Geometric Mean for DLC Trophies

[fisty123]

I never cared much for the DLC trophies rating in the past, that was until I played Capcom Arcade Cabinet which is full of DLC trophies.
Just because it has DLC trophies was not the issue, the issue was some of these were so hard to unlock, I know so many players who tried to get the first trophy and gave up but on the previous system the first trophy was always listed as 100% unlocked.  

This annoyed me when I viewed it as I know full well they were not even close to a 100% trophy but because the system could only track people who unlocked a trophy there is not much that could be done. While this new system might not be perfect I still find it a lot better then the old system when it comes to games like this.

[starcrunch061]

6 hours ago, fisty123 said:

I never cared much for the DLC trophies rating in the past, that was until I played Capcom Arcade Cabinet which is full of DLC trophies.
Just because it has DLC trophies was not the issue, the issue was some of these were so hard to unlock, I know so many players who tried to get the first trophy and gave up but on the previous system the first trophy was always listed as 100% unlocked.  

This annoyed me when I viewed it as I know full well they were not even close to a 100% trophy but because the system could only track people who unlocked a trophy there is not much that could be done. While this new system might not be perfect I still find it a lot better then the old system when it comes to games like this.

 

Yeah, Capcom is my own example to support changing the rarity. It's in the minority (maybe joined by Dante's Inferno), but man - those Commando and Gun.Smoke trophies are no joke.

[B1rvine]

23 hours ago, starcrunch061 said:

....but man - those Commando and Gun.Smoke trophies are no joke.

 

Amen to that, lol.  I probably got killed by the Wingate family bosses, about 1000 times, literally tried for 2 days straight and kept my PS3 on overnight...  Eventually I'll try again. And yes, this sort of game is why DLC rarity should be changed (among other reasons).

[Deaths_Trooper]

Is it possible to manually change this for some games where everyone owns the dlc?

for example, Skyrim VR has its own trophy list. And there are three DLC’s. However every copy of Skyrim VR included all DLC on the disk. Yet the amount of owners per dlc is about 10% of the total owners. I know Sly said in his first post that he acknowledged that there were exceptions... but still.

what do you think?

[eigen-space]

1 hour ago, Deaths_Trooper said:

Is it possible to manually change this for some games where everyone owns the dlc?

for example, Skyrim VR has its own trophy list. And there are three DLC’s. However every copy of Skyrim VR included all DLC on the disk. Yet the amount of owners per dlc is about 10% of the total owners. I know Sly said in his first post that he acknowledged that there were exceptions... but still.

what do you think?

If this happens, it would need to be thoroughly vetted. If you get the DLC for free at the exact same time, in the exact same format of the base game, for all versions attached with the trophy list, then I like this idea. Otherwise it might not be so great.

For example, Final Fantasy XV had a game patch that added two free "DLC" trophies that anyone had access to once they downloaded the patch. However, should it really be counted for everyone? People who played this game on a physical copy may not have an internet connection to download patches or digital DLC, and they may have also sold their disc before the game got this patch. Even if you purchased a digital copy, if the DLC isn't contained within the exact same download as the base game, someone may have lost their internet connection between one download and the next.
Another example is that Shaq Fu: A Legend Reborn is rumored to have the DLC included with the physical copy for free (unclear on if the DLC is actually contained within the disc or as a separate download), but not with the digital. Both games share the same trophy list so it would be impossible to distinguish if you got the DLC for free or didn't.

 

I have no experience with Skyrim VR, so I'm not sure if it has any of those issues, but just showing that it could be a bit more difficult than what it seems on the surface  

Edited May 31, 2018 by eigen-space

[Deaths_Trooper]

Couldn’t agree to this more. But Skyrim VR is like a GOTY edition meaning that the original ps3 version had traditional DLC. But the ps4 version and VR version had all content on the disk, no download necessary.

