Quality Control

[Sir-Syzygy]

Holy video games Batman! This forum topic seems to have exploded overnight.

Remember to play nice boys and girls and keep a level head.

Edited October 15, 2017 by Crispy78923
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[Dr_Mayus]

15 hours ago, ElBolovo said:

The more the better to me to be honest. I played some mobile games converted to console, like Riptide GP2 that I paid about 1 dollar in a sale, and I'm quite satisfied with this deal. 

I think these games would be free if they could run ads but as this is impossible with the Sony rules, with a fair price, I see not problem with it. You will only need to research your games before buying it, as you always should anyway. 

No, you want quality over quantity.

 

The problem is if you just start loading the store with garbage you get a Wii situation where you walk into a Walmart and 90% of their cabinet is filled with shovelware and it is impossible to find a good game among them.

 

If you surround yourself with garbage...people see you as garbage.

[Sir-Syzygy]

For the record, I'd like to say that indie games and the trash I'm talking about are NOT one and the same.

Edited March 7, 2018 by Crispy78923

[veemonsticker]

25 minutes ago, SnowxSakura said:

I think I see how it became recommended.

 

Some quality control is really needed, or the store will end up like steam.

Is that a bad thing though? Some indie titles are indeed not well made and just suck overal, but to say quality control is needed? Sony doesn't look at it that way... whatever makes them $, they have no problem putting a "working" game onto the store for a profit and you'd be surprised how much they make off these indie titles, so that's why there's a market for this and it won't disappear anytime soon.

[SnowxSakura]

Just now, veemonsticker said:

Is that a bad thing though? Some indie titles are indeed not well made and just suck overal, but to say quality control is needed? Sony doesn't look at it that way... whatever makes them $, they have no problem putting a "working" game onto the store for a profit and you'd be surprised how much they make off these indie titles, so that's why there's a market for this and it won't disappear anytime soon.

A lot of it could be fixed if the store had the "keyboard" style search function like when you type a message to someone. That's been a major complaint I've had since this store launched. The for you section doesn't work at all either

[veemonsticker]

2 minutes ago, SnowxSakura said:

A lot of it could be fixed if the store had the "keyboard" style search function like when you type a message to someone. That's been a major complaint I've had since this store launched. The for you section doesn't work at all either

I guess an on-screen keyboard would be an ideal improvement, who knows, they might add one in sooner or later. I personally don't have an issue with the current search function. It works and that's all that matters.

[totallycrushed]

23 minutes ago, veemonsticker said:

Is that a bad thing though? Some indie titles are indeed not well made and just suck overal, but to say quality control is needed? Sony doesn't look at it that way... whatever makes them $, they have no problem putting a "working" game onto the store for a profit and you'd be surprised how much they make off these indie titles, so that's why there's a market for this and it won't disappear anytime soon.

History will repeat itself sooner or later thinking like this.

[veemonsticker]

Just now, totallycrushed said:

History will repeat itself sooner or later thinking like this.

Alright, well how would you put it then?

[totallycrushed]

8 minutes ago, veemonsticker said:

Alright, well how would you put it then?

QC is definitely needed so the market wouldn't crash again. This is one of the reasons why Nintendo was so successful after the crash . Quantity overburdens consumers and when there's too much of merchandise, it won't move. That's why Atari threw their stock in to a goddamn landfill.

 

While these are digital games we're talking about on PSN, it doesn't mean it couldn't happen. When the storefront is full of shit, no one wants to go through it to find something. This has been pointed out in many posts in this thread earlier.

Edited January 26, 2017 by totallycrushed

[veemonsticker]

1 minute ago, totallycrushed said:

QC is definitely needed so the market wouldn't crash again. This is one of the reasons why Nintendo was so successful after the crash . Quality overburdens consumers and when there's too much of merchandise, it won't move. That's why Atari threw their stock in to a goddamn landfill.

 

While these are digital games we're talking about on PSN, it doesn't mean it couldn't happen. When the storefront is full of shit, no one wants to go through it to find something. This has been pointed out in many posts in this thread earlier.

Do you think they'd personally care or do anything about it though? because from what I've heard, they don't have a very good reputation in regards to their customers needs and wants. Does Valve listen? Does any company that has an e-store? none of them do, it's profits stamped on their foreheads, not QC. As much as I agree with you, companies would not, especially if $ is all their interested in, and it usually is.

