National Football League Thread

[Cassylvania]

Congrats, KC fans. That was a great game. Makes you wonder if this is the start of a new dynasty, or how many championships the Chiefs would have now if it wasn't for the Patriots.

 

Unpopular opinion time. I think quarterbacks should be disqualified from winning the MVP award in the Super Bowl. As great as Mahomes is, he did not play exceptionally well last night, throwing two interceptions (could've easily been three) and fumbling the ball multiple times. Yes, he came up clutch at the end, but I can think of at least two players on offense and one on defense that probably deserved it more. It's just too easy to credit the QB when a team wins.

 

Probably too much hate being directed at Jimmy G. I'd ask Shanahan why he was throwing the ball four times with plenty of time on the clock and three timeouts, when the 49ers were picking up 10+ yards on every run.

[acasser]

1 hour ago, Cassylvania said:

Unpopular opinion time. I think quarterbacks should be disqualified from winning the MVP award in the Super Bowl.

 

First, they should rename the award to "Most Outstanding Player".  It seems to me that it's awfully silly to have a "most valuable" player for a single game.

 

And maybe they ought to figure out a different pool of voters.  Because whatever it is they use now, there's too much of a bias towards "glory boy" positions, namely the QB.

[starcrunch061]

1 hour ago, Cassylvania said:

Yes, he came up clutch at the end, but I can think of at least two players on offense and one on defense that probably deserved it more. It's just too easy to credit the QB when a team wins.

 

Amen to that.

 

Anyway, color me surprised. I thought the Niners would win this one. I too didn't like the playcalling for the Niners late, but give it up for the Chiefs; after Mahomes threw his second interception, I thought they were done. 

 

I'm glad to see the Chiefs win it. So many years, they've had a great squad, only to let down at the end. Andy Reid has been an offensive guru throughout his years, but always let down at the end (I still can't believe he lost a home game to the Bucs in the playoffs!). But they put it together this year, and did so after a LOT of adversity. Kudos...

[skidmarkgn]

3 hours ago, acasser said:

 

Don't we make this excuse for somebody almost every season?  Only to find that it doesn't work out nearly so well?

 

I'm not sure what I'm excusing?  When I look at their young talent, you know, guys who still have a couple years before it's time to cash in, I see potential for success during that window.  There's never a guarantee they'll sustain this year's success but I know that, as a Seahawks fan, I'm not looking forward to watching Seattle have to play them twice a year.  I'm sure people will want to use the Rams as the most recent example but it seems like two completely situations to me.  L.A. is in salary cap hell with no 1st round picks to resupply, they tried to buy a championship and sacrificed the future to do it, meanwhile the 49ers rebuilt over several years then went out and acquired the remaining pieces.  Honestly the only teams in the last decade that lost the SB and decided to go live in funkytown with, at least IMO, no logical explanation are the Falcons and maaaaybe the Panthers.

[majob]

1 hour ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

Amen to that.

 

Anyway, color me surprised. I thought the Niners would win this one. I too didn't like the playcalling for the Niners late, but give it up for the Chiefs; after Mahomes threw his second interception, I thought they were done. 

 

I'm glad to see the Chiefs win it. So many years, they've had a great squad, only to let down at the end. Andy Reid has been an offensive guru throughout his years, but always let down at the end (I still can't believe he lost a home game to the Bucs in the playoffs!). But they put it together this year, and did so after a LOT of adversity. Kudos...

The second interception is honestly where the Niners blew it. They played it safe when they should have had their foot on the gas. It's the Super Bowl, playing it safe is not an option and should not be considered an option. Now Mahomes gets the ring and the niners go home cursed with the "what if" and "what could have been"

Edited February 3, 2020 by majob

[djb5f]

8 minutes ago, majob said:

The second interception is honestly where the Niners blew it. They played it safe when they should have had their foot on the gas. It's the Super Bowl, playing it safe is not an option and should not be considered an option. Now Mahomes gets the ring and the niners go home cursed with the "what if" and "what could have been"

The “what if” game works both ways.  The Niners were pretty fortunate to be in the Super Bowl.  Less than a foot away (regular season finale) from having to play Wild Card weekend and 3 games, potentially all on the road!
 

While they were a solid team, I would not have liked their odds there.  Much different than being rested and playing 2 home games.

