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49 minutes ago, madbuk said:

The problem is, the more evidence you present, the more material the disputer has to manipulate and work with to appear innocent.

 

The disputer is already flagged and has to work with multiple people who know how the game (or trophies) work, and multiple others who already took your stance. The BAA flags currently in rotation go as far as eight years ago.

 

Now you want not to provide them even with the related proof for them to see and refute, if they can.

 

Obviously this is not a court room, but in a fair scenario everyone is allowed transparency. Your stance is every flagged person must've hacked and must be removed. That logic doesn't stand scrutiny more than false timestamps do.

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1 minute ago, ars said:

 

The disputer is already flagged and has to work with multiple people who know how the game (or trophies) work, and multiple others who already took your stance. The BAA flags currently in rotation go as far as eight years ago.

 

Now you want not to provide them even with the related proof for them to see and refute, if they can.

 

Obviously this is not a court room, but in a fair scenario everyone is allowed transparency. Your stance is every flagged person must've hacked and must be removed. That logic doesn't stand scrutiny more than false timestamps do.

My stance is that OP should dispute and say what exactly it is he did and why it's legit. Only evidence relevant to that initial dispute should be posted. OP can than post a rebuttal, and only then should further evidence be shown. Presenting too much evidence from the start provides OP with much more to work with than they should have. In an ideal scenario, all evidence will eventually be presented so that every possible outcome has been evaluated obviously.

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53 minutes ago, Ms Serzilla said:

 

@B1rvine is the only person on that entire thread who told me they watched the video and he told me that the video was very informative and helpful, but since 5-10 minutes of your time to check out when Monox18 was shown in the video was too long for most people, they just decided to bash me without providing any evidence to support Monox18's arguments. 

 

Yep.  That voice you used in the video... was pretty amazing too. ;)   The best piece of evidence was the spot where it showed team members played with imo.  Actually, all of it was pretty good.  I'll admit, before watching the video I was on the fence about everything, but I pretty much almost never chime in unless I'm familiar with the games, or to ask a question, or to point out a non-game fact (like a date a trophy was earned, etc)

 

PS: I may ask you for help with that game someday, since it's on my to buy list.

 

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1 minute ago, B1rvine said:

 

Yep.  That voice you used in the video... was pretty amazing too. ;)   The best piece of evidence was the spot where it showed team members played with imo.  Actually, all of it was pretty good.  I'll admit, before watching the video I was on the fence about everything, but I pretty much almost never chime in unless I'm familiar with the games, or to ask a question, or to point out a non-game fact (like a date a trophy was earned, etc)

 

PS: I may ask you for help with that game someday, since it's on my to buy list.

 

 

Glad you liked it, that's not my real voice but I did say I'd rather talk with a more calm tone since it wasn't supposed to be an aggressive video. If you get the game then yeah I'll help you with the team missions, you just need a good enough internet connection (with Ethernet cable) otherwise it's gonna lag. 

Edited by Ms Serzilla
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3 minutes ago, soultaker655 said:

As it stands the reporter have free rein to do what every they want once they pay there $5/$10. They can report people with very little proof and if they are wrong nothing happens to them.

 

What would you like to do to someone who falsly report people? What if someone reports 100 people for the right reasons and 1 person for the wrong reasons? Should we tell him to stop?  

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2 minutes ago, sephiroth4424 said:

What would you like to do to someone who falsly report people? What if someone reports 100 people for the right reasons and 1 person for the wrong reasons? Should we tell him to stop?  

 

I'd say in regards to that, you get like a 1 week ban from reporting or something, the option to report shouldn't be permanently removed for someone because they could come up with legitimate reasons to flag people for other games. 

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Just now, sephiroth4424 said:

What would you like to do to someone who falsly report people? What if someone reports 100 people for the right reasons and 1 person for the wrong reasons? Should we tell him to stop?  

Take away there ability to report for a while. If they report 100 people and 1 or 2 are false flags they should still lose their ability to report for a set time because a false flag means they either don't know enough about the game to report someone or they didn't do enough research before reporting someone. The burden of proof lies with the reporter who is accusing someone of hacking/cheating not the disputer. If the reporter is wrong they must suffer the consequence of being wrong.

 

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6 minutes ago, Ms Serzilla said:

 

I'd say in regards to that, you get like a 1 week ban from reporting or something, the option to report shouldn't be permanently removed for someone because they could come up with legitimate reasons to flag people for other games. 

