Dav9834 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 12 hours ago, BlindMango said: Then someone like MMDE would just go through and push the whitelist option for anyone that was flagged. Coding 101, be lazy. That's like automation in plain site to any other programmer. Nobody who knows how to program is going to have someone sit there pressing a button, unless they don't care much. It's not efficient. But ya everything you said, but Slys got to program the easy stuff. The flagging issues start to dissappear fast. I gave up reporting posts in the disputes section. Never got extremely better. Better definitely! But not for what it was supposed to be from the start. Sad, because it's a pita for both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ars Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 12 hours ago, madbuk said: But again, how do you know that they didn't intend for it to happen? You don't. This'd just be giving cheaters a free 100% until it gets caught and invalidated. And once it's invalidated? Well, it's not like they get a strike on their account, so it's all good! This white list will make it so that you have absolutely no reason to play these games legit anymore. You don't know whether "glitches" were intended to happen. By all means and purposes of software programming if it can happen in the game, then it is possible within the constraints of the game. End of story. This talk isn't about catching hackers as you have zero chance to do so on a constantly modified online game. The talk is about the futility to pretend you'd have some sort of a "clean" leaderboard for a piece of software, that isn't a controlled environment to begin with. I know for a fact the FIFA 2011 run produced a little over a thousand hacked trophies from the PSNP database, and that game had an unprotected save for which copying instructions were widely published in major gaming media outlets. The game sold over five million copies. So 0,02% - THAT is the ballpark on the likelihood of a gamer purposely hacking on any given game. We're talking about punishing millions of people here so the 0,02% wouldn't "get a free pass" on a leaderboard that was never a valid one. That's not going to stop people playing a hugely popular game like GTA V, but it will teach great many of them what a toxic site PSNP is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dav9834 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Bloodytears1666 said: The only possible way this system will win, if one of those 0.1 percent will be trustful member experienced, before that this all theoretical and placed against 10000k opposite proofs. I keep seeing .1% being thrown around. Where is this coming from? I can guarantee there are more legitimate players than hackers. Why don't they dispute? Maybe they have no idea. Maybe they know they have no proof. Maybe like most in the gaming community they just want to play a game. Lots of maybes. And here we are sitting on our high thrones saying that ain't good enough. You're off your personal site stats because you played a couple Call of Dutys and other games because you spent money to have fun. There's way more than 3 games out there, and they all mostly cater to the same audience. And that's where the 3 strike rule fails, and the whitelisting succeeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted October 23, 2017 Author Share Posted October 23, 2017 2 hours ago, Dav9834 said: I keep seeing .1% being thrown around. Where is this coming from? Lots of maybes. I used the 0.1% as a sort of "if it helps one person, it's worth it" kind of number...it has no real value... and yes, lots of maybes... another random anecdote: I was playing darksiders this morning before heading off to work...i've browsed the guide and am aware of the 4 missables and that a thorough investigation of areas is needed for collectibles but aside from that am playing pretty blindly...while fighting a group of enemies a trophy dinged...had no idea what it was for...quickly checked my list...kill 666 demons...had I been in multiplayer I should've gone offline, deleted my user, backed up my data, checked my trophy list on a tracking site, and then recreated the former and continued playing, right?...at which point it would ding again and I might be attentive enough to catch the name of it and then check a trophy guide to make sure it was legit...if not legit, I'm in the clear...with no mention of being able to get hacked trophies in any of the guides for the games on the list, this is what we are expecting people to do...seems rather silly in a sense... worse yet is the famous rdr guide which actually encourages people to use hacked lobbies...i think if we take a stance of labelling people as cheaters who have implausible timestamps then we also need to be consistent with regards to cheating within the site...add to this no warning in the guides and it becomes kind of wondrous as to why we don't have a whitelist...are we encouraging or discouraging hackers here?..."it's your fault...you should've known not to play online in public lobbies with this game...the flag sticks"...insult to injury...haha... