madbuk Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 56 minutes ago, voleman79 said: And what about trophies that reguire 2 or more controllers or special controllers like Move, PS Eye or even second console (Vita with ad hoc trophies)? Or online trophies in general - you have to pay for internet connection and PS+. That is all hidden behind "paywall". Hey, these trophies should also be separated and rarity should be counted from confirmed people who have second controller etc. Exactly, and this ideology is ridiculous. To quote a perfect post from the last time(?) this was discussed: Quote hey guys! Did you know that 100% of people own an elephant?! Its true! I know this because i counted all the people who i saw own an elephant, and didnt count anyone else, and 100% of them own an elephant! https://forum.psnprofiles.com/topic/24623-dlc-rarity-change/?page=9#comment-536264 I just don't understand how anybody could think that sort of tracking is okay or reasonable, especially when there are better alternatives like the very first method or this new one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mekktor Posted February 9, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted February 9, 2017 13 hours ago, MMDE said: What this update is going to do is say that the number of people who has played a DLC is somewhere between the amount of people who has played the game and who we've confirmed has played the DLC. But, where we now set the number is just arbitrarily in the middle. Chances are that if someone has played a DLC, they got trophies for it. This is not always the case, but I think it's more likely than not in average. So, placing the number in the middle, between amount of people who has played the game and who has got a trophy for a DLC would be skewed. It should be much closer to the amount of people who has earned a trophy for the DLC, in average. 2 hours ago, MMDE said: I don't bother explain this to you more times. You clearly don't understand statistics. You are making up numbers when they are not confirmed, and is commonly known as a guesstimate. If we're going to make an educated guess, it should at the very least be closer to amount of people who has earned a trophy for the DLC than those who has only done so for the game. Instead of in the middle, it should be 50% closer to the amount who has earned at least one trophy in the game. I'm not going to get involved in this back and forth discussion, but I have to correct you here. The geometric mean doesn't set the number of owners to the midpoint of the base game owners and the DLC owners. The actual value used is Equivalent Owners = Square Root (Base Game owners * DLC owners) This number will always be closer to the DLC owners than the base game owners. Just for example looking at TLOU's Grounded trophy DLC owners = 7,557 Equivalent owners = 67,660 Base Game owners = 605,777 In this example, the Equivalent owners is weighted around 90% towards the DLC owners. You'll notice that the equivalent owners actually splits the other two numbers proportionally. That is to say that the ratio of the first two numbers equals the ratio of the second two numbers. You should probably clear up your own understanding of this stuff before you throw around judgements about other people's understanding. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B1rvine Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 On 2/2/2017 at 7:11 PM, Dragon-Archon said: Yay, finally. Hopefully this will put an end to the DLC rarity debate. Nice try. ^^^ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegirlruka Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, MMDE said: Just to iterate. You are making up numbers when you base them on something that you don't have supporting data for. If you say everyone who has played the game has played the DLC too, you're making up numbers, because you know that just because you've played the game, that doesn't mean you've played the DLC. Saying that the number of people who has played the DLC is somewhere between the amount of people who has earned a trophy for the DLC and who has for the main game is true, especially if inclusive between. But that doesn't mean it's in the middle, so again, you'd be making a somewhat estimated educated guess, in other words, making up numbers. Buk isn't implying that all who have played the game have played the DLC. He's saying that all who have installed the trophy list for the base game have also installed the trophy list for the DLC because it is impossible not to do so. This is why the numbers are not made up. Edited February 9, 2017 by kuuhaku 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMDE Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, kuuhaku said: Buk isn't implying that all who have played the game have played the DLC. He's saying that all who have installed the trophy list for the base game have also installed the trophy list for the DLC because it is impossible not to do so. This is why the numbers are not made up. Oh, I know that is what he and some other says, but that's not a very consistent view. Why? Well, what is it you're trying to express with the rarity? What is it supposed to represent? What kind of statistical meaning is it supposed to have? Is it supposed to say what percentage of people who got a trophy from those who has played the game? I'd say that is what it is. Don't confuse this with owners of the game, because I own tons of games and they won't count unless I've played the game. Hopefully you're still following me at this point. Next step is to realize that if we're going to be consistent with this idea, we can't count those who hasn't played that which can give them the trophy. If they haven't played the game/DLC, they shouldn't count. The problem is, it is hard to tell who has played a DLC or not. Should we say everyone who has played the game has played the DLC too? We know that isn't true and it gives us very wrong and skewed statistics. We shouldn't count people we don't know if has played the DLC or not, so what we instead did was find a way to only count those we knew had played the DLC. In other words, only count those who had earned a trophy for that DLC. This means that we don't try to guess the