 

2 minutes ago, soultaker655 said:

Take away there ability to report for a while. If they report 100 people and 1 or 2 are false flags they should still lose their ability to report for a set time because a false flag means they either don't know enough about the game to report someone or they didn't do enough research before reporting someone. The burden of proof lies with the reporter who is accusing someone of hacking/cheating not the disputer. If the reporter is wrong they must suffer the consequence of being wrong.

 

One practical problem i can see with this is that you can't know if that person got punished since we don't know the reporter's identity (unless the person who got flagged can see who reported him).Personally i don't assume every person who starts a dispute thread is guilty,and i believe that there are a lot of disputes we never see because the reported person preffered to just hide the game or remove his profile (i feel like i killed that sentence,my apologies)

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2 hours ago, FOX said:

It actually baffled me that some people, who are obviously just virtue signaling and contributing nothing to Dispute threads but making some empty claims are still not banned from that subforum.

 

This is one reason why I feel Disputes should be handled without screennames displayed. Because of this ^ rising attitude of "I've done X here, other people who haven't done X are irrelevant and so are their opinions". Because I feel this narcissistic posturing of "I'm on the Dispute Team, and who are you?" from certain individuals is what sours a lot of people on the concept. Without screennames, you aren't getting any likes, you aren't getting any prestige, and you're still handling the business of cleaning the leaderboards, which I thought was the ostensible purpose of the whole thing. It takes ego out of the process, and with the concept of physically allowing access to people who have earned the trophy and pertinent Staff members and no others, there would be no question that people present have the expertise to review the dispute, and identity would be irrelevant.

Edited by damon8r351
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15 minutes ago, damon8r351 said:

This is one reason why I feel Disputes should be handled without screennames displayed.

I feel this way too. I made this suggestion a while ago and nothing came of it. For those unaware of my suggestion, here's a link:

 

Edited by kuuhaku
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3 hours ago, Ms Serzilla said:

 

Withholding information or you're just ignorant? THIS is a post I made shortly after Monox18 opened up his dispute thread, it includes a 19 minute video (that you obviously didn't watch) and a compilation of 95 images that show the similarities between four different people who share the same save data as each other was in the video description, you didn't care to look at that post and instead thought "Oh, Serzilla is the one who reported him, must be a false flag then, throw it out", you know it, I know it. Sure, early on I would make jokes with @MMDE about people doing time attack within seconds, because if they joke about their trophies by saying they're legit, why can't I joke about their trophies for not being legit?

 

If it's a game I've done myself, I will provide the best information I can to either support flagging or unflagging those people, I've been through games on many occasions to find specific people that I've played with on the leaderboards and so on and in some cases they have been discovered as a cheater through their stats in the game. I've also flagged around 100 people for NGS2 in particular simply based on their time stamps and there's more to go so yeah, I'll keep policing with prejudice like you said ;)

 

It's actually funny because in the video I even said there was a possibility that Monox18 was a legitimate platinum achiever who just used the save after getting the platinum, I told him to make a dispute because I thought he'd have videos to back up his points because the game has a feature that allows you to save videos for Team Missions and his claims were that he did the missions 100% legit as Ryu without exploits, to make those claims on that game you need to have the videos to back it up. 

 

@B1rvine is the only person on that entire thread who told me they watched the video and he told me that the video was very informative and helpful, but since 5-10 minutes of your time to check out when Monox18 was shown in the video was too long for most people, they just decided to bash me without providing any evidence to support Monox18's arguments.

 

 

Nope. That's definitely my bad. Didn't watch the 19 minute video. Tried, but there is no subtitles or transcript. I didn't have the means to listen to it and thought your post that was associated with it spelled out your very confusing argument. I just now got my equipment to listen to it. Yes, I have a auditory impairment, go ahead and make fun of me for it. 

Had you merely started the thread with what you pretty simply explained in the video within a few minutes (people with identical stats in the games player stats share save files) with screen shot or two, it would have swayed my view. Now disputes for that game only have to reference if the in game stats are unique/match the trophy requirements and the dispute can be closed quickly. 

