merciful84 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) Seriously you guys? Do you know how hard it would be to simulate the Cell processor and it's SPU's on a PS4? Likely impossible. 360's architecture was much more simpler. So basically, you're saying: Microsoft console architecture > Sony console architecture If everyone is to believe what you're saying then you're essentially saying this ^ . So, why would new console gamers who may want to play previously gen games buy a PS4? Why would those who owned multiple consoles last gen with backlogs now choose to buy a PS4? Both groups would have to shell out more money to get the same experience as a Sony customer than a Microsoft and even Nintendo customer. Microsoft is Sony's biggest threat in the console market and right now they have proven to be as equally as powerful yet more flexible, more cost effective, and more consumer friendly. And let's not forget that both are competing against the PC market. PC gamers don't have to worry about things such as backwards compatibility...just hardware upgrades to meet new spec requirements. The more Sony does the things that they are doing at the moment, the more PC gaming is looking more attractive...at least to me it is. Edited June 18, 2015 by merciful84 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegirlruka Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Seriously you guys? Do you know how hard it would be to simulate the Cell processor and it's SPU's on a PS4? Likely impossible. 360's architecture was much more simpler. This is pretty much the reason that they can't do it. The PS3 was more of a challenge to develop for than the 360 was. It's because of this that it's much, much easier to allow 360 games to be played the Xbox 3. It's also the reason why games were more likely to have bugs on the PS3 version than the 360 version when they were released on both consoles. For an example, look at Skyrim. Both versions had bugs, but the ones on the PS3 were more prominent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Sly Ripper Posted June 18, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted June 18, 2015 Seriously you guys? Do you know how hard it would be to simulate the Cell processor and it's SPU's on a PS4? Likely impossible. 360's architecture was much more simpler. So basically, you're saying: Microsoft console architecture > Sony console architecture If everyone is to believe what you're saying then you're essentially saying this ^ . So, why would new console gamers who may want to play previously gen games buy a PS4? Why would those who owned multiple consoles last gen with backlogs now choose to buy a PS4? Both groups would have to shell out more money to get the same experience as a Sony customer than a Microsoft and even Nintendo customer. Microsoft is Sony's biggest threat in the console market and right now they have proven to be as equally as powerful yet more flexible, more cost effective, and more consumer friendly. And let's not forget that both are competing against the PC market. PC gamers don't have to worry about things such as backwards compatibility...just hardware upgrades to meet new spec requirements. The more Sony does the things that they are doing at the moment, the more PC gaming is looking more attractive...at least to me it is. He's saying that 360 is easier to emulate. 360 is left, ps3 is right. PSNow is the best we'll get, though 360 BC should push Sony to make it more cost effective/free for games we already own. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superbuu3 Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) BTW my comments are in regards to people's attitudes and not the practicality of if its doable (we certainly know PS1 and PS2 BC are certainly possible though) I'm not. Flood away! I've got friends and family who never got PS3s but now have PS4s. I want them to experience these titles. I also don't believe that it takes a whole studio to port a PS3 game to PS4. Porting programmers aren't production programmers. I don't for a second believe that porting a PS3 game eliminates any production of a new PS4 title. BC would allow access to all PS3 titles, not just access to titles sony and various other publishers deem are worthy of replaying. BC would let your friends have a chance to play them without a PS3, also what about the wealth of PSN titles? I see no sign of any japanese remasters as yet for starters, so basically a whole wealth of games that are ps3 exclusive will just never be played by your friends. Until everyone has fibre optic connections PS Now will always be an inferior experience to playing the game locally. Also what happens if sony deem PS Now unprofitable and pull the plug? I have no issues with digital games, there's a level of risk you know going into, but relying on a digital service for BC rather than having the hardware accessible. Also the average person does not have space to hook 3 consoles up one tv (PS2, PS3 and PS3). Its a shame we live in a world where the average gamer can't see beyond the scope of their own tv. I'll be honest I rarely play old games apart from a niche few, but I think MS are looking more for the gamers than sony at the moment. Edited June 18, 2015 by Superbuu3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
