Digital Homicide is suing Jim Sterling for 10 million dollars.

[damon8r351]

A legal pissing contest between a largely irrelevant game company and what appears to be some sort of half-orc hybrid with an internet connection? Must be a slow news day.

[StrickenBiged]

That's the problem. Random people on Youtube think they need to "help" the video maker. I know the Retsupurae guys have begged their subscribers to stop visiting the channels of people they RPd because it just led them to get strikes on their channels and have videos removed. So because of all that "help" they stopped doing Retsupurae because it just wasn't worth it anymore.

 

Yup. Which probably explains why Romine has phrased his case like that - he's trying to argue that Jim hasn't publicly denounced or discouraged the "harassers" from "harassing" him. I've never heard of a positive duty or obligation to discourage other people from doing whatever the hell they want. 

 

Jim's certainly never encouraged any of his audience to mess with DH, as far as I know, and I sub to pretty much everything he does. (Even if he had, I still wouldn't say that he should be liable for it. The actual actions taken by the "harassers" would still be on them as independent persons, in my view, but the law in the US may have a different take on it, idk)

[TigressLion]

Oh you know... Just the fucking SHERIFF of the soul-sucking meme-riddled blackhole that is Steam Greenlight

Steam Greenlight? Must be part of that pc mustard race. The only thing I know about Steam is its owned by a fat guy.

[Dreakon13]

while the opinions of people like him and TotalBiscuit are needed

 

Hmm?  How are their opinions any more "needed" than any other blowhard online talking about a game?

 

Bless their hearts, they should be able to say whatever they want because opinions and everything... but frankly, the sheep-like attitude (and I never call people sheep but it's shamefully appropriate here) and obsession people have with the opinions of these YouTube personalities, and how they unabashedly regurgitate them all over the internet, these days is just pathetic.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Dreakon13

[StrickenBiged]

Hmm?  How are their opinions any more "needed" than any other blowhard online talking about a game?

 

I dunno about "needed" per se, but their pro-consumer stance is a counterpoint to the opinions of some journo's and pundits who's incomes rely on the publishers and developers advertising with them. 

[DaivRules]

Hmm?  How are their opinions any more "needed" than any other blowhard online talking about a game?

 

Bless their hearts, they should be able to say whatever they want because opinions and everything... but frankly, the sheep-like attitude (and I never call people sheep but it's shamefully appropriate here) and obsession people have with the opinions of these YouTube personalities, and how they unabashedly regurgitate them all over the internet, these days is just pathetic.

 

I wonder if anyone has done any studies between YouTube subscribers and cult members of the 60's and 70's. They seem eerily similar to me and make me appreciate my total ignorance of the details of the whole scene.

[Dreakon13]

I dunno about "needed" per se, but their pro-consumer stance is a counterpoint to the opinions of some journo's and pundits who's incomes rely on the publishers and developers advertising with them. 

 

So is mine... so is yours...

 

People seem to have trouble thinking on their own lately.  Their "stance" should be taken with just as much salt as the pundits you can't seem to count on, yet people treat their videos like the gaming gospel.

[MMDE]

Honestly, seeing as they've started fund raising, I think this is just another dishonest plot by Digital Homicide. They've seen another trend, the likes of Anita Sarkeesian, flashing their victim card, raising money to fight against these terrible gamers. I'm surprised they haven't gone the feminist route here yet, but I really shouldn't, because they've been trying to cash in on that stuff the other way around with the pimp simulator.

 

I think the funniest part of all of this is how Jim did a lot of videos on a lot of terrible games and he had no idea they were by DH, because DH dishonestly tried to trick it's audience by going under another name.

 

Anyway, they release so many games a year, and they're like 2 people or something. You know their games aren't made with love, or put a lot of time and effort into. It's just an attempt at quick cash grab, putting up cheap shit people grab on steam sale and never play.

 

I don't get how they stay afloat, it costs a decent amount of money to put the game up on steam greenlight, and they had like 18 shitty games up now???

Edited March 18, 2016 by MMDE

[DaivRules]

 putting up cheap shit people grab on steam sale and never play.

 

So you're saying this is Steams fault. Interesting...

[MMDE]

So you're saying this is Steams fault. Interesting...

 

Not sure how you got that out of what I said... People buying tons of shit because it's on sale. Steam not being able to deal with it and having relaxed rules etc. Unity is easy to make games for and there's lots of assets to use. DH abusing it all.

 

But really, Digital Homicide is just lazy with their games, and they get mad when people criticize them for their obvious lack of effort. There's absolutely no way they can beat Jim in a court case for commenting on their games and shady practices. This is a clear case of first amendment rights.