 

 

[majob]

1 minute ago, djb5f said:

The “what if” game works both ways.  The Niners were pretty fortunate to be in the Super Bowl.  Less than a foot away (regular season finale) from having to play Wild Card weekend and 3 games, potentially all on the road!
 

While they were a solid team, I would not have liked their odds there.  Much different than being rested and playing 2 home games.

 

 

They were quite honestly in control until the fourth quarter so give them a bit more credit. Mahomes struggled throughout the entire game and had to work for every down. Though I feel it's fair to say it less the Chiefs came back and more the Niners got too comfortable

[djb5f]

1 minute ago, majob said:

They were quite honestly in control until the fourth quarter so give them a bit more credit. Mahomes struggled throughout the entire game and had to work for every down. Though I feel it's fair to say it less the Chiefs came back and more the Niners got too comfortable

Kyle Shanahan strikes again.  John Lynch did not look happy with how the end of the 1st half was (mis-)managed.

[acasser]

6 hours ago, skidmarkgn said:

 

I'm not sure what I'm excusing?  When I look at their young talent, you know, guys who still have a couple years before it's time to cash in, I see potential for success during that window.

 

It seems to me that every season, there's a team or two that gets popular in that vein.  The supposedly young team that has a really bright future ahead of htem, that catches everyone's fantasy and gets pitched as "the next big thing".  And like with teams that are the "winners" of Free Agency or the Draft, a huge percentage of them fall by the wayside.

 

One of the things NFL stands for is "Not For Long".  We've seen teams implode for little or no reason, even those teams that are supposed to be on the cusp of something wonderful.  San Francisco could be the next dynasty in waiting, or they could slip onto the other side of the knife's edge and fall into irrelevancy.  Time will tell.

[Conker]

Let’s just remember how Super Bowl losers have gone the next season , only 5 have gotten back the year they lost with only 2 winning it, so just remember that

[Zio_Sam87]

10 hours ago, djb5f said:

The “what if” game works both ways.  The Niners were pretty fortunate to be in the Super Bowl.  Less than a foot away (regular season finale) from having to play Wild Card weekend and 3 games, potentially all on the road!
 

While they were a solid team, I would not have liked their odds there.  Much different than being rested and playing 2 home games.

 

 

 

Talking about "what if"'s...  What if Miami didn't do it against NE? I have lost last 3 mins of SB due to game pass problems, but I don't get how Mahomes is MVP and defense calls themself "the best in the league" while he played bad for three and half quarter and they where trailing all postseason. Kansas City won with offense, not defense for sure.

 

10 hours ago, djb5f said:

Kyle Shanahan strikes again.  John Lynch did not look happy with how the end of the 1st half was (mis-)managed.

 

I wasn't happy too. Mahomes struggled in the first half so a conservative play there wasn't good.

 

2 hours ago, Conker said:

Let’s just remember how Super Bowl losers have gone the next season , only 5 have gotten back the year they lost with only 2 winning it, so just remember that

 

Niners got to the championship game the year after losing to Baltimore, so I'm not too worry... Yet the West is one of the better division (if not the best) so who knows

[D-Square23]

The Chiefs did it.... I wept. I got to experience it with my dad which made me doubly emotional. It was a great game. So happy for Andy Reid. So happy I finally got to see one. GGs Niners. It was hard fought

[starcrunch061]

21 hours ago, djb5f said:

Kyle Shanahan strikes again.  

 

I don't think enough people are saying this. I mean, last year many people (including me) gave Sean McVay grief because he couldn't figure out how to stop NE from stacking 8 in the box. But Shanahan's decisions blew my mind. The Chiefs simply could not stop the running game. We're talking 8-10 yard chunks here. And yet, for some reason, Shanahan moved away from it.

 

16 hours ago, acasser said:

One of the things NFL stands for is "Not For Long".  We've seen teams implode for little or no reason, even those teams that are supposed to be on the cusp of something wonderful.  San Francisco could be the next dynasty in waiting, or they could slip onto the other side of the knife's edge and fall into irrelevancy.  Time will tell.

 

In fact, one needs only look back to...San Francisco. With Harbaugh, it looked like the sky was the limit. Then, they lost to the Ravens, and the sky fell. They went to complete shambles in the proceeding years.

