RNG in games

[FeralTurtle]

Hey everyone, I'll just be honest and say now that i'm kind of writing this to blow off some recent frustration, but I thought it would also be an interesting topic. As a heavy RPG/JRPG gamer, I encounter lots of RNG, and its often not a pleasant thing. The most common and typical of these instances are randomized item drops, and the frustration of not being able to get an item or certain quantity because of low drop rates. I could go on about how many different times RNG has been a nuisance, but the point of this is that I want to know how other people feel about it and experiences.

 

-Can you recall a time RNG gave you happiness? If not, can you think of a time it bothered you and what could've been done instead?

-What do you consider "good" and "bad" RNG? (For me bad RNG is anything that hinders your progression in a game, when it could be put as a side activity. It's okay when it's something like opening loot chests since you know you're gambling.)

-Do you think many games (especially RPGs/JRPGS) do this as "lazy game design"? Perhaps because the amount of playtime hours would significantly decrease without it? (This is an odd thought: Imagine an RPG without or almost no grinding at all, does such a game exist, or is it possible?)

 

Sorry if this is a kind of vague topic, mainly trying to get things off my head. Just kinda frustrates me because almost all the games I love playing have this issue to some extent. I know a perfect game can't exist, but I think it's still interesting to think about what other possibilities there could be to this mechanic. I just realized the application of RNG may vary between game genre, so for the record I write this mainly with rpg games in mind, but still, feel free to list instances/games that "do it right" and just share your thoughts in general.

 

[skateak]

Only time I was really happy with RNG was a long time ago (7-9 years ago) when I was playing Diablo 2. I was doing Chaos Sanctuary runs and I got a really rare shield for a paladin that was called Herald of Zakarum . It was the shield all paladins wanted so they can do the Pandemonium Event and it can fetch a pretty high price. Another time was when I was doing Baal runs and he dropped a really good helmet called a Shako that literally everyone in the game wanted, real name was Harlequin Crest. 

 

Man I loved that game. Haven't been able to find a game that I liked to play as much as Diablo 2. 

[ShadowStar83x]

RNG sucks!

[RevengeancePrime]

I don't think I've ever seen RNG used to improve a game. I do agree that it can add a great deal of playtime to most of the games that do have it, although this added playtime isn't necessarily enjoyable. You'll usually find yourself farming the same locations and enemies time and time again because they yield the best results. I don't mind RNG when it has little to no impact on the game; such is the case with The Witcher 3. 

Edited January 13, 2017 by ObliviousSenpai

[FeralTurtle]

1 hour ago, ObliviousSenpai said:

I don't think I've ever seen RNG used to improve a game. I do agree that it can add a great deal of playtime to most of the games that do have it, although this added playtime isn't necessarily enjoyable. You'll usually find yourself farming the same locations and enemies time and time again because they yield the best results. I don't mind RNG when it has little to no impact on the game; such is the case with The Witcher 3. 

I've been browsing some similar reddit topics, and I've seen an interesting mention of RNG actually raising the skill ceilings of certain games. An example I found was with XCOM, a tactical game I've never personally played, but basically some people were saying is that the randomness is a big part of the game and keeps it from being stale. Not having a guarantee that a certain action will succeed prompts you to adapt and come up with a play that could turn the tide, possibly putting you in a position better than before. There's alot of other things RNG does for this particular game, overall for the better, but that's just one general example. Also, I think some card games, do a similar thing, and it's basically a core mechanic.

 

Though for RPGs I haven't really seen much good/innovative application of it, at least off the top of my head I can mention Palace of the Dead from FFXIV, which is a side dungeon with randomized floors and it helps it become less static. Of course more could've been done since it's still mostly just killing enemies and looting chests as you progress. Unfortunately I haven't seen much positive RNG in MMOs since there are very common time sinks farming for low drop rate stuff or overpowered cash shop items ruining f2p games.

 

Haha, perhaps I'm thinking too much, but there's really alot to talk about when it comes to RNG, since there's so many different ways to apply it, for good or worse.