x9zachattack5x Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) How Sony could respond is letting all digital purchases on the ps3 be free to play via PS Now if backwards compatibility is so hard to do. Edit: No, screw PS Now and the constant streaming. Just transfer all of our purchases to the PS4 library. Or will that mess with the fragile architecture? Edited June 18, 2015 by x9zachattack5x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
merciful84 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) He's saying that 360 is easier to emulate. 360 is left, ps3 is right. PSNow is the best we'll get, though 360 BC should push Sony to make it more cost effective/free for games we already own. Right so: Microsoft console architecture > Sony console architecture. Its the best we get if Sony absolutely refuses to come up with better alternatives. Every console generation, everyone releases updated models of their consoles. Native BC can always be added that way... BTW my comments are in regards to people's attitudes and not the practicality of if its doable (we certainly know PS1 and PS2 BC are certainly possible though) BC would allow access to all PS3 titles, not just access to titles sony and various other publishers deem are worthy of replaying. BC would let your friends have a chance to play them without a PS3, also what about the wealth of PSN titles? I see no sign of any japanese remasters as yet for starters, so basically a whole wealth of games that are ps3 exclusive will just never be played by your friends. Until everyone has fibre optic connections PS Now will always be an inferior experience to playing the game locally. Also what happens if sony deem PS Now unprofitable and pull the plug? I have no issues with digital games, there's a level of risk you know going into, but relying on a digital service for BC rather than having the hardware accessible. Also the average person does not have space to hook 3 consoles up one tv (PS2, PS3 and PS3). Its a shame we live in a world where the average gamer can't see beyond the scope of their own tv. I'll be honest I rarely play old games apart from a niche few, but I think MS are looking more for the gamers than sony at the moment. By George, someone else seems to have gotten it! Edited June 18, 2015 by merciful84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brawler Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 It's cool they offered props like this. With a lot of the fans would do the same. There are some out there trying to downplay it with all their might. I am not shocked Sony doesn't want to do it. They'll continue with PS now and improve that as time goes on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damon8r351 Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Besides, I remember this being addressed in the months leading up to the PS4's release, that the PS4's architecture was too different from the PS3 to allow for eventual backwards compatibility and that they were instead investing effort into giving similar capability through their acquisition of Gaikai, which is what PS Now was developed from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegirlruka Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 How Sony could respond is letting all digital purchases on the ps3 be free to play via PS Now if backwards compatibility is so hard to do. Edit: No, screw PS Now and the constant streaming. Just transfer all of our purchases to the PS4 library. Or will that mess with the fragile architecture? Hopefully this little incident convinces Sony to include PS Now in the price of PS+. That would be pretty awesome IMO. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I'm not. Flood away! I've got friends and family who never got PS3s but now have PS4s. I want them to experience these titles. I also don't believe that it takes a whole studio to port a PS3 game to PS4. Porting programmers aren't production programmers. I don't for a second believe that porting a PS3 game eliminates any production of a new PS4 title. Add backwards compatability and your friends and family can all enjoy these titles instantly and at a cheaper price. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilumixZ Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Good, i'd rather it just stays as it is, especially when you look at future games coming to ps4 i couldn't care less about backwards compatibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomato Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Yea I am sure they would completely shut down their millions of dollars investment on ps now servers....people also need to realize do you really think they invested ps now just for backwards compatability? Its quite obvious the next generation of consoles will be digital only, it has too many pros, they basically just waiting for the west internet to get asian tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkthur Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 BC is not gonna happen, SONY isn't going to shoot his service so soon after release. They'll push PSNow as long as they