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3 hours ago, Ms Serzilla said:

 

Withholding information or you're just ignorant? THIS is a post I made shortly after Monox18 opened up his dispute thread, it includes a 19 minute video (that you obviously didn't watch) and a compilation of 95 images that show the similarities between four different people who share the same save data as each other was in the video description, you didn't care to look at that post and instead thought "Oh, Serzilla is the one who reported him, must be a false flag then, throw it out", you know it, I know it. Sure, early on I would make jokes with @MMDE about people doing time attack within seconds, because if they joke about their trophies by saying they're legit, why can't I joke about their trophies for not being legit?

 

If it's a game I've done myself, I will provide the best information I can to either support flagging or unflagging those people, I've been through games on many occasions to find specific people that I've played with on the leaderboards and so on and in some cases they have been discovered as a cheater through their stats in the game. I've also flagged around 100 people for NGS2 in particular simply based on their time stamps and there's more to go so yeah, I'll keep policing with prejudice like you said ;)

 

It's actually funny because in the video I even said there was a possibility that Monox18 was a legitimate platinum achiever who just used the save after getting the platinum, I told him to make a dispute because I thought he'd have videos to back up his points because the game has a feature that allows you to save videos for Team Missions and his claims were that he did the missions 100% legit as Ryu without exploits, to make those claims on that game you need to have the videos to back it up. 

 

@B1rvine is the only person on that entire thread who told me they watched the video and he told me that the video was very informative and helpful, but since 5-10 minutes of your time to check out when Monox18 was shown in the video was too long for most people, they just decided to bash me without providing any evidence to support Monox18's arguments. 

 

 

I'm gonna say what a lot of people think but don't want to say because of your reputation on this site. In threads like this, you get 'bashed' because of your general attitude and how rude you are. I've seen it myself on multiple posts as well as your gaming sessions. You have very valid points and I actually agree with most of them but the way you put them across is just not cool dude. Manners cost nothing. I've even seen you say before something like 'this is how I am, I swear and I'm rude, if you don't like it then deal with it'. Well, people 'bashing' you is because they don't want to have to deal with that kind of rudeness. 

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1 hour ago, DaivRules said:

 

Nope. That's definitely my bad. Didn't watch the 19 minute video. Tried, but there is no subtitles or transcript. I didn't have the means to listen to it and thought your post that was associated with it spelled out your very confusing argument. I just now got my equipment to listen to it. Yes, I have a auditory impairment, go ahead and make fun of me for it. 

Had you merely started the thread with what you pretty simply explained in the video within a few minutes (people with identical stats in the games player stats share save files) with screen shot or two, it would have swayed my view. Now disputes for that game only have to reference if the in game stats are unique/match the trophy requirements and the dispute can be closed quickly. 

 

I did try my best to explain it to people who hadn't even watched the video. This post explains how people could upload the scores from that save to the leaderboard. Your post that was bashing me for reporting someone on grounds that you did not believe in was after that post. I felt like after spending a lot of time making the video and compiling the image I wouldn't need to explain too much to people on the dispute thread. There's nothing wrong with you having a hearing impairment, I wouldn't blame you for that but the video was for whoever was on the flagging team and seeing the report and I would assume that they do not have any hearing impairments. 

 

49 minutes ago, turpinator1986 said:

 

I'm gonna say what a lot of people think but don't want to say because of your reputation on this site. In threads like this, you get 'bashed' because of your general attitude and how rude you are. I've seen it myself on multiple posts as well as your gaming sessions. You have very valid points and I actually agree with most of them but the way you put them across is just not cool dude. Manners cost nothing. I've even seen you say before something like 'this is how I am, I swear and I'm rude, if you don't like it then deal with it'. Well, people 'bashing' you is because they don't want to have to deal with that kind of rudeness. 

 

When you see it in gaming sessions, I specified that I will take a no-nonsense approach, I'm not there to make friends with people who ask me for help with a trophy that I have earned already, they only want my help with a trophy then we go our separate ways, so if they are messing up performing a simple move that I told them to learn before joining, they shouldn't expect me to take it kindly. It's the internet and none of you people will have a significant impact on my personal life, so I feel like in a lot of cases it's okay to talk how you want as long as you get your point across. I don't blatantly bash people without providing an argument, I would never look at a dispute thread and think "they should be unflagged because (insert person here) was the one who reported them". If anything I did offends people, they are free to consult me in the PMs to discuss what happened, but instead what they do is decide to try to derail any threads I make because it's me, no other reason. But I don't have any hatred towards anyone here, I go out of my way to help a lot of people with a trophy which takes hours each time but on this forum people don't understand that and think I'm just a dick and what I say to that is fuck the haters. 

