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Should Co-Op Play Enable Trophies?


Stardroid

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From the sounds of it your best bet is to competely ignore the plat rarities on here and download the Playstation app and go by those values as the Dark Souls plat is 6.0%, Dark Souls 2 is 4.7%, Dark Souls 2 SotFS is 4.0% and Demons Souls is just 3.0%. All of which are well below your "perfectly fine to me" figure of 15%.

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It appears that, caught up in fact that i seem to have misinterpreted your wording of the term "proper" due to the hostility of your tone (which is the reason this discussion isn't moving forward at all by the way), you have missed my point. Keep in mind that trophies, despite what they mean to you and me, are put into the game by the developers because they want you to play a certain way. Big open world games may want you to explore the map they created whereas narrative-driven games want you to take different paths on subsequent playthroughs. This leads me back to the Souls games, which all have lists that deliberately decide to let you play any way you wish. From a game designers perspective, forcing the player to limit himself in the way he plays the game just because of trophies would lessen the experience for those who want to play the game that way. That is why co-op doesn't disable trophies and it is also why i believe that we should keep it that way.

I get that your point is that your trophies should represent your accomplishments within the game. I will ignore the fact that this contradicts with you saying that we should allow magic and NPC summons. The way you play is definitively your own. But the same goes for every other person as well. Due to how different each and every person's playthrough is it is impossible to form a clear line what playthroughs should or should not be valid. Creating that line based on your own experience is self-centered and entitled. The argument that co-op isn't part of the game has no ground because, well it is in the game.

Edited by Happy
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Oh look, someone who thinks Souls games are "difficult". No, they're super easy, so stop thinking that beating them is a great accomplishment. It's not, it's just about going thru on your first playthrough, learning where enemies are placed, and learning boss attack patterns. Rather typical for someone to think that "learning is hard!!!". You're not special for finishing it or earning the platinum, so stop trying to deny people that because you think it should be rarer by punishing those who want to coop.

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Am i the only that just cant take this siriously and found this really hilarious to read? Anyway i always thought Co-op was meant to play with friends and other people. Not to make the trophies/game easier (which it obviously does) but i don't even think most people play co-op just to make the trophies/game easier.

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Co-op would have very little to do with this.

 

It's more to do with the type of person that would play these games.

 

Anyone who is in tune with games knows that the Souls series are prime examples of difficulty and challenge in games.  So you already attract a certain type of person with this.

 

That type of person who likes a challenge, will probably extend their like of challenges to other aspects of the community.  Such as trophies.

 

A Bloodborne player is much more likely to be interested in trophies than a GTAV player for example.  Bloodborne is a specialised niche title whilst GTAV is a mainstream, widely adopted title.

 

GTAV is easy to Platinum - but is much rarer because of the community it has in comparison to Bloodborne.

 

Don't fret about the rarity - everyone knows you're big and tough for completing them.

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The argument that is being made, is that co-op makes the achievement infinitely easier. If people could actually read what is being said, that would be a nice thing. I literally said in the post that obtaining 100% is not the hardest things I have done. The argument that I am making is that the rarity of trophies should reflect the individual's merrit, not a cheapened watered down version of it. Because by doing so, you put the merrit of someone who does co-op and therefore makes is considerably easier on the same level as someone who did it alone.

To address TheBeyond

 

- Nobody is speaking about "struggling" alone as if that is the merrit in itself. The merrit in itself is what I described above.

- Friendly NPCs are part of the game, they are not a concious entitity outside of the game, there inside the game.

- The rarity on PSN is rarer, but does not reflect the true rarity it should be.

Yet another person msunderstanding the term 'rarity'

Rarity does not have ANYTHING to do with difficulty.

If there was a gme where all you hd to do was load it up every day for a year straight it would have a very rrare platinum, but would still be easy.

Don't even get me started on The Last of Us Survivor mode being a 100% common, or Metro Last Light Hardcore, or the Arkham City DLC trophies.

Don't try to equate rarity to ease.

Madness lies that way.

