Star Wars: The Last Jedi

[rdhight]

20 hours ago, HaSoOoN-MHD said:

None of the developments in the movie felt unjustified or out of no where. If you're referring to Luke, his development made him interesting and less of a caricature and more of an actual person.

 

When was Luke ever a caricature? He changed; we saw him "level up;" he had human feelings and made mistakes.

[Bilpe]

52 minutes ago, rdhight said:

 

When was Luke ever a caricature? He changed; we saw him "level up;" he had human feelings and made mistakes.

This has got to be a usage error; I think he meant cipher.  But you are right, he was a completely fleshed out character that grew and evolved within the context of the hero's journey.

[Valyrious]

"The character assassination of Luke Skywalker." Hahahahahah. 

This is why people hate it? Good. I can stop caring about their delusional opinions.

Edited December 20, 2017 by Valyrious

[HaSoOoN-MHD]

1 hour ago, rdhight said:

 

When was Luke ever a caricature? He changed; we saw him "level up;" he had human feelings and made mistakes.

Let's be real outside of parts of RotJ Luke is more of a vehicle for the audience than a deep, fleshed out character. 

 

 

5 hours ago, Bilpe said:

From A.B. Guthrie Jr.'s book On Writing:

 

"If by action or word a character proves himself unscrupulous or vicious, so be it.  Allow him whatever good qualities he has, but remember, no matter the soft yet cynical assertion that to understand all is to forgive all-a son of a bitch remains a son of a bitch.  No sawdust trail for him.  No being born again.  At bottom he is what he has proven himself to be." (Bold type added by me.  This is a description of a villain but it can be used in the reverse to describe Luke.)

 

No amount of spin from Disney, the filmmakers, or the Star Wars apologists on this site can change the fact that a central character was made to act against his fundamental nature just to serve the plot.  Hey, I understand.  There was a time when I would defend anything Star Wars too, but as someone above has pointed out, I grew up.

 

Maybe the Boba Fett movie will be good and they won't change him to Saint Boba because it makes for a better story.

This is remarkably condescending from someone who kept yapping on about respecting other opinions; and one other thing I wanted to mention: when the canon [or your perception of the canon, that is] becomes more important than telling a good story it's not a franchise worth continuing.

Edited December 20, 2017 by HaSoOoN-MHD

[Bilpe]

17 minutes ago, HaSoOoN-MHD said:

Let's be real outside of parts of RotJ Luke is more of a vehicle for the audience than a deep, fleshed out character. 

 

 

This is remarkably condescending from someone who kept yapping on about respecting other opinions; and one other thing I wanted to mention: when the canon [or your perception of the canon, that is] becomes more important than telling a good story it's not a franchise worth continuing.

I'm very sorry you were offended, but just because you don't understand how it applies to the discussion doesn't mean it's condescending.  I never said anything that would suggest I don't respect your or anyone else's opinion.  If it is the word apologist that bothered you, perhaps you would feel better knowing that it simply means "a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial".

 

As far as Luke not being a fleshed out character, you are missing the point of the original trilogy.  He is a very good paradigm of Campbell's The Hero's Journey.  To not concede this point, at a minimum, is either to be purposefully antagonistic or purposefully obtuse.

[Romanus1]

If you really think Rey is on the same evolution as Luke then please read this 

 

https://medium.com/@josvchoi/the-last-jedi-on-the-character-assassination-of-luke-skywalker-38fe0190d01a

 

trust me she is not both Luke and his Dad failed over and over its what made them the people they are people like Rey is shown as who everything comes easy in history are never what they seem and are more than likely to be evil in the end 

 

sometimes I think people miss that Lucas borrowed from legends and other sources when making the OT there is elements of kind arthur in there

 

you also have to remember the timing of all that we have seen not  a day has gone by till we see her and Luke again in TLJ and did Luke train her not really he had one session with her and then at the end of the movie what a week later he is saying she is a Jedi last time I checked it took years to be one hell Luke had the training and only became one according to Yoda after he dealt with this father and the emperor

[HaSoOoN-MHD]

29 minutes ago, Bilpe said:

I'm very sorry you were offended, but just because you don't understand how it applies to the discussion doesn't mean it's condescending.  I never said anything that would suggest I don't respect your or anyone else's opinion.  If it is the word apologist that bothered you, perhaps you would feel better knowing that it simply means "a person who offers an argument in defense of something controversial".

 

As far as Luke not being a fleshed out character, you are missing the point of the original trilogy.  He is a very good paradigm of Campbell's The Hero's Journey.  To not concede this point, at a minimum, is either to be purposefully antagonistic or purposefully obtuse.

