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Suggestion - White List for Trophies / Games?


White Listing...  

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  1. 1. Should we have a white list for games like the ones described in the OP?

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Yep, think @ProfBambam55 has prepared a perfectly valid way to bypass this while keeping every party relatively happy. A good majority of readers go in favor of whitelisting in general. Honestly I haven't seen a good excuse not to implement something like this.

 

I wouldn't start deleting my account or hiding jack if I fell into the category, we own the games after all and should be able to play them the way we want, online included. We all know the leaderboards are being edited for benefit or another already and there have, and will be a number of impossible timestamps allowed in there.

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OK...my research into black ops 2 is done...conclusion: mixed thoughts...there have been a ton of mod menus for this game...hackers have had the ability to unlock people's trophies for years...this includes all dlc but only the dlc packs that a person owns...I've been playing it for about a week now online and have yet to land in a modded lobby...that being said, my suggestion is still to keep it on the white list due to the overwhelming evidence I've found of people with mods unlocking other people's trophies...editing this into the op...will continue to play blops 2 for the rest of the week and formally submit this white list idea over the weekend when I have a chance to go over the op one last time...

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 6/28/2017 at 1:34 AM, xL1ghT_By_D3s1gNx said:

OK...my research into black ops 2 is done...conclusion: mixed thoughts...there have been a ton of mod menus for this game...hackers have had the ability to unlock people's trophies for years...this includes all dlc but only the dlc packs that a person owns...I've been playing it for about a week now online and have yet to land in a modded lobby...that being said, my suggestion is still to keep it on the white list due to the overwhelming evidence I've found of people with mods unlocking other people's trophies...editing this into the op...will continue to play blops 2 for the rest of the week and formally submit this white list idea over the weekend when I have a chance to go over the op one last time...

 

You're a braver man than I; not in the least bit interested in being flagged/demonized. 

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It's not about being flagged or demonized here...it's all about finding a middle ground between the two extremes of "hey, we want clean leaderboards...f**k hackers"...and "help, I've been hacked"...progress is slow as I don't have many extended periods of spare time in any given day...it takes a lot of research, which I find somewhat interesting, so will put the effort in to see this idea through...I actually would appreciate some help but unfortunately haven't gotten any yet so am taking on the role of "that crazy guy who won't shut up about whitelisting already" for the time being...haha...

Edited by xL1ghT_By_D3s1gNx
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Nope, I'm with @Cleggworth on this one. I wouldn't care so much about if people were having things like terminator salvation etc but giving people essentially a free pass for getting free plats on some of the well known harder games to get platted? No way. I know the black ops 2 and waw ones happen without the knowledge of the person and that isn't fair, so maybe adding a 1+ or something to the number of flags like we do with Socom and Fuel and still having to hide, but I'm not on board for just allowing them to display it because then people will start actively hunting these lobbies. There's countless posts about these lobbies now so if you wanna play the older cods online with randoms make a sub account to do that. Even make a topic in the games that this happens on warning people about it so it appears at the side of the lists so they are warned maybe? It's a double edged sword really, I don't like that it happens to people without them doing anything but it still shouldn't be given the go ahead.

Edited by TOAST13TOA5T
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Think it's decisively funny people who object strongly choose to not read the posts made on the thread and make arguments that have been countered before. @MMDE's reasoning is the only really interesting one and I'd wish he'd elaborate. Because he's basically saying "random glitches" where you have have plausible doubt of a hack but can't prove it, flags get lifted (and trophy state stays on the leaderboards), but in this scenario a "constant glitch" where you can plausibly expect the account to not have hacked and it has been proven, it should now be censored.

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8 minutes ago, ars said:

Think it's decisively funny people who object strongly choose to not read the posts made on the thread and make arguments that have been countered before. @MMDE's reasoning is the only really interesting one and I'd wish he'd elaborate. Because he's basically saying "random glitches" where you have have plausible doubt of a hack but can't prove it, flags get lifted (and trophy state stays on the leaderboards), but in this scenario a "constant glitch" where you can plausibly expect the account to not have hacked and it has been proven, it should now be censored.