[cris3f]

Sony doesn't give a crap about quality or numbers of games. For them it's moving boxes (read PS4s) and keep getting money from people who want to play Fifa and GTA online, which are the overwhelming majority of users. So quality or number of titles it's mostly irrelevant to them since they get 95% of their money from the same type of players. They don't have quality control and they don't care, it's not needed anyway. Just read any comments on PSN's blog from Sony (none...) and you'll get the picture. Players that buy indies, and other titles besides the 10 or 20 AAA titles are redundant to them.

So games quantity will probably go up, as small developers try desperately to make money, and quality down because budgets are always shrinking, and there's no omelet without eggs.

Stupid thing is that these 95% are the players that jump of the boat at the first opportunity, if there's newer or apparently nicer waters.

Edited January 26, 2017 by cris3f

[angelgrievous]

1 hour ago, Dr_Mayus said:

No, you want quality over quantity.

 

The problem is if you just start loading the store with garbage you get a Wii situation where you walk into a Walmart and 90% of their cabinet is filled with shovelware and it is impossible to find a good game among them.

 

If you surround yourself with garbage...people see you as garbage.

I'm going to chime in here and only quoted you because it helps cut through some needless explanation.  Nothing personal.  As a consumer/collector/owner, yes quality over quantity is what you would want given quality is what you are going for, but for a business, not so much.  Let's not pretend that the majority of shoppers on PSN don't know what is there.  They know exactly what they are either: 1. looking for, or 2. know what they like.  I would wager that everyone on this forum is at least somewhat invested in the culture of videogames and therefore knows what is considered good or not or what they might like or not.  Saying finding a good game might be impossible is a bit of a stretch considering.  That being said, Sony, not unlike any other business wants their consumers to have as much content/product available for them as possible.  When I go to the grocery store I can buy Tide laundry detergent or I can buy Family Choice detergent.  It's  all up to me, choices.  Just because there are what some would consider "trash" games on PSN doesn't mean that is all there is and like I said before those who shop on PSN know what they are there for and can make that decision.  As for anyone else who might stumble on PSN and look for a game the store makes screenshots, videos, and even reviews available to anyone.  It's no different that shopping on Amazon.   All of this however is based on a silly video that some guy made about the quality of games on PSN.  It's just some guys opinion.  No one is ever going to say Sony is garbage because of a few games that suck or are trash on PSN, because it is just a few. Hell, in my opinion some games on there that people adore are trash.  I don't make videos about it though.  No need to break out the boots or shovels because there isn't really that much to dig through and there probably never will be.  No need for Quality control on Sony's end and no need for everyone to get riled up about it.  They're just games.  

[Dr_Mayus]

7 minutes ago, angelgrievous said:

I'm going to chime in here and only quoted you because it helps cut through some needless explanation.  Nothing personal.  As a consumer/collector/owner, yes quality over quantity is what you would want given quality is what you are going for, but for a business, not so much.  Let's not pretend that the majority of shoppers on PSN don't know what is there.  They know exactly what they are either: 1. looking for, or 2. know what they like.  I would wager that everyone on this forum is at least somewhat invested in the culture of videogames and therefore knows what is considered good or not or what they might like or not.  Saying finding a good game might be impossible is a bit of a stretch considering.  That being said, Sony, not unlike any other business wants their consumers to have as much content/product available for them as possible.  When I go to the grocery store I can buy Tide laundry detergent or I can buy Family Choice detergent.  It's  all up to me, choices.  Just because there are what some would consider "trash" games on PSN doesn't mean that is all there is and like I said before those who shop on PSN know what they are there for and can make that decision.  As for anyone else who might stumble on PSN and look for a game the store makes screenshots, videos, and even reviews available to anyone.  It's no different that shopping on Amazon.   All of this however is based on a silly video that some guy made about the quality of games on PSN.  It's just some guys opinion.  No one is ever going to say Sony is garbage because of a few games that suck or are trash on PSN, because it is just a few. Hell, in my opinion some games on there that people adore are trash.  I don't make videos about it though.  No need to break out the boots or shovels because there isn't really that much to dig through and there probably never will be.  No need for Quality control on Sony's end and no need for everyone to get riled up about it.  They're just games.  

That is a lot of words. Paragraphs would be your friend.

 

Here is my counter argument. If a consumer gets burnt on a few bad indy games it may sour them on the whole experience and they may end up only spending their money on big AAA titles they know are "safe". They might associate "bad" with PSN and that isn't what Sony wants. That is why PSN, XBLA, Steam etc need to have quality control because you don't want your customers associating your Brand with low-end product.

