Suggestion - White List for Trophies / Games?

[B1rvine]

The difference between a hacker autopopping trophies vs someone just giving you an item in coop is the former *can* create an impossible trophy list, which is provable.  The latter doesn't necessarily do that, and legit gamers playing game shouldn't be punished for playing the game as it can be played.

 

As far as how this is relevant to whitelisting: we know the games where people can be affected in this way, so only those games are being discussed.

 

Edited February 6, 2020 by B1rvine

[MMDE]

16 minutes ago, MMDE said:

While they aren't hacking the trophies themselves, someone did hack the trophies for them.

 

And just to add to this, the reason we're talking about whitelisting some few games are because we know there are so many people who never intended for people to hack their trophies. It was forced on them, and for some reason or another they ended up syncing the trophies. People are getting screwed over by some online bum who think he's so cool using a mod menu some other dude made and unlocking the trophies for everyone they meet online, and in the case of GTAV, there's no way back either. So what exactly would whitelisting the game do? Should we whitelist the games? Is there other games the same situation applies heavily to?

Edited July 26, 2017 by MMDE

[HailHale81]

12 minutes ago, B1rvine said:

The difference between a hacker autopopping trophies vs someone just giving you an item in coop is the former create *can* create an impossible trophy list, which is provable.  The latter doesn't necessarily do that, and legit gamers playing game shouldn't be punished for playing the game as it can be played.

 

As far as how this is relevant to whitelisting: we know the games where people can be affected in this way, so only those games are being discussed.

Well my point is why does it need to be discussed in the first place. If the moderators know the games that can affect people from mods and the rest of the game and profile looks legit they can move on and not flag anything and let the person be. If the rest of the game looks fishy and their profile has other fishy looking games then you would just flag/remove them as usual. I appreciate people trying hard to make a system better but man common sense would say work smarter not harder and people here are working harder for no reason. If you want a system for these people make it where they cant be flagged again for that game so the moderators don't see the same person over and over after they proven they were legit but had an unfortunate issue with a mod. That seems a million times better.

Edited July 26, 2017 by HailHale81

[starcrunch061]

1 hour ago, HailHale81 said:

What is the difference from a mod handing you a trophy you didn't earn or someone like you handing people stuff they didn't earn to pop stuff early?

 

Well, depending on the situation, it's the intent of the developer. As MMDE mentioned, Demon's Souls has a robust system in place for trading items, which was made even easier with later iterations of the game. While I personally don't like the system, and wish it were abandoned, it is clear that FROM wants to allow players to help other players in this way.

 

You may not see a difference, and that is your prerogative. But I see a major difference in using a hacked lobby to unlock trophies in a way not envisioned (or encouraged) by the developer, and using an in-game mechanic, available to everyone, to unlock trophies.

[MMDE]

Just now, HailHale81 said:

Well my point is why does it need to be discussed in the first place. If the moderators know the games that can affect people from mods and the rest of the game and profile looks legit they can move on and not flag anything and let the person be. If the rest of the game looks fishy and their profile has other fishy looking games then you would just flag/remove them as usual. I appreciate people trying hard to make a system better but man common sense would say work smarter not harder and people here are working harder for no reason. If you want a system for these people make it where they cant be flagged again so the moderators don't see the same person over and over after they proven they were legit but had an unfortunate issue with a mod. That seems a million times better.

 

I get where you're coming from, but this is just encouraging people to hack the trophies for these games. People should be encouraged not to do this, and because they are earned illegitimately, they really shouldn't count in on the game's stats, or their stats IMO. BO2 even got unobtainable trophies now that people still get every day. :\

[HailHale81]

7 minutes ago, MMDE said:

I get where you're coming from, but this is just encouraging people to hack the trophies for these games. People should be encouraged not to do this, and because they are earned illegitimately, they really shouldn't count in on the game's stats, or their stats IMO. BO2 even got unobtainable trophies now that people still get every day. :\

But wouldn't that just encourage people who are already hackers and most likely would be flagged/removed like I just said. I highly doubt a legit person is going to hack one or two games because now they can get away with it. And with Gta4 and Gta5 only a couple things are being hacked and you aren't even doing the hacking it could just happen to you. Again this system is pointless. Common sense and have a thing where the game can't be flagged anymore if you proved the person was legit. Everything else would be business as usual.

