Suggestion - White List for Trophies / Games?

[madbuk]

1 minute ago, ProfBambam55 said:

No legit gamers stats will remain intact...the white list is only for implausible time stamps, not for every gamer...think of it as an alternative to the dispute process if you wish...

So, as has been said, there's absolutely no reason not to hack it because if you're caught there is 0 punishment or consequence, and then it'll eventually lead to the domino effect mentioned above and make PSNP nothing but a joke.

What a ridiculous idea.

[Mrhemptastic]

The games shouldn't count towards a flag. But they should also be hidden simple as that.

tbh

[ProfBambam55]

I don't understand...what domino effect?...and why would the site be a joke?...the "punishment", would be not having the implausible time stamps on the leaderboards...the exact same thing as what I thought was the goal of the current flag system...time and time again people have said "we believe you're probably not a hacker we just don't want the times on the leaderboards"...they don't say "we just want you to have a strike in case you are a hacker"...I thought the times stamps were the important part, not the strike so thought a white list would be good for games like this...perhaps I was wrong...

 

and why is the idea ridiculous?...anything can be seen as ridiculous if you extrapolate to make it into something it is not...

[Dav9834]

4 minutes ago, madbuk said:

So, as has been said, there's absolutely no reason not to hack it because if you're caught there is 0 punishment or consequence, and then it'll eventually lead to the domino effect mentioned above and make PSNP nothing but a joke.

What a ridiculous idea.

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. 

@madbuk let's not call it ridiculous. 

 

As been said before it would not show on the leaderboards, or as a platinum on your profile on psnprofiles.com. 

What you would get by hacking is being able to see the platinum on ps3/ps4/etc but not psnprofiles.com. 

This can be automated. 

 

This in its form as stated would not affect psnprofiles.com reputation. 

 

Is this the most efficient way of automation is my question. 

[killer91ITA]

It's not completely a bad idea, but in this case hacker can do everithing without problem so it's bit dangerous make a decision like this 

[madbuk]

16 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

I don't understand...what domino effect?...and why would the site be a joke?...the "punishment", would be not having the implausible time stamps on the leaderboards...the exact same thing as what I thought was the goal of the current flag system...time and time again people have said "we believe you're probably not a hacker we just don't want the times on the leaderboards"...they don't say "we just want you to have a strike in case you are a hacker"...I thought the times stamps were the important part, not the strike so thought a white list would be good for games like this...perhaps I was wrong...

 

and why is the idea ridiculous?...anything can be seen as ridiculous if you extrapolate to make it into something it is not...

 

13 minutes ago, Dav9834 said:

Let's not get ahead of ourselves. 

@madbuk let's not call it ridiculous. 

 

As been said before it would not show on the leaderboards, or as a platinum on your profile on psnprofiles.com. 

What you would get by hacking is being able to see the platinum on ps3/ps4/etc but not psnprofiles.com. 

This can be automated. 

 

This in its form as stated would not affect psnprofiles.com reputation. 

 

Is this the most efficient way of automation is my question. 

But this already happens, Bambam's suggestion does nothing but ensure hackers get away without a strike. And then you begin questioning what other games should be allowed without strikes. And then that leads to strikes being removed entirely. And then PSNP becomes a free-for-all hacking fest to see who can get away with the most hacks. Get caught? Hide it and continue on.

 

We already have a 3 strike rule for situations where you enter a lobby and someone hacks it for you.

It is possible to delete cheated trophies

 

There is absolutely 0 reason or sense behind letting hackers get away with hacking.

[Dav9834]

1 minute ago, madbuk said:

 

But this already happens, Bambam's suggestion does nothing but ensure hackers get away without a strike. And then you begin questioning what other games should be allowed without strikes. And then that leads to strikes being removed entirely. And then PSNP becomes a free-for-all hacking fest to see who can get away with the most hacks. Get caught? Hide it and continue on.

 

We already have a 3 strike rule for situations where you enter a lobby and someone hacks it for you.

It is possible to delete cheated trophies

 

There is absolutely 0 reason or sense behind letting hackers get away with hacking.

I don't think you understand the way it could be implemented, and that's why you think it would become a hack fest. 

 

We're not looking to undercover all hackers on psnprofiles with this. Only lighten the load on @grimydawg and the community. 

 

 

[ars]

It's amazing to me people keep suggesting this would somehow give a free pass to hacking. First of all this matter concerns third party hacking which the user can do nothing about, because it's the game that pops the trophies without your consent or action. Second of all, hackers who know their stuff already have a free pass to hack and create legitimate looking timestamps. Only script kiddies who fail at hacking are the people who get flagged.

