The WWE Discussion Thread

[Infected Elite]

3 minutes ago, Rozalia1 said:

 

Calm yourself please. No need to take me responding to something personally or whatever.

 

If you're restricting it to that level then it is pointless. Everyone is a random signing to someone who consumes zero wrestling news and may now and then watch a show. MJF was the hottest free agent when he got freed up.

 

People say it is a combination of him and Raquel, who also replaced a more popular former champion. As for Finn, he has more of an edge now I guess but if you're assuming I'm a fan then you're way off. Back when he was first in NXT and then on the main roster I was baffled on why they were keeping Cody, someone who was better than Finn in every respect bar I suppose execution of moves, as a jobber, while pushing Finn. Someone who could seemingly only wrestle one match, was dull, and couldn't even use his paint gimmick effectively.

hottest free agent according to who? lmfao.

 

Only reason Io had the title was to push the pandemic era with a asian person as champion. 

[Rozalia1]

1 minute ago, Infected Elite said:

hottest free agent according to who? lmfao.

 

Only reason Io had the title was to push the pandemic era with a asian person as champion. 

 

MJF was receiving heavy praise from wrestlers, wrestling commentators some of which are legends like Jim Cornette, and every company worth anything wanted him to sign with them. 

 

Io consistently would get NXT the highest ratings of the match for her segments and she is considered an elite talent. To state that she only got the title because she is an Asian woman is off. Maybe AEW is colouring your mind there I don't know.

[Infected Elite]

1 hour ago, Rozalia1 said:

 

MJF was receiving heavy praise from wrestlers, wrestling commentators some of which are legends like Jim Cornette, and every company worth anything wanted him to sign with them. 

 

Io consistently would get NXT the highest ratings of the match for her segments and she is considered an elite talent. To state that she only got the title because she is an Asian woman is off. Maybe AEW is colouring your mind there I don't know.

 

my god, you're as bad as AJ.

[sk_lp_him]

NXT has gotten quite dull and boring in the past few years, even more so in the covid era. Kross is very boring too, he is just one entrance and his girlfriend steals the attention. I think he would be perfect for the main roster until the old senile fool loses interest in him after a few weeks.

[Rozalia1]

4 hours ago, sk_lp_him said:

NXT has gotten quite dull and boring in the past few years, even more so in the covid era. Kross is very boring too, he is just one entrance and his girlfriend steals the attention. I think he would be perfect for the main roster until the old senile fool loses interest in him after a few weeks.

 

NXT began to get dull to me the moment they brought in all the top indy guys and made them unquestionably the top of the card. NXT when it became noticed and popular had guys like Tyler Breeze and Tyson Kidd at the top of the card. 

 

Hard to say. Vince actually tends to back people who don't well in NXT, some people think out of spite, such as Elias who when healthy is on the show week after week often not even wrestling. Kross was made NXT champion though so that may disqualify him from Vince caring to show up HHH. 

[sk_lp_him]

Hell in a cell was just like a longer raw. The usual Bliss stupidity, idiotic dq finish and roll-ups.

[SelectiveGamer]

lol

 

Superhero Nikki Cross is probably the best WWE thing right now.

 

It's a nice callback to The Hurricane and Molly Holly's superhero persona and I honestly love it.

[Infected Elite]

So if Breeze just got released, is that the end of UUDD Uno and Battle of the Brands? i would hope Creed has more power of his youtube than that. Vince is stupid. 

 

Even Kross on Main Event with that budget entrance, no Scarlett.  Vince sucks.

 

 

[Rozalia1]

More releases. The saddest is Tyler Breeze who clearly had given up some time ago and had resigned himself to collecting his pay while hanging out with his friends. Back when NXT was at it's best before the overloading of it with big Indy guys Tyler Breeze was a big highlight of the show. PAC was champion in that period as a face as this was before he went heel and improved himself big time on the character front so it was up to his heel challengers to add some interest to the proceedings which Breeze (and Kidd, great stuff from him too) did. Then they brought in Kenta, a terribly boring guy in NXT who Breeze jobbed out to. Then Finn came in, another boring one (improved since then sure, death at the time), Breeze had put him over too. The message during that period, which Vince would have been outraged about if you know, he cared to know, was that "WWE guys" were nothing compared to whoever HHH was a fan of on the Indies.