 

and by the way, if someone has no internet connection then i dont think their profile is on psnprofiles

[Deaths_Trooper]

On 31-5-2018 at 1:25 AM, Deaths_Trooper said:

Is it possible to manually change this for some games where everyone owns the dlc?

for example, Skyrim VR has its own trophy list. And there are three DLC’s. However every copy of Skyrim VR included all DLC on the disk. Yet the amount of owners per dlc is about 10% of the total owners. I know Sly said in his first post that he acknowledged that there were exceptions... but still.

what do you think?

 

Still wondering about this.

@BlindMango Any chance you can enlighten me on this? I see you active on a lot of questions on the forums.

Example of skyrim VR (which is like a GOTY edition, including all dlc for every owner.)

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/6931-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-vr

 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Deaths_Trooper

[Evil_Joker88]

I was thinking the same as you @Deaths_Trooper about free dlc trophies in case like Skyrim PS4 and VR it should be counted by the same amount as the base game but like @eigen-space mentioned there are exeptions... for example GTA 5 and Uncharted 4 have free dlc trophies but they were added later so probably it's not the same amount of people... feels weird though to see such a low amount of dlc owners sometimes...

[BlindMango]

2 hours ago, Deaths_Trooper said:

Still wondering about this.

@BlindMango Any chance you can enlighten me on this? I see you active on a lot of questions on the forums.

Example of skyrim VR (which is like a GOTY edition, including all dlc for every owner.)

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/6931-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-vr

 

Right now the code is blanket doing geometric mean for all DLC on the site, so this kind of exception would have to be coded by @Sly Ripper and manually applied to lists like Skyrim VR from someone like me. It's up to him to do that though, and that's if he finds the idea worth it over current stuff he's working on. At the moment Sly is currently figuring out PSN ID name changing, not sure if he'll be able to pull this off atm  

 

Edited October 25, 2018 by BlindMango

[MMDE]

2 hours ago, Deaths_Trooper said:

 

Still wondering about this.

@BlindMango Any chance you can enlighten me on this? I see you active on a lot of questions on the forums.

Example of skyrim VR (which is like a GOTY edition, including all dlc for every owner.)

https://psnprofiles.com/trophies/6931-the-elder-scrolls-v-skyrim-vr

 

 

Just because someone owns the DLC doesn't mean they've played it. This goes for games too. Just because you own a game, that doesn't mean you've played it. And the word "owner" is misleading.

Edited October 25, 2018 by MMDE

[Deaths_Trooper]

7 hours ago, MMDE said:

 

Just because someone owns the DLC doesn't mean they've played it. This goes for games too. Just because you own a game, that doesn't mean you've played it. And the word "owner" is misleading.

In the case of Skyrim, once you start game you automatically play the whole game including all DLC. It’s not a matter of starting a level in a menu.

 

if DLC becomes free after the game is released then we shouldn’t do this. But if the DLC is added on the disc then it makes sense. Technically it’s not even DLC. It’s base content.

 

thanks Blindmango! Understood

[MMDE]

2 minutes ago, Deaths_Trooper said:

In the case of Skyrim, once you start game you automatically play the whole game including all DLC. It’s not a matter of starting a level in a menu.

 

if DLC becomes free after the game is released then we shouldn’t do this. But if the DLC is added on the disc then it makes sense. Technically it’s not even DLC. It’s base content.

 

thanks Blindmango! Understood

 

Doesn't mean they've played the content... I got 100% for Skyrim, so no need to tell me how the game works btw.

[mekktor]

16 minutes ago, MMDE said:

Doesn't mean they've played the content... I got 100% for Skyrim, so no need to tell me how the game works btw.

 

You don't need to actually play anything to be counted as an owner for the base game though, you just need to launch the game. So someone who does the same with the DLC installed should probably be considered a DLC owner too.

[MMDE]

12 minutes ago, mekktor said:

 

You don't need to actually play anything to be counted as an owner for the base game though, you just need to launch the game. So someone who does the same with the DLC installed should probably be considered a DLC owner too.

 

You need to play the game to be counted as an owner of the game though. You booting it up, is you playing it.