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I see what you're saying by making it "infinitely" easier. And I can see somewhat eye to eye with your points in merit. Is it so much harder to do solo vs co-op? Depends, I guess. I've seen some garbage souls players in my time. Ultimately, yes, I would say it makes it easier. But is that really something that should be taken into consideration with trophy rarity? I daresay not. As a matter of fact, I think that would "cheapen" and "water down" the trophy list. Sure. It's impressive to do it alone. I did so with demon souls the first time around. And let me tell you something. It was hell. Especially being brand new to it, as it was the first of it's kind.. And especially considering I wasn't as good in general as I am now at videogames. When dark souls came out, I did the same thing. Four kings made me nearly throw my ps3 out my window. Going back in both games on multiple playthroughs and then allowing myself to play co-op.. The game was immensely easier. Yeah, I had already played through it before and so I already knew what to expect. But in general, yeah I give more respect to those very few that can solo the game. However, I will say that co-op not only enriches the experience of the game, it is also a facet of this game series that makes it so amazing. I don't think any souls fan could deny the fact that multiplayer (whether it's co-op or pvp) makes the game much more interesting.

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No point in discussing any further, it's clear what most of you guys stand for.

 

Can I just ask how you are the only one who know that when the trophies were programmed into the game, that the designers of the trophies did not have co op in mind?

 

If the trophies were meant to be "less cheap" (don't want to go off using words you didn't use) don't you think the requirement would have been to do them solo?

 

You just want more accolades and recognition because you claim you did it solo. How do we know you did it all solo? How you do you know what percentage of achievers got the trophies solo? I think you're making a lot of assumptions here.

Edited by DaivRules
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Because if you observe any stream with co op play, you see that it cheapens the experience. Why is this even a question? What do you think the reason is for most people to call onto other people? It's to help them, it's to lessen the difficulty.

FF14 is an MMO specifically designed to handle 8 man content. As someone who actually has completed all the savage content (except for the last tier), I think you are making a really silly comparison. Dark Souls can be completed solo, FF14 content can not. So comparing hardlocked co-op play to the opposite is a non argument.

 

But yes, your final remark is actually quite true. But you phrase it poorly. When I say 'proper', I don't mean it's the only legit way. I mean it's most certainly the hardest way and the question that I pose in relation to that is:

 

Should people share the same rarity status as me for putting in half the effort I had to put in? Well, the answer to me, as you can clearly tell, is no. People should not share the same rarity with me for putting in half the work. That's a perfectly reasonable argument to make and so far, nobody has truly shown me why this is a bad argument to be making.

Filmfanatic, and that would be fine. But I however, would much rather have the rarity percentage reflect the base of players putting their backs into it. Let's say that the percentage drops frop 17% to 15%. That would be perfectly fine to me, because it would achieve what I stand for. That rarity is a reflection of merrit, not of almost downright laziness.

 

They don't deserve the same rarity as you because you took the harder route while they took the smarter route? That's not how life works. Makes me think of the phrase "Work smarter, not harder.". It's fun to say that you took the more challenging route, but it doesn't change the fact you did the same thing they did. You sure are putting this on a pedestal for something that you said wasn't the hardest thing you've done. Next thing you'll be saying is those who use guides shouldn't get trophies either. 

 

The only complaint I'll even hear about this is that maybe things should be scaled or something when you have 2 players in the game. That's it. Anything else is just people trying to toot their own horns for something that really isn't all that impressive while they put others down. 

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Most of the game is made with online in mind...

 

High completion ratio is because the games are good and not really that hard. The trophy lists mostly require you to beat bosses etc, which most people do, so then the completion ratio goes up.

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Merit has one R, not two. :trollface:

Seems someone is a little butthurt that people actually utilize a feature of the game meant to make the game more enjoyable. Whine all you want bud, it's not gonna make it go away.

They don't deserve the same rarity as you because you took the harder route while they took the smarter route? That's not how life works. Makes me think of the phrase "Work smarter, not harder.". It's fun to say that you took the more challenging route, but it doesn't change the fact you did the same thing they did. You sure are putting this on a pedestal for something that you said wasn't the hardest thing you've done. Next thing you'll be saying is those who use guides shouldn't get trophies either. 
 
The only complaint I'll even hear about this is that maybe things should be scaled or something when you have 2 players in the game. That's it. Anything else is just people trying to toot their own horns for something that really isn't all that impressive while they put others down.


This.

Edited by Remi Remington
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Apparently, I came back to this, to again set some things straight. Because people really, really like their strawman arguments.

 

Ceaser Clown said: "Oh look, someone who thinks Souls games are "difficult". No, they're super easy."
Well, Ceaser, I have never made the claim that Souls games are hard, as a matter of fact, if you had some basic reading skills, in my initial post, you can clearly read that beating souls games is by no stretch of the imagination the hardest thing I have done. Why must I always correct people on their poor reading skills? It is not there for you to read? Can you not read? Do you have a predetermined notion of me that conflincts with reality? Seems so. Souls games are nowhere near as hard as some people make them out to be. And I never have made the claim that they are. So, just to set the record straight.