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dav9834 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 19 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said: I used the 0.1% as a sort of "if it helps one person, it's worth it" kind of number...it has no real value... and yes, lots of maybes... another random anecdote: I was playing darksiders this morning before heading off to work...i've browsed the guide and am aware of the 4 missables and that a thorough investigation of areas is needed for collectibles but aside from that am playing pretty blindly...while fighting a group of enemies a trophy dinged...had no idea what it was for...quickly checked my list...kill 666 demons...had I been in multiplayer I should've gone offline, deleted my user, backed up my data, checked my trophy list on a tracking site, and then recreated the former and continued playing, right?...at which point it would ding again and I might be attentive enough to catch the name of it and then check a trophy guide to make sure it was legit...if not legit, I'm in the clear...with no mention of being able to get hacked trophies in any of the guides for the games on the list, this is what we are expecting people to do...seems rather silly in a sense... worse yet is the famous rdr guide which actually encourages people to use hacked lobbies...i think if we take a stance of labelling people as cheaters who have implausible timestamps then we also need to be consistent with regards to cheating within the site...add to this no warning in the guides and it becomes kind of wondrous as to why we don't have a whitelist...are we encouraging or discouraging hackers here?..."it's your fault...you should've known not to play online in public lobbies with this game...the flag sticks"...insult to injury...haha... The guide still hasn't been updated??? Even if the guide maker isn't getting the messages, sly can go in and warn rather than encourage in the guide about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted October 23, 2017 Author Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) You have this... https://psnprofiles.com/guide/1187-call-of-duty-world-at-war-trophy-guide And then this... Did I just overlook the warning?... welcome to psnp...check out the neat "cheaters removed" stat on the leaderboards page...crazy how it just went up one...haha...let's hope Markus still loves us...his first post is in the dispute thread...i can't help but feel sorry for the guy if the rest of his profile is clean.. Edited October 23, 2017 by ProfBambam55 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlindMango Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 5 hours ago, Dav9834 said: Coding 101, be lazy. That's like automation in plain site to any other programmer. Nobody who knows how to program is going to have someone sit there pressing a button, unless they don't care much. It's not efficient. But ya everything you said, but Slys got to program the easy stuff. The flagging issues start to dissappear fast. I gave up reporting posts in the disputes section. Never got extremely better. Better definitely! But not for what it was supposed to be from the start. Sad, because it's a pita for both sides. Hey, whatever makes this a thing Plus we probably need to have a human oversee this kind of thing anyway since it’s pretty specific at times 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cassylvania Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 18 hours ago, madbuk said: But they aren't glitches. Glitches are an error in the games code. When you exploit a glitch in a game, you're working within the boundaries the game itself has set. Mods change those boundaries. You have no way of proving that someone who "accidentally" entered a modded lobby wasn't sat there for hours trying to find one. It's nothing like using a glitch. I agree, to a point. You have no way of knowing if the player entered the modded lobby on purpose or accident. In that case, the player should be presumed innocent. Yes, it means some cheaters will get away with some illicit trophies on a small handful of games (like, seriously, four games), but I -- and the majority of the community, according to the poll -- would rather see that than honest players getting penalized. That's criminally wrong. Honestly, I'm flabbergasted that this is even still a debate. No person should be punished for something that cannot be proven intentional or malicious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted October 23, 2017 Author Share Posted October 23, 2017 (edited) 50 minutes ago, BlindMango said: we probably need to have a human oversee this kind of thing anyway since it’s pretty specific at times I'm like the busiest person I know but, f**k it, I don't give a $hit about the leaderboards, have always been a legit gamer, and know how these lists should look...i'll put my money where my mouth is and volunteer to do it manually if it makes this idea a reality...would be an honour if the majority thought it would improve the community...only catch is I might be a bit slow; not mentally (see first sentence...read between lines)... Edited October 23, 2017 by ProfBambam55 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeepEyes7 Posted October 23, 2017 Share Posted October 23, 2017 I'm totally against hacking trophies but I think that "some" games should be whitelisted because sh*t happens, and even when you're trying to get a trophy the legal way then a hacker can f*ck you up and you can't do anything... The community knows which games suffer of this the most so just whitelist that ones, not every game where "this" can happen, some people will get out with hacking but well, it's a little price for all the rightful gamers wrongfully called cheaters... I know that you can just hide the game, but what happen when you get hacked trophies in more than two games (people that love CoD and GTA V can be wronged more than two times), and hiding games is horrible for some people (like me), I prefer to be out of the LB before hiding trophies u_u... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergen Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) . Edited May 26, 2020 by Sergen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dav9834 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Sergen said: Doing that isn't going to remove evidence of it having been in the guide before, the web page has been archived plenty of times and the information has been in the guide for over 3 years proven by this specific web archive of the trophy guide on June 23rd, 2014: https://web.archive.org/web/20140623234311/https://psnprofiles.com/guide/768-red-dead-redemption-trophy-guide and the thread that is linked in the guide has been on this website for nearly 4 years. Thousands of people would have used the level 50 exploit by now. Once again, I have to say that if people randomly start getting flagged for information that was once allowed in a trophy guide on this website, then you could tell people to stop using guides on this website because information could eventually lead to you getting flagged for simply looking for help with the game. The information was also allowed to be posted on playstationtrophies.org: https://www.playstationtrophies.org/forum/red-dead-redemption/222275-unlimited-xp-glitch-rdr-online-glitch-back-may-12th-2015-a.html PSNProfiles has no authority over the threads there. If people start getting flagged, you might as well tell people to never research any solutions for earning trophies quicker. Ya but if the house is burning, don't stop putting the fire out because a few were lost. It's preventative for the future, and it just seems silly to keep it there at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergen Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) 30 minutes ago, Dav9834 said: Ya but if the house is burning, don't stop putting the fire out because a few were lost. It's preventative for the future, and it just seems silly to keep it there at this point. Trophy guides are there to help people get trophies done in the fastest way possible and unlike modded lobbies and so on, this is a glitch that affects the entire online community. I even saw posts of people saying they accidentally activated the glitch by joining public lobbies and doing gang hideouts. Unlike modded lobbies that only affect a few game lobbies and require a hacker to be there to initiate auto popping, the level glitch on red dead redemption can be done even if you're the only person in an empty room who has never manipulated the game whatsoever. Edited October 25, 2017 by Sergen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dav9834 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 27 minutes ago, Sergen said: Trophy guides are there to help people get trophies done in the fastest way possible and unlike modded lobbies and so on, this is a glitch that affects the entire online community. I even saw posts of people saying they accidentally activated the glitch by joining public lobbies and doing gang hideouts. Unlike modded lobbies that only affect a few game lobbies and require a hacker to be there to initiate auto popping, the level glitch on red dead redemption can be done even if you're the only person in an empty room who has never manipulated the game whatsoever. Do people get flagged because of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sergen Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, Dav9834 said: Do people get flagged because of this? No, one of my friends got flagged for it in the past and he messaged grimydawg and it got unflagged almost immediately. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMDE Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 On 10/23/2017 at 0:47 PM, Dav9834 said: Coding 101, be lazy. That's like automation in plain site to any other programmer. Nobody who knows how to program is going to have someone sit there pressing a button, unless they don't care much. It's not efficient. But ya everything you said, but Slys got to program the easy stuff. The flagging issues start to dissappear fast. I gave up reporting posts in the disputes section. Never got extremely better. Better definitely! But not for what it was supposed to be from the start. Sad, because it's a pita for both sides. I think the reason the whitelisting hasn't been implemented yet is because of performance reasons. My thoughts is that something might require a bit of redesign or some clever thinking. If it was easy, Sly would have fixed it already. As for automation, I did talk to him about something related to that topic, basically a more advanced auto-reporting system, but it really comes down to the performance cost. This system would make the reports automatically, and they would just need to be approved. As I said in another thread, I think the most likely implementation of whitelisting would just be that the games don't count towards the total flag count, so you wouldn't end up being off the leaderboards permanently because of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share Posted October 25, 2017 (edited) 43 minutes ago, Dav9834 said: Do people get flagged because of this? No... And my point with the guides and with reference to many disputes is about 2 things: people who play legit who use the site for leaderboards and guides who likely don't use the forums for whatever reason...i.e. ~3 000 000 tracked and only 300 000 members (estimation; no idea of actual stats...how many times have we seen a dispute yield someone's first post?)