 

It is why I'm not a fan of this idea that HHH will be a saviour of WWE when Vince dies. His takeover of NXT made it dull and hurt WWE's production of talent as how can people in the performance centre develop fully if you got all these guys, already with experience, hogging all the time. Shane, who Dunn and the rest of Vince's people (all gone if HHH takes over) support is the superior choice. 

 

11 hours ago, Infected Elite said:

Even Kross on Main Event with that budget entrance, no Scarlett.  Vince sucks.

 

Word is Kross was there as Vince wanted to have a look at him. Vince could do that on NXT or just you know, watch whatever Kross has done in NXT or elsewhere on a television... but Vince is very into seeing people in person I guess which explains why NXT guys are usually just instantly screwed when they go up to the main roster. Vince has never seen them before in his life. Scarlett not being there might be a HHH thing as he'll know Vince would love Scarlett and then want them called up instantly.

[skidmarkgn]

11 hours ago, Rozalia1 said:

 The message during that period, which Vince would have been outraged about if you know, he cared to know, was that "WWE guys" were nothing compared to whoever HHH was a fan of on the Indies.

 

 

I remember those days.  I also remembering thinking the message was "talent is talent, time to push guys who deserve it, period".  It finally meant that we didn't all have to suffer through Vince's 6'5" 270lb obsession and giving guys like Finn (who's debut I remember very different than you) a chance at the spotlight.  Not saying there weren't examples of it already, Seth Rollins, Daniel Bryan and CM Punk had already started to force the small indy guy narrative but Vince was still extremely resistant to it (he had to be dragged kicking and screaming into accepting Bryan was the top guy and put him over at WM 30 instead of forcing more Batista on us) but the cases were rare and usually had to be forced by the crowds.  NXT was the place to finally see guys getting shots based on talent and charisma instead of look and nepotism.  

[Rozalia1]

10 hours ago, skidmarkgn said:

 

I remember those days.  I also remembering thinking the message was "talent is talent, time to push guys who deserve it, period".  It finally meant that we didn't all have to suffer through Vince's 6'5" 270lb obsession and giving guys like Finn (who's debut I remember very different than you) a chance at the spotlight.  Not saying there weren't examples of it already, Seth Rollins, Daniel Bryan and CM Punk had already started to force the small indy guy narrative but Vince was still extremely resistant to it (he had to be dragged kicking and screaming into accepting Bryan was the top guy and put him over at WM 30 instead of forcing more Batista on us) but the cases were rare and usually had to be forced by the crowds.  NXT was the place to finally see guys getting shots based on talent and charisma instead of look and nepotism.  

 

Except the guys who suffered weren't 6'5" 270lb guys. It was largely WWE guys on the smaller end. Guys who put in hard work and had charisma (Kenta and Balor at that time had none, they were dull babyfaces with no promo ability getting put over charismatic heels like Breeze and Kidd). Indy guys just started getting hired big time and WWE guys had to put them over like losers until eventually they basically just were removed near entirely from the promotion. I also feel that those that did get sent to Vince around that period in no way were backed by HHH either which is why they were all pretty much buried into oblivion (Why would Vince book NXT's losers strong?), and this was before Vince started backing WWE guys who had been in NXT to spite HHH which is seen by some as to why Baron Corbin and Elias get so heavily featured. 

[sk_lp_him]

That Edge promo was so cringe, it ruined all good impression from the segment. The old fool overscripting things made Edge look really stupid.

[buckallmighty]

I cant wait till they start having a crowd again.. Thunderdome has worn out its welcome for me. The crowd never argues with each other anymore it all just sounds like pre recorded cheers or boos.

[skidmarkgn]

9 hours ago, Rozalia1 said:

 

Except the guys who suffered weren't 6'5" 270lb guys. It was largely WWE guys on the smaller end. Guys who put in hard work and had charisma (Kenta and Balor at that time had none, they were dull babyfaces with no promo ability getting put over charismatic heels like Breeze and Kidd). Indy guys just started getting hired big time and WWE guys had to put them over like losers until eventually they basically just were removed near entirely from the promotion. I also feel that those that did get sent to Vince around that period in no way were backed by HHH either which is why they were all pretty much buried into oblivion (Why would Vince book NXT's losers strong?), and this was before Vince started backing WWE guys who had been in NXT to spite HHH which is seen by some as to why Baron Corbin and Elias get so heavily featured. 