 

Finally, whether it does or doesn't is irrelevant, because you can't dictate how other people play.  What you can do is let people play what they want, while you edit the leaderboards until they're seemingly "clean". Whitelist does exactly that. The rest is a bunch of guys wanting to have an excuse to label people and it doesn't fly well with me.

Edited June 6, 2017 by ars

[ProfBambam55]

Again, I thought the goal of flags was to remove implausible times from the leaderboards...grimy has said on multiple occasions that the strikes are for games that have save files that people used long ago like fuel/socom/fifa,etc...I'm starting to wonder what is true and what isn't with regards to the flag system...

 

why would we question other games?...again, extrapolation...I'm only suggesting it for a list of trophies that has gamers playing as developers intended and had trophies ding as a result of being in the wrong place at the wring time...yes, the strikes would be removed for the tiny % of trophies that I'm suggesting, legit or not...I can live with that as I would prefer to side with legit gamers on this one...again, I'm convinced they're a majority with these types of trophies as I've rarely seen a lobby with 5 hackers and one legit gamer...it's always the other way around...my experiences are only limited to gta iv, v, and rdr though...perhaps on other games the opposite is true...

[Avatar_Of_Battle]

7 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

 

 

So basically this, and by white listing games ahead of time we will be making the disputes for Player's C and D a lot shorter?

 

Player A - Legit player. Stats remain. (duh)
Player B - Proven filthy hacker. Removed. Includes people saying that a friend did it without them knowing...they just aren't as filthy.  
Player C - Says they entered a hacked lobby unknowingly. Telling the truth but unfortunately with/without proof it's a tough sell because who the hell knows. The game will be white listed for him so his stats no longer count, but there are no strikes against him and he remains on the leaderboard without the Blue H. 
Player D - Says they entered a hacked lobby unknowingly. Lying, but game is still white listed and their stats no longer count. No Blue H and no strike, but chances are they will get caught in other confirmed cases and eventually removed. Even if just the one time they did hack it wouldn't matter since they wouldn't be banned from the leaderboards anyways. Only time these guys should have a white listed game actually flagged is if evidence is found like posts confirming they used a downloaded save or the WBM found altered timestamps...in which case they kinda fall into Player B anyways. 

 

So players B, C, and D will have no stats in the games, but players C and D won't get strikes. This way player C gets to remain the legit player they are and D will likely be removed soon anyways. 

 

It's literally what we have now with the same 3 strike feature that will remove players B and D. It just gives players like C a chance to be a legit part of the board without having to hide anything. Seems like a simple idea that really shouldn't be ruffling so many feathers lol. In games where someone else can't obviously hack your trophies it won't be a problem for example Kingdom Hearts vs World at War.  This way, the leaderboards can be "cleaned up" in a way that allows legit players that were unfortunate to remain, and still get rid of the cheaters.

 

This took so long to type out...thank god for copy/paste lol.

[madbuk]

Just now, ars said:

It's amazing to me people keep suggesting this would somehow give a free pass to hacking. First of all this matter concerns third party hacking which the user can do nothing about, because it's the game that pops the trophies without your consent or action. Second of all, hackers who know their stuff already have a free pass to hack and create legitimate looking timestamps. Only script kiddies who fail at hacking are the people who get flagged.

 

Finally, whether it does or doesn't irrelevant if it does because you can't dictate how other people play.  What you can do is let people play what they want, while you edit the leaderboards until they're seemingly "clean". Whitelist does exactly that. The rest is a bunch of guys wanting to have an excuse to label people and it doesn't fly well with me.

You have no way to determine someone innocent to someone who went out of his way to meet up with a friend who then hacks their trophies. They can just turn around and say "I've never met this guy before!!!" even though they're friends and arranged beforehand to meet up and hack trophies.

[Yuichiro-Akuhei]

The idea is never wrong. But at the same time, hackers can easily get away with it. And an exception in my eyes is a bad idea for these games. I will just say to bad (if it's unobtainable). And you can just remove hacked trophies. As long as you do not sync them right? I'm pretty sure if somebody gets in a hacked lobby and trophies are starting to pop they will sink right away! 

[ProfBambam55]

5 minutes ago, Avatar_Of_Battle said:

 

So basically this, and by white listing games ahead of time we will be making the disputes for Player's C and D a lot shorter?