 

[Nightstream88]

The rng hates me in Animal Crossing and Pokemon I know that much.
Been trying to get Desert Vista Wallpaper for hours from Saharah and no luck so far
and Pokemon Sun & Moon Chaining hidden abilities take forever as well.

[RevengeancePrime]

11 hours ago, FeralTurtle said:

I've been browsing some similar reddit topics, and I've seen an interesting mention of RNG actually raising the skill ceilings of certain games. An example I found was with XCOM, a tactical game I've never personally played, but basically some people were saying is that the randomness is a big part of the game and keeps it from being stale. Not having a guarantee that a certain action will succeed prompts you to adapt and come up with a play that could turn the tide, possibly putting you in a position better than before.

That's very interesting, I hadn't even thought about that. RNG in this sense can be pretty cool because of that necessity to adapt.

[Jak]

This topic has depth, and im really too lazy to add any real depth discussion value since theres SOOOO MUCH to say, so.....  Ill say Uncharted 3 DLC still has the worse RNG Ive played to date. Dragon Ball Xenoverse, Rocket League, Borderlands, The Legend of Korra, and whatever else Ive played have never came remotely close to U3's BS ass RNG. Its factually the worse listed game here, especially given the fact the rng is also tied to online play and cooperative online play. The length of the related rng cases also cannot be exploited like in most of the games I listed (in Borderlands you can use hackable weapons or really strong weapons to kill bosses quickly, or reset game for loot crates. In TLOK, you can upgrade your abilities to deal with enemies faster, or skip em and go for area-crates). In U3, you have to finish and go through the waves/levels with complete fairness-limitation (too lazy for better term). Ive been playing Uncharted 3 since launch for yrs, and Ive been max presteige and rank for yrs (I have massive creditibility). Every other rng game Ive listed Ive 100%ted in months, not even a year. This is why I get on ppl's ass for complaining about DBX (ppl hype this game up to be among the worse rng in history) and certain other games, cause its not crap compared to U3's BS.

 

With that said, RNG is mostly executed poorly in games, even after all these generations. It may never be mastered, its gotten better in some cases, but its never been executed masterfully like the combination of new genres in one game, or the perfection of a seamless 3D openworld, etc. Rng may never be perfected. Maybe only when it has little mechanical relevance in a game aka as (small) rng elements, or when a game is so simply designed that rng wont have any major drawbacks. Otherwise, AAA budget games wont have near perfect rng (though Xenoverse 2 has did a much, much better job improving from X1).

Edited January 14, 2017 by Mar

[FeralTurtle]

12 hours ago, Mar said:

With that said, RNG is mostly executed poorly in games, even after all these generations. It may never be mastered, its gotten better in some cases, but its never been executed masterfully like the combination of new genres in one game, or the perfection of a seamless 3D openworld, etc. Rng may never be perfected. Maybe only when it has little mechanical relevance in a game aka as (small) rng elements, or when a game is so simply designed that rng wont have any major drawbacks. Otherwise, AAA budget games wont have near perfect rng (though Xenoverse 2 has did a much, much better job improving from X1).

Yeah I kinda agree here, I feel like RNG is only good when a game has it as a core gameplay mechanic or is pretty much a small thing on the side for other types of games. I can't help but wonder how many games would be without rng, because some of them seem to rely on it heavily to increase playtime but not in a good way, especially mmos (ex: grinding for items). But again this is a big topic and there's many different factors to consider than just rng itself such as the game and how its applied. I know it's hard, but I do kind of wish to see games have more fun uses with RNG rather than it being something getting in the way most of the time.

[Yami]

I don't mind RNG in singleplayer games since it gives an even better feeling when you do actually get what you're aiming for.

 

However... There's also the type of RNG when it comes to playing an online game where you can do a range of damage (Like In World Of Tanks for example) or something alike. Sometimes you're 1 on 1 with barely any health remaining, yet you should be able to kill your opponent with one shot. If that shot bounces or hits it's lowest potential of damage due to bad RNG and he kills you afterwards is just total heartbreak

[FeralTurtle]

3 hours ago, Yami said:

I don't mind RNG in singleplayer games since it gives an even better feeling when you do actually get what you're aiming for.