 

You keep using Finn as your example of when things went wrong, I get that you personal opinion of him is apparently low but when he debuted on NXT he over as hell, people knew him from his bullet club time and the talk of him doing a body paint entrance in WWE was everywhere, his first couple/few demon matches were also extremely over and he was a pretty huge deal in NXT for a long time, not to mention him getting strapped on the main roster before the injury bug derailed everything.  Tyler Breeze, who I liked as much as the next guy, was only gonna get so far in the WWE regardless of who they brought in.  NXT in that era was the place where everyone got a chance and most of the "big name" indy guys who took that spotlight were "big names" for a reason, so they got pushed.  Everyone got a chance, some failed (indy and home grown) and some didn't.

[SelectiveGamer]

I feel like once live fans return they will just chant AEW loudly and constantly in an attempt to prevent WWE from doing anything ?

[Rozalia1]

On 27/06/2021 at 6:01 PM, skidmarkgn said:

You keep using Finn as your example of when things went wrong, I get that you personal opinion of him is apparently low but when he debuted on NXT he over as hell, people knew him from his bullet club time and the talk of him doing a body paint entrance in WWE was everywhere, his first couple/few demon matches were also extremely over and he was a pretty huge deal in NXT for a long time, not to mention him getting strapped on the main roster before the injury bug derailed everything.  Tyler Breeze, who I liked as much as the next guy, was only gonna get so far in the WWE regardless of who they brought in.  NXT in that era was the place where everyone got a chance and most of the "big name" indy guys who took that spotlight were "big names" for a reason, so they got pushed.  Everyone got a chance, some failed (indy and home grown) and some didn't.

 

Kenta would have been far worse but he got injured as he tends to do so it wasn't as big an issue. Something you're forgetting is everyone was "over" in NXT at that time which is why the crowd had the rep of being easily pleased. Finn was someone who couldn't promo. His matches were all the same. All went on interminably long (a big problem in wrestling these days) on a 1 hour show. He would go over NXT's top talent who then would be buried into oblivion. His paint looked fine sure but he wrestled no different and never really sold the paint like someone like Stardust did. Speaking of Stardust, they had an elite talent in Cody Rhodes who could do everything better than Finn (well, Finn could high fly better I suppose)... and they had him as a jobber and let him leave the company which ultimately created AEW. HHH has pull in WWE. He is the one hiring all those guys. He got Vince to go with Roman Reigns rather than Big E as the next "guy". He somehow convinced Vince (likely used the Irish heritage as Vince loves that) to give Finn the inaugural Universal title. If HHH had concerned himself more/also with "WWE guys" then the company would have been better off by a considerable degree. 

 

Of course we disagree yes. You think that all these guys getting "their shot" is a good thing when... it isn't, sorry. Not everyone can play. That is the truth of things. Sometimes sadly, even if it is something we have no control over... we can't do things right. Smaller wrestlers with their "flips" have made it so bigger and bigger moves need to be done, on shows that increasingly less and less people care about. On AEW you will often see nonsense like guys taking backbody bumps on the hard flooring of the entrance stage and for what? No one will remember that and they're just hurting themselves now and down the line. Then you got the suicide dives where you have Darby, Fenix, Red Velvet, list goes on who at times will almost paralyze themselves doing such an overused and meaningless move that no one cares when it does done today. Not everyone has to be a 300lb 6'8 behemoth no, smaller guys can be found a place yes... but as an attraction, not as most of a show. 

 

On 27/06/2021 at 11:01 PM, SelectiveGamer said:

I feel like once live fans return they will just chant AEW loudly and constantly in an attempt to prevent WWE from doing anything

 

I doubt it. It might come out during really bad stuff but beyond that nah. I mean, if you're a AEW fan you are not only paying WWE but also having to watch RAW to get to do your chants. If you're at Smackdown then you generally have a good show in front of you so you're hardly going to get many people joining in. 

[skidmarkgn]

6 hours ago, Rozalia1 said:

Of course we disagree yes. You think that all these guys getting "their shot" is a good thing when... it isn't, sorry.

 

I'm curious which future "mega stars" who didn't come from the indy scene you think were being held back during those times?  Almost all of NXT's top talent made their name in other promotions then got called to the "minor leagues" in WWE and, for the most part, flourished.  Seems like most of the flops, again, I'm talking about 2014-late 2015/early2016, were "WWE guys".  Trying to point at a brainwashed crowd in Full Sail doesn't really hold any weight either, the talent was being praised all over... except for probably Cornette, who hates everything that isn't rooted in the '70's and 80's.