If you're going to condescend man up to it don't pretend you weren't implying that we're all blind deluded children for liking the movie that you didn't like.

 

This is also something i'v noticed a lot when the OT is brought up, actually. You're proving my point here by mentioning The Hero's Journey - which for some reason people act like it is this in depth sacred text that alleviates the OT into unattainable high art - it is the most basic template for the progression of the protagonist/story which is fine it's own right and I cannot stress enough that IT WORKED FOR THE ORIGINAL TRILOGY but where the story is at right now and where the franchise is at right now Luke had to change. 

 

15 minutes ago, Romanus1 said:

If you really think Rey is on the same evolution as Luke then please read this 

 

https://medium.com/@josvchoi/the-last-jedi-on-the-character-assassination-of-luke-skywalker-38fe0190d01a

 

trust me she is not both Luke and his Dad failed over and over its what made them the people they are people like Rey is shown as who everything comes easy in history are never what they seem and are more than likely to be evil in the end 

 

sometimes I think people miss that Lucas borrowed from legends and other sources when making the OT there is elements of kind arthur in there

 

you also have to remember the timing of all that we have seen not  a day has gone by till we see her and Luke again in TLJ and did Luke train her not really he had one session with her and then at the end of the movie what a week later he is saying she is a Jedi last time I checked it took years to be one hell Luke had the training and only became one according to Yoda after he dealt with this father and the emperor

The same way Kylo is this incredibly fucking powerful Sith when he's for all intents and purposes incredibly young for his talents and strength. There is a lot of raw power in both Rey and Kylo; and it is directly stated that Rey's power is a consequence to Kylo's own.

Edited December 20, 2017 by HaSoOoN-MHD

[Bilpe]

11 minutes ago, HaSoOoN-MHD said:

for some reason people act like it is this in depth sacred text that alleviates the OT into unattainable high art

I think the word you were looking for was elevates; see, now that was condescending.  And just a reminder: respecting someone's opinion and agreeing with it are oftentimes (as is the case here) mutually exclusive.

 

The difference in the original trilogy and what is being produced now is that the new movies don't hold up to serious analysis.  They are weak on setting, plot, characters, conflict and theme (the five elements of a story).  If you are the kind of person that is okay with some space ships and some lasers and some CGI creatures and think it's kind of cool that they fly around and crash and shoot at each other, then I'm happy for you.  There is a reason people have been watching and talking about and analyzing the original trilogy for forty years.  I doubt they will be talking about these movies four years from now (Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, anyone?).  If you like the new movies, again I'm happy for you, keep giving Disney your money.

[HaSoOoN-MHD]

51 minutes ago, Bilpe said:

I think the word you were looking for was elevates; see, now that was condescending.  And just a reminder: respecting someone's opinion and agreeing with it are oftentimes (as is the case here) mutually exclusive.

 

The difference in the original trilogy and what is being produced now is that the new movies don't hold up to serious analysis.  They are weak on setting, plot, characters, conflict and theme (the five elements of a story).  If you are the kind of person that is okay with some space ships and some lasers and some CGI creatures and think it's kind of cool that they fly around and crash and shoot at each other, then I'm happy for you.  There is a reason people have been watching and talking about and analyzing the original trilogy for forty years.  I doubt they will be talking about these movies four years from now (Star Trek V: The Final Frontier, anyone?).  If you like the new movies, again I'm happy for you, keep giving Disney your money.

Hey-ho thanks for proving my point with this post and I appreciate the honesty. You don't need to agree with my opinion, but you very clearly said that anyone who doesn't see things your way is a child and/or a fanboy. It's all in this thread, I don't have to backtrack to show it to you; and you condescend even further here.

 

I'd argue The Last Jedi does hold up under scrutiny. The whole movie is about those new characters fighting against the mold and the narrative that they have to live up to; and the movie as a whole has an almost meta tone to it in regards to the new trilogy, it's place in the franchise and even the fans too. The way it deals with the light/dark paradigm and the force is also very interesting. It has more substance than the entirety of the prequel series, TFA and Rogue One combined [as much as I love Rogue One] and no one is claiming TLJ is this intellectual giant of a film but it is genuinely good.

 

People have been talking and analyzing the original trilogy for 40 years partially because of the context when they came out, because they genuinely are great movies and because everyone has fucking nostalgia goggles on, too.

[Bilpe]

6 minutes ago, HaSoOoN-MHD said:

You don't need to agree with my opinion, but you very clearly said that anyone who doesn't see things your way is a child and/or a fanboy.

Nope, not even once.  If it were so you would have quoted it here.