...i mean, why would they be searching for "hacked trophies" anyways if they're legit?...i'm talking about having warnings in the guides for the games on our potential white list here not rdr...how else are people supposed to know 1- which games/trophies are affected and 2- how to prevent hacked trophies from sticking to their profile?... my second point is with regards to consistency...here we are diligently removing these types of trophies (entire lists to be accurate) proudly adding a +1 to the "cheaters removed" stat at the top of the leaderboard for each failed dispute because they're hacked or whatever but yet have a guide promoting using hacked lobbies...because it's 4 years old it's ok?...not to compare apples and oranges here but many, and fifa 09 comes to mind, cheated long before this site even existed possibly knowingly or not but were remorselessly flagged and removed...some are even huge contributors to this community...this is a private website so consistency is not mandatory but it just strikes me as kind of odd...the worst thing about rdr is that the servers are actually still up and running so hacking is technically not the only way to earn any of the trophies even now... the fact that we have a dispute system is great and shows a willingness to give people a chance to explain themselves but I think a clear stance and course of action with regards to cheating would also be ideal...in other words not have a conflict like the rdr guide or a case by case situation for the implausible times of the trophies in our list here...i did the trophies 100% legit on rdr...if I apply the logic of clean leaderboards (and I really don't care, just stating), it really doesn't make sense to compare me to all of the "cheaters" who took advantage of the hacked lobbies over the last four years since "we'll never know if they intended to cheat or not" whether the guide be promoting it or not...does it kind of make sense where I'm coming from when you take our current situation into perspective?... Edited October 25, 2017 by ProfBambam55 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MMDE Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 On 10/23/2017 at 0:02 AM, BlindMango said: Still hoping to see this to be a thing! I think the easiest thing for Sly to do would be to add a new option for these handful of games on the backend of the site. Site staff has the option to mark a game Cheat or Legit essentially, all he'd need to do is add a third option for this handful of games: 'whitelist'. Whitelist would remove them from that games boards, but not mark them as a cheater, and they wouldn't have to hide them. Then someone like MMDE would just go through and push the whitelist option for anyone that was flagged which appears to have joined a hacked lobby in the past. Easy and I hope we see it soon, situations in this game are a constant hurdle for the flagging and dispute system and hopefully it gets added! A whitelist button would be nice as well, but I think it should take the game's trophies away from all your stats as well, but it would be kinda confusing for people, and it'd definitely be more complicated to do and require more resources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ars Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Sergen said: Trophy guides are there to help people get trophies done in the fastest way possible and unlike modded lobbies and so on, this is a glitch that affects the entire online community. It's not a glitch, it's a a CFW mod called the "ride-able zombie mod". It spreads virally through the public servers through an exploitable program bug. Or "glitch" if you prefer semantics. There is no real difference between "glitches" and mods, because mods always exploit "glitches" to be applicable. In any case this makes RDR exactly the same thing we're talking about on this thread - modded lobbies. Yet RDR trophies are magically "possible" while GTA trophies are magically "impossible". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dav9834 Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Sergen said: No, one of my friends got flagged for it in the past and he messaged grimydawg and it got unflagged almost immediately. Ah ok, misunderstanding, sorry! 2 hours ago, MMDE said: I think the reason the whitelisting hasn't been implemented yet is because of performance reasons. My thoughts is that something might require a bit of redesign or some clever thinking. If it was easy, Sly would have fixed it already. As for automation, I did talk to him about something related to that topic, basically a more advanced auto-reporting system, but it really comes down to the performance cost. This system would make the reports automatically, and they would just need to be approved. As I said in another thread, I think the most likely implementation of whitelisting would just be that the games don't count towards the total flag count, so you wouldn't end up being off the leaderboards permanently because of it. I like the way you think, somethings going to break the back. I'm going to take an educated guess and say it'll be those like you and grimy who have to go through the flags just not interested in doing it anymore. Years ago I've worked with my ex-brother in law in web business. And we were doing a lot of minor complex work, I would tell him every time I see him, ya know this can be fully automated. After a few weeks with a programmer he hired it was done(there was other stuff that needed to be done too, servers etc. ). It saved a lot of money, and a lot of time. Also by lazy It's a saying that they'd rather code something than to do it manually(which is a good thing) Of course he's not the one doing it so ya I guess it doesn't quite apply. 