 

It should not be desirable to let someone hack your trophies in your game. You should do your best to avoid it, but if for some reason you end up getting screwed, I think it would be nice not having to hide the game or for it to count as an actual strike. Leaves the user less screwed I guess. :)

 

Anyway, the trophies were earned illegitimate, regardless of intent, and shouldn't count towards any stats. Not sure why you compare it to a glitch, because it's not a glitch. Glitches are fine, someone hacking your game is not. :| 

Edited by MMDE
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1 hour ago, MMDE said:

 

It should not be desirable to let someone hack your trophies in your game. You should do your best to avoid it, but if for some reason you end up getting screwed, I think it would be nice not having to hide the game or for it to count as an actual strike. Leaves the user less screwed I guess. :)

 

Anyway, the trophies were earned illegitimate, regardless of intent, and shouldn't count towards any stats. Not sure why you compare it to a glitch, because it's not a glitch. Glitches are fine, someone hacking your game is not. :| 

 

The thing is, your PSN account might get screwed by a third party as is the case here. Or it might be screwed by the first party as happened with multiple users' trophy database on PS4 release. Sometimes you can avoid it, sometimes you can't. History of PSNP shows this has taken into account.

 

You seem to forget what trophies are. Trophies are a simple software call in a database. Those calls happen for a number of reasons, they can be researched, and once the reason is reverse engineered or found, the call is known. That's it. There's not that much about "legitimacy", really. PSNP is a third party site that tracks PSN accounts created on Sony's servers, not yours, don't know how many times we've been through this. You, MMDE - or PSNP - is not an authority to state what is legitimate or illegitimate. All you can do is keep manipulating your local leaderboads - which is what PSNP has been doing all this time. That's why flags get lifted on edit: dubious trophies, rarity gets "corrected" (ie. made an imaginary number), and "impossible" timestamps get removed until someone proves, oops, they were possible after all.

 

All this thread is about is further manipulation of the leaderboards as has always been done, in order to not hackershame people without reason. The leaderboard aspect is as a matter of fact irrelevant, because the leaderboard is not legitimate, endorsed by Sony,anything. It's just a local, edited, leaderboard that tries to keep as balanced as possible. This discussion, again, is only about further acknowledging calling the hacker card on people who didn't hack gives PSNP a bad name. Not giving a flag since there was no reason to begin with.

 

I have great respect on your skills at exposing people who try to cheat the PSNP system on purpose, and have no quarrel with that. But you need to accept trophies (or PSNP accounts) don't work how you'd like to define them at any given time. PSNP didn't create them, isn't the owner of the accounts, nor has any authority over the accounts. As such, whitelisting games where PSNP can't manage the "legitimacy", is just a given unless you want to defame gamers. The discussion here is not a new thing, it just adds on the previous titles. People join multiplayer and their trophy database goes haywire, it gets whitelisted and that's the end of story. I don't understand why you need there to be special rules this time.

Edited by ars
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8 hours ago, ars said:

 

The thing is, your PSN account might get screwed by a third party as is the case here. Or it might be screwed by the first party as happened with multiple users' trophy database on PS4 release. Sometimes you can avoid it, sometimes you can't. History of PSNP shows this has taken into account.

 

You seem to forget what trophies are. Trophies are a simple software call in a database. Those calls happen for a number of reasons, they can be researched, and once the reason is reverse engineered or found, the call is known. That's it. There's not that much about "legitimacy", really. PSNP is a third party site that tracks PSN accounts created on Sony's servers, not yours, don't know how many times we've been through this. You, MMDE - or PSNP - is not an authority to state what is legitimate or illegitimate. All you can do is keep manipulating your local leaderboads - which is what PSNP has been doing all this time. That's why flags get lifted on edit: dubious trophies, rarity gets "corrected" (ie. made an imaginary number), and "impossible" timestamps get removed until someone proves, oops, they were possible after all.

 

All this thread is about is further manipulation of the leaderboards as has always been done, in order to not hackershame people without reason. The leaderboard aspect is as a matter of fact irrelevant, because the leaderboard is not legitimate, endorsed by Sony,anything. It's just a local, edited, leaderboard that tries to keep as balanced as possible. This discussion, again, is only about further acknowledging calling the hacker card on people who didn't hack gives PSNP a bad name. Not giving a flag since there was no reason to begin with.