Edited July 26, 2017 by HailHale81

[B1rvine]

4 minutes ago, HailHale81 said:

Well my point is why does it need to be discussed in the first place. If the moderators know the games that can affect people from mods and the rest of the game and profile looks legit they can move on and not flag anything and let the person be. If the rest of the game looks fishy and their profile has other fishy looking games then you would just flag/remove them as usual. I appreciate people trying hard to make a system better but man common sense would say work smarter not harder and people here are working harder for no reason. If you want a system for these people make it where they cant be flagged again for that game so the moderators don't see the same person over and over after they proven they were legit but had an unfortunate issue with a mod. That seems a million times better.

 

I get where you're coming from too.  

 

Lets face it though.  Everyone has different opinions.  And common sense isn't really common these days.  It's not just moderators that can flag people, its any premium member.  

 

And how do you prove intent?  Even if you could prove they weren't trying to get trophies and got thrown with some hacker, doesn't mean they should still be on a leaderboard. Here's a hypothetical scenario for you.  There's a 100% legitimate gamer with 100 games and 100 plats on his profile.  He plays BO2 and goes to do the online first and a hacker pops every single trophy in his list within 1 minute.  Now he's the #1 fastest 100% person on the BO2 list.  How would the legit, now #2 player feel? With the current system without a whitelist, he can either remain as number 1 illegitimately, or be flagged and removed for something thats not his fault.  The whitelist would be fair to him, and the rest of the legit players in that game, hence why we need it. (imo)

[Dav9834]

12 minutes ago, HailHale81 said:

Well my point is why does it need to be discussed in the first place. If the moderators know the games that can affect people from mods and the rest of the game and profile looks legit they can move on and not flag anything and let the person be.

It's going to be automated(otherwise as I have said many times I won't support it). 

 

That's 1 difference. 

Now please stop trolling this thread. 

 

I asked nicely before, and you ignored my request.

Your opinion will be evaluated by prof when he gets on later, or another day. 

[HailHale81]

1 minute ago, B1rvine said:

And how do you prove intent?  Even if you could prove they weren't trying to get trophies and got thrown with some hacker, doesn't mean they should still be on a leaderboard. Here's a hypothetical scenario for you.  There's a 100% legitimate gamer with 100 games and 100 plats on his profile.  He plays BO2 and goes to do the online first and a hacker pops every single trophy in his list within 1 minute.  Now he's the #1 fastest 100% person on the BO2 list.  How would the legit, now #2 player feel? With the current system without a whitelist, he can either remain as number 1 illegitimately, or be flagged and removed for something thats not his fault.  The whitelist would be fair to him, and the rest of the legit players in that game, hence why we need it. (imo)

I totally get your point on that game and it's why I never brought it up because that is a whole nother animal haha. But another simple solution is if the person is legit on everything like you said then just remove him from the fastest achievers list. Simple.Everything would still count for him although maybe if he is legit he would hide it anyways if it regarded the whole game. I was more referring to games where like 2 or 3 trophies can be given to you. To be told in GTA 5 that you did every challenge in the main game and every collectible that it wouldn't count I would have some choice words for you haha

3 minutes ago, Dav9834 said:

Now please stop trolling this thread. 

 

I asked nicely before, and you ignored my request.

Your opinion will be evaluated by prof when he gets on later, or another day. 

Dude you're the only rude one here by claiming I'm trolling. We're having a discussion about the system and how to make it better or not needed at all. Issues are made better by the give and take of a conversation. Sorry if people are only supposed to say one thing and then never reply again lol. All of us are being civil except you I guess

[B1rvine]

7 minutes ago, HailHale81 said:

 

 

Yeah, I was kind of responding to both you and @mapachiniartaud in my original response, since she mentioned BO2.  But really, the same could apply in any game.  Right now 2-3 hacked trophies or an entire list really doesn't matter, its still a flagged game for them.  Your proposal to just remove him from the fastest achievers list (without leaving him flagged I assume) is a form of a whitelist in a way, if he didn't have to hide the game.  There's an actual debate on exactly how the whitelist would work, and my stance is similar to just be removed from the individual leaderboards, without their global rank being affected if they choose not to hide the game.  You may want to propose this if you're on the same page.