 

I think a lot of the time, the SB loser is a team that was just happy to be there. I think of the Bears back when Manning won his first SB. But other times, it's remarkable the complete and total fall from grace. Who talks about Cam Newton and the Panthers anymore? Or my old home state team, the Falcons? SF looks like they're built for the long haul, but one of the worst curses for a team is when a mediocre coach wins big early. It's too early to say that Shanahan is a dud, but the game on Sunday left many questions in my mind.

[skidmarkgn]

1 hour ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

I don't think enough people are saying this. I mean, last year many people (including me) gave Sean McVay grief because he couldn't figure out how to stop NE from stacking 8 in the box. But Shanahan's decisions blew my mind. The Chiefs simply could not stop the running game. We're talking 8-10 yard chunks here. And yet, for some reason, Shanahan moved away from it.

 

 

There's another way to look at this as well.  The drive after what seemed like the game winning pick is what most people are upset about, but if you look at the details then there's an argument that Shanahan actually made the right call, twice.  Kittle was WIDE open on the 2nd and 5 play but a KC defender got his hand up and deflected the pass, and the 3rd down bomb was F'd up by a Jimmy overthrow.  If KC's defense doesn't make a hell of a play or if Garapollo was more accurate Shanahan would be a "genius" 

[starcrunch061]

14 minutes ago, skidmarkgn said:

There's another way to look at this as well.  The drive after what seemed like the game winning pick is what most people are upset about, but if you look at the details then there's an argument that Shanahan actually made the right call, twice.  Kittle was WIDE open on the 2nd and 5 play but a KC defender got his hand up and deflected the pass, and the 3rd down bomb was F'd up by a Jimmy overthrow.  If KC's defense doesn't make a hell of a play or if Garapollo was more accurate Shanahan would be a "genius" 

 

I wouldn't go that far, but I agree that we probably wouldn't have this conversation.

 

But as Woody Hayes (purportedly) said, when you throw the ball, three things can happen, and two of them are bad. And for a team with the running pedigree that the Niners have, you have to believe that those two things make passing a worse alternative to running.

[ASILENTENIGMA]

On 2/3/2020 at 11:02 AM, Cassylvania said:

Congrats, KC fans. That was a great game. Makes you wonder if this is the start of a new dynasty, or how many championships the Chiefs would have now if it wasn't for the Patriots.

 

Chiefs are only missing the one potential Super Bowl from last year.  Chiefs weren't winning any Super Bowls with Alex Smith as the QB. 

 

On 2/3/2020 at 11:02 AM, Cassylvania said:

 

I can think of at least two players on offense and one on defense that probably deserved it more. It's just too easy to credit the QB when a team wins.

 

Just wondering, who are your three players?

[kidson2004]

53 minutes ago, ASILENTENIGMA said:

 

Chiefs are only missing the one potential Super Bowl from last year.  Chiefs weren't winning any Super Bowls with Alex Smith as the QB.

No they wouldn’t have with Smith: however with Mahomes, they could’ve went back-to-back. We’ll see next season. 

[Zio_Sam87]

2 hours ago, starcrunch061 said:

 

I don't think enough people are saying this. I mean, last year many people (including me) gave Sean McVay grief because he couldn't figure out how to stop NE from stacking 8 in the box. But Shanahan's decisions blew my mind. The Chiefs simply could not stop the running game. We're talking 8-10 yard chunks here. And yet, for some reason, Shanahan moved away from it.

 

I wonder if these people saw the right game... In the second half KC loaded the box and started to blitz heavily. The field goal and touchdown in the 3rd Q were made with 8 passes and 4 (short) run. Shanahan HAD to change the calls and worked well until 4th Q.

1 hour ago, ASILENTENIGMA said:

 

Just wondering, who are your three players?

 

Mines are Kelce and Mathieu, Mahomes played bad for like 50 minutes and got picked twice, no MVP material for sure.

[ASILENTENIGMA]

2 hours ago, kidson2004 said:

No they wouldn’t have with Smith: however with Mahomes, they could’ve went back-to-back. We’ll see next season. 

 

I mean they could have, maybe, won last year.  However, I don't think the odds would have been that great.  That defense last year was terrible.  They were 24th in points allowed per game and 31st in yards allowed per game.  We of course will never know, but I would not have bet on them at all winning the Super Bowl last year if they would have gotten there.