 

I have great respect on your skills at exposing people who try to cheat the PSNP system on purpose, and have no quarrel with that. But you need to accept trophies (or PSNP accounts) don't work how you'd like to define them at any given time. PSNP didn't create them, isn't the owner of the accounts, nor has any authority over the accounts. As such, whitelisting games where PSNP can't manage the "legitimacy", is just a given unless you want to defame gamers. The discussion here is not a new thing, it just adds on the previous titles. People join multiplayer and their trophy database goes haywire, it gets whitelisted and that's the end of story. I don't understand why you need there to be special rules this time.

 

Not sure how any of this is against any of what I said, but hacked trophies are illegitimate and shouldn't count on the stats. So what I suggest is no punishment towards the user, but the trophies are illegitimately earned, so they shouldn't count. :S Not sure what issue you got with this.

 

The site is an authority on what it wants on the site or not.

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16 hours ago, TOAST13TOA5T said:

Nope, I'm with @Cleggworth on this one. I wouldn't care so much about if people were having things like terminator salvation etc but giving people essentially a free pass for getting free plats on some of the well known harder games to get platted? No way. I know the black ops 2 and waw ones happen without the knowledge of the person and that isn't fair, so maybe adding a 1+ or something to the number of flags like we do with Socom and Fuel and still having to hide, but I'm not on board for just allowing them to display it because then people will start actively hunting these lobbies. There's countless posts about these lobbies now so if you wanna play the older cods online with randoms make a sub account to do that. Even make a topic in the games that this happens on warning people about it so it appears at the side of the lists so they are warned maybe? It's a double edged sword really, I don't like that it happens to people without them doing anything but it still shouldn't be given the go ahead.

 

It doesn't matter how many threads you make warning people about it, white-listing would be more for those people who are randomly added by someone else to this website, then they get flagged because of what happened on one of these games so they sign up to PSNP to make a dispute thread. PSNProfiles might be tracking 3,186,724 PSN users right now, but only 215,471 people decided to sign up for the forums out of the amount of people who are being tracked by the site. PSNProfiles is only currently tracking around 4% of PSN accounts and only 0.27% of PSN members signed up for PSNProfiles and only around 7% of people who have their trophies on this website ended up signing up for the forums. Also, take into account that not every forum member is going to look at these threads, maybe only around 500-1000 people will see any threads that are made to "warn" people about these things and still, only a very small amount of the people who see those threads will take the warning on board. I find it funny because a lot of trophy hunters can be big hypocrites about things like this... I mean, they get mad that people can join lobbies on Black Ops II that unlock all their trophies for them, but they'd happily join a Minecraft world where every trophy is ready for the taking. I've hardly met any trophy hunters who added me for help with trophies that wouldn't accept using the easiest method that required them to do no work whatsoever. Trophy hunters will let themselves die in lobbies so the rest of the team can solo it, they'll be put into a glitch where all they need to do is stand there and do nothing, but when it comes to free trophies on Black Ops II, it's suddenly wrong because someone else decided to do it for them through no fault of their own. 

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44 minutes ago, MMDE said:

 

Not sure how any of this is against any of what I said, but hacked trophies are illegitimate and shouldn't count on the stats. So what I suggest is no punishment towards the user, but the trophies are illegitimately earned, so they shouldn't count. :S Not sure what issue you got with this.

 

The site is an authority on what it wants on the site or not.

 

I do accept the leaderboards are supposed to maintain at least an appearance of being clean, and as such people who merely unlocked their trophies in the database, ie. didn't play the game get removed. But this isn't the case here. It's just another situation where you can't really verify a thing or another and let it go, just as you did with RDR or any game that autopops trophies. So I'm not sure what issue you got with this. Why is there a specific scenario where these gamers need to be treated differently?

 

If you're suggesting there should be a general whitelist scenario where trophy set not fulfilling certain requirements gets removed, say, from the speedrun leaderboards or the account stats, I don't think I'd have reason to argue against it. That would be a fair, transparent system that applies to everyone and wouldn't have preferential treatment on a game by game basis.

 

The term "hacked trophies" rather distracts the discussion when there are so many accepted ways the trophies are popped, well, rather illegitimately.