 

I have no problem discussing the merits of the movies.  But you seem to have gotten butt hurt because I was trying to help another poster understand what you were talking about when you used the word caricature incorrectly.  It really isn't that serious.

 

I invite you to provide concrete examples to support your argument, instead of vague generalizations and personal attacks.  This is a discussion forum, after all.  If you would focus on your argument rather than trying to tell me what I meant, you might just be able to change someone's mind. 

 

Let's start over.  Here is your opportunity to discuss my last post.  If you can, please explain how the new trilogy improves upon or equals the original trilogy in any of the five elements of a story that I listed above.

[Bullstomp]

36 minutes ago, Bilpe said:

Nope, not even once.  If it were so you would have quoted it here.

 

I have no problem discussing the merits of the movies.  But you seem to have gotten butt hurt because I was trying to help another poster understand what you were talking about when you used the word caricature incorrectly.  It really isn't that serious.

 

I invite you to provide concrete examples to support your argument, instead of vague generalizations and personal attacks.  This is a discussion forum, after all.  If you would focus on your argument rather than trying to tell me what I meant, you might just be able to change someone's mind. 

 

Let's start over.  Here is your opportunity to discuss my last post.  If you can, please explain how the new trilogy improves upon or equals the original trilogy in any of the five elements of a story that I listed above.

I agree with you. Rey is unrelatable because she is overpowered. Most movies are based on heroes overcoming adversity yet Rey trumps all without breaking a sweat. So much for dramatic tension. . .

 

What was the point of Finn and Rose? The gambling planet, other than to demonize the affluent?

 

Why bring in characters and kill them without developing them, like Snoke?

 

How do bombs drop in zero gravity?

 

The "Mary Poppins" moment wtf?!?

 

What they did with Luke was completely out of character from episode 4-6. He put himself at mortal risk to save his father from the dark side but now considers killing his nephew, A KID, with the same affliction? W.T.H.

 

I could go on but I won't.  I have come to realize that Star Wars, which used to have multi-generational appeal, is now targeted to an audience that I am not a part of.

[HaSoOoN-MHD]

9 hours ago, Bilpe said:

  There was a time when I would defend anything Star Wars too, but as someone above has pointed out, I grew up.

 

Maybe the Boba Fett movie will be good and they won't change him to Saint Boba because it makes for a better story.

Since you asked me to quote.

 

With that aside, let's take those five elements and take about them in relation to TLJ because TFA is a good starting point and not much else. It's good, sure - but that's about it.

 

Setting: it's Star Wars. I'm not quite sure how the setting for the new trilogy is any weaker than the the original trilogy, it's basically the same set up. If anything it's a little bit more grim; victory at the end of the OT felt conclusive but the struggle between the rebellion and the remains of the Empire feel almost like an eternal, never ending deadlock.

 

Plot: What are you gripes with the plot, precisely? I think i'd come to a better understanding if you'd elaborate because plot is very, very vague. I could concede that TFA's lack of originality lead to a weak spot but speaking strictly from a writing perspective doesn't that make ANH weak, too?

 

Characters: this is probably the best thing this new series of movies has done. Lots of genuinely good characters; some providing completely fresh perspectives [Finn, effectively a nobody from The First Order;] some being new takes on older archetypes [Poe, a person who tries to live up to the Han Solo ideal who's soon faced with the harsh reality of what being a hero actually means - not always being brash and the first to pull the trigger] and some being wholly unique for the franchise as a whole [Kylo Ren; who's almost an inverse Vader in a way. He's complicated, filled with conflict and very vicious and destructive] and Rey, the controversial protagonist of this new series of movies; is admittedly the least interesting of the bunch at first but with TLJ + TFA her crisis of identity and need to belong and the conflict that brews inside of her give her a very interesting place in the SW mythology. Even the smaller characters like DJ [Benicio Del Toro's character] serve a certain purpose, in his case he's just the kind of person that understands the whole political fight means very much for the little guy like him.

 

 

Conflict: I'd like to hear your side here, once again. To better understand what your gripes are in relation to what aspect you take issue with. Is it with Kylo Ren/Snoke? Rey supposedly being too powerful? The First Order?

 

Theme: IMO this is where TLJ shines the most. I'm going to retread some ground i'v already mentioned here for the sake of being conclusive in this post, but the movie is just so good at deconstructing the mythology of the SW universe while glamorizing it and reminding us all why we tune in year in and year out. It's filled with a lot of familiar elements but a lot of fresh takes as well which is precisely what a second generation SW movie should look like.