amount or use numbers we have no basis for, but instead we use confirmed numbers. There are serious inconsistencies in the way stats are counted on this site. Like how games on your profile that you haven't earned a trophy for doesn't affect your completion %, but you do count as an owner of said game. This is inconsistent. It should count on their profile IMO, because we know they've played the games. What this new system does is just to guesstimate. Edited February 10, 2017 by MMDE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmland12 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 On 2/8/2017 at 11:37 PM, MMDE said: A good example of how wrong this new system is all the PS+ games that has paid DLCs. A majority of those paid DLCs will be ultra rare or very rare now. I was curious about this claim, so I looked up the trophies for a few PS+ games that I knew had DLC and I'm not seeing this. Here's what I counted: Driveclub -- (14 Very Rare, 55 Rare, 25 Uncommon, 1 Common) Sound Shapes (North American List) -- (55 Common) Never Alone (North American List) -- (4 Uncommon) King's Quest -- (6 Very Rare, 24 Rare, 6 Uncommon) Maybe there's some other games where this is happening and the first four that came to my mind aren't representative. If so, I'd be interested in seeing the examples. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FawltyPowers Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I thought I would have a look at my new Ultra Rare collection as it jumped from 62 to 83. Here is a list of all my Ultra DLC trophies and highlighted in yellow are the trophies that have become Ultra Rare since the change to Geometric: Looking at the figures: The original PSNP method (Sony) is all 0 - 1%. It's the reason it got changed. The previous PSNP method (Old) shows all previous trophies as Rare at best. The current PSNP method (Geometric) finds that middle ground through a formula and is pure guesswork, but looks most realistic. This is how the majority of people will see it on here, you can argue about accuracy but no method is 100% accurate in determining who has played DLC. On a personal note: Not a single trophy in the list above do I disagree with. The satisfaction of seeing Uncharted 3 DLC trophies as Ultra Rare including treasure collecting and the Crushing difficulty trophies of Overseer and Triumvirate on there is immense. Also Pa-Pa-Pa Poker Ace, damn that feels good too. The Birth of Oni is now Ultra Rare, requirements are more difficult than Long Time No See in the main game - also Ultra Rare. Ground Control In Black Ops solo took me a lot of time and patience. If any of those multiplayer trophies were in the main game I'm sure they would be Ultra Rare. So even though I don't necessarily agree with the new stat because it's guesswork, it feels good seeing how DLC rarity has changed in a positive way and I'm sure most others feel the same. I think this stat is here to stay. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voleman79 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) Edited July 28, 2018 by voleman79 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starcrunch061 Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 On 2/8/2017 at 10:27 AM, MMDE said: AFAIK, one side wants owners of the game to count as owners of the DLCs too. I know I just want consistency and I don't want invented numbers. How does this reach a compromise between the two sides? It doesn't do anything to close in on either, but instead equal or further away from both sides from where it already was at. Well, as Larry David said, a really good compromise is one that leaves both sides equally dissatisfied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madbuk Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 3 hours ago, FawltyPowers said: I thought I would have a look at my new Ultra Rare collection as it jumped from 62 to 83. Here is a list of all my Ultra DLC trophies and highlighted in yellow are the trophies that have become Ultra Rare since the change to Geometric: Looking at the figures: The original PSNP method (Sony) is all 0 - 1%. It's the reason it got changed. The previous PSNP method (Old) shows all previous trophies as Rare at best. The current PSNP method (Geometric) finds that middle ground through a formula and is pure guesswork, but looks most realistic. This is how the majority of people will see it on here, you can argue about accuracy but no method is 100% accurate in determining who has played DLC. On a personal note: Not a single trophy in the list above do I disagree with. The satisfaction of seeing Uncharted 3 DLC trophies as Ultra Rare including treasure collecting and the Crushing difficulty trophies of Overseer and Triumvirate on there is immense. Also Pa-Pa-Pa Poker Ace, damn that feels good too. The Birth of Oni is now Ultra Rare, requirements are more difficult than Long Time No See in the main game - also Ultra Rare. Ground Control In Black Ops solo took me a lot of time and patience. If any of those multiplayer trophies were in the main game I'm sure they would be Ultra Rare. So even though I don't necessarily agree with the new stat because it's guesswork, it feels good seeing how DLC rarity has changed in a positive way and I'm sure most others feel the same. I think this stat is here to stay. No, there were plenty of DLC trophies using the original method that were 10%+ (like L.A Noire) or even higher. PSNP has a much smaller userbase than the one that Sony use for their stats, so we wouldn't have to worry about them all being 0-1% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Ripper Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 12 minutes ago, madbuk said: No, there were plenty of DLC trophies using the original method that were 10%+ (like L.A Noire) or even higher. PSNP has a much smaller userbase than the one that Sony use for their stats, so we wouldn't have to worry about them all being 0-1% We had the old system, the most requested feature was to change it. It's not coming back, it was useless. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madbuk Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 minute ago, Sly Ripper said: We had the old system, the most requested feature was to change it. It's not coming back, it was useless. Oh, I realize that. I prefer the original method but this new system is one I can live with - so much better than the one before it. I was just correcting that statement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FawltyPowers Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 18 minutes ago, madbuk said: Oh, I realize that. I prefer the original method but this new system is one I can live with - so much better than the one before it. I was just correcting that statement. Sorry I should have written it better, the trophies I listed came back as 0-1% and the issue on a wider scale had been that too many DLC trophies came back as Ultra Rare when using main game owners. I didn't mean every trophy for every DLC was 0-1% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chickenbaltipie Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 (edited) This explains why that coop Resogun trophy (i'm back and did it with a friend) is now in my top 5 rare trophies Pleased - i thought this was quite tough and when i did it at the time it was showing as easy... Edited February 10, 2017 by chickenbaltipie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K0t0bl1tz Posted February 20, 2017 Share Posted February 20, 2017 Since it's more realistic, I don't care if the new formula is a guesstimate. Some of my DLC trophies got what they deserved, and my average rarity has improved by ~7 per cent points (not that I care too much about it but still). So I'm happy with this update Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skateak Posted February 21, 2017 Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) On 2/9/2017 at 7:13 AM, madbuk said: You may not believe it but there are plenty of people who buy DLC in preparation and maybe never get around to actually doing it. As such, the "DLC owners" number will always be completely made up and wrong. And, since you're so afraid of those nasty made up numbers, you should be against that, right? This new method is MUCH closer to being accurate than the nonsense we had before lol. I actually do this quite a lot. I have quite a few GOTY and Ultimate Editions that I haven't actually done the DLC to but have played through some or all of the base game. Other times it is a season pass or something on sale but I haven't actually bought the game yet. Edited February 21, 2017 by skateak Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONUOsFan Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 On 2/2/2017 at 7:26 PM, dalailama1989 said: I hardly think it will I think the Geometric Mean is awesome! Yeah, why would it, when it's still just a random number with no basis in fact? If anything, it's now more random than either of the old methods. As far as I can tell, the only people that cared about the old way (i.e. The only factually correct way) were people who didn't buy DLC and worried that their e-peens were shorter than people who did. ? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegirlruka Posted February 22, 2017 Share Posted February 22, 2017 31 minutes ago, ONUOsFan said: As far as I can tell, the only people that cared about the old way (i.e. The only factually correct way) were people who didn't buy DLC and worried that their e-peens were shorter than people who did. ? Which old way? There were two old ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ONUOsFan Posted February 22, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 48 minutes ago, kuuhaku said: Which old way? There were two old ways. There is only one method that is based on verifiably accurate numbers, and that's the way it was done in the beginning. Anything else is guessing and pandering to people who care that someone else's DLC trophies are "artificially" inflating (or deflating, to be accurate) rarity numbers for other people and making them look bad somehow (I guess?). I've said all along that the only way to end this debate is to come up with a way for people to filter DLC out of their average rarity calculations if they don't want it there. There is NO WAY to accurately calculate DLC rarity based on people who have actually bought or attempted to play DLC because there's NO WAY to know that number for sure. Therefore, the only verifiably accurate number is the percentage of people who own the game and earned the trophy. On 2/10/2017 at 9:23 AM, Sly Ripper said: We had the old system, the most requested feature was to change it. It's not coming back, it was useless. Based on the fact that we're here years later and still discussing it, I'm guessing it's still at or near the top of that list of requested features. If there's no way to make everyone happy why not stick to the only verifiably accurate method instead of continuing to make up new ones? And/or like I said above, give people that don't like DLC the option to filter it out somehow. Edited February 22, 2017 by ONUOsFan 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simula67 Posted February 23, 2017 Share Posted February 23, 2017 @Sly Ripper Are the rarity percentages calculated on page load, or are they saved in a database and updated every 24 hours or so? If it's the former, why not implement a user preference for how they want the percentage to be calculated? I'm guessing it's the latter and that's why this option has not been considered. This has always been a divisive issue on this site and it seems like the only way to make everyone happy is to let everyone choose what they want to see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Ripper Posted February 23, 2017 Author Share Posted February 23, 2017 1 minute ago, simula67 said: @Sly Ripper Are the rarity percentages calculated on page load, or are they saved in a database and updated every 24 hours or so? If it's the former, why not implement a user preference for how they want the percentage to be calculated? I'm guessing it's the latter and that's why this option has not been considered. This has always been a divisive issue on this site and it seems like the only way to make everyone happy is to let everyone choose what they want to see. They're saved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post starcrunch061 Posted February 23, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted February 23, 2017 On 2/9/2017 at 2:48 PM, mekktor said: You should probably clear up your own understanding of this stuff before you throw around judgements about other people's understanding. Amen. I wish a lot of people would do the same. But, this is the internet, so...of course not! But a few other things: a lot of people are really relying on this idea of "verifiable numbers". Apparently, this is taken to mean that every number must point back to a real live person to mean anything. But as I said before, good statistics are often good precisely because they move away from this notion. Baseball has done this to remarkable end. The "replacement player" to which each player can be compared using the VORP statistic is a completely fictitious object (and in fact, this fictitious replacement has had to be re-thought numerous times, and is currently considered to be a below-average MLB player, simply so the distributions make sense). I would guess that the people who created the statistic "understand statistics", despite the fact that their point of comparison is quite literally a figment of their imaginations. Now, whether or not they have "small e-peens" or fear that they "look bad" for one reason or another is unknown to me; you'll have to ask them yourselves. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuentinCle95 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) Cool! It's not exactly a fully accurate representation, but that is unattainable anyway, and any other method will get flack either way. Kudos for coming up with this metric, it seems as fair as we could possibly make it with the information we have. I have to admit to feeling embarrassed for not knowing what the geometric mean was (I looked it up and understand now) since I've taken so many advanced statistics classes in uni (and still am, as I'm working towards being data analyst), but oh well, I get to say I learned a new thing because of gaming I guess haha That said, perhaps a suggestion so as to satiate those that complain that this estimate is not actual reality (which is a point I sympathise with, I just realise there's no way to make it actually reality): While still using the Ultra-Rare --> Common nomenclature, perhaps add a line that explains that the numbers you're about to see have been estimated in stead of letting people who haven't read this thread assume that they're real. Like a disclaimer at the top of the DLC list, where the number of bronzes, silvers and golds in the DLC are listed. For instance, in their movie rankings, Rottentomatoes.com adds a disclaimer above the list that the scores have been adjusted. Edited February 24, 2017 by QuentinCle95 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmland12 Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 On 2/22/2017 at 2:12 PM, ONUOsFan said: There is only one method that is based on verifiably accurate numbers, and that's the way it was done in the beginning. Anything else is guessing and pandering to people who care that someone else's DLC trophies are "artificially" inflating (or deflating, to be accurate) rarity numbers for other people and making them look bad somehow (I guess?). This is flat wrong. The current method is based on accurate numbers as was the previous method. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out by many, it's not possible to tell exactly how many people actually own the DLC... both methods rely on calculating this to some extent (using actual numbers as the inputs). The old way took the number of people who had achieved at least one trophy as the number of people who own the DLC. This is not the same thing as the number of DLC owners (it will in every case underestimate it), but it can be assumed to be a simple shorthand for it and is simple to use as the baseline. The new way takes the geometric mean of the previous number and the number of game owners. This also isn't the same thing as the number of DLC owners (it's not very clear whether it will overestimate or underestimate more), but it can also be assumed to be a simple shorthand for it and is simple enough to use as the baseline. You can prefer one way or the other, but it is an outright lie to claim that one is based on "verifiably accurate" numbers and the other isn't. If you mean the actual number of DLC owners as the "real" number, then neither is, since we don't know that number. If you mean that the inputs are real, then both are. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ONUOsFan Posted February 24, 2017 Share Posted February 24, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, dmland12 said: This is flat wrong. The current method is based on accurate numbers as was the previous method. Unfortunately, as has been pointed out by many, it's not possible to tell exactly how many people actually own the DLC... both methods rely on calculating this to some extent (using actual numbers as the inputs). The old way took the number of people who had achieved at least one trophy as the number of people who own the DLC. This is not the same thing as the number of DLC owners (it will in every case underestimate it), but it can be assumed to be a simple shorthand for it and is simple to use as the baseline. The new way takes the geometric mean of the previous number and the number of game owners. This also isn't the same thing as the number of DLC owners (it's not very clear whether it will overestimate or underestimate more), but it can also be assumed to be a simple shorthand for it and is simple enough to use as the baseline. You can prefer one way or the other, but it is an outright lie to claim that one is based on "verifiably accurate" numbers and the other isn't. If you mean the actual number of DLC owners as the "real" number, then neither is, since we don't know that number. If you mean that the inputs are real, then both are. No, I meant to say that the total number of game owners is the only number we know for sure - the way it was done originally. Anything else is just guesswork, because there's no way to know how many people owned/attempted the DLC. Edited February 24, 2017 by ONUOsFan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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