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On 7/14/2017 at 7:26 AM, MMDE said:

The game will still show up on their profile, but the trophies for that game will not count towards the stats on their profile. This includes the trophy count etc, like if they got the platinum, that platinum isn't counted on their stats and they will have a lower PSN level etc because of it. :P

 

I have no idea how coding works, so this may be an impossible suggestion, but would there be a way to discredit only the illegitimate trophies from a user's overall stats?

 

In a game like GTAV, deleting your data without syncing, etc, won't work since everything is tied to the character. It would...really suck for someone who put in a ton of work getting all the gold medals and doing all the heists to then not have the legitimate work count for anything because someone hacked their level and popped one or two trophies. With other games the user could delete their profile to get rid of the hacked trophies, but as I understand it, GTAV is a special case where you'd just be completely screwed out of all your hard work and no way to undo it.

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6 minutes ago, GlennRhee said:

 

I have no idea how coding works, so this may be an impossible suggestion, but would there be a way to discredit only the illegitimate trophies from a user's overall stats?

 

In a game like GTAV, deleting your data without syncing, etc, won't work since everything is tied to the character. It would...really suck for someone who put in a ton of work getting all the gold medals and doing all the heists to then not have the legitimate work count for anything because someone hacked their level and popped one or two trophies. With other games the user could delete their profile to get rid of the hacked trophies, but as I understand it, GTAV is a special case where you'd just be completely screwed out of all your hard work and no way to undo it.

 

You can delete your GTA Online character, but that would remove all the stats from their profile and I don't think someone who has previously spent a lot of time working on money or platinum awards should have to get rid of it all because someone else increased their level for them. @grimydawg has been unflagging people who have the GTA Online issues as long as the date is in line with the time that it occurred. But I'll also say that I think GTA V has some degree of auto-syncing for trophies, because I had a friend who tried to do the online unsynced in 2015 because it takes a long time but while he was loading up GTA Online after getting a trophy, it synced for him without him actually choosing to sync it, so it's possible even by taking the measures that people recommend for other games, GTA V could just sync without you wanting to. 

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Busy so reply will be relatively brief...will expand later...if list is displayed then people might come across it try to flag it and then the birth of "why can't I flag this person?" and basically the rebirth of this topic...

 

hiding the whole list is an idea but what it comes down to is this...remove the hacked trophy(ies) from the leaderboards, yes?...what about the person who worked their ass off to earn their trophies (all of the games in the list have pretty difficult or time consuming trophies - looking at you awp; think of the person who may have done all the modes several times), has potential only one or two weird trophies for one of these games and has no other odd looking time stamps...why should their legit trophies be hidden?...is the site not for legit gamers anymore?...and what about if they want to do the dlc after, legit as always...they can't join gaming sessions if the game is hidden...

 

rather than make this a case by case ordeal, removing only the affected trophies seemed to make the most sense while working on this idea...even if only 1 of every 1000 actually earned them unintentionally it's worthwhile to implement imo...remember, they won't be on any of the site's leaderboards for these trophies meaning no 100% club, latest achievers, fastest achievers, rarity,  etc...nothing...all the proposal is trying to do is give benefit of the doubt where it is due, encourage legit gamers to game on, and create awareness to help future legit gamers...

 

As far as site authority, history has shown that it's position on this topic, flags, disputes and related stuff is quite ambiguous and I've pointed this out more than once and possibly within this thread with no response or clarification...rdr guide encouraging people to use hackers' work is a prime example of where it kind of doesn't make sense...and what about this?:

Implausible times remaining on the leaderboards...there are more cases than just this...this was easiest for me to link...

back to work...tbc'd...

Edited by xL1ghT_By_D3s1gNx
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1 hour ago, ars said:

 

I do accept the leaderboards are supposed to maintain at least an appearance of being clean, and as such people who merely unlocked their trophies in the database, ie. didn't play the game get removed. But this isn't the case here. It's just another situation where you can't really verify a thing or another and let it go, just as you did with RDR or any game that autopops trophies. So I'm not sure what issue you got with this. Why is there a specific scenario where these gamers need to be treated differently?

 

If you're suggesting there should be a general whitelist scenario where trophy set not fulfilling certain requirements gets removed, say, from the speedrun leaderboards or the account stats, I don't think I'd have reason to argue against it. That would be a fair, transparent system that applies to everyone and wouldn't have preferential treatment on a game by game basis.