[Rozalia1]

15 hours ago, skidmarkgn said:

I'm curious which future "mega stars" who didn't come from the indy scene you think were being held back during those times?  Almost all of NXT's top talent made their name in other promotions then got called to the "minor leagues" in WWE and, for the most part, flourished.  Seems like most of the flops, again, I'm talking about 2014-late 2015/early2016, were "WWE guys".  Trying to point at a brainwashed crowd in Full Sail doesn't really hold any weight either, the talent was being praised all over... except for probably Cornette, who hates everything that isn't rooted in the '70's and 80's.

 

First off to clear up something so we don't miscommunicate. The meaning of "WWE guy" to me. It does not just mean a guy who was solely in the WWE system, Baron Corbin for example. It also applies to guys who weren't anything big on the Indies and spent limited time in them. John Cena for example was at an Indy for 2 years before he entered the then WWE system. No one calls him an Indy guy and it would be silly to. 

 

First off most of the women who were successful from that period were "WWE" and even those that weren't were refined by WWE as they offered better training for the women that simply was not available elsewhere with some exceptions. So that is a lot of success for that group right there. Just compare WWE's elite female talent to AEW's to see a wide gulf between them. 

Now on the matter of flops. I'd have to get into fantasy booking if I were to lay out exactly what should have happened to not have the likes of Tyler Breeze flop and I'll not do that. Had he not been buried into oblivion in NXT and actually got some wins over Finn, Indy guys coming in trying to take his spot as the feud's reason, Vince likely would have given him a better shot. Others like say Ascension... well, Vince just obliterated them for some reason. Must have offended him in some esoteric way like putting ketchup and mayonnaise in their sandwiches or something absurd like that. 

 

Cornette does not apply here. He wasn't watching any of those guys at the time. Some like Sami Zayn, Kevin Owens, Samoa Joe (notice I have not named them as problems) he was around at other promotions and has good things to say about (even if finds Owens and Zayn insufferable as people). He got to see a refined Finn later and only has good things to say about him. Neville he has seen as PAC and likes him, saying that PAC is so good that he overcomes the fact that he is short for a wrestler.

As for the 70s/80s comment. I can see it, but don't fully agree. To him the most important aspect is how believable someone is, how believable is what is happening, that sort of thing. That is timeless. On the matter of movesets you might disagree with his stance on many "modern moves", however he makes good points on the matters of the basics. Many wrestlers today can't throw a good looking punch so then you get people throwing forearms which look perhaps even worse as they can't do those either. They can do all these complicated moves and yet can't do basic strikes. 

[skidmarkgn]

6 hours ago, Rozalia1 said:

 

First off to clear up something so we don't miscommunicate. The meaning of "WWE guy" to me. It does not just mean a guy who was solely in the WWE system, Baron Corbin for example. It also applies to guys who weren't anything big on the Indies and spent limited time in them. John Cena for example was at an Indy for 2 years before he entered the then WWE system. No one calls him an Indy guy and it would be silly to. 

 

First off most of the women who were successful from that period were "WWE" and even those that weren't were refined by WWE as they offered better training for the women that simply was not available elsewhere with some exceptions. So that is a lot of success for that group right there. Just compare WWE's elite female talent to AEW's to see a wide gulf between them. 

Now on the matter of flops. I'd have to get into fantasy booking if I were to lay out exactly what should have happened to not have the likes of Tyler Breeze flop and I'll not do that. Had he not been buried into oblivion in NXT and actually got some wins over Finn, Indy guys coming in trying to take his spot as the feud's reason, Vince likely would have given him a better shot. Others like say Ascension... well, Vince just obliterated them for some reason. Must have offended him in some esoteric way like putting ketchup and mayonnaise in their sandwiches or something absurd like that. 

 

 

None of that really answers my question.  The women's division isn't really applicable because there weren't really any high profile indy women coming in and taking over at that time.  You mention the ascension but their demise was on the main roster.  And then there's Breeze.  Maybe he could have been a high profile mid-card guy, but there was definitely a limit to how far he was gonna go on the main roster.  There weren't any Breeze vs. Cena Wrestlemania matches in the near future.  2015 was also the year of WM 31 I believe, which was the event both Rusev and Bray (guys I would consider to be "WWE guys" when they were in NXT) had their careers completely derailed, and it certainly wasn't by indy guys getting undeserved pushes.

