 and Hitman 3, for example, which auto-sync to your online profile when you boot them up and then unlock associated trophies that had previously been earned on that profile - but for the most part it is something you opt into. So if you want to go and Platinum the game again from scratch, you’re free to do so.

[Annoyingtiger888]

2 minutes ago, Ashande said:

 

Generally how it works is there is some form of export or import option listed on the main menu. A chunk of games require you to load up the PS4 version, hit an “export” option, then boot up the PS5 one, hit an “import” option, and you’re off to the races. Some games skip that step, just giving you the “import” option.

 

There are a few games that do so without your control - Mortal Kombat 11 and Hitman 3, for example, which auto-sync to your online profile when you boot them up and then unlock associated trophies that had previously been earned on that profile - but for the most part it is something you opt into. So if you want to go and Platinum the game again from scratch, you’re free to do so.

 

Oh, nice! Thanks for the explanation ? Hopefully Skyrim isn't one that does it without asking, though I don't think it would be.

[Jimiboss98]

On 24/01/2023 at 9:15 AM, Annoyingtiger888 said:

 

Oh, nice! Thanks for the explanation  Hopefully Skyrim isn't one that does it without asking, though I don't think it would be.

As long as you don't load any old saves and create a new one you won't auto pop.