 

The term "hacked trophies" rather distracts the discussion when there are so many accepted ways the trophies are popped, well, rather illegitimately.

 

Let's not pretend we aren't talking about hacked trophies. If it were glitched trophies, that would be a totally different story all together, no white listing would be required. We don't want these trophies on the site, so they shouldn't be counted towards anything, which would also discourage people to do it. The idea of the white list is to make it less inconvenient for those who do end up getting screwed over somehow or doesn't know better at the time etc, not just let it be okay.

1 hour ago, GlennRhee said:

 

I have no idea how coding works, so this may be an impossible suggestion, but would there be a way to discredit only the illegitimate trophies from a user's overall stats?

 

In a game like GTAV, deleting your data without syncing, etc, won't work since everything is tied to the character. It would...really suck for someone who put in a ton of work getting all the gold medals and doing all the heists to then not have the legitimate work count for anything because someone hacked their level and popped one or two trophies. With other games the user could delete their profile to get rid of the hacked trophies, but as I understand it, GTAV is a special case where you'd just be completely screwed out of all your hard work and no way to undo it.

 

It's of course fully possible, but it's a lot more work for Sly and for those who decide what shouldn't count and what should. Just so much cleaner to just cut the specific game off entirely from the profile. This also means it won't screw with their completion %, but I can totally see someone doing this for BO2, just for it not to count towards their completion %, because of the unobtainable trophy, but eh, whatever. -_-'

Edited by MMDE
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35 minutes ago, MMDE said:

Let's not pretend we aren't talking about hacked trophies. If it were glitched trophies, that would be a totally different story all together, no white listing would be required.

 

Wrong. Whitelisting "glitched" trophies - game or patch behavior, broken or hacked servers, save scumming, whatever to exploit game mechanics to force a trophy pop - is exactly there to prevent hackershaming. Allowing things like RDR in there sets a double standard where you are endorsed to abuse hacks in one game, and suddenly are punished for merely falling victim to one in another.

 

Whether "you" want them on the site is irrelevant, they are on the site. No one's going to pull them all off because keeping tabs on patch dates, server history or when exploits did or did not get fixed makes it impossible. All you can do is maintain the appearance of removing trophy hackers, while whitelisting is an attempt at keeping a balance between removing actual perpetrators from the leaderboards, and protecting people who did nothing more than played a game from hostile action.

 

Thus we truly are talking beyond the scope of hacked trophies so let's not pretend we aren't :)

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Just now, ars said:

 

Wrong. Whitelisting "glitched" trophies - game or patch behavior, broken or hacked servers, save scumming, whatever to exploit game mechanics to force a trophy pop - is exactly there to prevent hackershaming. Allowing things like RDR in there sets a double standard where you are endorsed to abuse hacks in one game, and suddenly are punished for merely falling victim to one in another.

 

Whether "you" want them on the site is irrelevant, they are on the site. No one's going to pull them all off because keeping tabs on patch dates, server history or when exploits did or did not get fixed makes it impossible. All you can do is maintain the appearance of removing trophy hackers, while whitelisting is an attempt at keeping a balance between removing actual perpetrators from the leaderboards, and protecting people who did nothing more than played a game from hostile action.

 

Thus we truly are talking beyond the scope of hacked trophies so let's not pretend we aren't :)

 

Why are you still calling it glitches? It's people hacking trophies. -_- We don't want that on the site.

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1 hour ago, DARKB1KE said:

It's not going to work because people are crying about trophies and trying to compare themselves on leaderboards.  Remove leaderboards and the problems are fixed. 

 

When one posts BS like this, of course one would  it wouldn't work....

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5 hours ago, grimydawg said:

 

When one posts BS like this, of course one would  it wouldn't work....

But you guys love spending hours going through people's trophies, lol. 
Isn't that the whole reason you have that section? 

You're welcome to call it BS, that's your opinion, but I believe I'm much smarter for not wasting time on grind.  When I can take a much more efficient route that doesn't affect anyone else.  It's my decision to make, not yours.  So you guys do you, I'll do me.  The elitism isn't a good look for this site, but that's just my opinion and I don't run the show here so I can't make the changes to make this a better community.  If I had some coding knowledge I would create a new site.   
 

Edited by DARKB1KE
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