 

However... There's also the type of RNG when it comes to playing an online game where you can do a range of damage (Like In World Of Tanks for example) or something alike. Sometimes you're 1 on 1 with barely any health remaining, yet you should be able to kill your opponent with one shot. If that shot bounces or hits it's lowest potential of damage due to bad RNG and he kills you afterwards is just total heartbreak

It's true that it may feel good to get something rng based that's rare, but at least for me instead of joy I get a feeling more like "Finally that's out of the way" because really I did nothing to earn it, I just got lucky. I guess it's okay if it's like gambling for minor items like cosmetics, but if it's something like I gotta farm rare materials for this weapon so I can progress in the main story, it's a bother.

 

And yeah about that concept of a game having random damage ranges, that's pretty annoying unless they somehow manage to balance it. A game I mentioned earlier had this kind of RNG to keep the game dynamic, and it was still pretty fair. The RNG could put you in a bad spot, but the game also gave you opportunities to save yourself and possibly give you a better advantage if you make a clutch play.

But then there's things like this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU8RgoKW9yo (skip to 0:35)

basically someone got one shotted due to a lucky crit. This can easily be fixed by just nerfing damage numbers though. As long as you have a reasonable opportunity to make a comeback when it comes to fights with rng damage in games, then for the most part it should be fine.

 

[AuzzieWingman]

RNG is both a blessing and a curse. That's the easiest way to sum it up.

 

RNG helps impose challenge for a player to overcome. Low currency in RPGs, the need for health recovery, the use of items in Smash that tournaments don't like because Smash Pros don't like having a fun time etc.

 

Companies, however, are ultimately trying to push people into buying microtransactions in order to overcome RNG obstacles, and it's lucrative as fuck. It's practically gambling. RNG ultimately is time versus safisfaction, and they'll easily prey on that with the likes of loot boxes, bundles and other whatnot. Just wait for the next Overwatch event. Pretty much every Overwatch youtuber plus Gaijin Goomba will fork out a chunk out of their wallet just to maybe get that new skin hotness in 100 chances... Then they'll buy the ones they didn't get with in game currency anyway. Let's not even talk about CS Lotto.

 

Blessing and curse. Fuck you Monster Hunter.

[FeralTurtle]

13 hours ago, AuzzieWingman said:

Companies, however, are ultimately trying to push people into buying microtransactions in order to overcome RNG obstacles, and it's lucrative as fuck. It's practically gambling. RNG ultimately is time versus safisfaction, and they'll easily prey on that with the likes of loot boxes, bundles and other whatnot. Just wait for the next Overwatch event. Pretty much every Overwatch youtuber plus Gaijin Goomba will fork out a chunk out of their wallet just to maybe get that new skin hotness in 100 chances... Then they'll buy the ones they didn't get with in game currency anyway. Let's not even talk about CS Lotto.

Yeah it's pretty annoying with companies do that, but it's usually with AAA games though. Also happens with many P2W MMOs, which is something no one really likes. It sucks when I have to spend money because a company made it so that buying certain things with cash is (much) faster than grinding in game, so people with jobs are almost obligated to buy them. It's not a good feeling to feel forced to spend money on a game.

Cash shops, when included in games, should mainly be for cosmetics and most importantly not give an advantage over others who don't have money. This problem could be fixed with many MMOs if they simply went subscription-based, that way companies have a steady flow of money and players know they are committed to the game enough to keep sustaining the subscription, and even with a sub-based game people are willing to spend money on cash shop items because they love the game so much.

As for single player and console games in general it's a bit harder because they don't last as long as mmos in playtime hours. Still, there's better ways than manipulating the game to earn money, such as releasing new content/DLC mixed with a cash shop that doesn't exist to give unfair advantages. "But then if you simply just have to release new content, let's just do that instead", some companies may say. Then that's how you get those yearly release games, which started out good but then became worse with each release because it became less about making a good game and more about profit.