Edited by Ms Serzilla
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33 minutes ago, Ms Serzilla said:

 

When you see it in gaming sessions, I specified that I will take a no-nonsense approach, I'm not there to make friends with people who ask me for help with a trophy that I have earned already, they only want my help with a trophy then we go our separate ways, so if they are messing up performing a simple move that I told them to learn before joining, they shouldn't expect me to take it kindly. It's the internet and none of you people will have a significant impact on my personal life, so I feel like in a lot of cases it's okay to talk how you want as long as you get your point across. I don't blatantly bash people without providing an argument, I would never look at a dispute thread and think "they should be unflagged because (insert person here) was the one who reported them". If anything I did offends people, they are free to consult me in the PMs to discuss what happened, but instead what they do is decide to try to derail any threads I make because it's me, no other reason. But I don't have any hatred towards anyone here, I go out of my way to help a lot of people with a trophy which takes hours each time but on this forum people don't understand that and think I'm just a dick and what I say to that is fuck the haters. 

 

I can assure you, from extensive experience and despite my repeated attempts to prove to myself otherwise, that that sort of attitude gets you nowhere. I'd have thought you, of all people, would've have realized that by now. :P

Edited by damon8r351
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I'm with @Ms Serzilla on this.  I'd rather folks who hadn't play the game/got the plat/100% to not say anything.  I would wish certain folks who posted on this thread wouldn't be so disingenuous either, but that's fine....

 

Most of the people who report games have done the game themselves.  I take folks like Serg opinion seriously because he knows said game like the back of his hand.

Edited by grimydawg
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I don't know about all this dispute stuff...I think there are a broad range of views, personalities, life situations/experiences and personal evolution on this site...is the current system really the best one to deal with flagged games?...I don't know...I think that everyone has an opinion and that just about anything implemented could be seen as positive/negative to some...

 

what I see are a lot of inconsistencies within the dispute threads as they are...particularly with regards to equal respect for all members...I feel that sometimes things have gotten pretty darn personal to no benefit of the dispute at hand or that a lot is going on behind the scenes...i have no evidence to support this, just a general feeling through the few disputes I've followed...

 

I think, as silly as it sounds, it is in fact too much to ask people to respect one another unconditionally...so what do we do?...create a specific team that upholds diplomacy at all times but may not possess the same amount of knowledge as the entire community which could lead to missing critical info?...or open up participation to anyone who feels they may have a relevant comment which, as we have seen, can severely impact consistency and diplomacy?...is there a happy middle?...

 

I don't think the idea in this thread is a solution that pleases all...why?...human error...some glitches are rare...some "experts" might bear more weight on a decision than they deserve due to their status...some "non-experts" are good at asking relevant questions and being respectful...I hear the argument that you shouldn't ask an art student to give a lesson on history (or whatever) but on the flip side does that mean we shouldn't hire a computer programmer to help fight terrorism since he knows barely anything about the latter?...perhaps just more mediation/moderation for the current system?...that's never fun though...

 

as a parent and business owner, I like the idea of trial and error...I think if there is enough dissatisfaction with something, as seems to be the case with these disputes, then perhaps it might be worth brainstorming a bit, and giving something else a shot...we could always come back to the drawing table later if something flops and start the process all over again...to me this = success...better to try and fail.........and yes, these threads are just a tiny portion of what this site has to offer but clearly enough people care so perhaps time to come up with a new game plan or close this thread...no suggestions for improvement on my end that haven't already been ignored so all I've got on the topic here...and apologies, have barely read any of the posts...cheers...

Edited by ProfBambam55
Cell...typos...
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9 minutes ago, Brightblade76 said:

I lurk the dispute threads, I find them somehow interesting, but only post if I know the games very well. One suggestion I want to give is to automatically include the reasons for the flags in the actual dispute first post, cause very few people do that.

 

I agree. Disputes would be over quicker if it was known what the flag was about in the first place

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6 minutes ago, Brightblade76 said:

I lurk the dispute threads, I find them somehow interesting, but only post if I know the games very well. One suggestion I want to give is to automatically include the reasons for the flags in the actual dispute first post, cause very few people do that.

I've actually tried to PM folks in regards to try making that easier, but that clearly hasn't worked.  It looks like I'll have to talk to Sly about that.

