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How do you feel about David Cage?


Dreakon13

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Wasn't sure where to post this... Consoles seemed like the most appropriate subforum.

 

Maybe it's a bit of a loaded question on a Playstation site, with his two biggest (potentially best) titles being Playstation exclusives and another seemingly on the way... but I was watching this interview between him, Ryan Payton (maker of Republique) and Yu Suzuki (of Shenmue fame)... and I wanted to strike up a conversation.

 

 

He's a polarizing guy I think, because for everyone that wants to give him a medal for releasing a game like Heavy Rain, there's someone who wants to throw him off a cliff.  People criticize him (or even attack his personality/character/life) for the fact that his games don't have a "fail-state" and that he doesn't believe in Game Over screens... where you can play Beyond Two Souls without really pressing much of anything and never die or lose really (though obviously it'll take you down different narrative paths)... which almost seem to give some truth to those that say "they aren't video games".  Of course, if you hate QTE's, you need to steer as far away from Quantic Dream titles as humanly possible.  Some say his games are pompous, and take themselves too seriously, which probably isn't an entirely false sentiment.

 

At the same time, it's refreshing that someone out there is making something different.  That they take pride in making a game the way they want to make it, do the best damn job they can on it, craft something that is obviously a labor of love... and not worry about what people think.  And actually find a certain level of success and respect (not from everyone obviously) in doing so.  In the interview he's asked if he cares about players feeling "rewarded" after "delivering the final blow" in a "hard fought battle" and he explained himself a bit but his answer was "no, not really"... which I found interesting.  That's pretty much the reason people play games.  And at the end of the day, you don't really get that feeling of being rewarded from his games... but I love them anyways.  His goal is to make you feel like you lost something when you turn the game off, which absolutely worked on me because I was downright depressed the day I beat Beyond Two Souls.

 

Anywho... your thoughts?  Is he poisoning the industry?  Do you wish he just fell off the face of the earth?  Is he deserving of any respect for his efforts over the years?  Do you not care one way or the other?

Edited by Dreakon13
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His games aren't for everyone, but even if I'm not a fan of some of them I'm glad they exist because, like you said, it's something different within an industry that has a habit of rehashing. I think it's cool that he doesn't follow the usual formula and just does his own thing. I don't know too much of his personality, but as far as his games go I don't want to throw this guy off a cliff, and I can't fully comprehend why others hold such a hate for him. That being said, Heavy Rain is one of my favorite games, and I'll continue to check out his future games despite having not liked Beyond Two Souls that much 

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I personally love his work. I like his story telling and the way his games gets you connected to the characters. It is refreshing to play something different than the usual shoot em ups or slice em ups.

 

I also like that they are new Ips. I also doubt he would ever make a game that would become a yearly release.

 

I am anxiously waiting to see what he has in store next. It will most likely be something that will push the ps4 graphically.

 

Do I want every studio and publisher to start creating the types of games he does? No. They have their place but I wouldn't want a over saturation of them on the market. The new game Life is Strange feels and plays like it could be a game from David Cage.

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He's an absolute muppet. He also apparently believes he's a good writer (he isn't). His wanting to make movies where you kind of move a character around doesn't get any cookies from me either.

 

Having said all that, I think he usually comes up with good concepts for his games. The Nomad Soul and Beyond are pretty cool ideas. Should he ever stop believing he's god's gift to gaming and get someone who actually understands the concept of gameplay to join up and offer a much-needed different perspective, QD's stuff will undoubtedly be much more enjoyable to play through.

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I haven't watched the video, only read what you've said. I also haven't played any Quantic Dream games. But with that being said I think this is still valid; whether or not people enjoy the mechanics, the way people talk about the stories he tells is that they are executed well. I am not a fan of QTEs, and I am not a fan of Visual Novels, but that sort of thing is exactly what you need to expect from a Quantic Dream game. If you don't like them, why on earth are you "playing" this game? It is pretty easy to avoid them, as there is so much info on them to suggest to you what they encompass.

 

Their games are something different from the norm. That is fine. I find it hard to believe that being different is poisonous to the industry.

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He's an absolute muppet. He also apparently believes he's a good writer (he isn't). His wanting to make movies where you kind of move a character around doesn't get any cookies from me either.

 

Having said all that, I think he usually comes up with good concepts for his games. The Nomad Soul and Beyond are pretty cool ideas. Should he ever stop believing he's god's gift to gaming and get someone who actually understands the concept of gameplay to join up and offer a much-needed different perspective, QD's stuff will undoubtedly be much more enjoyable to play through.

 

I feel like it's common that people who dislike him, generally find that he's incredibly arrogant (ie. god's gift to gaming).  If that's what he thinks he is, then i would almost have trouble wanting to see him change because I've loved almost every game Quantic has released (haven't played Omikron). xD  I can't say I've gotten that vibe but I have only seen a handful of interviews.  Are you drawing that conclusion from his games, or just his personality in articles/interviews?  Or both I suppose.  Is it because he doesn't seem interested in changing his development style based on the criticisms of people that don't like it?