This is a kind of topic I usually don't talk about, because I usually don't play those type of games. I'm not saying all AAA games are bad, but I can't deny these unfortunate happenings to certain games because of companies becoming corrupt/greedy. It's usually a pretty simple thing to fix, but such events happen when things become popular. Anyways, in the end, there's alot of good games, companies, and people out there that stay true to what video games are all about. It's funny, a decade ago I don't think I would be writing something like this, but whatevs, some things you can't ignore though.

[Fierce_DeityX1]

Borderlands is great when it comes to RNG, especially with boss fights.

personally I like RNG on occasion, since I'm a fan of grinding, since it allows me to listen to creepypastas or something else while playing.

[OneDeepMexican]

didn't read, but going off by the title, I feel you

hate that crap too

[FawltyPowers]

I don't mind RNG. I played World of Warcraft for 4 years and in that time raided for a year. If you've never raided in WoW before there was a loot table for each boss in each raid and you would earn random loot from that table from said raid boss once a week (depending on the difficulty). For some this would be frustrating, for me it was actually exciting, expectation was insane, to see a piece of loot drop after farming it for a month or more was epic. Raid boss gear was BOP (Bind on Pick-up) so you had to have defeated that boss to have a chance at the loot, you couldn't trade it to someone else later.

 

I remember solo farming the Warglaives of Azzinoth for over a year and only ever got the OH to drop, but the expectation each week was always the same.

 

Also RNG is good when it's a level playing field, in other words as long as RNG is the same for everyone and not that someone is able to get certain loot by for example purchasing it for real money. When that happens I lose interest in RNG.

 

For example one of the games on my list to start this year is Demon's Souls. I aim to do this all offline solo and have read that it can take around 100 hours because of RNG, however, if you know someone with the correct gear and can help, you can have it done in a couple of hours! To each their own but having everything handed to you on a plate takes the fun away, once you have everything what's left to do!

[HaSoOoN-MHD]

RNG blows to be honest but there is a certain satisfaction to acquiring rare items. In Dark Souls II for instance I grinded the hell out of a few armor sets beating some brutally low drop rates. Was it worth it? not really since I almost had no use for said armor but it made me feel special in a weird way. 

 

When they remastered the game they put that armor in a easily accessible chest or some such. Fuck you From!

[Edunstar84]

I don't think I've ever encountered good RNG before. Maybe halfway decent RNG, if such a RNG exists. I'll come back in a couple of weeks when I complete FF3. We'll see if I am indeed lucky enough for have good RNG. 

 

But imagine for a moment that the RNG in FF13 was good, and all you had to do is just grind a bit. It would definitely decrease the plat time.

[GarryKE]

I can only say RNG is good for MMOs. I remember years ago going back to the dungeon daily on World of Warcraft for months until I got the raven lord bird mount, but that was fair enough. Rare objects like that - even in many single player games - should be "rare". But RNG willy-nilly is a cheap way to add longevity to a game that is otherwise quite solid.

 

For instance, No Man's Sky. A game I loved until I started trying to get my last trophy for the platinum. Nowhere I looked, no matter how long I spent, I couldn't find the last species of creature needed for my tenth fully discovered planets - the last of many more planets I had to abandon after more than two-to-three hours wasted per planet! I can understand rarity but I can't appreciate pointless and too low success rates.

 

Then there was Dragonball Xenoverse. You would defeat the opponents in their certain ways (Krillin dies by Frieza, etc) which would - or would not - trigger an additional part to the battle (Frieza powering up, Goku appearing, etc). Once you had defeated those settings you may - or may not - get the item, ability or whatever you have been farming for hours. But at the start of the whole fight you encounter one of the guys who supposedly drop the dragonballs - which you need - only, they may or may not drop them. That game was just layers of RNG.

 

 

In terms of good RNG, though, I can't remember what it was but there was a game with a post-story optional dungeon. I think it was Star Ocean: The Last Hope. The floors on each visit would be randomised. That is the sort of thing I really do enjoy. It's just a shame developers can't create even more bosses so even they are randomised and avoids static repetition. RNG should be used for diversity and increasing challenge; not repetition. Nowadays if I read a review and it mentions RNG I may - or may not - go out and buy it out of principle. It's usually a bad thing.