 

Player A - Legit player. Stats remain. (duh)
Player B - Proven filthy hacker. Removed. Includes people saying that a friend did it without them knowing...they just aren't as filthy.  
Player C - Says they entered a hacked lobby unknowingly. Telling the truth but unfortunately with/without proof it's a tough sell because who the hell knows. The game will be white listed for him so his stats no longer count, but there are no strikes against him and he remains on the leaderboard without the Blue H. 
Player D - Says they entered a hacked lobby unknowingly. Lying, but game is still white listed and their stats no longer count. No Blue H and no strike, but chances are they will get caught in other confirmed cases and eventually removed. Even if just the one time they did hack it wouldn't matter since they wouldn't be banned from the leaderboards anyways. Only time these guys should have a white listed game actually flagged is if evidence is found like posts confirming they used a downloaded save or the WBM found altered timestamps...in which case they kinda fall into Player B anyways. 

 

So players B, C, and D will have no stats in the games, but players C and D won't get strikes. This way player C gets to remain the legit player they are and D will likely be removed soon anyways. 

 

It's literally what we have now with the same 3 strike feature that will remove players B and D. It just gives players like C a chance to be a legit part of the board without having to hide anything. Seems like a simple idea that really shouldn't be ruffling so many feathers lol. In games where someone else can't obviously hack your trophies it won't be a problem for example Kingdom Hearts vs World at War.  This way, the leaderboards can be "cleaned up" in a way that allows legit players that were unfortunate to remain, and still get rid of the cheaters.

 

This took so long to type out...thank god for copy/paste lol.

Yes, this is exactly what I had in mind upon creating the thread...honestly, I don't think anyone would even notice if the trophies suggested were white listed...haha...i do believe it's important to have this kind of dialogue though...thanks for taking the time to break the idea down more clearly...

[grimydawg___]

10 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

Again, I thought the goal of flags was to remove implausible times from the leaderboards...grimy has said on multiple occasions that the strikes are for games that have save files that people used long ago like fuel/socom/fifa,etc...I'm starting to wonder what is true and what isn't with regards to the flag system...

 

why would we question other games?...again, extrapolation...I'm only suggesting it for a list of trophies that has gamers playing as developers intended and had trophies ding as a result of being in the wrong place at the wring time...yes, the strikes would be removed for the tiny % of trophies that I'm suggesting, legit or not...I can live with that as I would prefer to side with legit gamers on this one...again, I'm convinced they're a majority with these types of trophies as I've rarely seen a lobby with 5 hackers and one legit gamer...it's always the other way around...my experiences are only limited to gta iv, v, and rdr though...perhaps on other games the opposite is true...

Yeah, that is why Sly implemented the three-flag rule for.  He's said that, and I'm trying to echo this.

13 minutes ago, Dav9834 said:

I don't think you understand the way it could be implemented, and that's why you think it would become a hack fest. 

 

We're not looking to undercover all hackers on psnprofiles with this. Only lighten the load on @grimydawg and the community. 

 

 

I'd rather not deal with games like BO2.  Until a system is in place, I'm going to have to continue to flag folks.

[madbuk]

19 minutes ago, Avatar_Of_Battle said:

 

So basically this, and by white listing games ahead of time we will be making the disputes for Player's C and D a lot shorter?

 

Player A - Legit player. Stats remain. (duh)
Player B - Proven filthy hacker. Removed. Includes people saying that a friend did it without them knowing...they just aren't as filthy.  
Player C - Says they entered a hacked lobby unknowingly. Telling the truth but unfortunately with/without proof it's a tough sell because who the hell knows. The game will be white listed for him so his stats no longer count, but there are no strikes against him and he remains on the leaderboard without the Blue H. 
Player D - Says they entered a hacked lobby unknowingly. Lying, but game is still white listed and their stats no longer count. No Blue H and no strike, but chances are they will get caught in other confirmed cases and eventually removed. Even if just the one time they did hack it wouldn't matter since they wouldn't be banned from the leaderboards anyways. Only time these guys should have a white listed game actually flagged is if evidence is found like posts confirming they used a downloaded save or the WBM found altered timestamps...in which case they kinda fall into Player B anyways. 

 

So players B, C, and D will have no stats in the games, but players C and D won't get strikes. This way player C gets to remain the legit player they are and D will likely be removed soon anyways. 

 

It's literally what we have now with the same 3 strike feature that will remove players B and D. It just gives players like C a chance to be a legit part of the board without having to hide anything. Seems like a simple idea that really shouldn't be ruffling so many feathers lol. In games where someone else can't obviously hack your trophies it won't be a problem for example Kingdom Hearts vs World at War.  This way, the leaderboards can be "cleaned up" in a way that allows legit players that were unfortunate to remain, and still get rid of the cheaters.

 

This took so long to type out...thank god for copy/paste lol.

Player C and D are exactly the same, there's no way to distinguish between the two.