[HailHale81]

1 minute ago, B1rvine said:

here's an actual debate on exactly how the whitelist would work, and my stance is similar to just be removed from the individual leaderboards, without their global rank being affected if they choose not to hide the game.  You may want to propose this if you're on the same page.

I thought this was that page so I apologize. I wish @Dav9834 would of said that to begin with like gave me a link to it or something instead of giving me crap. Anyway sorry for posting this on here. I thought this was the whole discussion page on the idea. My bad. @Dav9834 should just copy/paste my points to that page as a gesture of good will ? haha

[Dav9834]

3 minutes ago, HailHale81 said:

I thought this was that page so I apologize. I wish @Dav9834 would of said that to begin with like gave me a link to it or something instead of giving me crap. Anyway sorry for posting this on here. I thought this was the whole discussion page on the idea. My bad. @Dav9834 should just copy/paste my points to that page as a gesture of good will  haha

My apologies I'm half awake if even that much. My only goal was to keep the thread clean

[ProfBambam55]

Haha, OK so a lot has been said here...I'm confused as $hit right now...

 

first off, @HailHale81, if you'd like to put together something related to flags or whitelisting or whatever with regards to borderlands or demon's souls or other games all the power to you...this thread is about hackers who have mods that auto-pop trophies that are pretty much undetectable/unavoidable by legit players that result in basically a set way of earning trophies illegitimately...trying to combine your ideas and logic with the proposal in this thread is too much work for me and I honestly have no motivation to do so...

 

it could also lead to the extreme, which I have no intention of discussing here, of where do we draw the line?...some people think boosting or being carried through trophies is also a form of cheating so your logic could be taken to the point of removing all games that have any sort of trophy that could be "boosted"...meaning most online trophies and any ps4 game since they have share play...again, let's discuss this elsewhere plz...

 

Next up, @ars your post has confused me a little...sorry, I'm not very intelligent...I know simplicity is key to any system but I have issues simplifying this one and still taking into account the arguments against the proposal...

 

The points I find difficult to cover are:

 

1 - detection...I think most people are in agreement that automation is important, myself included...so yes, we need to come up with a proper formula that leaves as little margin of error as possible...work for sly...we also need to confirm our list and agree upon cutoff dates if deemed necessary...

 

2 - how to go about removing the times from the leaderboards...hiding the whole list doesn't make much sense to me, nor does allowing someone to keep a platinum earned this way...so how do we hide it without the "why are my trophies hidden?" threads appearing every other day...my idea, is to label them with a link to this thread...why not just leave them and not have these stats appear on the leaderboards?..."why can't I flag this person?", "why does this person have a cheated platinum?" threads...which ties into avoiding this by creating...

 

awareness...perhaps you find prevention irrelevant but one thing I really dislike is people saying "you should've known this would happen and deleted user before syncing...blah, blah, blah...it's common knowledge"...I also think a lot of people use guides on this site or check out people's stats that have never used the forums so mentioning this in the guides and on people's trophy lists might be a good idea...the goal of this thread is to help legit gamers so wouldn't it be nice if one person who fully intended on earning the trophies in our list legit stumbled upon the info here before playing one of these games and was able to avoid having any trophies or stats on their list hidden?...my goal by having them labelled was to increase such a chance...it's not about telling people what or how to play it's about the possibility of helping people avoid hacked lobbies by making the info a little easier to find...coloured or not makes no difference to me hence was a suggestion in parentheses...

 

in terms of work for sly, he's either got to make a code to hide the games/trophies from appearing on the leaderboards but still show up on people's profiles or make one that labels these trophies a certain way which I thought would automatically take them off the boards since they would have no time stamp...either way it seems like a ton of work...

 

I know there's other stuff...I'll get back to this later when I have a chance...open to suggestions and critique as always but not very good at reading between the lines...I'll try to be specific when I'm asking about certain people's ideas...plz let me know if I seem to have missed the point on some things...