[FeralTurtle]

On 1/28/2017 at 5:42 PM, GarryKE said:

I can only say RNG is good for MMOs. I remember years ago going back to the dungeon daily on World of Warcraft for months until I got the raven lord bird mount, but that was fair enough. Rare objects like that - even in many single player games - should be "rare". But RNG willy-nilly is a cheap way to add longevity to a game that is otherwise quite solid.

 

For instance, No Man's Sky. A game I loved until I started trying to get my last trophy for the platinum. Nowhere I looked, no matter how long I spent, I couldn't find the last species of creature needed for my tenth fully discovered planets - the last of many more planets I had to abandon after more than two-to-three hours wasted per planet! I can understand rarity but I can't appreciate pointless and too low success rates.

 

Then there was Dragonball Xenoverse. You would defeat the opponents in their certain ways (Krillin dies by Frieza, etc) which would - or would not - trigger an additional part to the battle (Frieza powering up, Goku appearing, etc). Once you had defeated those settings you may - or may not - get the item, ability or whatever you have been farming for hours. But at the start of the whole fight you encounter one of the guys who supposedly drop the dragonballs - which you need - only, they may or may not drop them. That game was just layers of RNG.

 

 

In terms of good RNG, though, I can't remember what it was but there was a game with a post-story optional dungeon. I think it was Star Ocean: The Last Hope. The floors on each visit would be randomised. That is the sort of thing I really do enjoy. It's just a shame developers can't create even more bosses so even they are randomised and avoids static repetition. RNG should be used for diversity and increasing challenge; not repetition. Nowadays if I read a review and it mentions RNG I may - or may not - go out and buy it out of principle. It's usually a bad thing.

Yeah gotta agree here, especially with your last statement about RNG being something best used for spicing up gameplay instead of making it repetitive. With all these posts, it becomes easier for me to see that RNG is an element that is hard to pull off right because it seems alot of games seem to make certain concepts revolve around RNG rather than making it something that enhances the experience, basically being lazy to bump up playtime rather than being creative with it. Then again successful application of it is rather rare, probably because it is a rather difficult thing to do and it depends on many things. However, there still have been fun applications of it that I mentioned before (certain strategy games and random generated floors in dungeons). But yeah, it's usually a bad thing because there's usually too much of it, at least that's how I see it.

[GarryKE]

RNG works brilliantly in MMOs. You shouldn't be guaranteed higher tier equipment from raids in them and, frankly, when they "improved" the loot system to give more equal opportunity to all those involved, it just felt wrong. Rather, the way it always worked, by "working" for it, had no issues. Sure, it takes a guild a couple weeks to clear a heroic raid for their realm firsts but that's just how it should be for that sort of game.

 

In single player games though, there just isn't many decent enough uses of it. There are ideas but usually fan ideas are ignored because fans are the whiners.

 

In my opinion, the best application of RNG is to guarantee a drop: for an item with a 25% drop chance, you can kill up to three enemies for it. By the fourth you'll have it. For an item with a 1% drop chance, you can kill up to ninety-nine enemies before you're guaranteed it on your hundredth. But that system can easily be misdeveloped just for the sake of grinding - and probably would be by Japanese RPG developers.

[FeralTurtle]

Generally I think it's true that RNG is works well for mmos and is harder for single player games to benefit from. I guess it's mainly because mmos need some sort of grind/RNG to be the timesink they are, it's pretty much needed in mmos, there's not much of a problem as long as there isn't too much grinding. Things like having a guaranteed chance after x amount of tries may be a good fix in some instances, would definitely help reduce the frustration grinding for certain things. Having a solid time cap on grinding would help games step up in having the other ways to increase playtime, such as putting in new content maybe even randomized dungeons with the fun kind of RNG.

[GarryKE]

As I was scrolling through this forum for anything interesting to post on I had a thought. There are other examples of "good" RNG in games. Like DA:I or other games that involve farming for materials like herbs and metals. A simple but an easily overlooked example!

Edited February 9, 2017 by GarryKE