 

 

I find it hard to believe that being different is poisonous to the industry.

 

That's not something in the video, I may be paraphrasing from more extreme opinions I've heard around the internet... but look at QTE's.  They started as "something different", pioneered by the likes of Mr. Suzuki in the video actually, and not only are they running rampant in games these days but there are people out there that hate them so much they refuse to touch a game that even hints at using them.  I'd wager they consider it something "poisonous".

Edited by Dreakon13
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 They started as "something different", pioneered by the likes of Mr. Suzuki in the video actually, and not only are they running rampant in games these days but there are people out there that hate them so much they refuse to touch a game that even hints at using them.

 

 

Well, I'm not saying that the QTEs themselves are unique, they've been around for a while. Just the way he goes about telling his story; mostly in regards to the lack of fail states. I guess he just wants people to enjoy the story and not have to worry about losing.

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I like Quantic Dream and David Cage and I will continue to buy their games. I think both Heavy Rain and Beyond: Two Souls were great games, despite very different from each other (which isn't a bad thing, in my opinion). Heavy Rain really put pressure on the player all the way, whereas Beyond was much more permissive. For me, it's a shame that some people didn't enjoy Beyond at all, because I liked it a lot and it totally met my expectations. I liked to meet Jodie and I could identify myself with her struggles, which I think was exactly with David Cage wanted when he wrote the story. Jodies' struggles are metaphors for the inner demons and traumas that we all have to face in life and I really think that he could deliver that well. Of course the game isn't perfect, but I enjoyed it a lot. Some say that David Cage puts too much emotion in the stories, that his stories are too melodramatic and sentimental. Maybe this is true, but I don't think this is a bad thing at all. If you just like fighting games, then you shouldn't be playing his games. For example, I don't like those pure action movies, with almost no storyline and that only figure kicks and punches and gun fights, so I don't watch them! I like stories that make me feel something, that bring me emotion and that allow me to relate with the characters, so David Cage's games are definitely for me. I'm glad that he exists in the gaming industry and I will certainly continue to buy, play and enjoy his stories.

Edited by GoldenSurprise
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Are you drawing that conclusion from his games, or just his personality in articles/interviews?

 

The latter. To me he comes across as an incredibly self-absorbed individual. Always going on and on about his "vision" for videogames, how this age is over and we must quickly move on to the next yadda yadda. Not even Shu Yoshida could take his drivel.

 

I just can't see him ever making a game I find enjoyable on his own. Gameplay makes or breaks a game and I don't think he will ever see it as more than token interaction. Just ferrying a character around isn't gameplay.

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I don't know much about David Cage except to me he came off as a movie director that made video games instead. The Fahrenheight/Indigo Prophecy tutorial gave me that impression anyway. I don't think I can hold him in such high regard as someone like Hideo Kojima though. That said, I really liked Fahrenheit/Indigo Prophecy and Heavy Rain, but I didn't find them revolutionary or anything. I skipped Beyond Two Souls since it didn't catch my attention as much as Heavy Rain did, but maybe I'll get something else down the road made by Quantum Dream.

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Just wondering, does David Cage support ISIS and hide weapons of mass destruction, because the way people are going on about him it seems like people think he does?

 

I like the stories his games tell, and despite what people think about "their lack of gameplay" the games fall under the graphic adventure genre which has been a viable and recognized genre since the early 80s. I like gameplay, but sometimes I want to be told a good story too.

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I always thought he was in the game industry because he failed in the movie industry. You can tell, by playing his games, that he wants to make a movie. But for them to be called "video games" he needed to have some gameplay. QTEs are the cheapest form of gameplay, and they can be put in without interrupting a cutscene.

That being said, I don't mind his games. I liked Heavy Rain's story, but Beyond was crap. As long as the market doesn't become over-saturated with these types of games, I'm fine with them. I don't play them anymore though, since I can just skip the gameplay and watch a play through on YouTube if they seem interesting.

I am a little worried with Telltale making these popular again. Because whenever something that's easy to make becomes popular, every indie dev around will try to make their own. Just look at the "retro" pixel graphic indie games, or the hundreds of Minecraft ripoffs. I just don't want it to get to a point where everyone forgets that the most important part of a video game is the gameplay.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Only familiar with Heavy Rain and Beyond Two Souls (just started that one) but his games definitely do feel more "adult" than most games. I mean, for example, there are 9 year olds who love games like GTA and COD; but if you handed a David Cage game to a 9 year old, they wouldn't "get it." There's a certain level of sophistication. As much as I like mindlessly violent games, I do wish there were more games like these - meaningful story, fully fleshed out characters, emotionally interesting scenarios, etc - to balance things out.