 

It is kind of why LuLuLemon doesn't make XXXL clothing because they only want slim athletic people showing off their clothes. It is why Alcohol companies only have attractive people in their commercials having fun instead of a fat guy sitting on his couch drinking a beer.

 

Perception in the market place is HUGE and people only have so much money to spend on entertainment. If you soil your brand name too many times people will just spend it elsewhere.

[angelgrievous]

6 minutes ago, Dr_Mayus said:

That is a lot of words. Paragraphs would be your friend.

 

Here is my counter argument. If a consumer gets burnt on a few bad indy games it may sour them on the whole experience and they may end up only spending their money on big AAA titles they know are "safe". They might associate "bad" with PSN and that isn't what Sony wants. That is why PSN, XBLA, Steam etc need to have quality control because you don't want your customers associating your Brand with low-end product.

 

It is kind of why LuLuLemon doesn't make XXXL clothing because they only want slim athletic people showing off their clothes. It is why Alcohol companies only have attractive people in their commercials having fun instead of a fat guy sitting on his couch drinking a beer.

 

Perception in the market place is HUGE and people only have so much money to spend on entertainment. If you soil your brand name too many times people will just spend it elsewhere.

Friends are overrated.

 

My point was that anyone shopping on PSN is more than likely already familiar with the Sony brand and know's what they are looking for.  Most "casual" shoppers are going to brick and mortar stores for their games.  Those that aren't are treated to videos, screenshots, and consumer reviews for the products they are looking at. They are more than capable of making an informed decision based off of that information, it's no different than any other online retailer.  There is no need for Sony to implement quality control. 

 

Just because a beer company has skinny pretty people in their commercials doesn't mean the fat guy on the couch isn't going to buy their beer.  If he likes it already, he's going to buy it.  If he walks into a store he will have options on what beer he wants.  Not just what some consider the good stuff.

 

Playstation is a well recognized brand and as I said before, no matter the amount of "trash" that is on PSN, no one is going to consider those games as a reflection of the company or the quality of material they produce.

[Dr_Mayus]

21 minutes ago, angelgrievous said:

Friends are overrated.

 

My point was that anyone shopping on PSN is more than likely already familiar with the Sony brand and know's what they are looking for.  Most "casual" shoppers are going to brick and mortar stores for their games.  Those that aren't are treated to videos, screenshots, and consumer reviews for the products they are looking at. They are more than capable of making an informed decision based off of that information, it's no different than any other online retailer.  There is no need for Sony to implement quality control. 

 

Just because a beer company has skinny pretty people in their commercials doesn't mean the fat guy on the couch isn't going to buy their beer.  If he likes it already, he's going to buy it.  If he walks into a store he will have options on what beer he wants.  Not just what some consider the good stuff.

 

Playstation is a well recognized brand and as I said before, no matter the amount of "trash" that is on PSN, no one is going to consider those games as a reflection of the company or the quality of material they produce.

I think every company needs quality control. Why wouldn't you want a company only putting the best out for their customer?

 

Also you missed my point about perception. Yes the fat guy on the couch is going to buy the beer because he sees good looking people having fun...but I guarantee you sales would go down for a company if they put a bunch of ugly fat people in it doing the same things as the young attractive people.

 

It is why when Nintendo released their trailer for Switch they used these individuals instead of your average Nintendo fan. I guarantee none of those people are having roof parties and bring their Switch over for everyone to play (and yes I worked for Blockbuster for 9 years, EB for 1 year and Playstation for 3 years...I know what an average Nintendo fan looks like)

 

 

So in the end I expect companies I like to have some control over their content and you are OK with every Tom, Dick and Harry flooding the market with garbage because you don't care about quality. I guess that is what makes us unique human beings.

Edited January 26, 2017 by Dr_Mayus

[Kevvik]

A big problem is the subjective quality of "trash". While long time gamers have a fairly broad understanding of a variety of genres, some (feeling at times like many) new gamers are remarkably superficial and don't see past CoD, FIFA and GTA.

 

I've been on boards where classic games from the PS1 or SNES are getting slagged because the "graphics suk".  Gameplay beyond twitch doesn't register with them and they don't miss a campaign mode because they think the story mode "is a waste of time". All they care about is MP or some open world roaming just causing mayhem. You can't discuss anything with them reasonably because they just start dropping f bombs and sexual or racial epithets at you.  Not all new gamers are like this but there are enough that I almost actively avoid online MP except in controlled situations. 