 

There's been a lot of talk in this thread about the "what if" aspect to all of this.  I think for the Chiefs a majority of their decisions would be viewed as the right ones since they won the Super Bowl.  I also realize in an 11 point victory it could have easily gone the other way.  However, Reid and GM Brett Veach definitely made the right call to shake up that defense.  Getting rid of the old DC Bob Sutton, Justin Houston, Eric Berry, and Allen Bailey.  Trading for Frank Clark, signing Mathieu, signing Breeland, hiring Spagnuolo.  With Mahomes and that offense, all they need is a middle of the road defense.  Chiefs D was 17th this year in yards per game and and 7th this year in points per game.  That is a fantastic turnaround in only one season, in my opinion.

 

2 hours ago, Zio_Sam87 said:

Mines are Kelce and Mathieu, Mahomes played bad for like 50 minutes and got picked twice, no MVP material for sure.

 

Kelce had 6 receptions for only 43 yards with one TD.  I think that would be a huge stretch to give him the MVP.

Mathieu only had 4 tackles, no sacks, no INT, no forced fumble, and no fumble recovery.  Again, I think that would be a huge stretch to give him the MVP.

 

You maybe could have made a case for someone on the defense.  SF had scored points in all 8 quarters of the Divisional and Championship rounds.  Chiefs D shut them out in the fourth quarter of the SB.  Also, Garoppolo was 3 for 11 with 36 yards, and INT, and a 2.8 rating in the 4th quarter of the SB.  Also, for all the talk of Mostert with the 220 yards and 4 TD's in the NFC Championship game, Chiefs limited him to 58 yards and 1 TD.  I do realize the 49ers moved away from the run as the game progressed.  However, there just wasn't a standout player on the Chiefs D.  Frank Clark only had 1 sack, and Breeland and Fuller only have 1 INT a piece.

 

Yes the NFL is weighted towards the QB position.  That's just the way the game is now.  That's why the last 7 league MVP's have gone to QB's.  The last non offensive player to win MVP was Lawrence Taylor back in 1986.  Since then it's been just RB's and QB's.  Mahomes didn't have his greatest game, true.  However, in the fourth quarter he was 10 for 17 for 141 yards with 2 TD's.  He still finished the game with 286 yards and two TD's.  The QB is the only position where they track how many 4th quarter or OT game winning drives they have engineered.  That's the deciding factor right there. 

 

I'm fine with Mahomes getting the MVP, that's just how the league operates.  The only person you could make a case for getting the MVP over Mahomes would be Damien Willliams, and it is an interesting argument.  For all the talk about Mostert and his 220 yards and 4 TD's against GB, he ended with 58 yards, 1 TD, and a 4.8 average.  All the buildup talked about Mostert running wild against the Chiefs.  Also, the front four of the 49ers, and really the whole defense, was going to be able to bottle up the Chiefs at will.  Williams ended with 104 yards, 1 TD, and a 6.1 average.  I don't think anyone could have seen that coming.  Like I said it's an interesting argument.

 

Sorry about the lengthy reply.

[taterman]

8 hours ago, D-Square23 said:

The Chiefs did it.... I wept. I got to experience it with my dad which made me doubly emotional. It was a great game. So happy for Andy Reid. So happy I finally got to see one. GGs Niners. It was hard fought

 

Congrats! I was super happy to see Reid win one as well. Guy deserved every bit of it.

[Zio_Sam87]

6 hours ago, ASILENTENIGMA said:

 

I mean they could have, maybe, won last year.  However, I don't think the odds would have been that great.  That defense last year was terrible.  They were 24th in points allowed per game and 31st in yards allowed per game.  We of course will never know, but I would not have bet on them at all winning the Super Bowl last year if they would have gotten there.

 

There's been a lot of talk in this thread about the "what if" aspect to all of this.  I think for the Chiefs a majority of their decisions would be viewed as the right ones since they won the Super Bowl.  I also realize in an 11 point victory it could have easily gone the other way.  However, Reid and GM Brett Veach definitely made the right call to shake up that defense.  Getting rid of the old DC Bob Sutton, Justin Houston, Eric Berry, and Allen Bailey.  Trading for Frank Clark, signing Mathieu, signing Breeland, hiring Spagnuolo.  With Mahomes and that offense, all they need is a middle of the road defense.  Chiefs D was 17th this year in yards per game and and 7th this year in points per game.  That is a fantastic turnaround in only one season, in my opinion.