Edited July 26, 2017 by xL1ghT_By_D3s1gNx

[ProfBambam55]

On 23/07/2017 at 6:55 AM, xABathingApe said:

I have read a few comments about people saying how you cannot be able to tell if someone hacked or got their friend to hack their trophies and I haven't read all the way though to see if someone has brought this up and I apologise if someone has mentioned but what if every profile can get like a 3 strike policy with whitelisting, as in you get 3 games with trophies white listed and then your account gets a closer look at due to how rare it can be to get trophies hacked. As it has been mention, the amount of legitimate players outweighs the hackers so each profile gets 3 games whitelisted and then after that any other games that get flagged have to go to disputes as it highly unlikely to get so many trophies hacked. I also believe that if someone gets more than 5-6 trophies whitelisted in any game they should have to also some what prove that it was a mistake. Sorry if this doesn't fully make sense, I was just typing what was on the top of my head.

This is not a bad idea but it basically just resembles the system now in a sense without the manual flagging...what about the legit guy who just loves gta and cod and is incredibly unlucky or the classic compulsive liar?...since we can't prove intent the disputes have the potential to all look the same..."I swear I didn't do it"...it creates more work for the mods and if hackers tend to hack more than these games, won't the current 3 strike system suffice in detecting them?...the list here is tiny and exceptional...I think the current proposal is sufficient as is and adding a 3 strike limit is just adding another layer of complexity that probably just would be more work than reward...

6 hours ago, MMDE said:

So what exactly would whitelisting the game do? Should we whitelist the games? Is there other games the same situation applies heavily to?

Whitelisting removes the flag and dispute process, make these people able to finish off the game by being able to join boosting sessions (if the game is hidden they can not participate in them) and not force them to hide their legit trophies...i.e. use the site normally...no idea if we should...I think it's worth it and the poll suggests others do as well...other games?...no idea...I've looked into many others not on the list and hope people will speak up if they feel other games meet the criteria of being auto-popped by hackers...so far I haven't come across any but am willing to look into suggestions...

[thegirlruka]

2 hours ago, xL1ghT_By_D3s1gNx said:

1 - detection...I think most people are in agreement that automation is important, myself included...so yes, we need to come up with a proper formula that leaves as little margin of error as possible...work for sly...we also need to confirm our list and agree upon cutoff dates if deemed necessary...

In pseudocode for GTAV, it could be done similarly to this

IF timeDifference trophy37 - trophy36 =< 20 seconds THEN flag

IF timeDifference trophy36 - trophy35 =< 20 seconds THEN flag

 

Trophies 35 through 37 are the three trophies associated with rank. The times could be adjusted to whatever you think is impossible. I would think it would be easy enough to create the script (I think MMDE already has one written that he manually uses) and then scan every profile with the game with it. Any time the database's stored value for the total number of gamers with the higher ranked trophies (36 and 37) change, it could do a rescan of all profiles with the trophy. It could be tied in with when the rarity values for the trophy are automatically updated.

 

 

On a side note: I would prefer the whitelisted trophies either counted toward totals on the gamer's profile and the overall leaderboard or had  the entire game's trophies removed from that person's total. It might cause a few people to get their trophies hacked on purpose, but I don't like seeing inconsistencies in the numbers. Removing a few trophies while keeping the remaining trophies on the list creates an inconsistency that I don't like.

Edited July 26, 2017 by kuuhaku

[ProfBambam55]

5 hours ago, kuuhaku said:

On a side note: I would prefer the whitelisted trophies either counted toward totals on the gamer's profile and the overall leaderboard or had  the entire game's trophies removed from that person's total. It might cause a few people to get their trophies hacked on purpose, but I don't like seeing inconsistencies in the numbers. Removing a few trophies while keeping the remaining trophies on the list creates an inconsistency that I don't like.

I know this is an ugly solution but I have small gripes with the two above options in terms of logic...don't hide the game allowing the trophies and there is no incentive to not go out and hack the game...hide the whole list and it removes the potential to use the site normally by preventing the participation in gaming sessions in certain cases...I can't think of a way to cover both of these things without the potential creation of a bunch of "why...?" threads which will basically just lead back to this point of the discussion...