Edited October 26, 2018 by MMDE

[mekktor]

6 minutes ago, MMDE said:

You need to play the game to be counted as an owner of the game though. You booting it up, is you playing it.

 

Launching the game is just interacting with the OS. Going on to begin playing the game (press start etc.) or selecting the DLC in the menu shouldn't be required to be counted as an owner for either base game or DLC.

 

Even if you want to interpret it the way you say, if booting up the game from the home screen qualifies you as an owner, then doing the same with the DLC installed should too.

[MMDE]

1 minute ago, mekktor said:

 

Launching the game is just interacting with the OS. Going on to begin playing the game (press start etc.) or selecting the DLC in the menu shouldn't be required to be counted as an owner for either base game or DLC.

 

Even if you want to interpret it the way you say, if booting up the game from the home screen qualifies you as an owner, then doing the same with the DLC installed should too.

 

You are accessing the game, not necessarily the DLC. And what is requested here will never happen.  

[HusKy]

19 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

And what is requested here will never happen.  

That's a pretty poor response towards a reasonable suggestion. DLC stats are completely inaccurate for many games so perhaps a more hybrid approach would be a better solution.

[MMDE]

8 minutes ago, HusKyCode said:

That's a pretty poor response towards a reasonable suggestion. DLC stats are completely inaccurate for many games so perhaps a more hybrid approach would be a better solution.

 

No, it's just reality. It's too much micro management and takes a lot of server resources, also adding another layer of complexity.

Edited October 26, 2018 by MMDE

[Deaths_Trooper]

3 hours ago, MMDE said:

 

Doesn't mean they've played the content... I got 100% for Skyrim, so no need to tell me how the game works btw.

Well then you should know that the first time you enter a town you already hear the guards speaking of the dawnguard fighting vampires. Which is DLC. So immediately the game is played including DLC.

 

perhaps it’s too much work to implement. Not for me or you to judge. That’s why I asked Blindmango ;).

[B1rvine]

Edit: Removed. My meaning wasn't really clear here.  See my following statement.

Edited October 27, 2018 by B1rvine

[starcrunch061]

1 hour ago, B1rvine said:

 

There's a fine line between playing vs having access to play. I get it though, you're saying it's not really DLC and shouldn't be counted as such... but remember, the game itself still considers this as DLC content, and as such, it's still "extra" regardless of whether or not it's included in the package. 

 

I wouldn't personally consider listening to a few guards in an area of the main game playing DLC, but I do recognize it's a bit sketchy.  Every game in this manner will be unique.

 

I think the original example was sketchy to begin with.

 

I mean, in Cat Quest, they talk about an empire with dogs. You never actually see this empire, though it is rumored to be in Cat Quest II. Does that mean I've actually played Cat Quest II?

Edited October 26, 2018 by starcrunch061

[mekktor]

27 minutes ago, starcrunch061 said:

I think the original example was sketchy to begin with.

 

I mean, in Cat Quest, they talk about an empire with dogs. You never actually see this empire, though it is rumored to be in Cat Quest II. Does that mean I've actually played Cat Quest II?

 

I haven't played Skyrim so I may be wrong here, but I would assume the conversations you hear are actually a part of the DLC. As in, you install the DLC and then begin to experience that DLC as you walk around this town. That isn't what's happening in your example where everything you described was just a part of the original game.

 

It is an interesting thing to consider though. I think we would all agree that starting a DLC quest would be considered playing the DLC. What about reading a noticeboard for quests including a DLC quest before making a judgement call about which quest to take? I would argue that the DLC quest is influencing your game and so at that point you are playing the DLC. What about interacting with a new title screen with new artwork and music that was added as part of the DLC? Who can say what is and isn't considered "playing the game"?

 

Basically I come back to what I said before. If you start up the game with the DLC installed, you should be considered an owner of that DLC. Of course, that's just in the ideal situation. In reality, there's no way to track it for all games, and doing it for only games where the DLC comes pre-installed would require a lot of effort for little return. Not to mention it would lead to uncertainty about how the rarity for a particular DLC is calculated.