The entire movie is effectively about those young, new characters living in a world with a set narrative that they feel like they have to live up to, and the whole conflict is them fighting against those constraints and prejudices. Maybe i'm giving the movie too much credit but the film almost goes meta in that regard, in relation to it's place in the canon and the perception of the fans.

 

All the main characters - Rey, Luke, Kylo, Poe, Finn, they all have their own struggle to live up to a certain archetype they believe in. Rey tries to live up the Jedi mythos, Kylo tries to live up to being the heir apparent of Vader, Poe tries to live up to the ideal of the dashing rogue archetype; so on and so forth. And ultimately that narrative is entirely bullshit.

Light and dark are two sides of the same coin. The film is very ROTJ in that regards, peering into that duality. Rey who is on the side of the ''good guys'' ends up channeling her rage and anger and the dark side to get to the bottom of the truth and continue fighting for the rebellion. Kylo who is all but lost to the dark side ultimately shows humanity, sometimes more than Luke who is supposed to be the paragon of the light. Luke himself in an effort to stave off the dark tries to murder Kylo if just for a single split second; which puts him squarely in on a moral horizon.

Poe who at the start of the film is playing the loner, stubborn scoundrel ends up costing lives and misjudging the admiral who saves the rebellion by sacrificing herself - he understands that being a hero is more than a quick trigger finger.

This is reflected in the direction and costumes too. At his lowest Luke is wearing white because he is so partisan at that point that he cannot see other ways out of his slow crawl towards death. Rey who is struggling between her past and present and the dark and light is wearing grey; and Kylo despite being all black shows more humanity than Luke does at times, but it's supposed to be the other way around right?

The film is just filled with so many thematic connotations like that that made it so interesting to watch and genuinely fresh.

17 minutes ago, Bullstomp said:

I agree with you. Rey is unrelatable because she is overpowered. Most movies are based on heroes overcoming adversity yet Rey trumps all without breaking a sweat. So much for dramatic tension. . .

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

What was the point of Finn and Rose? The gambling planet, other than to demonize the affluent?

 

 

Why bring in characters and kill them without developing them, like Snoke?

 

How do bombs drop in zero gravity?

 

The "Mary Poppins" moment wtf?!?

 

What they did with Luke was completely out of character from episode 4-6. He put himself at mortal risk to save his father from the dark side but now considers killing his nephew, A KID, with the same affliction? W.T.H.

 

 

 

I could go on but I won't.  I have come to realize that Star Wars, which used to have multi-generational appeal, is now targeted to an audience that I am not a part of.

That segment is pretty important to the ending with the kids. It helped give Rose an arc, and if nothing else Benicio Del Toro is a national treasure and I wont complain about him in my Star Wars.

 

Snoke was meant to be like Palpatine in a sense, a sort of plot device for the movie's more intimate, real villain to show through; but I will concede that it felt rushed because Snoke hasn't had near the same screen time or influence as Palpatine. 

 

Not sure how I feel about the Mary Poppins moment either. The idea was solid but the execution left much to be desired.

 

But characters change! Luke can't still be the same Luke from ROTJ. This was a very interesting path to take him through and ultimately Mark puts a lot of heart and soul into his performance in this movie to make it convincing.

[MosesRockefeller]

27 minutes ago, Bullstomp said:

 

  Hide contents

Why bring in characters and kill them without developing them, like Snoke?

 

 

Spoiler

Emperor Palpatine says hello, and so does Obi-Wan Kenobi. I asked this question above, and it was not answered. This is a major example of nostalgia glasses IMO. Palpatine popped up in one or two minor scenes in ESB, much like Snoke in TFA. If anything Snoke had a bigger presence in TFA than Palpatine did in ESB. Then we come to RotJ and TLJ, where Palpatine and Snoke have pretty similar character development. In RotJ, we learn that Palpatine has mentored Vader, is about to wipe out the Rebels, and is willing to cast Vader aside to turn Luke into his new apprentice. In TLJ, we learn that Snoke is about to wipe out the Resistance (we actually learned he mentored Kylo in TFA), and is willing to cast Kylo aside to turn Rey into his new apprentice. RotJ didn't explain how Palpatine was able to use Force Lightning. It didn't explain that he was a Senator and later Supreme Chancellor of the Old Republic. It didn't explain how we was once a humanoid with a "normal" appearance and that he got scarred during a duel. It didn't need to do that to make him an interesting villain. Revealing those things in the prequels made him more interesting, but we didn't have ANY of that when RotJ came out and was a great movie. Likewise, TFA and TLJ did more than enough development with Snoke to make him an interesting villain.