 

also, thanks for the input on how it could be detected...up to this point I've been convinced i was kind of just wasting my time with this whole idea since no one has commented on the tech aspect of automation...I don't know if I've stated it enough yet but am completely useless in this department...I feel like my proposition is kind of like asking if all cars could be manufactured to include in-dash coffee makers...like "dude, you're dreaming...it doesn't matter how many people vote for it"...

[MMDE]

Sly already have automated stuff to catch some types of cheating. An automatic system would require some query to be run against the database or something.  Depending on how complicated you want to get, you can detect a whole lot of stuff. It should be pretty damn easy to detect the unobtainable trophy in BO2 for example. You can also look for a specific amount of certain trophies for the game appearing too close together, but this is a much more complicated query. I at least would need to think for a good while to make some kind of decent SQL query for such a thing. It is of course possible if you scan through every single one and not do it anywhere near as efficiently as with a single query. Knowing the time between each trophy is already calculated and in order on each trophy list (though missing timestamps lists are funky), most of the job is already done there, but I doubt you'd want to hijack that service.  

Edited July 27, 2017 by MMDE

[ProfBambam55]

quick update: just got word that the likelihood of a white list being implemented as suggested in this thread is slim to none...i'm going to leave this idea open should it be worthy of consideration in the future...i'm also officially retiring my efforts on the subject...thanks to all...it's been a fun topic to brainstorm, research, and discuss...off to harass big motor companies in putting coffee makers into the dash of certain models...haha...cheers...

Edited July 28, 2017 by xL1ghT_By_D3s1gNx

[Otonio_Bruno]

26 minutes ago, xL1ghT_By_D3s1gNx said:

quick update: just got word that the likelihood of a white list being implemented as suggested in this thread is slim to none...i'm going to leave this idea open should it be worthy of consideration in the future...i'm also officially retiring my efforts on the subject...thanks to all...it's been a fun topic to brainstorm, research, and discuss...off to harass big motor companies in putting coffee makers into the dash of certain models...haha...cheers...

 

Thank you for your hard effort. Indeed there is no point in working and researching so much if there is no interest by site administration in implementing it. Sad that it won't be implemented for the time being, but at least it's better knowing that than working for nothing.

 

As for last phrase: Now that's a fight worth fighting for. Even better if it can also store cola sodas, coffee and cola moves the world!

[Dav9834]

37 minutes ago, xL1ghT_By_D3s1gNx said:

off to harass big motor companies in putting coffee makers into the dash of certain models...haha...cheers...

Well if they make a very good amount money(or increased brand monetary value for selling it later) like psnprofiles does on its members and content providers. And of course if people want that feature, they just may. 

 

Remember slim to none isn't nothing : ) 

 

Never, Never, Never Give Up -Churchill 

[ars]

On 7/26/2017 at 3:41 PM, MMDE said:

 

It's not the exact same thing. One is earned through hacking, the other is earned through using the in-game mechanics. It's like saying co-op in a game is cheating, because someone helps you. Then you compare this to someone just putting the trophies on your account. I'm not even against shareplay, because someone is actually earning the trophies.

 

I must disagree with this. Someone putting trophies on your account is someone either editing your PSN online database directly, or having given access to your account editing your database on their CFW'd system directly. Games like RDR, Borderlands and Dead Island have save game editors available and the speedruns are regular to have taken advantage of a hacked environment. You don't have to edit your own save, you gain the viral effect of someone else having edited theirs and ending up with the output. Exploiting modifications on these games is rather always deliberate, but proving a hack happened on the gamer's part is impossible.

 

Compare that to the games on topic here, mainly GTA ond COD. You again enter a hacked environment and things start popping immediately, but it's very easy to spot it's not a save import because unlike an imported save where "everything" would pop, you keep popping seemingly random things out of order. Abusing modified environments on these games is not always deliberate, rather the opposite seems to be the case.

