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STARLOVE

Should Co-Op Play Enable Trophies?

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Hey guys

 

This is something that has been bothering me for a while now. In the past, I've played DS2 and Bloodborne and got a 100% on both of them (an another account). Although not the hardest of things I've ever done, I was schocked that the platinum trophies have a 17 - 22% completion rate. One of the main reasons for this, of course, it co-op. Having never played co-op myself, but having seen it, I can't help but wonder why someone who cheapens the difficulty so much, should receive the same award as I who have struggled alone. Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is anything wrong with co-op in itself. People can enjoy the game in whichever way they please.

 

I do believe, however, that the outcome should not be. The rarity of trophies, in my opinion, should reflect the individual who completed it. What are your thoughts on this?

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Their high completion rate has nothing to do with coop. Its because the trophy lists are actually quite easy. The hardest thing about them is learning how to play the game. Once you get the hang of it, your not very likely to struggle with any trophies. Once you learn how to play them, their not any harder than your regular game. Theres also the fact that most people who play these games seem to love them, so they would want to keep playing and get trophies. I doubt that many people do these entirely in coop, it would be too much of a pain in the ass, you'd be better off just learning to play it on your own. I've platinumed Dark Souls, 2 and Bloodborne and would only rate them about a 5/10 difficulty wise.

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The argument that is being made, is that co-op makes the achievement infinitely easier. If people could actually read what is being said, that would be a nice thing. I literally said in the post that obtaining 100% is not the hardest things I have done. The argument that I am making is that the rarity of trophies should reflect the individual's merrit, not a cheapened watered down version of it. Because by doing so, you put the merrit of someone who does co-op and therefore makes is considerably easier on the same level as someone who did it alone.

To address TheBeyond

 

- Nobody is speaking about "struggling" alone as if that is the merrit in itself. The merrit in itself is what I described above.

- Friendly NPCs are part of the game, they are not a concious entitity outside of the game, there inside the game.
- The rarity on PSN is rarer, but does not reflect the true rarity it should be.

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As long as people have the option i don't see an issue with it

 

I could do with a coop partner for the defiled Amygdala boss and its cheap one-shottedness

Edited by chickenbaltipie
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Boosting was legal last time I checked so answer of your question would be, yes.

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I am surprised that the souls community, known for being willing to have a difficult time being so lenient toward cheapening an experience. However, I must again express my utter disappointment with people's reading skills and argumentative abilities.
Because boosting is legal does not make is less cheap, it does not make my arguments less viable.
To express that the option is there does not make it less cheap, it does not make my arguments less viable. Please argue with what I am actually saying.

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The rarity is so low because of the dedicated playerbase, not because of co-op. Mass Effect 2 is a similar example. Anything that was deliberately put into the game is fine in my opinion.

Also i wouldn't consider using co-op as cheapening. It's just a different way of playing the game.

Edited by Happy
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I agree. When i play souls games for my first playtrough i always play alone . I think it's the way they are meant to be played. However in the future playtroughs i see nothing wrong with co-op.

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Again, for the fourth time now, I must debunk people who have very poor elementary reading skills.

 

Happy, we are not discussing the reason why the rarity is so low, we are discussing if an INCREASED lowering of rarity as a result of co op should be a thing. We are discussing if co op, and therefore making the game considerably easier, has the same right and same merrit as someone who did it the 'proper' way.

 

Filmfanatic, I have already expressed in the ORIGINAL post, that people can play however they want. But they should not receive the same award for playing the game however they want. Why is it so hard for people to actually argue to point, rather than dribble around it?

Edited by Starlove-
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Again, for the fourth time now, I must debunk people who have very poor elementary reading skills.

 

Happy, we are not discussing the reason why the rarity is so low, we are discussing if an INCREASED lowering of rarity as a result of co op should be a thing. We are discussing if co op, and therefore making the game considerably easier, has the same right and same merrit as someone who did it the 'proper' way.

 

Filmfanatic, I have already expressed in the ORIGINAL post, that people can play however they want. But they should not receive the same award for playing the game however they want. Why is it so hard for people to actually argue to point, rather than dribble around it?

 

I think the problem is that you see the Plat as only reward of finishing the game!  And you are upset because not everyone is the same opinion than you? Welcome to a discussion!

In my opinion everyone who plays Souls game with npc/other player just to make it easier , lose a lot of the Soul experience and fun ! But only because they use game features to make it easier they should still get there trophies.

Its like every game where you can skip whole game and just kill last boss to unlock hardest difficutly trophy ,  or ppl skip text on VN to get easy quick Plats.  They take away there own fun , but they can do what ever they want. 

 

I dont know why you lower your own fun/ reward just because other got it easier. You should never rate your own accomplishment by the way other achieved it .

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I guess most people don't actually argue to your "point" because there isn't any that has to be taken serious.