Edited March 18, 2016 by MMDE

[StrickenBiged]

So is mine... so is yours...

 

People seem to have trouble thinking on their own lately.  Their "stance" should be taken with just as much salt as the pundits you can't seem to count on, yet people treat their videos like the gaming gospel.

 

Absolutely agree with you. While the pundits who get their money from ads, etc, have an interest in maintaining that, pundits/critics like Jim have an interest in maintaining their revenues from their viewers/patrons. Some will be better or worse than others at divorcing themselves from any bias, but it must be there. I'm sure Jim and others like him who rely on crowdfunding must stop from time to time and think "if I say this, will I lose subs?".

[MMDE]

I'm sure Jim and others like him who rely on crowdfunding must stop from time to time and think "if I say this, will I lose subs?".

 

I'm not sure either way about Jim really. I know he stops his SJW/feminism stuff when people whine in the comment section when he start talking such crap or take stupid stances on certain issues. I know there are youtubers who gets funded through Patreon who do their best not to look at who's giving them money, simply for the fact that the people giving money shouldn't have any influence on them.

 

Still, I don't get how this is any relevant to if he can make a living on commenting on certain topics or not. Rather irrelevant to the issue IMO, but still interesting, Jim actually talked trash about tons of their games for a long time without even know it was DH. They released the game under different dev names.

http://www.thejimquisition.com/2015/09/digital-homicide-and-the-case-of-the-sockpuppet-developers/

Edited March 18, 2016 by MMDE

[StrickenBiged]

I'm not sure either way about Jim really. I know he stops his SJW/feminism stuff when people whine in the comment section when he start talking such crap or take stupid stances on certain issues. I know there are youtubers who gets funded through Patreon who do their best not to look at who's giving them money, simply for the fact that the people giving money shouldn't have any influence on them.

 

Still, I don't get how this is any relevant to if he can make a living on commenting on certain topics or not. Rather irrelevant to the issue IMO, but still interesting, Jim actually talked trash about tons of their games for a long time without even know it was DH. They released the game under different dev names.

 

You're right. It's a bit of a side-track. Jim's at his best when he's talking about the actual products and practices in the industry. Maybe he's toned down the SJW stuff in response to feedback, changed his mind on the issues, or simply doesn't want to talk about it that week. Who knows. 

 

I don't watch all his Squirty Plays as I'm not on Steam so they're rarely relevant to me. But does he have a right to make money by commenting and critiquing these games? As long as he stays on the right side of fair use, then sure. 

 

However, Jim's videos and articles on DH specifically went a little further than that and were attempts (successful or not I can't say) at journalism, so there may be issues there. 

 

I haven't been able to track down a copy of the court docs online (if anyone has a PACER account and doesn't mind spending a few bucks to get a copy from the court, please do share) but going off DH's site, the issue doesn't seem to be about Jim's critique, copyright or fair use. They are alleging libelous and other acts:

 

 

I have been falsely accused of:

 

• Stealing artwork

• Stealing assets

• Flipping projects with no work put in

• Doxing

• Had products misrepresented with intention to do damage

• Of illegally using another companies name

• Conducting illegal business activities

• Impersonating someone

• Being incompetent and unable to perform my job

 

If DH push the case, this could go to a hearing or two to decide the factual and legal issues. 

 

However, if DH had a leg to stand on, I'd have thought this lawyer they had in the wings would have taken on the case for a cut of that $10m. If you've got a case, you can usually find someone willing to make it for you in return for a cut. 

 

Edit: I'm not trying to say I think DH's lawsuit has any merit, I honestly don't know what the position is in the USA with regards to libel and journalism - how much investigation is a journo expected to undertake before making a statement? What does the law expect of them if they got something wrong? Etc. DH is saying that they've got receipts to prove that they purchased assets that they say Jim said they stole. Factual issues like that arise. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by StrickenBiged

[DaivRules]

Edit: I'm not trying to say I think DH's lawsuit has any merit, I honestly don't know what the position is in the USA with regards to libel and journalism - how much investigation is a journo expected to undertake before making a statement? What does the law expect of them if they got something wrong? Etc. DH is saying that they've got receipts to prove that they purchased assets that they say Jim said they stole. Factual issues like that arise. 

 

Don't know that we've got any lawyers here and while I studied this as part of my Degree in Ethics (Communication Law), a lot of the situation you explained is subject to interpretation. The courts would evaluate the actual words used by the defendant. There are too many small-time cases like this, it's difficult to know if there is any precedence.