 

I love RotJ. It's probably my favorite of the OT, although ANH, ESB, and RotJ are nearly tied for me. So I'm genuinely confused why a relatively undeveloped character in RotJ was fine, and in TLJ a character that mirrors Palpatine, is not fine and is considered poor writing.

 

And then there's Obi-Wan. All we know about him in ANH before he dies, is that he was a Jedi who was friends with Luke's dad, and that he was starting to train Luke in the ways of the Force.

 

In the OT, small amounts of character development happened several times with less-major characters. Biggs was supposed to be Luke's good friend, but we hardly saw anything about that in ANH. We didn't learn anything about Chewie's past, or who Lando's copilot was in RotJ. The A-Wing pilot who crashed into the Executor was just a random pilot. What was the deal with Lando's cyborg sidekick Lobot? We didn't get answers to any of those things outside of novels and such.

 

Edited December 20, 2017 by MosesRockefeller

[Bilpe]

14 hours ago, HaSoOoN-MHD said:

Since you asked me to quote.

 

With that aside, let's take those five elements and take about them in relation to TLJ because TFA is a good starting point and not much else. It's good, sure - but that's about it.

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Setting: it's Star Wars. I'm not quite sure how the setting for the new trilogy is any weaker than the the original trilogy, it's basically the same set up. If anything it's a little bit more grim; victory at the end of the OT felt conclusive but the struggle between the rebellion and the remains of the Empire feel almost like an eternal, never ending deadlock.

 

 

Plot: What are you gripes with the plot, precisely? I think i'd come to a better understanding if you'd elaborate because plot is very, very vague. I could concede that TFA's lack of originality lead to a weak spot but speaking strictly from a writing perspective doesn't that make ANH weak, too?

 

Characters: this is probably the best thing this new series of movies has done. Lots of genuinely good characters; some providing completely fresh perspectives [Finn, effectively a nobody from The First Order;] some being new takes on older archetypes [Poe, a person who tries to live up to the Han Solo ideal who's soon faced with the harsh reality of what being a hero actually means - not always being brash and the first to pull the trigger] and some being wholly unique for the franchise as a whole [Kylo Ren; who's almost an inverse Vader in a way. He's complicated, filled with conflict and very vicious and destructive] and Rey, the controversial protagonist of this new series of movies; is admittedly the least interesting of the bunch at first but with TLJ + TFA her crisis of identity and need to belong and the conflict that brews inside of her give her a very interesting place in the SW mythology. Even the smaller characters like DJ [Benicio Del Toro's character] serve a certain purpose, in his case he's just the kind of person that understands the whole political fight means very much for the little guy like him.

 

 

Conflict: I'd like to hear your side here, once again. To better understand what your gripes are in relation to what aspect you take issue with. Is it with Kylo Ren/Snoke? Rey supposedly being too powerful? The First Order?

 

Theme: IMO this is where TLJ shines the most. I'm going to retread some ground i'v already mentioned here for the sake of being conclusive in this post, but the movie is just so good at deconstructing the mythology of the SW universe while glamorizing it and reminding us all why we tune in year in and year out. It's filled with a lot of familiar elements but a lot of fresh takes as well which is precisely what a second generation SW movie should look like.

The entire movie is effectively about those young, new characters living in a world with a set narrative that they feel like they have to live up to, and the whole conflict is them fighting against those constraints and prejudices. Maybe i'm giving the movie too much credit but the film almost goes meta in that regard, in relation to it's place in the canon and the perception of the fans.

 

All the main characters - Rey, Luke, Kylo, Poe, Finn, they all have their own struggle to live up to a certain archetype they believe in. Rey tries to live up the Jedi mythos, Kylo tries to live up to being the heir apparent of Vader, Poe tries to live up to the ideal of the dashing rogue archetype; so on and so forth. And ultimately that narrative is entirely bullshit.

Light and dark are two sides of the same coin. The film is very ROTJ in that regards, peering into that duality. Rey who is on the side of the ''good guys'' ends up channeling her rage and anger and the dark side to get to the bottom of the truth and continue fighting for the rebellion. Kylo who is all but lost to the dark side ultimately shows humanity, sometimes more than Luke who is supposed to be the paragon of the light. Luke himself in an effort to stave off the dark tries to murder Kylo if just for a single split second; which puts him squarely in on a moral horizon.

Poe who at the start of the film is playing the loner, stubborn scoundrel ends up costing lives and misjudging the admiral who saves the rebellion by sacrificing herself - he understands that being a hero is more than a quick trigger finger.