Someone else said: "the fact that you're upset over people playing a game together because of trophies is funny but sad... life will go on"

I am not getting upset over the fact that people play this game together. I have said multiple times that I do not mind people playing co-op, the thing that upsets me is that stupid people (truly sorry, but it has to be said), like yourself, who apparently can't read, make claims that are not true. That is what was upsetting me. Yes, what Happy said, I can live with. Due to my hostile approach (not conciously), people might not interpret it right. But at least he has the brains to get it after one clarification. I don't even know how many times I had to say this by now. As you can also see on my profile. I am not really a trophy hunter. I am a completionist. I have played 11 games. I average 1.4 trophies a day. I don't match your profile.

 

Somebody said: "Rarity does not have ANYTHING to do with difficulty."

I have never let rarity correlate directly with difficulty. I know that myself. It's not what I am saying (again). What I am saying is that the rarity does not reflect the number of players correctly in their approach. Namely the people doing it solo and the other people doing it co-op. Co-op players have an easier time and thus probably a higher completion rate. It does make the game easier. So in a sense, the rarity level in this game IS reflected in how people play this game. Who would have thought? But no, rarity does not always reflect difficulty. But on occassions, it does.

 

Somebody said: "They don't deserve the same rarity as you because you took the harder route while they took the smarter route? That's not how life works. Makes me think of the phrase "Work smarter, not harder."

Thank you for these wise words upon life. In my very inexperienced vision upon life I had no clue such a thing existed. Fortunately for me, we are talking about playing videogames. And playing videogames, with trophies, there is merrit to it. And how you achieve that merrit, is something which we can manipulate. This website can therefore also adjust to that manipulation. Because by your logic, people who make it easy for themselves and just cheat the trophies, they should probably also enjoy the same rarity. After all, that is how life works. That may be how life works, but it's not how justice works, fortunately for us.

_____________________

I know when I would read this topic again, it would be infested with people not able to read and simple and unfair points. The only one making good points and thought out points, is Happy. And I agree with you for the most part. I just put co-op up there as the cheapest way to clear these kinds of games, above magic users and above using NPCs to your advantage. But you are right, co-op is a part of this game and it should remain that way. I am really going to back out of this, though. Because I know there will - again - be tiresome people who can't read even if their lives depended on it. I know I have made some faulty thinking myself, but at least it's not after being told 400200 times, the argument that is being made.
I appreciate your feedback, I for one will clear this game solo because it gives the most accomplishing feeling. And I will share the same rarity percentage with people who did not and that's alright. Because that's just life, or so I heard.
Take care of yourselves and enjoy your weekend.

PS: the things I didn't quote, at least most of them, I found to be fair and well balanced points. xxdmcgee2288xx his response for example I enjoyed. Even though I also have to make the remark that in no way I am opting that we get rid of co op. That would be silly. What I was opting for, is that co op players, which to me is the all time low skill player in this game, should not be receiving the same awards people do who play solo. Even magic users, and also people who use NPCs to their advantage. Because to me this is acceptable to be put up there. To me this is within the spectrum that is acceptable ways to achieve these things. If co-op was created in such a way that both players have an equally as hard time as solo players, we would have a completely different story.

  Edited by Starlove-
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The fact you're constantly calling people stupid and insisting they can't read simply because they disagree with you makes it hard to talk about this with you anyway lol. Glad to see you agree that scaling would fix this whole thing, though.

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Instead of constantly calling people illiterate, I feel that your time would be better spent on writing a letter to From Software telling them all of this with your superior writing skills.

But I have to agree co-op should be harder, I played Bloodborne co-op once and the boss died faster than your reasoning on this thread.

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We are discussing if an INCREASED lowering of rarity as a result of co op should be a thing. We are discussing if co op, and therefore making the game considerably easier, has the same right and same merrit as someone who did it the 'proper' way.

 

It has the same right. There is no cheap way between co-op and solo unless someone hacked in anyway for obvious reasons, but that's a different topic.

 

Both ways were included in the game completely legit, and so, players are allowed to play the game however they see fit between these two.

 

If it had the option to be done in co-op, solo was never meant to be the only proper way to beat these games.