 

Being that the plaintiff still has no legal council, I would predict this ends one of two ways: Settlement or dropped case.

[StrickenBiged]

Don't know that we've got any lawyers here and while I studied this as part of my Degree in Ethics (Communication Law), a lot of the situation you explained is subject to interpretation. The courts would evaluate the actual words used by the defendant. There are too many small-time cases like this, it's difficult to know if there is any precedence.

 

Being that the plaintiff still has no legal council, I would predict this ends one of two ways: Settlement or dropped case.

 

I'm a lawyer here in the UK. I don't specialise in defamation cases but it has arisen as an aside to some of our work a few years ago, and I had to study it years ago at school. However, that was not in a journalistic context. I know you can buy quite large books here, "Journalism law for dummies", things like that, so I assume there must be more to it than simply "make sure what you say is true". I assume that the USA would have some analogous rules (and, given they have 1st Amendment rights, I'd expect them to be even more lenient to the speaker in any defamation context). 

 

Yeah, all that nuance comes into it when it comes to proving your case. What did the defendant actually say, what would a reasonable person understand from those remarks, is what a reasonable person would understand from the remarks true, etc, etc. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by StrickenBiged

[DrBloodmoney]

Small time, independent game maker sues small-time, independent you-tube uploader.

Makes national and international news.

Beneficial for both parties.

Well done all - excellent co-ordinated media coverage.

[NotAFoxAnymore]

If they raised the money, I'm sure they'd back out of sueing him and enjoy the easy money.

[StrickenBiged]

Small time, independent game maker sues small-time, independent you-tube uploader.

Makes national and international news.

Beneficial for both parties.

Well done all - excellent co-ordinated media coverage.

 

Ha! You're such a cynic. 

[Wavergray]

Hmm?  How are their opinions any more "needed" than any other blowhard online talking about a game?

 

Bless their hearts, they should be able to say whatever they want because opinions and everything... but frankly, the sheep-like attitude (and I never call people sheep but it's shamefully appropriate here) and obsession people have with the opinions of these YouTube personalities, and how they unabashedly regurgitate them all over the internet, these days is just pathetic.

People like Jim are needed in the same way political news is needed, they are the current watchdog journalist of gaming. When something that is perceived as anti-consumer in the gaming sphere happened these people will have a opinion on it and since they are popular and people trust their opinion, they become rallying points for people who share that opinion. This is important because when people with similar opinions don't have a rallying points nothing gets done about the problem.

 

Think about any life changing problem that happens in the US, like that lead in the water problem that's happening in Michigan, people knew about it for a year and nothing was done to fix it until someone made a rallying point for that problem which caught the attention of the big news companies and in turn the government.

A ton of people can have the same opinion, but if no one steps up to be the rallying point no one will say anything and nothing will change.

 

People like Jim Sterling, TotalBiscuit, and Angry Joe stepped up to be those rallying points/leaders and because they did so, people with similar opinions have a place where they can talk or whatever.

It's not that people are sheep or anything like that, it's just the fact that people don't won't to be seen as a contrarian just for having a different opinions from the vocal minority/majority. So when someone with that different opinion does step up to be that contrarian the other people in the silent majority/minority will also step up and join them. 

 

This is nothing new it has happened for centuries, it's just how people are.

 

You don't have to agree with their opinions or anyone else opinion, but for some people the opinions of Jim and the rest are important enough to make them stand up and show their own opinion on a topic/ issue.

[Dreakon13]

People like Jim are needed in the same way political news is needed, they are the current watchdog journalist of gaming. When something that is perceived as anti-consumer in the gaming sphere happened these people will have a opinion on it and since they are popular and people trust their opinion, they become rallying points for people who share that opinion. This is important because when people with similar opinions don't have a rallying points nothing gets done about the problem.

 

Think about any life changing problem that happens in the US, like that lead in the water problem that's happening in Michigan, people knew about it for a year and nothing was done to fix it until someone made a rallying point for that problem which caught the attention of the big news companies and in turn the government.

A ton of people can have the same opinion, but if no one steps up to be the rallying point no one will say anything and nothing will change.

 

People like Jim Sterling, TotalBiscuit, and Angry Joe stepped up to be those rallying points/leaders and because they did so, people with similar opinions have a place where they can talk or whatever.

It's not that people are sheep or anything like that, it's just the fact that people don't won't to be seen as a contrarian just for having a different opinions from the vocal minority/majority. So when someone with that different opinion does step up to be that contrarian the other people in the silent majority/minority will also step up and join them. 