[starcrunch061]

Just now, mekktor said:

I haven't played Skyrim so I may be wrong here, but I would assume the conversations you hear are actually a part of the DLC. As in, you install the DLC and then begin to experience that DLC as you walk around this town. That isn't what's happening in your example where everything you described was just a part of the original game.

 

It is an interesting thing to consider though. I think we would all agree that starting a DLC quest would be considered playing the DLC. What about reading a noticeboard for quests including a DLC quest before making a judgement call about which quest to take? I would argue that the DLC quest is influencing your game and so at that point you are playing the DLC. What about interacting with a new title screen with new artwork and music that was added as part of the DLC? Who can say what is and isn't considered "playing the game"?

 

Basically I come back to what I said before. If you start up the game with the DLC installed, you should be considered an owner of that DLC. Of course, that's just in the ideal situation. In reality, there's no way to track it for all games, and doing it for only games where the DLC comes pre-installed would require a lot of effort for little return. Not to mention it would lead to uncertainty about how the rarity for a particular DLC is calculated.

 

I see. I thought he was just saying that guards would mention the Dawnguard in your game, with or without DLC, but with that very mention, DLC becomes a part of the game. It's been so long since I've played, though, that you might be right.

 

I agree, theoretically, that if DLC is already included in the game, then the player should be counted towards DLC stats. However, like you, I am unclear on how that should be checked. 

 

And, on a mostly unrelated note, it seems that people want DLC to be counted for everyone because they want more UR trophies. My personal motivation for the opposite setup is that I don't want more UR trophies (or, at least, not a UR trophy gained in that way).

[B1rvine]

I think @Deaths_Trooper and others have confusion on what the geometric mean’s purpose is.  So I’ll attempt to clear that up.

 

It is -not- to determine or guesstimate the number of DLC owners in relation to base game owners. It kind of does this, but that’s not really the purpose.

 

It is used, rather, to determine what the rarity would be if the DLC trophy list was an independent game instead, or possibly how it would look if no trophies were DLC in a game (not quite, but easiest way to explain). The amount of DLC owners is only used to find a meaningful average relatively accurate, but after that doesn’t matter.  Therefore we shouldn't really increase that number if the content isn't accessed. And in that respect, what's considered "playing" content can be questionable the way you're describing it.

 

The exception which Sly mentions really only applies when specific trophies in DLC also relate to ones in the main game and create a statistical impossibility. The best example is The Last Of Us Remastered, where the hardest difficulty completion (grounded) is more common than easier ones, even though they stack together. This probably happens on less than .5% of the games.

 

TLDR: While fine tuning these few games would matter a little bit, It’s probably not worth it for negligible differences.

 

 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by B1rvine

[mekktor]

9 hours ago, B1rvine said:

The only exception, which Sly mentions, really only applies when specific trophies in DLC also relate to ones in the main game and create a statistical impossibility. The best example is The Last Of Us Remastered, where the hardest difficulty completion (grounded) is more common than easier ones, even though they stack together.  This probably happens on less than .5% of the games.

 

Why is it a statistical impossibility for the DLC trophy to be more common than prerequisite base game trophies? The only thing you can say for sure is that the DLC trophy should have fewer achievers. If you are looking at the rarity, which represents the ratio of achievers to those who attempted to achieve it (by playing the relevant content or more accurately launching the content), and if the base game and DLC have different numbers of people who attempted each, then the rarities don't necessarily have to follow the trend that you suggested. As uncomfortable as that seems to make people feel.

 

9 hours ago, B1rvine said:

As stated before, maybe with Skyrim you're arguably playing the DLC content, but what about the Last of Us where you have to purposely select the difficulty for grounded in a menu. Since the game considers it an "extra" DLC, are you still "playing" it if you avoid it on purpose?

 

Yes I would say you are still playing the DLC if you avoid it, just like you are still considered in the rarity calculation for hard mode if you avoid that. You had all the difficulty options in front of you and you chose a lesser difficulty. That decision is the very first step of playing that DLC.