This is reflected in the direction and costumes too. At his lowest Luke is wearing white because he is so partisan at that point that he cannot see other ways out of his slow crawl towards death. Rey who is struggling between her past and present and the dark and light is wearing grey; and Kylo despite being all black shows more humanity than Luke does at times, but it's supposed to be the other way around right?

The film is just filled with so many thematic connotations like that that made it so interesting to watch and genuinely fresh.

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

That segment is pretty important to the ending with the kids. It helped give Rose an arc, and if nothing else Benicio Del Toro is a national treasure and I wont complain about him in my Star Wars.

 

 

Snoke was meant to be like Palpatine in a sense, a sort of plot device for the movie's more intimate, real villain to show through; but I will concede that it felt rushed because Snoke hasn't had near the same screen time or influence as Palpatine. 

 

Not sure how I feel about the Mary Poppins moment either. The idea was solid but the execution left much to be desired.

 

But characters change! Luke can't still be the same Luke from ROTJ. This was a very interesting path to take him through and ultimately Mark puts a lot of heart and soul into his performance in this movie to make it convincing.

 

 

This is good stuff.  You covered a lot of material.  I propose that we deal with the five one at a time, if that is acceptable, starting with character, as this seems to be the main point of contention between those who like the new trilogy and those who don't.  Unfortunately, that also means talking at length about TFA because that is where most of the new characters were introduced.

 

I have two examples, both from Empire, both occurring with the introduction of someone the audience is not yet familiar with.  Each of them is an example of how a single line or two of dialogue can establish character.

1. Darth Vader (gesturing toward Boba Fett): No disintegrations.  Boba Fett: As you wish.
2. Princess Leia (referring to Lando Calrissian):  Do you trust him?  Han Solo:  No, but he is my friend.

The first demonstrates immediately that Fett is a bad ass (I know this point can be argued after RotJ, but still).  The second demonstrates that Lando can't necessarily be trusted.  Both instantly give you an idea of just who we're dealing with here.  Both demonstrate foreshadowing and world building as well, but that is a topic for another time.

 

In my opinion, this is largely missing from the new trilogy.  If you insert one sixty second scene in the Resistance hanger with Finn, this could have been done with Poe Dameron.  For example:  Hangar Guy (to Finn):  You're Dameron's friend?  Finn:  Yeah, something like that.  Hangar guy:  Well, I'd be careful.  He gets his friends killed.

 

Now, this is only one example, and it is entirely possible that I missed something.  I honestly don't remember anything similar to this in TFA, though, for any of the three new lead characters.

 

 

[You]

I'll keep my post short but, the film was terrible, factually awful. How many more franchises in my lifetime do I have to see be ruined. It's very sad.

[Bilpe]

17 hours ago, HaSoOoN-MHD said:

But characters change! Luke can't still be the same Luke from ROTJ. This was a very interesting path to take him through and ultimately Mark puts a lot of heart and soul into his performance in this movie to make it convincing.

 

 

One other thing occurred to me after reading through your post a second time.  I don't think anyone expected Luke to NOT change.  I know that I didn't.  What I expected was for him to grow more into the wise old master archetype.  He's been there and done, to borrow a phrase.  One can only assume that he has been practicing and studying the force since RotJ ended.  This alone should give him unprecedented insight into the ways of the Force because of all that has come before.  He's an old man now; he once faced down Vader and the Emperor; what could he possibly be confronted with that would throw him into such disarray at this point in his life?  Unless it is something so unique and so beyond comprehension that there has never been anything like it, going all the way back to the earliest days of the Jedi.  And if that is the case, SAY IT.  If children are being born with ten or one hundred or even one thousand times the Force ability that Anakin Skywalker had, then for God's sake someone SAY IT.  Then Rey and Kylo Ren's story and Luke's fear make some sense.  And the audience is not left to guess at what the filmmakers were trying to do.

[Bilpe]

Well, if a link with just some guy telling you what's wrong with TLJ isn't enough, try this one:

 

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/454564/star-wars-last-jedi-unoriginal-tone-deaf-mess

 

an actual review written by an actual film critic.  And what is with all this indignation?  If you can defend this film, by all means jump in and do it.  If your entire argument consists of name calling the people that are saying things you don't want to hear, no one will think lesser of you for jumping ship.