 

This is nothing new it has happened for centuries, it's just how people are.

 

You don't have to agree with their opinions or anyone else opinion, but for some people the opinions of Jim and the rest are important enough to make them stand up and show their own opinion on a topic/ issue.

 

The gaming industry is different though.  Consumers can easily make their opinions heard by not participating, by speaking with their wallets.  By being educated and researching, or not making the same mistake twice (if they actually consider it to be a mistake and it's not just someone telling them it's a mistake).  Taking this for example, everyone on Steam knows that Digital Homicide games are garbage... and if you don't, you can tell within two minutes of eyeballing the forums and user reviews.  Jim Sterling wasn't needed, TotalBiscuit wouldn't be needed.  I can't think of one thing in the gaming industry that Jim Sterling could possibly say that I couldn't get directly from the consumers dealing with it, or seeing it for myself.

 

If you want to leverage his insight as a way of seeing the whys and wheres of what's new in the industry, that's fine... but there's nothing stopping you from taking that information and forming your own educated opinion from a variety of sources.  Something a lot of people just aren't willing to do anymore.

 

 

 

EDIT: And I think it's absolutely ludicrous that you'd suggest the Jim Sterling/TotalBiscuit/Angry Joe subscribers are some oppressed silent minority/majority.  Welcome to the Internet, where almost every scathing opinion about a game spammed across a forum has one of their videos attached as "proof".  They ARE the vocal minority/majority.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Dreakon13

[Bumperklever]

Small time, independent game maker sues small-time, independent you-tube uploader.

Makes national and international news.

Beneficial for both parties.

Well done all - excellent co-ordinated media coverage.

illuminatie confirmed

[Wavergray]

The gaming industry is different though.  Consumers can easily make their opinions heard by not participating, by speaking with their wallets.  By being educated and researching, or not making the same mistake twice (if they actually consider it to be a mistake and it's not just someone telling them it's a mistake).  Taking this for example, everyone on Steam knows that Digital Homicide games are garbage... and if you don't, you can tell within two minutes of eyeballing the forums and user reviews.  Jim Sterling wasn't needed, TotalBiscuit wouldn't be needed.  I can't think of one thing in the gaming industry that Jim Sterling could possibly say that I couldn't get directly from the consumers dealing with it, or seeing it for myself.

 

If you want to leverage his insight as a way of seeing the whys and wheres of what's new in the industry, that's fine... but there's nothing stopping you from taking that information and forming your own educated opinion from a variety of sources.  Something a lot of people just aren't willing to do anymore.

 

I think comparing anything gaming-related to the people in Michigan suffering from the poison in their water supply is in poor taste, by the way.

 

EDIT: And I think it's absolutely ludicrous that you'd suggest the Jim Sterling/TotalBiscuit/Angry Joe subscribers are some oppressed silent minority/majority.  Welcome to the Internet, where almost every scathing opinion about a game spammed across a forum has one of their videos attached as "proof".  They ARE the vocal minority/majority.

The speaking with your wallet thing only works in the long term. In the short term it does very little change things. Look at Assassin's Creed and Call of Duty, only now after years of people saying stuff about them are the developers trying the change things. Yes people could research stuff on their own, but they don't. Street Fighter 5 was the most recent example of people not researching a game before they bought it, plus the videos that Jim and the rest make can be apart of someones research. For some people they are just more high profile versions of forums and user reviews.

 

I don't care about Jim and the rests insight at all, more then half of the time I disagree with their opinions, but I do acknowledge that for some people their insights and opinions are important. 

 

How is it in poor taste? I'm not bad talking them or the situation they are in. I just stating that fact that people knew or suspected about the problem with the water, but no spoke up until a year later when the damage had already been done. If someone had spoke up sooner something could have been done to stop it from being the huge problem it is. Which is the point I was making, unless someone steps up and takes whatever backlash they may get for stepping up nothing will change. It's kind of like the bystander effect, no one will do something until someone else does something.

 

Edit: Exactly my point, years ago those subscribers were the silent minority/majority, but now that Jim and the rest are around they are now the vocal minority/majority. That can be both a good thing and a bad thing based on what a persons opinion on a topic / issue is. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by soultaker655

[Dreakon13]

The speaking with your wallet thing only works in the long term. In the short term it does very little change things. Look at Assassin's Creed and Call of Duty, only now after years of people saying stuff about them are the developers trying the change things. Yes people could research stuff on their own, but they don't. Street Fighter 5 was the most recent example of people not researching a game before they bought it, plus the videos that Jim and the rest make can be apart of someones research. For some people they are just more high profile versions of forums and user reviews.