 

I agree with @soultaker655 about folks needing to be refrained for flagging for a certain period of time.  When I have cronies do this, they should be refrained for flagging:

 

This is what a report looks like.  Middle sentences are for the reason.  I decide if it's legit or not (green for legit, red will say cheat).  When I have disingenuous folks who post BS like this, they wonder why I don't value their opinion.  But I'm "narcissistic" or I have and "ego problem." I better stop now or I might get told on SMH

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@grimydawg I can appreciate you asking people refrain from posting unless they played the game (or have no technical insight to contribute). @Ms Serzilla I think it took all two pages to clear up the reasons why you have this thread up, ie. you carefully preparing a case against a person and people not taking the time to review the evidence - okay, since it's a 20 minute video you put up on an external site... Think Serge's solution and the multiple others suggested before go way too far into bureaucracy, though.

 

If a ) the post automatically included the reasons for the flag like suggested, and b ) the topic automatically included the game, I'd think this already would provide substance beyond "there's a new dispute thread listed". That should remove a lot of random participation, since users will already see if it's a game they played or didn't without viewing the thread. Viewing the thread prompts the reply, because the poster is triggered by something either in the dispute post, or in the posts of whoever were the first to reply.

 

Those two shouldn't be massive timesinkers to code in.

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6 minutes ago, ars said:

@grimydawg I can appreciate you asking people refrain from posting unless they played the game (or have no technical insight to contribute). @Ms Serzilla I think it took all two pages to clear up the reasons why you have this thread up, ie. you carefully preparing a case against a person and people not taking the time to review the evidence - okay, since it's a 20 minute video you put up on an external site... Think Serge's solution and the multiple others suggested before go way too far into bureaucracy, though.

 

If a ) the post automatically included the reasons for the flag like suggested, and b ) the topic automatically included the game, I'd think this already would provide substance beyond "there's a new dispute thread listed". That should remove a lot of random participation, since users will already see if it's a game they played or didn't without viewing the thread. Viewing the thread prompts the reply, because the poster is triggered by something either in the dispute post, or in the posts of whoever were the first to reply.

 

Those two shouldn't be massive timesinkers to code in.

I honestly don't have any problem with folks' opinions.  Just don't say anything, if there's nothing to contribute.  I don't feel like having to remove posts and do extra stuff, but I will, if I have to.

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3 minutes ago, grimydawg said:

I honestly don't have any problem with folks' opinions.  Just don't say anything, if there's nothing to contribute.  I don't feel like having to remove posts and do extra stuff, but I will, if I have to.

 

What I meant is a "third party" has to view the thread (and generally ask the disputer to copy the flag notification) to find context for the dispute. If the topic includes the game and the dispute post includes the flag information, any posts trying to clarify the situation become unnecessary, and just browsing the topic without reading the thread should disencourage people who know they have nothing to contribute from posting. Providing a little more information makes it easier to not post.

 

Out of curiosity, how many flags are accepted and rejected daily, on average?

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11 minutes ago, ars said:

 

What I meant is a "third party" has to view the thread (and generally ask the disputer to copy the flag notification) to find context for the dispute. If the topic includes the game and the dispute post includes the flag information, any posts trying to clarify the situation become unnecessary, and just browsing the topic without reading the thread should disencourage people who know they have nothing to contribute from posting. Providing a little more information makes it easier to not post.

 

Out of curiosity, how many flags are accepted and rejected daily, on average?

Talking to Sly about what @Brightblade76 was talking about earlier.  As far as your question goes, I've been getting a lot more than I did before.  I might have gotten 50 total weekly in the past.  I might get that in a day now.  Out of 100 total flags, I might reject one because many of the reports are done on the same game, generally by the same person, too.  Now, I will occasionally overturn the accepted flags.  It's not that often, though.  I have accidentally accepted some flags as well, but that's less than 1% I've messed up.

Edited by grimydawg
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I have a question about the disputes that came up while reading one of the ones currently active...if a person has a glitched trophy in a game and cannot prove it but at the same time no evidence is submitted to prove otherwise, is the flag sustained to avoid implausible time stamps on the leaderboards?...curious as to the response...

 

2nd question...been meaning to ask...is it true that hiding one game's trophies can remove your entire profile from other trophy tracking sites?...and does this also apply to people who may have stumbled into a lobby with a hacker such as blops 2 or are they just whitelisted?...

Edited by ProfBambam55
2nd question...
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