[MosesRockefeller]

8 hours ago, Bilpe said:

One other thing occurred to me after reading through your post a second time.  I don't think anyone expected Luke to NOT change.  I know that I didn't.  What I expected was for him to grow more into the wise old master archetype.  He's been there and done, to borrow a phrase.  One can only assume that he has been practicing and studying the force since RotJ ended.  This alone should give him unprecedented insight into the ways of the Force because of all that has come before.  He's an old man now; he once faced down Vader and the Emperor; what could he possibly be confronted with that would throw him into such disarray at this point in his life?  Unless it is something so unique and so beyond comprehension that there has never been anything like it, going all the way back to the earliest days of the Jedi.  And if that is the case, SAY IT.  If children are being born with ten or one hundred or even one thousand times the Force ability that Anakin Skywalker had, then for God's sake someone SAY IT.  Then Rey and Kylo Ren's story and Luke's fear make some sense.  And the audience is not left to guess at what the filmmakers were trying to do.

Luke never faced a kid (who was his nephew no less) being filled with the Dark side of the Force. That's a totally different situation to him facing down Vader and the Emperor. One of them was his father, yes, but it was a father he never knew. That's very different from watching his nephew grow up, then discovering that he had already started turning to the Dark side. I'm not sure what more the movie needed to say there. It doesn't seem like a big character leap that the big Hero of the OT would be disillusioned by the betrayal of his nephew, or that he would get tired of living under the shadow of the "great hero" from the most notorious family in the galaxy. It seems like a very realistic character growth to me.

[ziggypossum]

 

[Bilpe]

12 hours ago, MosesRockefeller said:

Luke never faced a kid (who was his nephew no less) being filled with the Dark side of the Force. That's a totally different situation to him facing down Vader and the Emperor. One of them was his father, yes, but it was a father he never knew. That's very different from watching his nephew grow up, then discovering that he had already started turning to the Dark side. I'm not sure what more the movie needed to say there. It doesn't seem like a big character leap that the big Hero of the OT would be disillusioned by the betrayal of his nephew, or that he would get tired of living under the shadow of the "great hero" from the most notorious family in the galaxy. It seems like a very realistic character growth to me.

I understand where you're coming from, but for many (like me) this is just a bridge too far, to borrow a phrase.  I feel like the makers of the new trilogy missed their real opportunity. We needed to see Luke training the kids and Ben Solo's inevitable decline toward the dark side.  That should have been the story.  They could have found a way to work the Starkiller thing and all that other stuff in if that's what they wanted to do.  But you show Luke's failure and you show Ben's fall and it all makes sense.  You understand why they are behaving they way they do.  What ended up happening is that they stretched what should have amounted to the second act of episode nine into three new movies.  (Truth be told, I'd bet Harrison Ford only agreed to one movie and with the caveat that his character is killed, and that is why the trilogy is structured the way it is and feels so rushed.)

[Romanus1]

3 hours ago, Bilpe said:

I understand where you're coming from, but for many (like me) this is just a bridge too far, to borrow a phrase.  I feel like the makers of the new trilogy missed their real opportunity. We needed to see Luke training the kids and Ben Solo's inevitable decline toward the dark side.  That should have been the story.  They could have found a way to work the Starkiller thing and all that other stuff in if that's what they wanted to do.  But you show Luke's failure and you show Ben's fall and it all makes sense.  You understand why they are behaving they way they do.  What ended up happening is that they stretched what should have amounted to the second act of episode nine into three new movies.  (Truth be told, I'd bet Harrison Ford only agreed to one movie and with the caveat that his character is killed, and that is why the trilogy is structured the way it is and feels so rushed.)

 

 

 

You are right I read a interview with Ford after TFA that was his wish for Han to die he wanted to die after Empire and not got that chance so he asked them to kill Han off

[Bilpe]

15 hours ago, ziggypossum said:

 

Man, I just had time to watch the first half of this, but wow.  They calmly picked apart this movie with humor and insight.  Very nice.  And every word very true.

[that_dude_cam_ps]

I honestly really enjoyed the movie, though it did have its flaws, specifically the subplots with rose/Finn and Poe.. and I definitely liked it more than TFA because it wasn’t a complete JJ abrafied rip off of a new hope. Obviously no new episode or anthology addition will ever live up to the holy OT (pre specialization obviously). but I feel like the main problem with these new movies isn’t necessarily the character development in the last Jedi or even TFA and I’m honestly glad we don’t have a full dark side dev story a la anakain/Darth Vader with Ben/kylo (like has been suggested in this thread). I think the real problem is the overarching storylines is being developed on a film basis vs trilogy basis, I mean JJ did the first, Johnson improved upon that (my opinion) and added his own characters and subplots and changed the course of what I feel like JJ had in mind for certain characters like plasma and snoke. And now JJ is coming back to wrap it up and I’m really afraid he’s gonna dick it up by trying to force back in those characters through flashbacks/ revivals etc. Plus obviously no ones fault but Carrie Fisher died and she survives in TLJ, so how do you work that in without it feeling forced like an unceremonious off screen death between episodes..I think this trilogy feels somewhat incoherent, even if each film stands on its own just fine. Even the prequel trilogy that was terrible still had a coherent throughline despite horrible cringeworthy dialogue lol. This feels like it’s going to yo-yo.. I’m worried about Ep 9 honestly, especially since JJ is back, I dislike his direction style in TFA, it feels too much like Star Trek. And they are totally different franchises