 

I don't care about Jim and the rests insight at all, more then half of the time I disagree with their opinions, but I do acknowledge that for some people their insights and opinions are important.

 

How is it in poor taste? I'm not bad talking them or the situation they are in. I just stating that fact that people knew or suspected about the problem with the water, but no spoke up until a year later when the damage had already been done. If someone had spoke up sooner something could have been done to stop it from being the huge problem it is. Which is the point I was making, unless someone steps up and takes whatever backlash they may get for stepping up nothing will change. It's kind of like the bystander effect, no one will do something until someone else does something.

 

That's a good example.  Assassin's Creed and Call of Duty.  Why do you think "short term" if someone "stepped up" that it'd have been a more positive impact?  Because you don't like them, or maybe because your forum buddies didn't like them?  What about all the people who have been buying and enjoying them?  Do their opinions, that they were OK with it, not matter?  If the tide is finally turning for those series because of reduced sales, it's not because those consumers started finally listening to the YouTube gaming gospel after five years... it's because those consumers have decided now is the time step up for themselves and not buy the games.  If you can't appreciate the importance of letting the consumer dictate the climate themselves, there's really no reason to continue this conversation.

 

This has become a culture of people shoving their opinions down everyone elses throats, with the caveat that they're doing it "for their own good".  With the mindless lackeys of YouTube personalities leading the charge.  It's not needed.   Let people figure things out for themselves.

 

 

And I did edit the poor taste part out, but you're comparing people suffering from poisoned water to opinions about video games.  One "needed" someone to step up, the other only does if you're too lazy or stupid to form your own opinions.

 

Edit: Exactly my point, years ago those subscribers were the silent minority/majority, but now that Jim and the rest are around they are now the vocal minority/majority. That can be both a good thing and a bad thing based on what a persons opinion on a topic / issue is. 

 

I call BS on that, all of it.  But neither of us have anything to back that up.

Edited March 18, 2016 by Dreakon13

[Wavergray]

That's a good example.  Assassin's Creed and Call of Duty.  Why do you think "short term" if someone "stepped up" that it'd have been a more positive impact?  Because you don't like them, or because your forum buddies didn't like them?  What about all the people who have been buying and enjoying them?  Do their opinions, that they were OK with it, not matter?  If the tide is finally turning for those series because of reduced sales, it's because those consumers have decided now to step up for themselves and not buy the games... not let some YouTube personality do it for them five years ago.  If you can't appreciate the difference, there's really no reason to continue this conversation.

 

And I did edit the poor taste part out, but you're comparing people suffering from poisoned water to opinions about video games.  One "needed" someone to step up, the other only does if you're too lazy or stupid to form your own opinions.

I understand the difference, but I'm not sure if you do. Everyone has an opinion, some people won't express those opinions until someone else does it first. That all I've been saying. Opinions are not formed out of nothingness, to form a opinion you need information and just like forums posts and user reviews the videos of Jim and the rest are information that some people need to form their opinion. There is nothing wrong with them doing so.

 

This conversation is off the topic of this thread so lets just stop it here. 

Edited March 18, 2016 by soultaker655

[Dreakon13]

I understand the difference, but I'm not sure if you do. Everyone has an opinion, some people won't express those opinions until someone else does it first. That all I've been saying. Opinions are not formed out of nothingness, to form a opinion you need information and just like forums posts and user reviews the videos of Jim and the rest are information that some people need to form their opinion. There is nothing wrong with them doing so.

 

This conversation is off the topic of this thread so lets just stop it here. 

 

You glossed over my entire point, but whatever.  Opinions are formed from personal experience and education on a topic, at least they should be... not from other people's opinions.  These YouTube videos and the scathing forum posts (that usually link to them) are basically the bottom of the barrel for real "education" and "research"... albeit a functional way of saving money if you're terrified of potentially buying a bad game... but people, like you apparently, hold them in WAY too high of a regard.  Dangerously high.  Holding them in the same regard as people who might have saved lives by speaking up (the Michigan water thing).

 

Which I suppose is probably why Digital Homicide see's Jim Sterlings opinions as so threatening.  I guess they wouldn't have to (hell they probably wouldn't even be making games anymore) if people were smart enough to not buy their awful games on their own.   Talking heads shouldn't be an acceptable replacement for educated, intelligent consumers.

 

(See, it's not completely off topic...)

Edited March 18, 2016 by Dreakon13