 

You're even having double standards when saying that having friendly NPC's helping out (which is making bosses a lot easier too) is ok 'cause it's a part of the game, but co-op (which also is an optional part of the game) is not.

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Filmfanatic, I have already expressed in the ORIGINAL post, that people can play however they want. But they should not receive the same award for playing the game however they want. Why is it so hard for people to actually argue to point, rather than dribble around it?

Ok then let me rephrase that. Who really cares how other people play the game and earn their trophies (unless they cheat/hack). If you think people earning trophies in co-op somehow lessens the reward for you then that's just something you'll have to deal with as I imagine most people aren't concerned whether someone earns a trophy solo or not. When I platinumed Dark Souls, the only time I had help was the final boss on NG+, everything else I did solo. If someone else platinumed the game entirely in co-op that in no way diminishes what I did. Personally I can be satisfied knowing that I was able to beat the game almost entirely solo.

Playing these games in co-op doesn't necessarily make the games considerably easier as bosses have increased health in co-op, not only that but if a summoned phantom dies right at the start of the fight you're left fighting a boss that has even more health than if you went at it solo. Ultimately I've found it easier to solo most bosses rather summon someone for a fight as I can take them down faster on my own.

Also there's a quote button at the bottom of every reply to make referring to someones post easier.

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Can you not read the 'proper' either, Happy? I think using ' ' is a clear sign of not taking proper too literally. But alright, to address again.

Xionix, no, I am not upset that people have a different opinion, I am upset that people can't argue with what I am saying. Ironically, you are doing exactly the same thing that is upsetting me. Because I never made the claim that I don't like other people's opinons because they are dissident opinions.
What is the argument against what I am saying exactly? Why is it justified that someone who cheapens an experience get to have the same rarity status as someone who didn't? Will you absolish the merrit aspect in a souls game? Will you abolish the value that souls game actually stand for? Is that your argument?

 

Happy, playing with magic also cheapens the experience, but it is part of the game design in itself. Co op is part of the game, but not in itself. Just as NPCs are, but thebeyond can't grasp that point, apparently. But I will come back to that. And now for the second time you are just recycling the same thing you said again and that hold no relevance to what is being discussed. So, once again, the causes of the rarity is of no concern to me, I also know the Souls community is a completionist one. Am I really have to going to repeat myself all over again because you can't seem to understand what is actually being said.

Thebeyond, I will explain the point to you once again or what? Please tell me why arguing that merrit on a souls game should reflect the road you took as an individual player within the game itself is a bad thing? Please tell me why it's such a bad thing to think that people who solo Souls games should not have the same lowered rarity percentage as people who put almost no effort in it.
Yes, you can argue that inside the game itself there are also ways to significantly make the game easier, but that is using the inherent game design to your advantage. Co op is using a concious entity outside of the game in order to make the experience easier, a lot easier.

So no, none of the things you guys have said actually are valid points.
To summarize:

- Playstyle and however people want to play is fine, but should not reflect in equal numbers, the merrit of players
- In game NPCs are not a valid argument because they are part of the main game. Using things within the game to soften the experience is to me perfectly fine because it doesn't come close to easy co op play. At all.

Filmfanatic, I do not care for how people play, that is what I have said multiple times now. I care about the rarity not being an equal reflection of the merrit one has put into the game. Yes, doing it co op lessens the award, but on the surface, we don't see this. I am absolutely convinced that on this website. The average 17% completion rate would be closer to 10% if not for co op. And yes, it does not diminish the personal merrit, but it does diminish the reflection in rarity percentages.
I have seen how co op works, they might have more health, but overall it's a lot easier. Although yes, there are scenarios where it can be harder (in case partner dies at start).

 

___________________

 

But alright, judging from this, it seems that people don't really care if a souls game, specifically designed to give you trouble (to a certain extend), is reflected within the merrit you put into it. Which is disappointing.I personally like to 100% games. For example, MGS2 to me was pretty difficult, the VR missions in particular. Let's say for example there was a way to co op them and make them significantly easier. On the surface, the rarity of the trophy would skyrocket. And as a result, on my profile, I get to share the same rarity status with people who put in half the effort I had to put in.
It's good to see that the people in this community are subversive toward the idea of trophy holding a merritocracy like dimension to them. As a matter of fact, it's downright shocking.
But alright, each to his own.

Edited by Starlove-
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In my opinion if co-op disabled trophies the rarity for the platinum would not be changed much. The rarity for the plat for the entire world for Dark Souls is 6.0% yet a game like inFamous has a worldwide rarity of just 1.9% (from the Playstation app). I'm betting that the large majority of people who have played both (like myself) would consider inFamous a much easier plat, yet it has a lower rarity on both here and PSN than the Dark Souls plat. As plenty of people will tell you, Souls games have a very dedicated fanbase and the people who play them, play them to completion.