 

To prove my point, co-op has existed since the first one, Demon's Souls, came out.

 

P.S: Merit is completely subjective, and the trophy list was never meant to take it into account imo. Merit is earned after you provide sufficient proofs you did it in a way that deserves respect, as it always has been with videogames, not only because you got the trophies.

Edited by Lord_of_Ra
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I have consistenly given examples why I have been misrespresented almost in every single post that critiqued me. Ironically enough, Milan attempts to moan and AGAIN falsely represents my view. Because I said Happy is someone who read what I said and gave a good solid reply. I also said other people who I did not directly quoted gave a solid reply. So way to be silly again, Milan. Is there no end to your comprehensive reading failures?
Someone who is dogmatic does not change his or her views. I have through the course of this thread. I have said on multiple occassions that I agreed with various points throughout this topic, in particular with Happy and the other guy who's name I have forgotten.

So can you please stop falsely representing me now? It's getting embarrasing.
Lord_of_Ra another example. I have said about five times now, that people can play the game in whichever way they please. Why is this being brought forward? What other reason is there than not reading what is being said?
The subjectivity of merit does not mean that you can not define objective parameters that sustantiate what it means. It's the same with morality. Morality is subjective, but that does not mean we can not discuss with is good, what is bad and why it is so. But your last point is fair enough. And for me, merit in this game, is much more a thing when you solo it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with holding this view.
You attack my reasoning, but you can't point out which part of my reasoning is bad.
Happy did this, saying I was a bit hypocritical with regards to co-op, NPCs in game and magic users. But I clarified saying that co-op to me is the lowest point and the only thing I would exclude trophies for.
What other reasoning of mine is faulty? Saying it's faulty in itself is no argument and in return faulty logic. I am astonished that some of you people can accuse and in the same bloody sentence be guilty of you what accuse people off.

But alright, it's getting a bit out of hand, and much of it is my fault. Again, have a nice weekend. I will not return. I have made my points again and again and I am tired of having to clarify, and put the record straight.

But Milan, ultimately, should take a good look at himself, for contradicting himself in the same sentences where he accuses me. It's absolutely amazing that you accuse me of thinking everyone misrespresents me, while literally misrespresenting me. Believe me, it's very tiresome for me to have to point it all out, over and over again. Maybe, if you had so much fun, you should read the comments again and realise that what I say not incorrect. People have been misresprenting my views, people have been arguing with things I never claimed. It's not my error that I have to point it out and it sure as hell doesn't make me arrogant for having to point it out. Although people do perceive it as such. Because you're a bit of a prick when you constantly tell people they are wrong and why they are wrong.

I never had any ill intentions, at all. But the constant stupidity and downright strawmanning has drained me so much. This while also becoming painfully aware that the stupidity included me in some posts as well. Because, again, happy made a very straightforward and thoughtful reply, showing me my inconsistencies, or rather, lack of clarification.

Edited by Starlove-
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The reason completion percentage in this site is so high is not co-op. It's because people in this site are trophy hunters and quite a bit of trophy hunters are hardcore gamers who happen to like Souls games a lot and unless someone constantly summons another person throughout his entire play through from the beginning of each level, I don't see how it devalues the platinum. Most summon signs will be near bosses and if you've managed to make it that far you're a good player. Platinum doesn't just require beating the game once, you have to do million other things and I don't see how someone can boost the entire game. Who will be willing to spend 50 hours with another person just to get them through the entire game and get them platinum. I haven't read the entirety of the other posts.

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I had prepared a wall of text explaining once more to Origame that this is not the thing in question that is being discussed.
But even though I don't agree with Paige at all on most of the things, the final point, however, is true and well made and I can't really add anything to it. Merit is also an individual practice. Thanks for your response.
 

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I think your assumption that the platinum percentage is high because of coOp is your problem bro. The souls games trophies are easy to get its as simple as that, just because you think ppl should struggle playing solo doesnt mean they will. Out of the "46000" ppl who got the platinum in BB how many do u think actually needed to use coop lol? I doubt the coOp platinum ratio is above 50%. Get good. Or get a plat thats actually tough to get.

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you may think it cheapens how hard it is but your wrong all people different, just because you beat the game solo does not make you god and start telling people that they are weaker then you for making the game easier, so what a games a game and we play it so we can have Fun. Key word here is "Fun" that is what games are made for not for the op asshats who think their shit don't smell but for everyone to enjoy it and if you don't like it well no one is telling you to stay now are they.

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