[Avatar_Of_Battle]

3 minutes ago, ProfBambam55 said:

Yes, this is exactly what I had in mind upon creating the thread...honestly, I don't think anyone would even notice if the trophies suggested were white listed...haha...i do believe it's important to have this kind of dialogue though...thanks for taking the time to break the idea down more clearly...

 

The only problem with trophies being white listed, is idk if Sly can actually do that. I could see him being able to do it to an entire game, but idk about individual trophies. Then again I'm an not tech savvy in the slightest. It only took long because I'm working with 1 arm.  I wasn't entirely sure I was going to post here so I put it all in wordpad.

 

Just now, madbuk said:

Player C and D are exactly the same, there's no way to distinguish between the two.

 

I stated how they are different and how they both do not count in the leaderboards for certain instances. I will not get into a whine fest with you about this...even if I was typing with 2 hands. I've done enough repeating the same thing over and over (even in different ways) to show a difference on a dozen different forums to no avail. I'm not doing it on these forums.

[ProfBambam55]

Completely agree...did you understand the logic behind the rest of the idea?...or is it enough to say that because a minority of people hack trophies we should throw legit players in with them?...why should we give power to hackers like that?...you mentioned earlier how this idea could ruin the site...why should we let hackers ruin legit gamer's reputations?...are you really convinced that this site is full of hackers with legit gamers interspersed among them or am I misunderstanding your point?...

[ars]

3 minutes ago, madbuk said:

Player C and D are exactly the same, there's no way to distinguish between the two.

 

Correct. But he's also trying to say people who have a habbit to deliberately seek solutions like this would most likely keep doing so, so they'd eventually lose the leaderboard access through other games or stop doing it.

 

If any games would be whitelisted, the amount would be somewhere around three, five, stretching really far perhaps ten. This represents less than 0,2 per cent out of the overall title catalogue across the three platforms.

[Gibbo_0113]

This could work, but only if we knew exactly which games that it is possible for other players to pop trophies on your account. This is also very exploitable, we could all platinum Black ops 2 if it was white listed even though it has an unobtainable trophy.

 

Now I know what to do if this does happen to me, simply delete the user before the trophies sync. But from other peoples perspective yes i agree it is unfair and should be white listed. The CFW users are the real cheats anyway.

 

Question. Can modded lobbies pop campaign trophies?

 

 

[madbuk]

Just now, ProfBambam55 said:

Completely agree...did you understand the logic behind the rest of the idea?...or is it enough to say that because a minority of people hack trophies we should throw legit players in with them?...why should we give power to hackers like that?...you mentioned earlier how this idea could ruin the site...why should we let hackers ruin legit gamer's reputations?...are you really convinced that this site is full of hackers with legit gamers interspersed among them or am I misunderstanding your point?...

You're the one suggesting an idea that gives power to the hackers... Your idea of whitelisting a commonly hacked game will only cause a domino effect into making hacking trophies a legit strategy (however long that takes, it will eventually get to that point)

Legit gamers can delete those hacked trophies if they don't want them on their list. Or if it's too late to delete them, they can hide them. This is why we have a 3 strike rule in place.

[ProfBambam55]

How does it give them power they don't already have?...we're going around in circles here...

Edited June 6, 2017 by ProfBambam55

[Dav9834]

4 minutes ago, grimydawg said:

 

I'd rather not deal with games like BO2.  Until a system is in place, I'm going to have to continue to flag folks.

I agree, an automated system is the end result we're all looking for. What that system would look like may include something close to the proposal. 

 

3 minutes ago, Avatar_Of_Battle said:

 

The only problem with trophies being white listed, is idk if Sly can actually do that. I could see him being able to do it to an entire game, but idk about individual trophies. Then again I'm an not tech savvy in the slightest. 

 

It's possible

[ars]

1 minute ago, Gibbo_0113 said:

Question. Can modded lobbies pop campaign trophies?

 

No, the lobby host has no access to your game files or your console. What they can only do is manipulate your instance. In other words they could give your character in the multiplayer match infinite xp, health, money, things like that. The game would then trigger a system call for a trophy based on the xp or money, because that's what it's programmed to do.

[ProfBambam55]

I'm pretty sure they can pop all trophies in some games actually...campaign or not...was under the impression this was case for black op's 2 and waw...recently heard of this for mw2 as well...

[Avatar_Of_Battle]

4 minutes ago, Dav9834 said:

It's possible

 

In a technical world this is pretty much me lol.

 

 

But if it's possible then I suppose I don't care one way or the other. By getting rid of those white listed trophies in a profile Sly would also have to include the platinum. Again...refer to the picture above because idk how much work that would take lol.