 

 

Kelce had 6 receptions for only 43 yards with one TD.  I think that would be a huge stretch to give him the MVP.

Mathieu only had 4 tackles, no sacks, no INT, no forced fumble, and no fumble recovery.  Again, I think that would be a huge stretch to give him the MVP.

 

You maybe could have made a case for someone on the defense.  SF had scored points in all 8 quarters of the Divisional and Championship rounds.  Chiefs D shut them out in the fourth quarter of the SB.  Also, Garoppolo was 3 for 11 with 36 yards, and INT, and a 2.8 rating in the 4th quarter of the SB.  Also, for all the talk of Mostert with the 220 yards and 4 TD's in the NFC Championship game, Chiefs limited him to 58 yards and 1 TD.  I do realize the 49ers moved away from the run as the game progressed.  However, there just wasn't a standout player on the Chiefs D.  Frank Clark only had 1 sack, and Breeland and Fuller only have 1 INT a piece.

 

Yes the NFL is weighted towards the QB position.  That's just the way the game is now.  That's why the last 7 league MVP's have gone to QB's.  The last non offensive player to win MVP was Lawrence Taylor back in 1986.  Since then it's been just RB's and QB's.  Mahomes didn't have his greatest game, true.  However, in the fourth quarter he was 10 for 17 for 141 yards with 2 TD's.  He still finished the game with 286 yards and two TD's.  The QB is the only position where they track how many 4th quarter or OT game winning drives they have engineered.  That's the deciding factor right there. 

 

I'm fine with Mahomes getting the MVP, that's just how the league operates.  The only person you could make a case for getting the MVP over Mahomes would be Damien Willliams, and it is an interesting argument.  For all the talk about Mostert and his 220 yards and 4 TD's against GB, he ended with 58 yards, 1 TD, and a 4.8 average.  All the buildup talked about Mostert running wild against the Chiefs.  Also, the front four of the 49ers, and really the whole defense, was going to be able to bottle up the Chiefs at will.  Williams ended with 104 yards, 1 TD, and a 6.1 average.  I don't think anyone could have seen that coming.  Like I said it's an interesting argument.

 

Sorry about the lengthy reply.

 

While your arguments are good, I feel that sometimes stats aren't all. Take Kittle as example: he did "nothing" as receptions and yards on all postseason, but he is undoubtly one of the reason niners run is so good. So yeah, Kelce had "only" 43 yards, but he was a threat to give attention all the game. As for Mahomes, again he may had the best 5 minutes of his career, but I can't give an MVP for 5 out of 60 minutes of game, not to him, not to anybody.

I admit I named those two 'cause I don't know every KC player, so after reading you Williams could have been a better choice.

[ASILENTENIGMA]

1 hour ago, Zio_Sam87 said:

 

I feel that sometimes stats aren't all. Take Kittle as example: he did "nothing" as receptions and yards on all postseason, but he is undoubtly one of the reason niners run is so good. So yeah, Kelce had "only" 43 yards, but he was a threat to give attention all the game.

 

Intangibles are definitely a huge part of any sport.  Kittle was absolutely vital to the 49ers post season run.  Kelce always demands attention.  So does Hill and Watkins for the Chiefs, and increasingly, Damien Williams.  However, at the end of the contest a player needs the actual statistics of performance from the game in order to determine which player gets those types of awards.  

 

2 hours ago, Zio_Sam87 said:

 

As for Mahomes, again he may had the best 5 minutes of his career, but I can't give an MVP for 5 out of 60 minutes of game, not to him, not to anybody.

 

The most recent example that is the closest, I feel, is the Super Bowl before this recent one.  Julian Edelman won the SB MVP in LIII.  Brady had 262 yards, no TD's, and 1 INT.  Certainly not his best game, just like with Mahomes.  Edelman had 10 receptions, 141 yards, and no TD's.  To me, that stands out  more than Brady's game.  I can understand Edelman getting it.  With regards to Mahomes, no one was able to clearly overshadow his stats in the end.  Damien Williams was close.  If he would have had 150 yards rushing, with that 6.1 average, and had another rushing TD, I think he would have been a lock for the SB MVP.  He had a great game, but it just wasn't enough to get that award.  Like I said, not with how the league is weighted towards QB's.  No one on the Chiefs D could get it, because no one had a monster game.  It had to be on offense.  No one on offense had a truly clear cut dominate game.  Therefore, the voters went where they always do in the modern NFL, and went with the QB.  At least that's my take.