can, if at long term is does not prove profitable, they might look into the BC business, but don't expect those changes to come this year or the next. In my opinion, they should make PSNow more accesible and thats all, maybe reduce prices, include some deals and that kind of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post DaivRules Posted June 18, 2015 Popular Post Share Posted June 18, 2015 BTW my comments are in regards to people's attitudes and not the practicality of if its doable (we certainly know PS1 and PS2 BC are certainly possible though) BC would allow access to all PS3 titles, not just access to titles sony and various other publishers deem are worthy of replaying. Except you're not really comparing Microsoft's planned BC. They already said their BC is 100% dependent on the developer allowing it. Xbones are only allowed access to titles "various other publishers deem are worthy." I have a PS2 in the drawer below my TV. When I want to play it, I plug it in the wall and the TV and disconnect it when I finish playing whatever title weeks later. I don't need every console I ever want to play all hooked up at the same time, all the time, forever. My attitude is this: Sony is going to do what Sony wants to do (obvious to me, maybe not to others.) BC would be cool if it were PS2/PS1 style BC. All PS1 played on PS2. In current reality, I have the technical knowledge and business knowledge to know, for certain, that BC has such high hurdles both in terms of cost and possibility, it might as well be impossible. It's not like creating a media player for the PS4. It's not even as simple as creating a new game (and those take years, start to finish). It's more complicated than many of you are making it out to be. It's not even about Sony making more money. Sony still sells PS3's and if you're whining about BC, odds are you already own a bunch of titles. So those screaming for BC are screaming for convenience. It's probably easier for Sony to shrink down the PS3 CPU (which has 7 PPC cores, each programmed with their own, dedicated processing for particular code) and create a new PS4 with the PS3 CPU included, next to an also-shrunken PS4 CPU, which is 2 x86 cores with multiple threads that try to do all the code at one time. The PS4 CPU would barf at any PS3 CPU code instantly. They're not compatible, not even a little, not at all. However, what I'm proposing is no longer really BC, it's two consoles in one. Semantics for sure, but whatever. I would absolutely think it would be awesome to buy a special edition PS4 with PS3 compatibility for an extra $100 or so, but any PS3 titles coming out in the future have been in the making for a while. Developers saw the PS4 was x86 and jumped at code which was more familiar, which is why we see so many "indies" coming out so quickly for PS4 that didn't come out for PS3. I would have more sympathy for people who think Sony is withholding BC for the moniez!!1!! or whatever if Sony wasn't still actively manufacturing and selling new PS3 consoles and games. However, those people have so over-simplified the issue they aren't even logically considering it in it's entirety. And you can't use logic to argue against a position that wasn't arrived at logically to begin with. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superbuu3 Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) EDIT 2: I just realised I'm in a discussion with people saying we don't need BC so it just shouldn't happen. I don't see how BC can have any negative impact on anyone, yet I might add people seem to be super passionate about not having it lol. I don't need it, but its nice for people to have the option and it certainly is convenient. Except you're not really comparing Microsoft's planned BC. They already said their BC is 100% dependent on the developer allowing it. Xbones are only allowed access to titles "various other publishers deem are worthy." Uh, it certainly would give us access to more titles. I can't but see help how your comment seems aimed at me in particular. You just stated you wanted your friends to play games, but now it seems like you've got a setup so whatever sony does is ok they are a business. Please don't tell me you are thinking of others then state a bunch of things where you aren't thinking about others, it makes me feel like a discussion is pointless. Sony have the tech for PS1 and PS2 BC compatability it was done on the 80GB PS3. So you can't really act like that part isn't completely possible. In fact even the Vita has compatability with the PS1, so even if I take this to just that, why can't we have PS1 games on PS4? Also i'm glad you solved your furniture problems, having a drawer for your PS2, is definitely something that concerns the gaming community and our needs for BC and also your friends obviously. That last sentence is to highlight the fact you're doing exactly what I said, ignoring everyone and just thinking about yourself, there's no place for that when we're discussing issues that effect the gaming community as a whole and before you tell me BC is not a big deal its obvious it is, otherwise so many people wouldn't be talking about it. EDIT: Also if you noticed my earlier comments pointed