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I don't know if I'd say he's arrogant rather, opinionated with a particular, and determined, vision for gaming...nothing wrong with that.  I haven't watched/listened to everything he's done or said so maybe he does have that arrogance, but I would think someone so obviously passionate about gaming, and his ideas for giving us an experience, who has produced very good games...should be cherished rather than chastised.   Not everyone will like his vision, and that's fine, but there's room for all in the industry, and personally I enjoy the interactive novel style of gaming as much as I enjoy shooters, rpgs, hack 'n' slash, puzzle, strategy games...  

 

The thought that his games aren't real gaming experiences is bewildering to me, and we'd be as well taking a pop at the likes of TellTale and a few other devs too if that's the case...god forbid anyone is confronted with a text adventure nowadays!!  Actually, I miss the text adventure, time for a comeback me thinks, the old Artic Software text adventures, Ship of Doom, The Eye of Bain etc... be great to see these or something like them hit the PS4.

 

You don't have to like Cage, nor his ideas or creations, but a lot of people do...and for good reason.  I don't agree with everything he says, or every idea he has, but I do enjoy the focus on character heavy narratives as opposed to just shooting aliens in the head (cough* Destiny cough*) for, well, reasons?!...sometimes!  Just depends what mood we're in really.  There's times I do just want to have fun shooting stuff and other times I want to invest in a good story that doesn't require a lot from me...I simply enjoy the journey.  

 

Like I said, there's room for all styles and visions and ideas, and I like that I have the option to play games like these, regardless of what the man may or may not be like!

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 His wanting to make movies where you kind of move a character around doesn't get any cookies from me either.

I always like complaints like this one.

 

 

Would you consider Final Fantasy 6 (my favourite game of all time) to have more gameplay than Heavy Rain? In Final Fantasy 6 you literally move characters from place to place and in battles you press A (or maybe you press down to get to a different attack an then you press A).

 

How is that more of a game than Heavy Rain?

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I couldn't agree more with what Dreakon13, katniss1444, snakebit10, GoldenSurprise, RenegadeAngel-, and RedMustang72 have said... Yes, I know that's a lot of the people who have commented, but I didn't want to repeat what was already expressed in those comments, or post a giant wall of quotes, haha.

 

Personally, I admire David Cage's work. Heavy Rain and Beyond: Two Souls remain two of my fav games of the PS3 era, and they'll forever hold that place. I both love and appreciate his character-driven and emotionally fueled style of storytelling (QTEs and all). I also consider his work to be a positive element to the "games are art" argument, regardless of whether or not some people find it hard to call his projects "games" in the first place... I can't wait to see what else he has in store, and what unique elements he brings to his projects.

 

About David Cage as a person and gamemaker, he seems like a very nice guy to me, and I don't know him personally to write him off as pompous, arrogant, etc. Sure, I can see where some people are coming from when they think of him differently, but I see him as a gamemaker who has a very different idea of what games could be, and I appreciate his wishes in wanting to see people - gamers and game developers alike - acknowledge that something very different from the norm can be great, and should be seen as another valid piece of art. Industry "outsiders" such as Peter Molyneux, SUDA51, SWERY (a.k.a. Swery65), and even the great Hideo Kojima are quite similar, in that respect, just in their own, very different ways... and all of them could be seen as either great artists or high-horse targets, depending on what gamer you ask. That's one of the biggest elements that set these gamemakers apart from many others, and I quite like that about them.

Edited by mikesorge
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Way better than Hideo Kojima. 

No...just no.

 

David "more Polygons = more emotions" Cages writing is pathetic, it's a complete mess, he's not good enough for hollywood, hence why he makes video games (and I say video games loosely, whether they're actually games is debatable). If you think Kojima is a bad writer because of how shitty MGS4 was perhaps you look into the background behind it.

Edited by MrManBuz
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No...just no.

 

David "more Polygons = more emotions" Cages writing is pathetic, it's a complete mess, he's not good enough for hollywood, hence why he makes video games (and I say video games loosely, whether they're actually games is debatable). If you think Kojima is a bad writer because of how shitty MGS4 was perhaps you look into the background behind it.

Cage's writing is a complete mess...compared to Metal Gear :o. I would love to laugh at this but I think I will just post some Nanomachines :)

 

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Cage's writing is a complete mess...compared to Metal Gear :o. I would love to laugh at this but I think I will just post some Nanomachines :)

 

I agree, MGS4 is a total mess. It never should have existed. MGS2 was written so that a sequel would be impossible, MGS2 was supposed to be the last MGS game, hence why it was made the way it was. (It's also why Koji pro went to the past for MGS3 because they didn't want to make a sequel to MGS2, making a coherent follow up was impossible, as MGS4 eventually proved). It's a game Kojima never wanted to make, it's no surprise he got depressed during the games development.

 

MGS4 is bad and people who think it is good should feel bad.

Edited by MrManBuz
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