 

I'm trying not to tar all newer gamers with the same brush but there are enough out there like this that if the gaming masses were to QC stuff, I think a lot of niche market and alternative style titles that many of us love would never have made the cut and we would be stuck with a very vanilla market.  They are very vocal in their disdain of whatever doesn't fit their idea of a game and make enough noise that just about the only AAA stuff you see developed is "previous bestselling game" #24.  Anything experimental gets given a moment's notice and if it doesn't sell half a million copies at launch is considered a failure.

 

Remember, for every "Life of Black Tiger" there is a "Beyond Good & Evil", for every "Orc Slayer" there is a "Salt and Sanctuary", games that may not achieve massive sales but build a loyal following who pass the word to like minds in the next generation. We just need to decide how open our minds are to what comes next.

7 minutes ago, Dr_Mayus said:

 

Also you missed my point about perception. Yes the fat guy on the couch is going to buy the beer because he sees good looking people having fun...but I guarantee you sales would go down for a company if they put a bunch of ugly fat people in it doing the same things as the young attractive people.

 

 

 

Nowadays I would have to agree but back in the day Rodney Dangerfield and Bob Eucker helped put Miller Lite on the map.

[angelgrievous]

4 minutes ago, Dr_Mayus said:

I think every company needs quality control. Why wouldn't you want a company only putting the best out for their customer?

 

Also you missed my point about perception. Yes the fat guy on the couch is going to buy the beer because he sees good looking people having fun...but I guarantee you sales would go down for a company if they put a bunch of ugly fat people in it doing the same things as the young attractive people.

 

It is why when Nintendo released their trailer for Switch they used these individuals instead of your average Nintendo fan. I guarantee none of those people are having roof parties and bring their Switch over for everyone to play (and yes I worked for Blockbuster for 9 years, EB for 1 year and Playstation for 3 years...I know what an average Nintendo fan looks like)

 

 

So in the end I expect companies I like to have some control over their content and you are OK with every Tom, Dick and Harry flooding the market with garbage because you don't care about quality. I guess that is what makes us unique human beings.

Okay, lets not get carried away here.  I'm not arguing advertisement strategy as I feel it doesn't really apply here.  You just said you worked for Blockbuster for 9 years.  Did Blockbuster only stock Oscar winning movies?  No.  They had everything from Forrest Gump to The Toxic Avenger, When Harry Met Sally to Battlefield Earth.  Sony, not unlike Blockbuster is not in the business of controlling the quality of third party products, nor should they be.

 

Lets look at Nintendo.  The NES had its' fair share of "trash" games, the SNES as well.  The WII however took the proverbial cake in that category, more trash than a local dump.  The WII U was one of the worst selling consoles to date.  Now go to Amazon and try to pre-order a Nintendo Switch.  You can't can you.  That's because the company is grounded in it's market and that market is gamers, not casual weekenders, but "hardcore gamers".  It doesn't matter to them at all.  

 

The same, I will argue, can be said with Playstation.  The PSONE had a ton of garbage, the PS2, and PS3 as well.  However, the PS4 is the best selling console of this generation, nothing will change the target audiences' view of that.  But just because some guy posted a video on Youtube the sheep flocked to it like it was the gospel and decided to make this topic the flavor of the month.  It's not.  It's been there and done that.  Sony is not going to be considered trash or otherwise because of a fucking tiger game.   

[Caesar Clown]

Skylight Freerange 2 was removed from Steam Greenlight because it was rejected (and the page was removed which means the developer pulled it most likely due to insults). I honestly have no idea how it got accepted by Sony, it's simply incredible that Sony has sunken even lower than Valve's Greenlight program.

 

By the way, Skylight Freerange 1 will be released on PS4 in the upcoming year, which means enough people bought it to make the developer profit.

[bladesoframen]

1 hour ago, Dr_Mayus said:

So in the end I expect companies I like to have some control over their content and you are OK with every Tom, Dick and Harry flooding the market with garbage because you don't care about quality. I guess that is what makes us unique human beings.