 

I'm not trying to convince you or change your opinion.  I'm just sharing my thoughts on the matter.  I just like talking football.  It's always a long time this time of year until camps start back up in August.  And no, I'm not really looking forward to the XFL, lol.

[PerryToxteth]

18 hours ago, Zio_Sam87 said:

 

While your arguments are good, I feel that sometimes stats aren't all. Take Kittle as example: he did "nothing" as receptions and yards on all postseason, but he is undoubtly one of the reason niners run is so good. So yeah, Kelce had "only" 43 yards, but he was a threat to give attention all the game. As for Mahomes, again he may had the best 5 minutes of his career, but I can't give an MVP for 5 out of 60 minutes of game, not to him, not to anybody.

I admit I named those two 'cause I don't know every KC player, so after reading you Williams could have been a better choice.

 

Mahomes might have played great for only 5 minutes out of 60, but they were the most important five minutes of the game. Chiefs were down, they needed a TD, and he delivered with the game-winning drive by going 5/5 for 60-odd yards and A TD pass. When the game was on the line, he delivered. More players than not wilt under that pressure; Mahomes instead, won his team the game. As an example of the pressure faced in that spot, Jimmy G had the same opportunity with the next drive, and he failed miserably.

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by PerryToxteth

[Zio_Sam87]

21 hours ago, ASILENTENIGMA said:

 

Intangibles are definitely a huge part of any sport.  Kittle was absolutely vital to the 49ers post season run.  Kelce always demands attention.  So does Hill and Watkins for the Chiefs, and increasingly, Damien Williams.  However, at the end of the contest a player needs the actual statistics of performance from the game in order to determine which player gets those types of awards.  

 

 

The most recent example that is the closest, I feel, is the Super Bowl before this recent one.  Julian Edelman won the SB MVP in LIII.  Brady had 262 yards, no TD's, and 1 INT.  Certainly not his best game, just like with Mahomes.  Edelman had 10 receptions, 141 yards, and no TD's.  To me, that stands out  more than Brady's game.  I can understand Edelman getting it.  With regards to Mahomes, no one was able to clearly overshadow his stats in the end.  Damien Williams was close.  If he would have had 150 yards rushing, with that 6.1 average, and had another rushing TD, I think he would have been a lock for the SB MVP.  He had a great game, but it just wasn't enough to get that award.  Like I said, not with how the league is weighted towards QB's.  No one on the Chiefs D could get it, because no one had a monster game.  It had to be on offense.  No one on offense had a truly clear cut dominate game.  Therefore, the voters went where they always do in the modern NFL, and went with the QB.  At least that's my take.

 

I'm not trying to convince you or change your opinion.  I'm just sharing my thoughts on the matter.  I just like talking football.  It's always a long time this time of year until camps start back up in August.  And no, I'm not really looking forward to the XFL, lol.

 

I like talking too... It's just that I like the statistics to determine who is best in a season-long reward like the regular MVP, while in a single game might be too "unfair".

 

5 hours ago, PerryToxteth said:

 

Mahomes might have played great for only 5 minutes out of 60, but they were the most important five minutes of the game. Chiefs were down, they needed a TD, and he delivered with the game-winning drive by going 5/5 for 60-odd yards and A TD pass.

 

That's no doubt that Mahomes did better than Garoppolo in the final, but again, I don't think it's good to let a (very) little portion of a game been enough to give such a reward.

 

5 hours ago, PerryToxteth said:

 

When the game was on the line, he delivered. More players than not wilt under that pressure; Mahomes instead, won his team the game. As an example of the pressure faced in that spot, Jimmy G had the same opportunity with the next drive, and he failed miserably.

 

This is why I don't think it's (all) Shanahan's fault. He mismanaged the end of the first half for sure, but then was the players not delivering. The defense did only 2 mistakes the entire game, and costed 14 points. Garoppolo didn't see Kittle wide open in the middle, and then missed Sanders in a could-be TD, can't blame the coach for this.

[Zio_Sam87]

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