 

I find this whole nitpick around what was "earned illegitimately or legitimately" ridiculous. A program doesn't care. There is no difference between hacked instant XP on GTA compared to hacked 6000% XP boost on RDR. That's how your game environment works now and no matter how you might feel about it, how the game environment functions is a proven fact and there's nothing you can do about it except not play the game. Those who did, only entered the multiplayer and played the game normally while the program functions as-is.

 

I don't care if you censor every game on earth off the leaderboards that suffers from a situation like this, or flag everything possible for modding. RDR, BL, DI, GTA, COD, go ahead and start flagging me and everyone else. But only if you give standard treatment across the board on all of the titles. Either you accept all of the modified environments are illegitimate, or none of them are because the gamer didn't modify it. Anything else is just sour talk and semantics on how might this ambiguous term "illegitimate" be defined this week over the next.

 

Edit: just leaving this here as if BamBam is correct the preferential treatment over titles on PSNP stands.

 

Edit2: @xL1ghT_By_D3s1gNx yeah cutoff dates and automation is the key, but it's not like Sly wouldn't have easily modifiable scripts for that already. Considering pretty much everything our small community does online is "cheating" from the developers' or actual, legit gamers' point of view, I think what I stated to MMDE above stands for censoring the leaderboards. Keep them all or pull them all. "Legitimacy" of these is semantics on leaderboards where every second online trophy is de facto not legitimate for fixing the match, entering a modified environment, in-game exploits since patched, etc etc etc.

Edited July 29, 2017 by ars

[Darkette]

On 28 July 2017 at 5:04 PM, xL1ghT_By_D3s1gNx said:

quick update: just got word that the likelihood of a white list being implemented as suggested in this thread is slim to none...i'm going to leave this idea open should it be worthy of consideration in the future...i'm also officially retiring my efforts on the subject...thanks to all...it's been a fun topic to brainstorm, research, and discuss...off to harass big motor companies in putting coffee makers into the dash of certain models...haha...cheers...

 

Wow that sucks ._.

 

Thank you for putting in such hard work in all this. Your dedication is admirable.

[ProfBambam55]

5 minutes ago, DarkSamuraii- said:

 

Wow that sucks ._.

It is what it is is...it does suck from the perspective of people who have this happen to them...my inspiration for the thread came primarily from disputes and I thought it was worth looking into...then I stumbled upon this vid (read the description):

it made me realize a few things...I imagined this guy's situation here on psnp...someone could find this vid, search and update his id on the homepage thereby adding him to the site stats, and flag him...what would his dispute look like with the current system?..."sorry, implausible time stamps...hide the game"...seemed a bit ridiculous...I don't like to do anything half-assed in life so was ready to see the idea through when I hit "submit" after writing the op...I think it's been a great topic to discuss and have learned a lot of interesting stuff so all is not lost...I hope others can say the same or have at least considered what this thread involves if they hadn't already...

[Rick_Sanchez]

On 7/28/2017 at 11:04 AM, ProfBambam55 said:

quick update: just got word that the likelihood of a white list being implemented as suggested in this thread is slim to none...i'm going to leave this idea open should it be worthy of consideration in the future...i'm also officially retiring my efforts on the subject...thanks to all...it's been a fun topic to brainstorm, research, and discuss...off to harass big motor companies in putting coffee makers into the dash of certain models...haha...cheers...

What if sometime in the future when PS4 CFW eventually becomes possible and trophy hackers pop other people's trophies? Since the PS4 auto syncs we'd literally would be screwed at no fault of our own. Would then a white list be something that has to be implemented?

[ProfBambam55]

2 hours ago, Rick_Sanchez said:

What if sometime in the future when PS4 CFW eventually becomes possible and trophy hackers pop other people's trophies? Since the PS4 auto syncs we'd literally would be screwed at no fault of our own. Would then a white list be something that has to be implemented?

there are a lot of potential "what ifs" that may come up over time...we'll have to wait and see...I don't think the white list proposal here has been turned down only because people can potentially remove these trophies on ps3 so it would be kind of safe to assume that it would also not be considered for ps4...people are already getting screwed by no fault of their own as far as I'm concerned so here's to hoping hackers are prevented from making these kinds of menus that can auto-pop other peoples' trophies from now on...

Edited August 6, 2017 by ProfBambam55