 

While we do need to have quality control, how much is enough? Why is Steam still considered one of the best places to release games despite the amount of shovelware on there. Everyone is citing the old video game bust, but the percentage of shovelware now is greater than ever before and yet the game market is still thriving. Generalizing it further, there is more content to see, hear, watch, or possibly consume today than someone can try in hundreds of lifetimes, and yet the rate of media creation is increasing. Will having a big corporation curate their stuff help fix the flood of content from other places? Probably not. 

 

To bring a similar example. Take Youtube. Anyone can upload whatever they want on it, but Youtube hasn't collapsed. Everytime someone (the customer) watches a video, Youtube finds a way to monetize it, and through various automatic algorithms, recommends the user more stuff to watch that usually fall within their strike range.

[DARKB1KE]

You guys fail to see the market behind black tiger. They're following footsteps of games like goat simulator, that surgeon game, catlateral, I am bread,  etc.

 

 

[StrickenBiged]

 

13 hours ago, Undead Wolf said:

When I talk about crap games flooding the store, I'm talking about games that appeal to literally nobody. You know, games like Life of Black Tiger.

 

How do you know that Life of Black Tiger appeals to literally nobody? They've had a few sales already - at least 27 based on the "owners" on this site and, we all know, a few YouTubers and gaming sites who bought it to take the piss out of. It appealed to them. 

 

13 hours ago, Undead Wolf said:

These games are objectively bad and they aren't even going to sell, meaning Sony won't even make money from it anyway, so why do they put it up on their store?

 

An objectively bad game can still be priced correctly and offer a fair value to customers. Going back to my example of Orc Slayer, it's an objectively bad game on many levels, but at just £1.69 (on sale) I feel it was appropriately priced. 

 

Sony put it on their store because 1) they got paid upfront when the dev applied to go through certification; and 2) after that point, they'll take a cut of any sales with very little additional investment on their part. It's win-win.

 

It's also a good thing for devs and the industry. Sony launched the PS4 with the message, that they wanted to be the best place to play games and wanted to be open to indies and other devs to hawk their wares. It'd be a step backwards to reverse that message now. 

 

You correctly identify the actual problem here: 

 

13 hours ago, Undead Wolf said:

It's harmful because it affects how easy it is to find the actual good games. Now these games will just get buried under mountains of shit, making them harder to find, and I think that's sad.

 

The solution is not to remove choice for us, the customers. The solution is to improve curation and discoverability of the things that are good/will appeal to you. 

 

13 hours ago, Undead Wolf said:

I mean we all know how badly it went last time the floodgates were opened.

 

Not a good comparison. None of the factors that applied then apply now. Then, one of the factors was the "flood" of hardware, and software distribution costs were much higher because the internet was in its infancy. Yes, there will be winners and losers as we move forward from now. This is normal in a healthy, competitive market. (A market which, for the last several years, has shown consistent growth.)

[damon8r351]

I for one am quite glad to see the PS4 finally catching up to other consoles in the amount of shovelware available for it.

[StrickenBiged]

Thoughts from industry insiders on the "too many games" meme:

 

 

[chickenbaltipie]

23 hours ago, StrickenBiged said:

 

I know right?!

 

That stupid thing where you have to scroll though and input one character at a time? And even if you take the time to input the game's entire title, it gives you like 10-30 pieces of DLC/Avatars/Themes/Soundtracks for the game rather than the thing you're looking for? Who the hell designed that and why is it still there now? Just give us a floating keyboard and a search function!

Absolutely!!!!

 

It's such an old fashioned design, this has been hinted at in the last few updates but never done

 

Don't they want to sell digital games?????

[Xionx]

21 hours ago, Neputyunu said:

So... my opinion on this is... Just let the SteamGreenlight games come, as long these games are 100%able, game- AND trophywise.

 

Hm i agree to pretty much everything in your wall of text.  But the last "If" is a pretty big "IF"  (no i dont mean iffy)  .

My point is that like dragon fin soup they make a trophy glitchfest. And after months they say " sorry but we dont fix the game anymore , but we release a new version you can buy for XX $ and we think its maybe less buggy than "

They released a trash game (i thought first it was fun but ..than ..hm... no) , and because it was a flop they just dont care anymore and move on.

I think this "We release it, get some cash but we dont care about it anymore" direction is high risk on these games.  AAA- devs or even most of indy devs care about there games (some indy devs even more, with direct e-mail contact if you find bugs) .

Sony should but more controls on games and i think quality checks should include trophies or savegamecorruptions (and not only the "dont turn of the system whyle saving" corruptions.....)