2 hours ago, ProfBambam55 said: No... And my point with the guides and with reference to many disputes is about 2 things: people who play legit who use the site for leaderboards and guides who likely don't use the forums for whatever reason...i.e. ~3 000 000 tracked and only 300 000 members (estimation; no idea of actual stats...how many times have we seen a dispute yield someone's first post?)...i mean, why would they be searching for "hacked trophies" anyways if they're legit?...i'm talking about having warnings in the guides for the games on our potential white list here not rdr...how else are people supposed to know 1- which games/trophies are affected and 2- how to prevent hacked trophies from sticking to their profile?... my second point is with regards to consistency...here we are diligently removing these types of trophies (entire lists to be accurate) proudly adding a +1 to the "cheaters removed" stat at the top of the leaderboard for each failed dispute because they're hacked or whatever but yet have a guide promoting using hacked lobbies...because it's 4 years old it's ok?...not to compare apples and oranges here but many, and fifa 09 comes to mind, cheated long before this site even existed possibly knowingly or not but were remorselessly flagged and removed...some are even huge contributors to this community...this is a private website so consistency is not mandatory but it just strikes me as kind of odd...the worst thing about rdr is that the servers are actually still up and running so hacking is technically not the only way to earn any of the trophies even now... the fact that we have a dispute system is great and shows a willingness to give people a chance to explain themselves but I think a clear stance and course of action with regards to cheating would also be ideal...in other words not have a conflict like the rdr guide or a case by case situation for the implausible times of the trophies in our list here...i did the trophies 100% legit on rdr...if I apply the logic of clean leaderboards (and I really don't care, just stating), it really doesn't make sense to compare me to all of the "cheaters" who took advantage of the hacked lobbies over the last four years since "we'll never know if they intended to cheat or not" whether the guide be promoting it or not...does it kind of make sense where I'm coming from when you take our current situation into perspective?... Misunderstanding! My apologies! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sepheroithisgod Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 I agree with whitelisting. I see the potential negatives, but honestly, it is not an innocent players fault at all. I've always supported, and still do, a true Trophy deletion system after they introduced the 0% delete system. If this was possible you could simply make the "victim" delete the game completely. I'm not a fan of the hidden system but to each their own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DividedByMankind Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I am totally against whitelisting. It will just give a free pass to these cheaters, that cant get their trophies legit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProfBambam55 Posted November 2, 2017 Author Share Posted November 2, 2017 3 hours ago, Chris Hansen said: I am totally against whitelisting. It will just give a free pass to these cheaters, that cant get their trophies legit. just curious here, "free pass" to what?...you do realize it's 4 games we're talking about and that whitelisting still puts them off the leaderboards, yes?...and just in case the reply is something about the floodgates opening I'll ask : do you really think that there are a bunch of cheaters out there just waiting to hack these games but don't only because they'll get a flag here on psnp?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DividedByMankind Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 1 minute ago, ProfBambam55 said: just curious here, "free pass" to what?...you do realize it's 4 games we're talking about and that whitelisting still puts them off the leaderboards, yes?...and just in case the reply is something about the floodgates opening I'll ask : do you really think that there are a bunch of cheaters out there just waiting to hack these games but don't only because they'll get a flag here on psnp?... Free pass for savefile usage, CFW and cheats.. earning the trophies illegitmate and so on. Well be as curious as you want. This is my opinion and i am totally eligable to have it. So i am totally against it. Does not matter if it is 1 game or 10. Trophy is earned illegitmate anyways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ars Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 6 hours ago, Chris Hansen said: Free pass for savefile usage, CFW and cheats.. earning the trophies illegitmate and so on. Well be as curious as you want. This is my opinion and i am totally eligable to have it. So i am totally against it. Does not matter if it is 1 game or 10. Trophy is earned illegitmate anyways. On 10/23/2017 at 1:50 PM, ars said: I know for a fact the FIFA 2011 run produced a little over a thousand hacked trophies from the PSNP database, and that game had an unprotected save for which copying instructions were widely published in major gaming media outlets. The game sold over five million copies. So 0,02% - THAT is the ballpark on the likelihood of a gamer purposely hacking on any given game. We're talking about punishing millions of people here so the 0,02% wouldn't "get a free pass" on a leaderboard that was never a valid one. That's not going to stop people playing a hugely popular game like GTA V, but it will teach great many of them what a toxic site PSNP is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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