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Because if you observe any stream with co op play, you see that it cheapens the experience. Why is this even a question? What do you think the reason is for most people to call onto other people? It's to help them, it's to lessen the difficulty.
FF14 is an MMO specifically designed to handle 8 man content. As someone who actually has completed all the savage content (except for the last tier), I think you are making a really silly comparison. Dark Souls can be completed solo, FF14 content can not. So comparing hardlocked co-op play to the opposite is a non argument.

 

But yes, your final remark is actually quite true. But you phrase it poorly. When I say 'proper', I don't mean it's the only legit way. I mean it's most certainly the hardest way and the question that I pose in relation to that is:

 

Should people share the same rarity status as me for putting in half the effort I had to put in? Well, the answer to me, as you can clearly tell, is no. People should not share the same rarity with me for putting in half the work. That's a perfectly reasonable argument to make and so far, nobody has truly shown me why this is a bad argument to be making.

Filmfanatic, and that would be fine. But I however, would much rather have the rarity percentage reflect the base of players putting their backs into it. Let's say that the percentage drops frop 17% to 15%. That would be perfectly fine to me, because it would achieve what I stand for. That rarity is a reflection of merrit, not of almost downright laziness.

Edited by Starlove-
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Should people share the same rarity status as me for putting in half the effort I had to put in? Well, the answer to me, as you can clearly tell, is no. People should not share the same rarity with me for putting in half the work. That's a perfectly reasonable argument to make and so far, nobody has truly shown me why this is a bad argument to be making.

 

its a bad argument because no trophy says : "beat X boss solo"

so you make it your self harder than the trophy is supposed to be :)  not other ppl cheapen it , you make it harder for your self . (which is ok , i prefer solo too , but i dont care if other ppl got it easier)

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Something in a game becoming easier doesn't necessarily make the rarity go up. When Killzone: Shadow Fall first came out you could not earn multiplayer trophies when playing against bots. I earned that plat entirely legit. Didn't boost a single kill or anythng, it took me 111 hours to earn all the online trophies. A couple of years later and the game is patched and online trophies can now be earned while playing against bots making them easier. Well not only did the plat rarity not go up at all but it in no way diminished my achievement as all you have to do is see when I earned the plat to know that I earned it long before you could play against bots meaning I did it the hard way.

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It doesn't say that and that is what I am arguing for. And yes, you do cheapen is by co op. Originally, you can play the game solo and clear it that way, of course you're going to cheapen it by playing co op. Literally people do co op most of the time because they can't do it solo. But alright, again, I will end with what I said before:

"judging from this, it seems that people don't really care if a souls game, specifically designed to give you trouble (to a certain extend), is reflected within the merrit you put into it. Which is disappointing.I personally like to 100% games. For example, MGS2 to me was pretty difficult, the VR missions in particular. Let's say for example there was a way to co op them and make them significantly easier. On the surface, the rarity of the trophy would skyrocket. And as a result, on my profile, I get to share the same rarity status with people who put in half the effort I had to put in.
It's good to see that the people in this community are subversive toward the idea of trophy holding a merritocracy like dimension to them. As a matter of fact, it's downright shocking.
But alright, each to his own."

No point in discussing any further, it's clear what most of you guys stand for.

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I love how he says that "

Happy, playing with magic also cheapens the experience, but it is part of the game design in itself. Co op is part of the game, but not in itself." If it wasn't in itself, they'd have implemented an "invite" button. The fact they implement a soapstone makes co op an implemented feature in the fame, so his point is moot.

The point is, this thread has made me laugh over how butt hurt he is and we should give him an award for being that butt hurt.

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its a bad argument because no trophy says : "beat X boss solo"

so you make it your self harder than the trophy is supposed to be :)  not other ppl cheapen it , you make it harder for your self . (which is ok , i prefer solo too , but i dont care if other ppl got it easier)

 

 

It doesn't say that and that is what I am arguing for.

 

no you arguing for " should coop play enable trophies"   and not " should they change trophies in next game to "beat x boss solo"

 

funny that you dont understand your own argument .

 

 

No point in discussing any further, it's clear what most of you guys stand for.

Was it really a discussion? or more a " my opinion is blablablub , and you are all wrong " ?

Edited by Xionx
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In relation to your point, though:

I think their goal is to allow everyone the same feeling of accomplishment. What if I had Cerebral Palsy and my right hand was affected, limiting my reactions. Should I not be able to accomplish this plat for how I was born? Yes, you feel as you put in more work BUT you HAVE the option to lessen the difficulty whereas sone people DONT or CANT have the option to do it solo whether they're afflicted with a problem or not. So yes, it is a little unnerving to know you're not rewarded for solo'ing it, but I think by not disabling it they allow every person from every walk a chance to share that feeling of accomplishment. "

Is this what you're looking for?

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