out how I had little interest in BC for PS3. So its not like your discussing this with someone who is in a position this effects much, i would like a better business practice from Sony, they say they are for the gamers after all. Edited June 18, 2015 by Superbuu3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaivRules Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 effect (sic) the gaming community as a whole The gaming community is not a whole *anything* and everyone in it is only out for what they want. I didn't even realize the PS4 doesn't play PS1 titles, and assumed it did since the PS2 and PS3 both played PS1. That's my fault for not knowing that's what you have been referring to. The PS3 had PS2 emulation for roughly 80% of PS2 titles, but the chips and processors involved then were magnitudes more simple than the PS3 and even then, people clamored for cheaper PS3's so Sony dropped BC and started selling a bunch more PS3's. I like the idea of BC. I think it's cool when it works correctly. I was trying to address points you made, which I now realize you weren't looking to have to respond, just say things for the heck if it. I was also trying to give some perspective for others. Now that I know the only reason people want BC is because they want the option and I shouldn't respond any more, I won't. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichiban-Hybrid Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I dont see the point of this. The ps3 had the BC but it was removed afterwards. Im alright for the PS4 if it has the BC or not.. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superbuu3 Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 The gaming community is not a whole *anything* and everyone in it is only out for what they want. I didn't even realize the PS4 doesn't play PS1 titles, and assumed it did since the PS2 and PS3 both played PS1. That's my fault for not knowing that's what you have been referring to. The PS3 had PS2 emulation for roughly 80% of PS2 titles, but the chips and processors involved then were magnitudes more simple than the PS3 and even then, people clamored for cheaper PS3's so Sony dropped BC and started selling a bunch more PS3's. I like the idea of BC. I think it's cool when it works correctly. I was trying to address points you made, which I now realize you weren't looking to have to respond, just say things for the heck if it. I was also trying to give some perspective for others. Now that I know the only reason people want BC is because they want the option and I shouldn't respond any more, I won't. I'm not quite sure what you mean btw the gaming community isn't a whole. My point was how BBC is handled and if we will have access to digital content after a console generation. I'm not sure if you considered this, but if BC is not a thing. Then when the PSN servers on PS3 are closed down those games are gone for good. If PS4 can't emulate PS3 but PS5 or even 6 can, they will have a reason to keep those games up on digital stores (which i think would be great). So thats what I'm talking about when I say the it effects everyone and even the future of how things are handled. 80gb PS3 was completely software emulation for PS2. I'm not sure if you were saying the PS3 had Ps2 parts or you were talking about the PS4 emulating PS3. Like i mentioned if they can't do it, then fair enough. But there's no excuse for PS2. I apologise if I came off rude, but I was trying to clarify you can dismiss some of the comments I said as well that might bother you and this works for me etc., but i'm not even taking a stance where it effects me. I'd rather PSN turn into a platform like Steam where we have access to our libraries permenantly (i hate repeating myself but obviously i understand PS3 titles might not work like this) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neputyunu Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 (edited) Right so: Microsoft console architecture > Sony console architecture. Its the best we get if Sony absolutely refuses to come up with better alternatives. Every console generation, everyone releases updated models of their consoles. Native BC can always be added that way... Depends on the way you are looking at it... Intel Core i7-4790K "Devil's Canyon" is probably currently the most strongest consumer-processor... ~96 - ~107 GFLOPS. (AMD FX-9590 would maybe fuck it - also your electricity bill -, when not everything would be intel-optimized.) What does GFLOPS mean? In computing, FLOPS or flops (an acronym for FLoating-point Operations Per Second) is a measure of computer performance, Means it is currently technical nearly impossible to provide native bc. Have you never wondered, why there is no PS3-emulation on PC? Now you know why. Maybe also interesting: The US-Airforce build a supercomputer out of 1760 PS3s. (Maybe you remember, the first generation had Linux-support.) Edited June 18, 2015 by Neputyunu 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullstomp Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I have nothing but love for Sony, but they definitely don't always make the right call when it comes to technology. For years they insisted crap-@$$ "six axis" controller was the future and flat out refused to bring dual shock to the PS3 (to their credit, they relented eventually). Then there was the release of Move after the whole motion controller fad died. Before that, the release of the PSP Go that didn't play UMDs. I personally believe their lack of first party support of the PS Vita is a mistake. I think BC makes sense but its a toss up if Sony decides to do this. I really hope Microsoft sees great success with this initiative so Sony can understand this feature will only help them in the long run. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaivRules Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 80gb PS3 was completely software emulation for PS2. I'm not sure if you were saying the PS3 had Ps2 parts or you were talking about the PS4 emulating PS3. Like i mentioned if they can't do it, then fair enough. But there's no excuse for PS2. I'll just stick to facts to avoid arguments. Sony's original 60 gig PS3 had the emotion engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Emotion_Engine) chip on the motherboard. This gave near 100% PS2 compatibility because it was the actual CPU from a PS2. The 20 gig and initial 80 gig both used software emulation to achieve ~80% compatibility. This was dropped when the 2nd version of the 80 gig model was released. PS1 emulation has always been 100% software on PS3's. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MesopithecusUK Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I'd rather wait to see what Microsoft comes up with in terms of backwards compatibility before jumping on the "why doesn't the PS4 have this" bandwagon. There are not many titles at the moment that are backwards compatible on the Xbox One and it does raise the whole DRM issue again. It wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft backtracked to their original concept of no used games on the Xbox One, using backwards compatibility as the foundation for this. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superbuu3 Posted June 18, 2015 Author Share Posted June 18, 2015 I'll just stick to facts to avoid arguments. Sony's original 60 gig PS3 had the emotion engine (https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Emotion_Engine) chip on the motherboard. This gave near 100% PS2 compatibility because it was the actual CPU from a PS2. The 20 gig and initial 80 gig both used software emulation to achieve ~80% compatibility. This was dropped when the 2nd version of the 80 gig model was released. PS1 emulation has always been 100% software on PS3's. Thats honestly what bugs me, as you said earlier its not like xbone will have 100% BC and there will be exceptions that won't be allowed, but we know for a fact at least some BC options sony already has the tech available for and they are just choosing not to use it. Something is better than nothing so even if we only got like a hundred titles working I'd still think that was a step in the right direction. Also if they did that then i'd be able to believe that emulation for PS1 and PS2 were that difficult even at this point. I'd rather wait to see what Microsoft comes up with in terms of backwards compatibility before jumping on the "why doesn't the PS4 have this" bandwagon. There are not many titles at the moment that are backwards compatible on the Xbox One and it does raise the whole DRM issue again. It wouldn't surprise me if Microsoft backtracked to their original concept of no used games on the Xbox One, using backwards compatibility as the foundation for this. True, but they're at least trying. Also keep in mind the topic only went that way when people said it outright shouldn't have any form of BC, which like i stated elsewhere makes zero sense to actively not want it, as it doesn't harm anyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kulzyc Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 Why would you play PS3 games on PS4? Like seriously what's the point? Isn't why you have PS3 for? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undead Wolf Posted June 18, 2015 Share Posted June 18, 2015 I would love it if Sony made the PS4 backwards compatible with PS3 games but I know that it would be extremely difficult or even impossible considering how complicated the PS3 architecture is. Luckily, I still have my PS3 so it's not the end of the world for me if it doesn't happen but it would still be nice not to have to hook up my PS3 every time I want to play a game on there. Something that isn't out of the question though is being able to play PS1 and PS2 games. I'm kind of shocked that they aren't available yet as Sony has a ton of classics which I'm sure a lot of us would love to play on the PS4 as it could have benefits over the emulator on PS3. I remember hearing rumours a while ago that they were looking into PS1/PS2 emulation in 1080p on PS4, maybe that's why it's taking so long. I think that PlayStations history is a major plus over Xbox, a lot of us grew up playing old PlayStation games and if they opened that up to PS4 gamers, I think it would be a huge win for them. Maybe that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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