[Rozalia1]

Just now, skidmarkgn said:

None of that really answers my question.  The women's division isn't really applicable because there weren't really any high profile indy women coming in and taking over at that time.  You mention the ascension but their demise was on the main roster.  And then there's Breeze.  Maybe he could have been a high profile mid-card guy, but there was definitely a limit to how far he was gonna go on the main roster.  There weren't any Breeze vs. Cena Wrestlemania matches in the near future.  2015 was also the year of WM 31 I believe, which was the event both Rusev and Bray (guys I would consider to be "WWE guys" when they were in NXT) had their careers completely derailed, and it certainly wasn't by indy guys getting undeserved pushes.

 

I already discounted Ascension myself. They jobbed to Hideo and Finn the one time and left as far as I recall which is whatever. Anyway, the main issue isn't even with the people who were on the show and were pushed aside. The big issue is for all those people who never even got to show up on NXT because all the time and spots were taken. Do many of the guys on NXT really require such long and often, dull, runs in NXT? No. Do green guys who are fresh and need experience need longer runs there? Yes. And no, this was an issue before AEW and AEW now existing doesn't mean they must do this. AEW regularly puts out there green talent themselves, which includes some of their supposed "vets".

 

You talk as if Breeze having a midcard gimmick means he was condemned to it forever. People evolve their gimmicks. Shawn Michaels didn't stick to being a "rocker", he went beyond it. HHH moved beyond Degeneration X. Cena, the guy, before becoming such had a rapper gimmick. In NXT during jobber matches Breeze toyed with his opponents, he was so good he could take breaks and let opponents recover. His top rival was Adrian Neville, a freak athlete, who Breeze could push to the limit as beyond all the vanity Breeze could actually go and is a threat to anybody he faces in the ring especially when he focuses and stops messing around. All that went out the window by the end and he was sent into the oblivion of the main roster. Vince saw that he got a loser and as such made him one on his show too. The cherry on top in all of this was him getting sent back to NXT and what that meant for him. Sure, he got some nice matches and he was even given the tag titles, but no real attempt was made to honour him and try and rebuild him back up. Compare this to Tyson Kidd who when he turned up on NXT all those years ago rebuilt himself and then from that was able to become much more than he used to be on the main roster. 

[jackmadrox]

On 6/23/2021 at 3:11 PM, SelectiveGamer said:

lol

 

Superhero Nikki Cross is probably the best WWE thing right now.

 

It's a nice callback to The Hurricane and Molly Holly's superhero persona and I honestly love it.

....I mean everyone is entitled to their opinion, but you're joking, right?

[Cats]

WWE brought Zelina Vega back....

 

didnt they fired her for refusing to give her twitch account to WWE?

[jackmadrox]

2 hours ago, Cats said:

WWE brought Zelina Vega back....

 

didnt they fired her for refusing to give her twitch account to WWE?

She sold her soul it seems.

[Rozalia1]

On 03/07/2021 at 9:11 PM, jackmadrox said:

She sold her soul it seems.

 

Sold her soul? Few people in the world who will ruin themselves for nothing? Unions aren't happening from within wrestling itself, no company supports it nor will. Wrestlers themselves will not support either as has clearly been shown.

 

She likely has come back to more money, the guy in charge of the whole taking over of Wrestler's stuff (such as Twitch) got fired so that may be getting reversed (meaning she has no issue with the company anymore), and she may be getting more attention on the show in future. 

[Infected Elite]

On 27/06/2021 at 3:01 PM, SelectiveGamer said:

I feel like once live fans return they will just chant AEW loudly and constantly in an attempt to prevent WWE from doing anything

 

well they've failed to do anything of note. Bliss/Fiend are way diff areas, whereas Fiend should have been top of the card, unbeatable beast till Mania. but nope. I get Brodie passing tho. Lashley could have been booked more dominant but its heel booking 101.

 

McIntyre is not good. ill say it. Hes garbage. 

 

Roman is gonna beat Edge at MITB and then Cena at SSlam. Then a program with Rollins. I hate Roman, regardless what he does. 

 

I only watch the ppvs now.  but AEW deserves to be chanted, maybe WWE would go back to TV14 but doubt it.

 

 

Edited July 7, 2021 by Infected Elite
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