Edited December 22, 2017 by cam_wick
Typo

[Oobedoob S Benubi]

8 minutes ago, cam_wick said:

I honestly really enjoyed the movie, though it did have its flaws, specifically the subplots with rose/Finn and Poe.. and I definitely liked it more than TFA because it wasn’t a complete JJ abrafied rip off of a new hope. Obviously no new episode or anthology addition will ever live up to the holy OT (pre specialization obviously). but I feel like the main problem with these new movies isn’t necessarily the character development in the last Jedi or even TFA and I’m honestly glad we don’t have a full dark side dev story a la anakain/Darth Vader with Ben/kylo (like has been suggested in this thread). I think the real problem is the overarching storylines is being developed on a film basis vs trilogy basis, I mean JJ did the first, Johnson improved upon that (my opinion) and added his own characters and subplots and changed the course of what I feel like JJ had in mind for certain characters like plasma and snoke. And now JJ is coming back to wrap it up and I’m really afraid he’s gonna dick it up by trying to force back in those characters through flashbacks/ revivals etc. Plus obviously no ones fault but Carrie Fisher died and she survives in TLJ, so how do you work that in without it feeling forced like an unceremonious off screen death between episodes..I think this trilogy feels somewhat incoherent, even if each film stands on its own just fine. Even the prequel trilogy that was terrible still had a coherent throughline despite horrible cringeworthy dialogue lol. This feels like it’s going to yo-yo.. I’m worried about Ep 9 honestly, especially since JJ is back, I dislike his direction style in TFA, it feels too much like Star Trek. And they are totally different franchises

 

Look @MosesRockefeller, someone trying to discuss the actual movie! Yay!

 

I'm afraid for 9 because JJ is back as well. But at worst it'll be watchable, I'm more scared that the Solo movie next year will be terrible. But at least they have a great Lando in Donald Glover.

 

The Casino bit was the low point of the film for me. Because for me, Star Wars was about absolute good versus absolute evil, the war profiteers don't really fit into this. I liked Benicio del Toro's character though, kind of the bad sides of Han/Lando without too many redeeming characteristics.

 

I like Kylo Ren's development, how we see him in 7/8 was how I would have liked to see Anakin in 2/3.

 

I love what Johnson did with this movie and I'm very glad that Disney/Lucasfilm gave him his own unnumbered trilogy to write with lots of artistic freedom.

 

I loved TLJ the most for subverting my expectations in a good way, for doing more with the Force (in the movies, it was mostly lightsabers, levitation and a bit of mind tricks, while this movie make them more the wizards in space that I'm used to from the books), and for having more great vehicle shots. When the TIE Fighter Attack theme started playing... Wow, just like Moses said before. I also think those salt skimmers are awesome, and a logical conclusion to the Used Universe setting the originals had.

 

I've seen the movie three times now with four different people, in different grades of the fandom. All of us thought TLJ was one of the best Star Wars movies. Tomorrow, I'll be going with my dad, who is more traditional in his views of story continuation and wizards (he's a fantasy fiction nut), so I can't wait to see how he views the film.

[MeteorHawk]

I saw it three times. As a longtime Star Wars fan (not that that really makes a difference) I loved it. I can see where folks are finding fault with it but at the same time I find it amazing that suddenly everyone thinks they're Roger Ebert because they think they can analyse (mostly for the first time ever) a big film in-depth. Everyone's entitled to their opinions but I think those who think Star Wars has been "ruined" (bitch please the prequels already did that) or their childhoods have been betrayed (it hasn't, stop overreacting) or they "felt like leaving the theater they were so angry" (you didn't and you weren't, get over yourself) or they handled the characters badly (pfft, whatever, I thought it was the best Luke Skywalker there's ever been) or simply that it was "too different" (you bitched about TFA being too similar to ANH) are deluded to think that making their loud voices heard will change anything. You're not going to change anything because the fact of the matter is the film is a critical success and is making all the money. Saying dumb shit like "true fans wouldn't like this film" only shows how immature you are. You're not going to change the opinions of the vast majority of people who liked the film. Nor can I change yours. It's just a damn film at the end of the day.